March to Freedom nears

box_of_frogs · Post by **box_of_frogs** » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:58 pm

Yep, glad I don’t live there still to save on all the ‘ned’ nonsense.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:15 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:England is getting more and more extreme in it's right-wing views. If Scotland goes it's only a matter of time before England and Wales sleepwalks into an extreme right-wing government. It might not even require Scotland to leave for that to happen, but Scottish independence will make it happen much sooner.

The very reason Scotland want rid. They rarely get a UK government of choice and suffer the consequences.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:28 am

IanMcL wrote:The very reason Scotland want rid. They rarely get a UK government of choice and suffer the consequences.

I'm aware.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:33 am

Think Nicola has seriously misjudged this one.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:34 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Think Nicola has seriously misjudged this one.

Why?

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Think Nicola has seriously misjudged this one.

Doesn't she misjudge everything ? Why would she change her behaviour now

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:39 am

because she has been in power a long time, and it does sound suspiciously like she's listening to the SNP members, rather than the whole of the country.

She's relying on us being useless, rather than on actual reality (which considering her views on Brexit, is a bit of a strange place to be in!)

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:47 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:because she has been in power a long time, and it does sound suspiciously like she's listening to the SNP members, rather than the whole of the country.

She's relying on us being useless, rather than on actual reality (which considering her views on Brexit, is a bit of a strange place to be in!)

She assumed office in 2014 but she was elected FM with a manifesto promise to provide a second referendum if there was "material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014". She's literally keeping an election promise if her party gives Scotland a second referendum.

If you think that it is a bad idea politically then surely you must commend her for keeping a campaign promise that is not in her own best political interests.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:53 am

Oh, she's got to go for it, but she is 100% relying on us English being as thick as we were at Bannockburn and in the aftermath of Culloden.

You'd think we'd have learnt by now not to be total dicks, but the evidence does suggest otherwise.

i mean, look at this thread!

Its like the whose who of little englanders on here.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:16 pm

Sturgeon's move adds to the political chaos throughout this land. To have a referendum before the full impact of our leaving the EU occurs is short sighted for all of the UK, including Scotland. We don't know if departing the EU will have a positive or negative effect on any of the UK's countries. It's an opportunist action unconcerned with the damage that will be done.

I would be interested to know, noting the problems of the Irish border, how the Scotland-England border and Scotland Northern Ireland border would work. I know it's not the same but the biggest issues still need answers. Would there be a hard border? I can't see how there cannot be.

Bosna · Post by **Bosna** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, she's got to go for it, but she is 100% relying on us English being as thick as we were at Bannockburn and in the aftermath of Culloden.

You'd think we'd have learnt by now not to be total dicks, but the evidence does suggest otherwise.

i mean, look at this thread!

Its like the whose who of little englanders on here.

It's a strange situation in that another Conservative and Unionist Party government will result in the dissolution of the Union in the next 10 years. But, the Tories have the most to gain from independence. Our left-leaning friends north of the border are the best chance of a forward-thinking government in the UK and with Scotland gone the Tories can look forward to absolute domination.

I'd argue that any area north of the Watford Gap has an awful lot to lose should Scotland become independent.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:34 pm

We don't know if departing the EU will have a positive or negative effect on any of the UK's countries.

Thing is, we do, and they don't want to see it affect Scotland.

No doubt she is using the instability for her own political aims, but thats not new is it?

Problem is that the UK-EU relationship is complex, but its nothing like as complex as the Eng-Scotland one would be to unravel.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:36 pm

Bosna wrote:It's a strange situation in that another Conservative and Unionist Party government will result in the dissolution of the Union in the next 10 years. But, the Tories have the most to gain from independence. Our left-leaning friends north of the border are the best chance of a forward-thinking government in the UK and with Scotland gone the Tories can look forward to absolute domination.

I'd argue that any area north of the Watford Gap has an awful lot to lose should Scotland become independent.

100% this as well as my emotional attachment to #teamuk

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:46 pm

IanMcL wrote:Scottish oil built the M25 and the Channel Tunnel and paid for Thatcherwoman's unemployment strategy, to keep us all in line.

Scottish oil??? The coastline and surrounding sea are British, nobody said anything about giving you any water with your independence. As soon as your sand hits the sea that's your lot mate.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:44 pm

Hipper wrote:Sturgeon's move adds to the political chaos throughout this land. To have a referendum before the full impact of our leaving the EU occurs is short sighted for all of the UK, including Scotland. We don't know if departing the EU will have a positive or negative effect on any of the UK's countries. It's an opportunist action unconcerned with the damage that will be done.

I would be interested to know, noting the problems of the Irish border, how the Scotland-England border and Scotland Northern Ireland border would work. I know it's not the same but the biggest issues still need answers. Would there be a hard border? I can't see how there cannot be.

We will build a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it!!!

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Just close the access routes on the English side (M6 etc) for a couple of weeks to show the Scottish people what it could be like.
I don't think they would be so keen then.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:16 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Just close the access routes on the English side (M6 etc) for a couple of weeks to show the Scottish people what it could be like.
I don't think they would be so keen then.

Yeah. An act of war is a good way to win over a population.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:18 pm

No sign that anything has changed since the last referendum. SNP trying to spin the damning results of the pole to say... but we are not campaigning yet. Guess what neither are the Unionists. Just Scotland throwing money around at the cost of the rest of Britain as usual.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:19 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yeah. An act of war is a good way to win over a population.

An act of war??? Seriously?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:21 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:An act of war??? Seriously?

Yep. A blockade is an act of war. Has been for quite a while.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:21 pm

Turtles attitude to the SNP wanting to leave a Union will be exactly the same as the UK leaving a Union no doubt.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:25 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Turtles attitude to the SNP wanting to leave a Union will be exactly the same as the UK leaving a Union no doubt.

True. And this is why i always oppose divorces too.

Are you deliberately being stupid? Because you're really good at it.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yep. A blockade is an act of war. Has been for quite a while.

It's just letting them havery a taste of what it will be like when they put borders up after leaving.

Like a try before you buy scheme.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Good shot, you managed it without swearing too.

Wouldn't want you to appear to be a hypocrite would we

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:28 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Good shot, you managed it without swearing too.

Wouldn't want you to appear to be a hypocrite would we

It's pretty easy to avoid appearing to be a hypocrite by not being one.

There's nothing hypocritical about opposing the UK leaving the EU, and supporting Scotland leaving the UK because the UK is leaving the EU.

If you think it's hypocritical then please, use logic and reason to demonstrate the hypocrisy. I'll wait.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yep. A blockade is an act of war. Has been for quite a while.

What if carried out by extinction rebellion or BLM ?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:36 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:What if carried out by extinction rebellion or BLM ?

That would be civil disobedience. But sure, if you want to declare that an act of war then go right ahead. We'll see how the public reacts when the state treats protesters as enemy combatants.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:50 pm

Hipper wrote:Sturgeon's move adds to the political chaos throughout this land. To have a referendum before the full impact of our leaving the EU occurs is short sighted for all of the UK, including Scotland. We don't know if departing the EU will have a positive or negative effect on any of the UK's countries. It's an opportunist action unconcerned with the damage that will be done.

I would be interested to know, noting the problems of the Irish border, how the Scotland-England border and Scotland Northern Ireland border would work. I know it's not the same but the biggest issues still need answers. Would there be a hard border? I can't see how there cannot be.

I've seen this mentioned a few times but ultimately it's not really important. The issue with the Irish border is there's an agreement saying there can't be a hard border.

If Scotland/England required a hard border with checkpoints, etc. (which it probably would if we went full Brexit) then so be it. It would be inconvenient but there's nothing to stop it.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:09 pm

aggi wrote:I've seen this mentioned a few times but ultimately it's not really important. The issue with the Irish border is there's an agreement saying there can't be a hard border.

If Scotland/England required a hard border with checkpoints, etc. (which it probably would if we went full Brexit) then so be it. It would be inconvenient but there's nothing to stop it.

Now this link might be wrong, but feel free to correct me if it is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's nothing stopping a hard border if the information is correct in the link.
They're sensibly trying to avoid a hard border because they think that the hardliners will start fighting again like they were originally.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:30 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Oh, she's got to go for it, but she is 100% relying on us English being as thick as we were at Bannockburn and in the aftermath of Culloden.

You'd think we'd have learnt by now not to be total dicks, but the evidence does suggest otherwise.

i mean, look at this thread!

Its like the whose who of little englanders on here.

Who's*

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yep. A blockade is an act of war. Has been for quite a while.

Do you know what a blockade is? (Hint: No, you don't).

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:47 pm

thatdberight wrote:Do you know what a blockade is? (Hint: No, you don't).

I think this is what a blockade is. Am I wrong?

It's kinda weird for you to just assume i didn't know what a blockade was. I'd love to know how you reached that conclusion.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:11 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Now this link might be wrong, but feel free to correct me if it is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's nothing stopping a hard border if the information is correct in the link.
They're sensibly trying to avoid a hard border because they think that the hardliners will start fighting again like they were originally.

I've seen differing interpretations. Others have suggested that border checkpoints would be "security installations" and so would breach it. I guess no-one will know for certain unless it was tested in court and I can't imagine anyone would want to do that.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:29 pm

aggi wrote:I've seen differing interpretations. Others have suggested that border checkpoints would be "security installations" and so would breach it. I guess no-one will know for certain unless it was tested in court and I can't imagine anyone would want to do that.

Exactly, it's down to interpretation.

A border crossing is entirely different manned guard posts at regular intervals.

It could be tested and I suspect border crossings would be allowed.
The good Friday agreement can also be altered.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:32 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:We will build a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it!!!

Will they pay for me to replace my beech hedge, it's got a bit of rogue shrub in it that's taken over one corner. If they have a problem with the exchange rate they can pay in cocaine.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:54 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think this is what a blockade is. Am I wrong?

It's kinda weird for you to just assume i didn't know what a blockade was. I'd love to know how you reached that conclusion.

A blockade (in the sense of it being an act of war) would be marine. Closing a land border (which was was the suggestion) is not an act of war.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:55 pm

thatdberight wrote:A blockade (in the sense of it being an act of war) would be marine. Closing a land border (which was was the suggestion) is not an act of war.

Blockades happen on land too.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Blockades happen on land too.

They do. But saying to Scotland, "You can't use the M6" when it has 6,160 miles (don't hold me to that) of coastline isn't much of a blockade. Even by your dictionary definition which you flaunted before, closing the border wouldn't represent "sealing off" Scotland. It might be an unfriendly act or even a hostile (with a small 'h') act, but not an act of war. That's how I knew you didn't understand it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:41 pm

thatdberight wrote:They do. But saying to Scotland, "You can't use the M6" when it has 6,160 miles (don't hold me to that) of coastline isn't much of a blockade. Even by your dictionary definition which you flaunted before, closing the border wouldn't represent "sealing off" Scotland. It might be an unfriendly act or even a hostile (with a small 'h') act, but not an act of war. That's how I knew you didn't understand it.

A blockade doesn't have to be a complete blockade of a nations borders for it to be a blockade.

I do understand it. You repeating that i don't understand it doesn't make you right.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:49 pm

Being blocked from using the M6 is hardly a punishment, or threat.

The place is a nightmare to be a lot of the time.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:57 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:A blockade doesn't have to be a complete blockade of a nations borders for it to be a blockade.

I do understand it. You repeating that i don't understand it doesn't make you right.

You're the one who defined blockade as "sealed off", not me. Your inability to say, "OK. Maybe just this once I went too far claiming that sealing a land border was an act of war." is what makes you special. Never change. Please.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:04 pm

thatdberight wrote:You're the one who defined blockade as "sealed off", not me. Your inability to say, "OK. Maybe just this once I went too far claiming that sealing a land border was an act of war." is what makes you special. Never change. Please.

Yes. Seal off a border. Not all borders. quickenthetempo was talking about sealing off the England-Scotland border. So was I. So were you. None of us were talking about sealing off the entire country. Just one border.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:12 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Yes. Seal off a border. Not all borders. quickenthetempo was talking about sealing off the England-Scotland border. So was I. So were you. None of us were talking about sealing off the entire country. Just one border.

That's what I mean. Don't ever change. When you're wrong, just pretend you were right. But don't listen to me.
You can also not listen to this expert:
https://www.mei.edu/publications/blocka ... t-meanings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Or don't notice how Turkey hasn't committed an act of war against Armenia here
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PO-AFET_ET(2007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)385526_EN.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC9qXm6uvhAhWs1eAKHXzjAoo4HhAWMAZ6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw1osTejPfDyN4GcyrJEuzc9
Saudi Arabia and Qatar. No act of war there either.

As you were.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:42 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:It's just letting them havery a taste of what it will be like when they put borders up after leaving.

Like a try before you buy scheme.

The claymores will be sharpened, in readiness! The last lot tried twice and gave up.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:16 pm

IanMcL wrote:The claymores will be sharpened, in readiness! The last lot tried twice and gave up.

Gave up what?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:51 am

thatdberight wrote:That's what I mean. Don't ever change. When you're wrong, just pretend you were right. But don't listen to me.
You can also not listen to this expert:
https://www.mei.edu/publications/blocka ... t-meanings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Or don't notice how Turkey hasn't committed an act of war against Armenia here
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PO-AFET_ET(2007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)385526_EN.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiC9qXm6uvhAhWs1eAKHXzjAoo4HhAWMAZ6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw1osTejPfDyN4GcyrJEuzc9
Saudi Arabia and Qatar. No act of war there either.

As you were.

From your source:
"A blockade is totally different. A blockade is closing to international commerce by military force the coast of another entity. A blockade prevents third parties from undertaking normal commercial activity. A blockade is an act of war rather than merely exercising one’s own prerogatives."

Two things, yes is specifies "coast", and also it calls it an act of war.

From the Wikipedia page on "Blockade"
"While most blockades historically took place at sea, blockade is still used on land to prevent someone coming into a certain area."

So, we've established that a blockade is an act of war (according to a link you provide), and according to Wikipedia article on blockades, a blockade can occur on land, albeit much less frequently.

I'm not pretending i'm right. I'm just right.

Also, just because one country doesn't react to a blockade by declaring war, they still have casus belli because a blockade is an act of war.

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:00 am

It also says 'by military force', but that was never mentioned, was it?

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:14 am

Imploding Turtle wrote: A blockade is closing to international commerce by military force the coast of another entity. A blockade prevents third parties from undertaking normal commercial activity.

Try to learn to comprehend what you read and quote. If England were to close the border with Scotland in the hypothetical situation under discussion, it would not be preventing "third parties from undertaking normal commercial activity". Those third parties would have no over-riding right to transit through one independent country into another: that's entirely different from a port with national and then international waters as the means of entry where a third party does have rights that would be infringed. That land border is England's, or Scotland's, to open or close as it sees fit. Otherwise the entire section (which you omitted to quote and presumably omitted to understand) about nations having the right to secure their borders would be wrong. It's not. You are. That's why you're now citing a Wikipedia article

which conflates the acts of nations at war with the irrelevant use of the term, to describe civil disobedience, as it does, giving Greenham Common etc as its examples.

Keep going...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:32 am

thatdberight wrote:Try to learn to comprehend what you read and quote. If England were to close the border with Scotland in the hypothetical situation under discussion, it would not be preventing "third parties from undertaking normal commercial activity". Those third parties would have no over-riding right to transit through one independent country into another: that's entirely different from a port with national and then international waters as the means of entry where a third party does have rights that would be infringed. That land border is England's, or Scotland's, to open or close as it sees fit. Otherwise the entire section (which you omitted to quote and presumably omitted to understand) about nations having the right to secure their borders would be wrong. It's not. You are. That's why you're now citing a Wikipedia article which conflates the acts of nations at war with the irrelevant use of the term, to describe civil disobedience, as it does, giving Greenham Common etc as its examples.

Keep going...

Scotland isn't an independent country. If the UK government decided to blockade Scotland then it would be a hostile act, and as we've already established that a blockade is an act of war then that's what this would be. It just wouldn't be a war between two independent countries. I Believe there's a term when two parts of one country go to war. What's it called again? Civic war? Sigil war? I forget, but it's not exactly peace.

Venkys4eva · Post by **Venkys4eva** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:43 am

Just give Scotland another independence referendum but this time allow the whole UK to vote! That way Jimmy Krankie will get what she wants and so will the rest of us, happy days