March to Freedom nears

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HatfieldClaret
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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by HatfieldClaret » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:01 am

I've no problem with Scots wanting independence, but why weren't Scots who live in the rest of the UK allowed to vote on it ?

The criteria was that one could only vote if they actually lived in Scotland. So an EU national living in Scotland could vote but a born and bred Scot couldn't vote if they lived in Cumbria. Afraid that Scots in England may vote against? After all, UK nationals living in France/Spain were allowed to vote in the EU referendum.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:09 am

If Brexit ever does happen and we leave the EU and then the bitters vote for Independence will the jocks in England who oppose tories & brexit and are all for Scotland being independent remain in England ?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:14 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:I've no problem with Scots wanting independence, but why weren't Scots who live in the rest of the UK allowed to vote on it ?

The criteria was that one could only vote if they actually lived in Scotland. So an EU national living in Scotland could vote but a born and bred Scot couldn't vote if they lived in Cumbria. Afraid that Scots in England may vote against? After all, UK nationals living in France/Spain were allowed to vote in the EU referendum.
It's an interesting and fair question. And yes, i've no doubt that it was in part about their likely voting preference. Much like how EU citizens living in the UK were barred from voting in the EU referendum despite being allowed to vote in the Independence referendum if they lived in Scotland.

One of the problems with allowing Scots in other parts of the UK to vote is probably logistical. There's no such thing as Scottish citizenship, so how do you determine someone's eligibility to vote based on their Scottishness without exploding the cost of the referendum? How far back can Scottishness go for eligibility to vote? Do you allow someone with one Scottish parent to vote? What if they've never set foot in Scotland but have Scottish ancestry that would make them eligible for Scottish citizenship were it a thing? But then you need to answer the question of what would constitute Scottish citizenship in the first place before anyone's eligibility can even be established. There's a whole lot more practical and legal questions that can take many years to get legislated that would need to be answered. And it wouldn't just be about Scottish people living not in Scotland, you'd have to answer them for non-Scottish people living in Scotland and establish their eligibility to vote too. All for one referendum.

Or they can just check where you live.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by thatdberight » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:19 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Scotland isn't an independent country. If the UK government decided to blockade Scotland then it would be a hostile act, and as we've already established that a blockade is an act of war then that's what this would be. It just wouldn't be a war between two independent countries. I Believe there's a term when two parts of one country go to war. What's it called again? Civic war? Sigil war? I forget, but it's not exactly peace.
Since you are congenitally incapable of taking in information and understanding it, I appreciate this gets difficult for you. But, no, I've shown you quite clearly that it would not be a blockade to close off the land border with another country - only your misunderstanding of 'blockade' allows you to think this. Apart from a throwaway comment (with no examples given) on a Wikipedia :roll: page, you've shown nothing to support your theory. I know you don't really believe in borders, but they are a real thing in the law that governs nations' behaviour to each other and no country is obligated to keep open its border with another. Since you started this whole thing by talking about an "act of war" (by definition must be between independent nations), you'll forgive me if I don't follow you down your latest attempt to misdirect with your new-fangled "act of civil war" legal theory.

You make me laugh. That's not a good thing. Laughing at someone else doesn't make me a good person.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:22 am

thatdberight wrote:Since you are congenitally incapable of taking in information and understanding it, I appreciate this gets difficult for you. But, no, I've shown you quite clearly that it would not be a blockade to close off the land border with another country - only your misunderstanding of 'blockade' allows you to think this. Apart from a throwaway comment (with no examples given) on a Wikipedia :roll: page, you've shown nothing to support your theory. I know you don't really believe in borders, but they are a real thing in the law that governs nations' behaviour to each other and no country is obligated to keep open its border with another. Since you started this whole thing by talking about an "act of war" (by definition must be between independent nations), you'll forgive me if I don't follow you down your latest attempt to misdirect with your new-fangled "act of civil war" legal theory.

You make me laugh. That's not a good thing. Laughing at someone else doesn't make me a good person.
This whole argument started from a throwaway comment. So your attempt to criticise my argument based on a wikipedia article saying what you've arbitrarily decided is a "throwaway comment", that land blockades are a thing, when my argument is that land blockades are a thing, and that blockades are an act of war ergo a land blockade is an act of war, is a bit stupid.

#NoExamplesGiven

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:28 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This whole argument started from a throwaway comment.
It did and could have been easily put to bed many posts ago if you'd just admitted you made a mistake and overegged the pudding with the language you used about act of war

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:39 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:It did and could have been easily put to bed many posts ago if you'd just admitted you made a mistake and overegged the pudding with the language you used about act of war
But i didn't make a mistake. quickenthetempo described a blockade by England on the Scottish border. A blockade is an act of war. beright claimed that blockades only happened at sea. I showed him he was wrong. He repeated the same argument a bunch of times and also made a bunch of comments about me, and i provided more evidence that supported the fact that blockades happen on land, and are an act of war.

I didn't think quickenthetempo was serious with his suggestion, and my reply was in jest, but it was factually accurate and i stand by those facts i've presented.

I am objectively correct, so why am I the one to blame for this?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by thatdberight » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:41 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:This whole argument started from a throwaway comment. So your attempt to criticise my argument based on a wikipedia article saying what you've arbitrarily decided is a "throwaway comment", that land blockades are a thing, when my argument is that land blockades are a thing, and that blockades are an act of war ergo a land blockade is an act of war, is a bit stupid.

#NoExamplesGiven

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what distinguishes Soviet-era West Berlin from, say Scotland? Take your time. I'll give you a clue. It's big and it's wet and West Berlin doesn't have 6,160 miles of land beside it. Familiarising myself with the nuances of South Africa's responsibilities to Lesotho seemed to much like hard work when, in the specific that you categorised as an "act of war", it's irrelevant. I expect more flailing of arms and ranting about irrelevancies.

PS. Another source for you. I know it's not Grade A credible like Wikipedia, but I'm making the best of what I've got.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/blockade/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Blockade as used in International law refers to a belligerent's prevention of entry to or departure from an enemy's ports by stationing ships to intercept vessels trying to enter or leave those ports."

http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law ... 31690-e252" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"A blockade is a belligerent operation to prevent vessels and/or aircraft of all nations, enemy and neutral ( Neutrality in Naval Warfare ), from entering or exiting specified ports, airports, or coastal areas belonging to, occupied by, or under the control of an enemy nation. The purpose of establishing a blockade is to deny the enemy the use of enemy and neutral vessels or aircraft to transport personnel and goods to or from enemy territory ( Transit of Goods over Foreign Territory )..."

But you are "objectively correct". Of course you are. Is there a "pats head" emoji?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:52 am

thatdberight wrote:And what distinguishes Soviet-era West Berlin from, say Scotland? Take your time. I'll give you a clue. It's big and it's wet and West Berlin doesn't have 6,160 miles of land beside it. Familiarising myself with the nuances of South Africa's responsibilities to Lesotho seemed to much like hard work when, in the specific that you categorised as an "act of war", it's irrelevant. I expect more flailing of arms and ranting about irrelevancies.

So now your argument is back to being that it can't be a blockade on the Scottish land border because Scotland has other points of access. And yet we have already established that a blockade doesn't have to be a blockade of an entire country, only a part of it.

And to think you're the one accusing me of refusing to understand and accept information.

How many arguments have you tried now?
In order:
It's not a blockade because it's on land.
It's not a blockade because some it's not a complete blockade.
It's not an act of war because some other countries didn't declare war.
West Berlin was a blockade but Scotland has coasts so Scotland wouldn't be blockaded.

So with your most recent argument you've finally accepted that land blockades happen, but we're back to getting you to understand that blockades don't have to be of an entire country. :roll:


Edit:
Oh, and now we're back to arguing that blockades only happen at sea. :lol:
thatdberight wrote:
PS. Another source for you. I know it's not Grade A credible like Wikipedia, but I'm making the best of what I've got.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/blockade/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Blockade as used in International law refers to a belligerent's prevention of entry to or departure from an enemy's ports by stationing ships to intercept vessels trying to enter or leave those ports."

http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law ... 31690-e252" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"A blockade is a belligerent operation to prevent vessels and/or aircraft of all nations, enemy and neutral ( Neutrality in Naval Warfare ), from entering or exiting specified ports, airports, or coastal areas belonging to, occupied by, or under the control of an enemy nation. The purpose of establishing a blockade is to deny the enemy the use of enemy and neutral vessels or aircraft to transport personnel and goods to or from enemy territory ( Transit of Goods over Foreign Territory )..."

But you are "objectively correct". Of course you are. Is there a "pats head" emoji?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by thatdberight » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:57 am

No.

I'll say this really really slowly for you. It won't help but I'll do it anyway.

It wouldn't be an "act of war" because no rights would have been violated. Third parties would still be free to transit through international spaces and Scotland's national waters to Scotland and vice versa. It's that simple.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:59 am

thatdberight wrote:No.

I'll say this really really slowly for you. It won't help but I'll do it anyway.

It wouldn't be an "act of war" because no rights would have been violated. Third parties would still be free to transit through international spaces and Scotland's national waters to Scotland and vice versa. It's that simple.
So you're settling on the "not the whole nation" argument. Well, at least you've finally decided how exactly it is you're going to be wrong. That's progress.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am

HatfieldClaret wrote: After all, UK nationals living in France/Spain were allowed to vote in the EU referendum.
That's not correct. In fact there was an unsuccessful legal challenge about this. There were over 700,000 UK nationals who were not allowed to vote even though the outcome had / has a significant bearing on their future.
Bizarrely some of those 700, 000 would have voted brexit, even though it would effectively leave them disenfranchised since they would still be UK citizens with (therefore) no voting rights in the EU, and - due to the unsuccessful court case - none in the UK.
Your general point is correct though.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:01 am

nil_desperandum wrote:That's not correct. In fact there was an unsuccessful legal challenge about this. There were over 700,000 UK nationals who were not allowed to vote even though the outcome had / has a significant bearing on their future.
Bizarrely some of those 700, 000 would have voted brexit, even though it would effectively leave them disenfranchised since they would still be UK citizens with (therefore) no voting rights in the EU, and - due to the unsuccessful court case - none in the UK.
Your general point is correct though.
I think it was that if you lived outside the UK for long enough then you couldn't vote in it.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by thatdberight » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:03 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:So you're settling on the "not the whole nation" argument. Well, at least you've finally decided how exactly it is you're going to be wrong. That's progress.
Have you found any credible sources for closing a border being a blockade or an obligation under international law to keep a land border open? Do waste your time if you wish.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:03 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think it was that if you lived outside the UK for long enough then you couldn't vote in it.
15 years.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:04 am

nil_desperandum wrote:15 years.
Sounds like an act of war to me.
These 3 users liked this post: thatdberight nil_desperandum GodIsADeeJay81

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Hipper » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:19 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:23 am

I love that sketch.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by IanMcL » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:15 am

.....
Last edited by IanMcL on Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by IanMcL » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:17 am

Venkys4eva wrote:Just give Scotland another independence referendum but this time allow the whole UK to vote! That way Jimmy Krankie will get what she wants and so will the rest of us, happy days :mrgreen:
That's the kind of comment which would get the whole world voting to discontinue any interaction with England.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:27 am

IanMcL wrote:That's the kind of comment which would get the whole world voting to discontinue any interaction with England.
Doubt it.

Mind you they haven't had to put up with you lot making out that you're oppressed/enslaved/ we are a bunch of tossers....

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Braindead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:44 am

Is this stupid little wizened witch still banging on about leaving the UK?
She based her entire political career on Scotland leaving the UK, got her big chance in the form of an official Referendum and totally blew it.
She is an absolute weapon.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:56 am

Braindead wrote:Is this stupid little wizened witch still banging on about leaving the UK?
She based her entire political career on Scotland leaving the UK, got her big chance in the form of an official Referendum and totally blew it.
She is an absolute weapon.
How did she blow it?

Also, Westminster made promises to the Scottish people in exchange for a no vote, and then proceeded to break those promises. The case for a 2nd IndyRef is legitimate and clear. (Not to mention being elected on the promise of a 2nd vote in the event the rest of the UK tried to drag Scotland out fo the EU against its will. Which is happening).

All i keep reason from people like you are shitty arguments or non-arguments. "wizened witch" and "absolute weapon" are not arguments. "got her big chance in the form of an official referendum and totally blew it" and yet i predict you can't explain what she did to blow it.
This user liked this post: IanMcL

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:03 am

Broke promises?

What did they break?
They've been devolving powers back to Holyrood, slowly admittedly but it's been happening.

Did they make a promise not to leave the EU?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Braindead » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:09 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:How did she blow it?

Also, Westminster made promises to the Scottish people in exchange for a no vote, and then proceeded to break those promises. The case for a 2nd IndyRef is legitimate and clear. (Not to mention being elected on the promise of a 2nd vote in the event the rest of the UK tried to drag Scotland out fo the EU against its will. Which is happening).

All i keep reason from people like you are shitty arguments or non-arguments. "wizened witch" and "absolute weapon" are not arguments. "got her big chance in the form of an official referendum and totally blew it" and yet i predict you can't explain what she did to blow it.
Easy.
She was the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, who's primary role is/was the Independence of Scotland from the tyrannical rule of nasty England. She finally got her big chance in the form of a Referendum and was roundly and convincingly defeated.

She therefore blew it in my opinion.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:10 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Broke promises?

What did they break?
They've been devolving powers back to Holyrood, slowly admittedly but it's been happening.

Did they make a promise not to leave the EU?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2kEIeT67BU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:11 am

Amusingly Farage managed to get what he wanted initially, a referendum that leave won, he's done what Sturgeon couldn't do.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:12 am

Braindead wrote:Easy.
She was the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, who's primary role is/was the Independence of Scotland from the tyrannical rule of nasty England. She finally got her big chance in the form of a Referendum and was roundly and convincingly defeated.

She therefore blew it in my opinion.

Whoops. I'll let you figure out your mistake for yourself. I think it's the only way you people will learn.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:15 am

Cheers, I'll watch the rest of it later, but I get the gist of what he's saying and fair enough, promises were made and broken.

He's clearly not happy with either Labour or Tory though from what I've seen.

The bit that I always find odd is the continued complaint that Scotland didn't get the government it voted for.
That's the same for a lot of the country, it isn't unique to Scotland, yet they're the ones who complain the most.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:20 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Cheers, I'll watch the rest of it later, but I get the gist of what he's saying and fair enough, promises were made and broken.

He's clearly not happy with either Labour or Tory though from what I've seen.

The bit that I always find odd is the continued complaint that Scotland didn't get the government it voted for.
That's the same for a lot of the country, it isn't unique to Scotland, yet they're the ones who complain the most.

I think it's just that Scotland consistently votes to the left, and always gets a right-wing government. Even the one labour period they got was a more right-wing version of Labour than what kind of Labour party there was before and since.

It makes pretty good sense to me that if Scotland's political leaning is so contrary to what repeatedly gets elected to Westminster then independence would be a reasonable option.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:23 am

Has Scotland always voted towards the left?
Or is it a relatively recent thing?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by IanMcL » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:25 am

Braindead wrote:Easy.
She was the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, who's primary role is/was the Independence of Scotland from the tyrannical rule of nasty England. She finally got her big chance in the form of a Referendum and was roundly and convincingly defeated.

She therefore blew it in my opinion.
Alec Salmond was the leader, at that time.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:26 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Has Scotland always voted towards the left?
Or is it a relatively recent thing?
I don't know how far back it goes but i know since the 70s they'd never voted for the Tories, and the guy in the video says "last 50 years".

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:28 am

So the labour government before Thatcher was acceptable but Blair's mob wasn't because they were apparently just Tories in disguise, or Tory lite?

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by IanMcL » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:29 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Has Scotland always voted towards the left?
Or is it a relatively recent thing?
Always.
Occasional protest but it has a clannish mentality, where you help each other beat the elements , or risk hardship/death. That lends itself to a social way of life, rather than an 'I'm alright Jack', 'Look after number one' outlook, often portrayed by Conservative Government.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:32 am

Scotland has pretty wide ranging tax powers under its devolved parliament.

Cynics (no one like me obviously!) would say that the SNP are quite happy to blame Westminister for quite a lot of stuff which they could sort out themselves by raising the taxes they control.

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by nil_desperandum » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:14 pm

Braindead wrote:Easy.
She was the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party, who's primary role is/was the Independence of Scotland from the tyrannical rule of nasty England. She finally got her big chance in the form of a Referendum and was roundly and convincingly defeated.

She therefore blew it in my opinion.
Usually better to check facts and figures before making bold statements, otherwise it rather defeats your argument.
As has already been pointed out it was Salmond not Sturgeon who was the leader, and also, it was an unexpectedly close result, and, indeed, in the days running up to the vote it looked for a while as though the SNP might get a surprise victory. It has often been claimed that only Gordon Brown's intervention got Cameron over the line, otherwise he may well have lost. This should have been a warning to him for the future, but of course, he was arrogant enough to believe that he could win in 2016 as well, (without putting the legwork in).

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:13 pm

And with the recent investigations and charges everyone knows what the great leader of the SNP was more interested in than leading his bitter party

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:18 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:And with the recent investigations and charges everyone knows what the great leader of the SNP was more interested in than leading his bitter party
I've got to hand it to you if anyone's an authority to talk about bitter people then judging by your posting history on here it is definitely you. I'd also look to you for guidance on idiocy as well

claretonthecoast1882
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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I've got to hand it to you if anyone's an authority to talk about bitter people then judging by your posting history on here it is definitely you. I'd also look to you for guidance on idiocy as well

This from someone who thinks devils advocate means to act a ****

Think I will pass on any lessons from you

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Re: March to Freedom nears

Post by tiger76 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:29 pm

And everyone thinks it's just brexit she has an issue with,looks like Nicola will go for IndyRef 2 come what may,well i never. :roll:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-48064922

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