Pope or Hart?

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TVC15
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby TVC15 » Wed May 01, 2019 11:07 am

If Pope really wants to go (and I think he probably does) sell to Bournemouth for £15m plus Boruc in part exchange as think he would be a good no 2 as he has experience and seems “happy” to be no 2 - allowing Hart to leave.

We have ended up in this situation with our keepers due to a unique set of circumstances and a lot of bad luck in terms of injuries. But we are not a club who can carry 3 or even 2 keepers who are of this quality and / or on big money.

We need to find the next Nick Pope / understudy type keeper who is happy to develop at the club learning from Tom and Mercer or go down the Paul Robinson type route and get an experienced keeper who is happy to be no 2 keeper but able to step in if needed.

The current situation we have is just not sustainable for us or the keepers...and wouldn’t be at most if not all clubs.

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KRBFC
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby KRBFC » Wed May 01, 2019 11:11 am

TVC15 wrote:If Pope really wants to go (and I think he probably does) sell to Bournemouth for £15m plus Boruc in part exchange as think he would be a good no 2 as he has experience and seems “happy” to be no 2 - allowing Hart to leave.

We have ended up in this situation with our keepers due to a unique set of circumstances and a lot of bad luck in terms of injuries. But we are not a club who can carry 3 or even 2 keepers who are of this quality and / or on big money.

We need to find the next Nick Pope / understudy type keeper who is happy to develop at the club learning from Tom and Mercer or go down the Paul Robinson type route and get an experienced keeper who is happy to be no 2 keeper but able to step in if needed.

The current situation we have is just not sustainable for us or the keepers...and wouldn’t be at most if not all clubs.

I think Lindegaard is fine as number 2 to Heaton, with a younger as you put it ''next Nick Pope'' to come in to eventually replace Heaton in the long term. The wages freed up from the departure of Pope and Hart along with the potential £15-20M would go along way to strengthening the first 11 with probably only 3 first 11 players needed.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Pstotto » Wed May 01, 2019 11:12 am

Pope has been forced to want to go by the politics.

Let's start a campaign KEEP HOPE KEEP POPE.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby houseboy » Wed May 01, 2019 12:27 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:Jeez! You really are an utter blow hard, at times.

Why - exactly? And why do you use Americanisms (Jeez) and terms I've never heard of (blow hard)? Reply to a post intelligibly or don't bother. Your post has no logical argument, doesn't counter mine in any way and shows a distinct lack of capability. Just replying to a post with an insult in some odd colloquialisms doesn't show you up in a good light. I'm sure you are better than this - file under must try harder.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby LoveCurryPies » Wed May 01, 2019 12:29 pm

Easy....Pope.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Long Time Lurker » Wed May 01, 2019 1:18 pm

TVC15 wrote:If Pope really wants to go (and I think he probably does) sell to Bournemouth for £15m plus Boruc in part exchange as think he would be a good no 2 as he has experience and seems “happy” to be no 2 - allowing Hart to leave.

We have ended up in this situation with our keepers due to a unique set of circumstances and a lot of bad luck in terms of injuries. But we are not a club who can carry 3 or even 2 keepers who are of this quality and / or on big money.

We need to find the next Nick Pope / understudy type keeper who is happy to develop at the club learning from Tom and Mercer or go down the Paul Robinson type route and get an experienced keeper who is happy to be no 2 keeper but able to step in if needed.

The current situation we have is just not sustainable for us or the keepers...and wouldn’t be at most if not all clubs.


It's not a matter of carrying two keepers it is a matter of needing two keepers. Surely the injuries to Heaton and Pope have made that abundantly clear. If we have Heaton and a make weight then we would be betting the farm on nothing happening to Heaton, because if it did we would be waving goodbye to the Premier League.

Unless you are happy to bet our presence in the league on Lindegaard, Legzdins or a young player who is new to the team. We were very lucky Wood and Barnes stayed healthy and we got away with the risky Vokes fiasco.

Other teams can get by with a lesser quality second keeper, because their game is more attuned to playing on the front foot. We build from a solid defence so we don't have the luxury of being able to accommodate a weaker keeper.

I would also question selling Pope to Bournemouth, one of our direct competitors for a measly £10m to £15m. The Boruc part exchange is immaterial, because he will be available on a free transfer and he is no better than Lindegaard. In fact we would probably be doing Bournemouth a big favour taking Boruc off their hands.

The idea of weakening ourselves and making Bournemouth significantly stronger for the sake of a relatively small sum of cash doesn't strike me as wise. It would also be hugely annoying watching Pope's monetary value rise up and up over the course of his career. His follow up transfer could be like watching a bad episode of Bullseye, here is the transfer fee you could have had.

We don't even know if the new bloke and our new statistic based recruitment can be trusted to spend any incoming cash to good effect or not. After sitting back and putting our feet up in the last window the Summer window is something of a "you've had 8 months to get ready, show us what you can do, trial run".

Keep Pope and loan Hart out for wages plus a fee or sell/trade him. Another year and he will be out of contract and in a position to sign for the first season of Inter Miami Beckham watcha ma call it. I think that would suit him down to the ground and it is my biggest fear about keeping him.

Namely, that Hart will leave on a free in 2020 and we will be left with Heaton and have to spend far more than £10m to £15m to bring in a far worse keeper than Nick a year down the line - given that keeper prices are rising quickly.

If by some humongous stretch of strategic buffoonery we sell Pope in the next window ( considering that his value is depressed because of reduced visibility, injury concerns and he is a long way off his peak value ) it definitely shouldn't be to any of our immediate competitors.

We should be loathe to sell any of our players to an immediate competitor given the detailed level of knowledge they have about our players, framework and tactics.

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Spike
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Spike » Wed May 01, 2019 1:20 pm

Pope surprised you need to ask!
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Lord Beamish
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Lord Beamish » Wed May 01, 2019 1:57 pm

houseboy wrote:Why - exactly? And why do you use Americanisms (Jeez) and terms I've never heard of (blow hard)? Reply to a post intelligibly or don't bother. Your post has no logical argument, doesn't counter mine in any way and shows a distinct lack of capability. Just replying to a post with an insult in some odd colloquialisms doesn't show you up in a good light. I'm sure you are better than this - file under must try harder.

As if to prove my point.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby TVC15 » Wed May 01, 2019 2:03 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:It's not a matter of carrying two keepers it is a matter of needing two keepers. Surely the injuries to Heaton and Pope have made that abundantly clear. If we have Heaton and a make weight then we would be betting the farm on nothing happening to Heaton, because if it did we would be waving goodbye to the Premier League.

Unless you are happy to bet our presence in the league on Lindegaard, Legzdins or a young player who is new to the team. We were very lucky Wood and Barnes stayed healthy and we got away with the risky Vokes fiasco.

Other teams can get by with a lesser quality second keeper, because their game is more attuned to playing on the front foot. We build from a solid defence so we don't have the luxury of being able to accommodate a weaker keeper.

I would also question selling Pope to Bournemouth, one of our direct competitors for a measly £10m to £15m. The Boruc part exchange is immaterial, because he will be available on a free transfer and he is no better than Lindegaard. In fact we would probably be doing Bournemouth a big favour taking Boruc off their hands.

The idea of weakening ourselves and making Bournemouth significantly stronger for the sake of a relatively small sum of cash doesn't strike me as wise. It would also be hugely annoying watching Pope's monetary value rise up and up over the course of his career. His follow up transfer could be like watching a bad episode of Bullseye, here is the transfer fee you could have had.

We don't even know if the new bloke and our new statistic based recruitment can be trusted to spend any incoming cash to good effect or not. After sitting back and putting our feet up in the last window the Summer window is something of a "you've had 8 months to get ready, show us what you can do, trial run".

Keep Pope and loan Hart out for wages plus a fee or sell/trade him. Another year and he will be out of contract and in a position to sign for the first season of Inter Miami Beckham watcha ma call it. I think that would suit him down to the ground and it is my biggest fear about keeping him.

Namely, that Hart will leave on a free in 2020 and we will be left with Heaton and have to spend far more than £10m to £15m to bring in a far worse keeper than Nick a year down the line - given that keeper prices are rising quickly.

If by some humongous stretch of strategic buffoonery we sell Pope in the next window ( considering that his value is depressed because of reduced visibility, injury concerns and he is a long way off his peak value ) it definitely shouldn't be to any of our immediate competitors.

We should be loathe to sell any of our players to an immediate competitor given the detailed level of knowledge they have about our players, framework and tactics.


I suggested Bournemouth because I know they are going to be on the look out for a new keeper. I also think Boruc if available is a decent no 2.
I don’t want Pope to leave - I think he is our best keeper. But I think he will want to leave and it’s perfectly understandable if he does.
If he says he wants to leave and we are happy to sell then I don’t think we have the luxury of choosing where he goes...if the likes of Spurs are interested then yes it’s better he goes there than one of our rivals but as said I mentioned them because their keeper has had a poor season and Howe has dropped him a few times.
Re your other points I never said that I wanted Lindegaard to be our no 2...I already said we would need to find a new keeper as our no 2.
If we get an offer of between £10m and £15m for Pope then I think we will sell...if Pope wants to leave. Losing Pope and Hart frees up the best part of £5m a year on wages and potentially brings in a big fee. Have you seen anything in our history which suggests that Burnley would not sell under these circumstances ?
I don’t think this is anything like the Vokes situation. I was massively against this and I still think this was a stupid and unnecessary risk to take and we got lucky with it. We should have held firm and waited till the summer - even if that meant getting a couple of million less.
To lose Hart and Pope can be planned for. I expect both of these players will want to leave and would not be surprised if the club are happy to accommodate this given the what it could mean financially and the money it provides to strengthen other parts of the team.

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houseboy
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby houseboy » Wed May 01, 2019 3:33 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:As if to prove my point.

I'd stay off the drugs mate. If you have a difficulty communicating you should get help. First you send gobbledygook insults then you appear to have no ability to answer a simple question.

'As if to prove my point' is not any kind of intelligent answer is it, seeing as how you were never really making a point in the first place.

Let me explain: posting an unintelligible insult in response to a post is not making a point, it is showing a complete lack of ability to string together a logical statement in opposition to the original post. Now, if you disagree with the original post the intelligent thing to do would be to post an answer that lays out why you disagree with said post, not just put together words that just insult and in no way explain exactly why you disagreed with it. In fact I doubt if 'jeez' is actually a word at all, it is just a noise that, mainly, Americans make because they are too vocally lazy to say 'Jesus', and to see it written down is even more ridiculous.

You will note that I have not in any way insulted you, just questioned, with good reason, your ability to conduct an argument without resorting to personal insult and very bad vocabulary.

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Lord Beamish
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Lord Beamish » Wed May 01, 2019 4:26 pm

houseboy wrote:I'd stay off the drugs mate. If you have a difficulty communicating you should get help. First you send gobbledygook insults then you appear to have no ability to answer a simple question.

'As if to prove my point' is not any kind of intelligent answer is it, seeing as how you were never really making a point in the first place.

Let me explain: posting an unintelligible insult in response to a post is not making a point, it is showing a complete lack of ability to string together a logical statement in opposition to the original post. Now, if you disagree with the original post the intelligent thing to do would be to post an answer that lays out why you disagree with said post, not just put together words that just insult and in no way explain exactly why you disagreed with it. In fact I doubt if 'jeez' is actually a word at all, it is just a noise that, mainly, Americans make because they are too vocally lazy to say 'Jesus', and to see it written down is even more ridiculous.

You will note that I have not in any way insulted you, just questioned, with good reason, your ability to conduct an argument without resorting to personal insult and very bad vocabulary.

I got about as far as the second sentence before almost falling into a coma.
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bob-the-scutter
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby bob-the-scutter » Wed May 01, 2019 5:24 pm

Even if he does $hit it the woods......................POPE!

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Dark Cloud
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Dark Cloud » Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 pm

Pope. Only an utter half wit would suggest keeping Hart and letting Pope go. (Although that's what may ultimately be forced on us if Pope demands first team footy and somebody else is prepared to offer it)

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Bosscat » Wed May 01, 2019 6:29 pm

Pope no contest
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby houseboy » Sat May 04, 2019 10:16 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:I got about as far as the second sentence before almost falling into a coma.

That just about says it all I think.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby IanMcL » Sat May 04, 2019 10:30 pm

Pope...he controls the pen area and relieves so much pressure....and he catches it!
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Blackrod » Sat May 04, 2019 11:20 pm

Hart came in and did a job for us. He is also a good keeper. Heaton is better for us and the way we play as is Pope. Things can change quickly as both Heaton and Pope know. It will depend on what the keeper wants. Pope could be here for years but he may not want to risk not dislodging Heaton in the short term and the club will be thinking of cash.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby tim_noone » Sun May 05, 2019 12:19 am

TVC15 wrote:I suggested Bournemouth because I know they are going to be on the look out for a new keeper. I also think Boruc if available is a decent no 2.
I don’t want Pope to leave - I think he is our best keeper. But I think he will want to leave and it’s perfectly understandable if he does.
If he says he wants to leave and we are happy to sell then I don’t think we have the luxury of choosing where he goes...if the likes of Spurs are interested then yes it’s better he goes there than one of our rivals but as said I mentioned them because their keeper has had a poor season and Howe has dropped him a few times.
Re your other points I never said that I wanted Lindegaard to be our no 2...I already said we would need to find a new keeper as our no 2.
If we get an offer of between £10m and £15m for Pope then I think we will sell...if Pope wants to leave. Losing Pope and Hart frees up the best part of £5m a year on wages and potentially brings in a big fee. Have you seen anything in our history which suggests that Burnley would not sell under these circumstances ?
I don’t think this is anything like the Vokes situation. I was massively against this and I still think this was a stupid and unnecessary risk to take and we got lucky with it. We should have held firm and waited till the summer - even if that meant getting a couple of million less.
To lose Hart and Pope can be planned for. I expect both of these players will want to leave and would not be surprised if the club are happy to accommodate this given the what it could mean financially and the money it provides to strengthen other parts of the team.

So.....you know Bournemouth are on the Lookout for a new Keeper? Are you sure?

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RidgeClaret
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby RidgeClaret » Sun May 05, 2019 2:07 am

Pope was the main reason we finished 7th last season. Jonathon Walters even said so on Sky last night. So the question should be Hart or Heaton for me?

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby RidgeClaret » Sun May 05, 2019 2:13 am

IanMcL wrote:Pope...he controls the pen area and relieves so much pressure....and he catches it!

Exactly so.

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TVC15
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby TVC15 » Sun May 05, 2019 7:29 am

tim_noone wrote:So.....you know Bournemouth are on the Lookout for a new Keeper? Are you sure?


Every dog has its day !!
Howe is still after a new keeper - he wouldn’t drop his first 2 keepers for this game and rotate them as much as he has all season if he was happy with them

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby NickPopeFan » Mon May 06, 2019 12:44 pm

RidgeClaret wrote:Pope was the main reason we finished 7th last season. Jonathon Walters even said so on Sky last night. So the question should be Hart or Heaton for me?

Agree

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Murger
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Murger » Mon May 06, 2019 1:14 pm

Pope should be our number 1 next season.

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby RidgeClaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:48 pm

Brilliant article on BBC Sport about our 3 England goalkeepers.
Best stat - Nick Pope made 52 catches last season compared to Joe Hart 3 and Tom Heaton 8 this season!!!

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Joe14 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:18 pm

Heaton but I’m totally cool if Dyche is looking at this thread though and thinking “The wise ones have spoken.... Pope it is” ;)

He seems to know what’s he’s doing* 8-)

*T&C’s apply (Hart blip)

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby ZizkovClaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm

I honestly would not be surprised if Spurs were to send LLoris on his way and come knocking for one of ours as competition for their keeper slot

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Chester Perry » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:24 pm

that BBC article with a vote on it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48388820

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby RidgeClaret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:06 pm

56% Pope so far

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Vegas Claret » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:08 pm

given Pope just signing the long term deal he must be confident of claiming the number 1 spot sooner rather than later

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Paul Waine
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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby Paul Waine » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:38 pm

Nick Pope, 2017/18 season, 34 appearances, 34 goals conceded (excl ogs). expected goals 44.26, expected goals prevented 10.26.

Those are some stats, 10.26 goals prevented v Tom Heaton (2018/19) -1.66 v Joe Hart -3.68.

Vote closed, Nick Pope (as above) 56%, Tom Heaton 38%. Joe Hart 6%.

We've got to hope that the teams bidding for Joe Hart for next season don't look at all the stats!

UTC

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Re: Pope or Hart?

Postby rob63 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:35 am

This is a rhetorical question.....right?


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