The Death Penalty.

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Blackrod
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Wed May 08, 2019 6:41 pm

aggi wrote:Coincidentally I watched a show last night looking into the problems that the US are having with the death penalty at the moment.

It was largely about the logistics of the executions. Unsurprisingly doctors refuse to be involved so the procedure is carried out with incorrectly trained personnel. America doesn't produce the drugs themselves and can't source them so is having to make do with using a sedative rather than anaesthetic (and the choice of drugs themselves has also been made without input from doctors).

Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the death penalty, are those who are pro-death penalty happy for it to be carried out if it can't be done "humanely"? Are you in agreement with a civilised country torturing people to death? Would you be in agreement if the sentence was to be carried out by stoning for instance?
Hanging doesn’t need drugs and has been carried out effectively for the best part of a century. It’s quick and not that costly.

Spijed
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Spijed » Wed May 08, 2019 7:03 pm

Darnhill Claret wrote:Police choosing to ignore evidence that might clear their prime suspect, not for the first time. AC12 needs more funding.
Sadly some people don't care if the wrong person is sometimes executed!
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SGr
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by SGr » Wed May 08, 2019 7:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:If there are votes in it, then certain politicians certainly will
Back-benchers for sure. Some just for the media spotlight. But this opportunism is always to be expected.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed May 08, 2019 7:08 pm

Somethingfishy wrote:Can you really not see what i am getting at?? The guy was fleeing from the police in a car known to have been used for abducting people that day..and he hides up a tree. Hardly the actions of an innocent man. Yes I agree due cause has to be seen to be done but I will ask again. Do you think he is not guilty? Do you think he will be found not guilty? Do you think the police have got the wrong man? I would say the odds are well in favour of a guilty verdict. It is just the reality of the situation. The evidence is stacked against him. I would say the vast majority of the people commenting are thinking the same.
He’s probably guilty, that’s not the point. He hasn’t been proven guilty and everyone is entitled to be tried before being condemned. Those wishing death on a bloke without knowing if he is guilty are not are hideous people.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 8:04 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:People like you are the reason we don't have the death penalty. If you decided who had the right to life then I imagine hundreds, if not thousands of people would be sentenced to death every year.

I'm sure the list would include all rapists, child abusers and murderers or am I wrong?

Then you'd have to also include people already in prison for those crimes and of course anyone who had committed those crimes but had served their time and been released.

Then, as you got oldier and angrier and even more bigoted you'd turn your attention to others who outrage you, probably muslims or immigrants.

This is why people like you, with extremely low intelligence, are kept away from making any decisions that affect our civilised way of life.

Lets have the facts . I suggested this monster once convicted is put to sleep. You come back at me in some weird attack as though I am in the wrong. And make a knob of yourself with lots of unfounded assumptions about me.

Who is the idiot here? Or does me not liking this monster living after the crimes he has commited offend you personally?

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 8:16 pm

Rileybobs wrote:He’s probably guilty, that’s not the point. He hasn’t been proven guilty and everyone is entitled to be tried before being condemned. Those wishing death on a bloke without knowing if he is guilty are not are hideous people.
Nobody is wishing him dead before he is convicted. All us in the know ( what we call the real world ) are suggesting once convicted (and he will be )he deserves death. While all the mushrooms are making arguments that don't exist.

You should be embarassed defending these crimes. All of you .

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed May 08, 2019 8:18 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Nobody is wishing him dead before he is convicted. All us in the know ( what we call the real world ) are suggesting once convicted (and he will be )he deserves death. While all the mushrooms are making arguments that don't exist.

You should be embarassed defending these crimes. All of you .
I challenge you to find a post where someone has defended “these crimes”.
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Wed May 08, 2019 8:20 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Lets have the facts . I suggested this monster once convicted is put to sleep. You come back at me in some weird attack as though I am in the wrong. And make a knob of yourself with lots of unfounded assumptions about me.

Who is the idiot here? Or does me not liking this monster living after the crimes he has commited offend you personally?

This isn't a direct reply to your post, more an enquiry, but what to you is an unacceptable percentage of people being wrongfully executed due to wrongful convictions?
Out of 100 executions approximately how many of them being innocent would it take for you to change your mind on the death penalty?

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 8:21 pm

1 . We are not discussing the system. It is hypothetical about what he deserves.
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Spijed » Wed May 08, 2019 8:29 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:1 . We are not discussing the system. It is hypothetical about what he deserves.
But you, like everyone else has failed to provide an answer the problem of wrongful convictions.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 8:47 pm

When was the last wrongful conviction in the uk that led to ths death penalty. We are in a good position to create a new system. With grading for crimes and only the worst punishable by death. Your Sutcliffe , Brady and possibly Mcann level of crime and certainty . Multiple offences with vast amounts of evidence.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed May 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Nobody is wishing him dead before he is convicted. All us in the know ( what we call the real world ) are suggesting once convicted (and he will be )he deserves death. While all the mushrooms are making arguments that don't exist.

You should be embarassed defending these crimes. All of you .
This is your OP

'Wouldn't be justice for this animal. I didn't realise until reading this tonight how close to us this monster had got . Vile vile monster and he should be put down.'[/]

You wished him dead before he has been found guilty of committing a crime. It's in black and white, you can't deny it.

And you should be embarrassed suggesting that a single person has defended these crimes - it takes a special kind of dumb to arrive at that conclusion.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 9:08 pm

Rileybobs wrote:This is your OP

'Wouldn't be justice for this animal. I didn't realise until reading this tonight how close to us this monster had got . Vile vile monster and he should be put down.'[/]

You wished him dead before he has been found guilty of committing a crime. It's in black and white, you can't deny it.

And you should be embarrassed suggesting that a single person has defended these crimes - it takes a special kind of dumb to arrive at that conclusion.


We all know he is guilty. If he is not I will write you a cheque for a thousand pounds. You are more offended by me disgusted by the crime than the crime itself.

Shame on you!

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed May 08, 2019 9:17 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:We all know he is guilty. If he is not I will write you a cheque for a thousand pounds. You are more offended by me disgusted by the crime than the crime itself.

Shame on you!
Haha. Keep digging.

I don’t really doubt his guilt, I’m just not willing to execute him before his guilt has been proven. In fact I’m not willing to execute him in any case because taking the life of another person is an utterly abhorrent thing to do.

And you’re just making up more bull sh!t in your last sentence because you’re incapable of understanding the point that a number of people on this thread have made to you.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 10:14 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Haha.
Got to HaHa.

And realised I am talking to a child.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed May 08, 2019 10:27 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:Got to HaHa.

And realised I am talking to a child.
Nice cop out. You could have argued your point but never mind. Let’s just pretend you won.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 10:52 pm

It is hypothetical. For when he is found guilty.

And there you go again against the fitting punishment

He deserves to die once convicted!.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Rileybobs » Wed May 08, 2019 10:56 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:It is hypothetical. For when he is found guilty.

And there you go again against the fitting punishment

He deserves to die once convicted!.
If that’s how you feel perhaps you should live in a country where the punishment of crimes is more aligned with your unhinged views.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Wed May 08, 2019 11:05 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:It is hypothetical. For when he is found guilty.

And there you go again against the fitting punishment

He deserves to die once convicted!.

I remember when this kind of extremism was the stuff of mockery.

Absolute bloodlust.
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Pstotto » Wed May 08, 2019 11:13 pm

I think the Australia model is right. Have a prison ship, send them to St. Helena on a one -way ticket and just dump them there, no cost to the taxpayer other than the shipment.

Dump them and leave them with a naval exclusion zone, so no boat or plane can ever pick them up. No water, no food, no shelter, no clothes.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 11:24 pm

Pstotto wrote:I think the Australia model is right. Have a prison ship, send them to St. Helena on a one -way ticket and just dump them there, no cost to the taxpayer other than the shipment.

Dump them and leave them with a naval exclusion zone, so no boat or plane can ever pick them up. No water, no food, no shelter, no clothes.
How long till they beat us at cricket ?

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Squarepusher » Wed May 08, 2019 11:26 pm

Bfcboyo wrote: He deserves to die once convicted!.
And what about if he's already dead when he's exonerated?

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Wed May 08, 2019 11:26 pm

Test User wrote:I remember when this kind of extremism was the stuff of mockery.

Absolute bloodlust.
I will remind you of all this when the detail comes out.

What about the victims with lives in tatters.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Darnhill Claret » Wed May 08, 2019 11:37 pm

Michael Stone, possibly the biggest miscarriage of justice in the last twenty years, and in America there are dozens, probably.

Damo
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Damo » Wed May 08, 2019 11:41 pm

This is always a weird subject.
Especially with the victims being so close to home.
On one hand, I'm glad we moved on from the death penalty.
The most humane response to anything like this is to not inflict the ultimate sentence on anyone or anything.
On the other hand though, it's really emotive. Anyone looking through the eyes of the victim, or the victims friends, family etc, would be full of sh*t if they said they wouldn't want the person who committed these crimes to be scorched from the earth.
To come on a football message board and try and take some kind of moral high ground when discussing the matter though is about as desperate as attention seeking gets
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Damo » Wed May 08, 2019 11:42 pm

Test User wrote:I remember when this kind of extremism was the stuff of mockery.

Absolute bloodlust.
Have you been banned again Charlie?
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aggi
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by aggi » Wed May 08, 2019 11:56 pm

Blackrod wrote:Hanging doesn’t need drugs and has been carried out effectively for the best part of a century. It’s quick and not that costly.
The trouble with hanging is that if you get it wrong you either decapitate or strangle the victim, neither of which are that humane.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by aggi » Thu May 09, 2019 12:00 am

Darnhill Claret wrote:Michael Stone, possibly the biggest miscarriage of justice in the last twenty years, and in America there are dozens, probably.
In America the last study I saw was that 1 in 25 of those convicted of the death sentence were innocent.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu May 09, 2019 12:25 am

That is why it should be saved for a level of crime with absolute clarification they are guilty.
Hence the Bradys and Sutcliffes etc , the death penalty would be used. Certain people are not fit for this world criminally , be it the heinous crimes against helpless victims of a serial rapist or the mass genocide atrocities of a tyrant leader.

The OP was in shock and disgust at what this man has done potentially and a statement in shock on what I believe he deserves if it is correct.

It has caused a ridiculous reaction , people more disgusted in my horror than the crimes comitted.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu May 09, 2019 8:18 am

Damo wrote:Have you been banned again Charlie?

Can't be, turtle denied having another account on here only recently as well as saying he isn't a liar.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu May 09, 2019 9:23 am

Bfcboyo wrote:That is why it should be saved for a level of crime with absolute clarification they are guilty.
Hence the Bradys and Sutcliffes etc , the death penalty would be used. Certain people are not fit for this world criminally , be it the heinous crimes against helpless victims of a serial rapist or the mass genocide atrocities of a tyrant leader.

The OP was in shock and disgust at what this man has done potentially and a statement in shock on what I believe he deserves if it is correct.

It has caused a ridiculous reaction , people more disgusted in my horror than the crimes comitted.
Just moving past the debate on whether in some circumstances the death penalty is warranted your post above is still to simplistic and therefore problematic.

When you say the Bradys and Sutcliffes then at some point there has to be a line drawn where a crime or criminal becomes eligible/accountable to receive the death penalty and that this has to be written in law. Who makes the moral distinction and boundary where two similar crimes can fall on different sides of the line and one person is sentenced to death and the other isn't

Its easy to look at the extremes but who decides where the line is and how do we put that clearly into our legal system. How do we safeguard that once the standard is set for the death penalty the focus then isn't shifted on to the heinous crimes that don't legal carry the death penalty and that emotive media stories suddenly don't influence the public wanting that line moved further and further from the extremes

There is a real danger that what you first describe as the Sutcliffes and Bradys overtime becomes very different and then we are back in the realm of risking executing innocent people. Its easy to read a report of the most vile offender and wish death on him/her but it really isn't and can never be that simple in the real world and we potentially will be aking our way down a very slippery slope

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 10:54 am

aggi wrote:In America the last study I saw was that 1 in 25 of those convicted of the death sentence were innocent.

You should read about Troy Davis. He was convicted, sentenced to death for murder in 1991. There was evidence of police coercion of witnesses and despite seven of them recanting their testimonies, and of the remaining two one of them was another suspect in the murder, they still executed him.

They really do enjoy killing each other in America. Either in schools, theatres, shopping malls, churches or through the courts.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 11:01 am

Bfcboyo wrote:That is why it should be saved for a level of crime with absolute clarification they are guilty.
Hence the Bradys and Sutcliffes etc , the death penalty would be used. Certain people are not fit for this world criminally , be it the heinous crimes against helpless victims of a serial rapist or the mass genocide atrocities of a tyrant leader.

The OP was in shock and disgust at what this man has done potentially and a statement in shock on what I believe he deserves if it is correct.

It has caused a ridiculous reaction , people more disgusted in my horror than the crimes comitted.

As disgusting as he is, this pervert isn't trying to turn this country into one which slaughters its own people. Our justice system can and will deal with him.
Not you though. In a country with some sort of freedom of speech your brand of evil can only be dealt with by arguing against your sadistic ideas.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Thu May 09, 2019 11:46 am

aggi wrote:The trouble with hanging is that if you get it wrong you either decapitate or strangle the victim, neither of which are that humane.
You don’t get it wrong. It’s a craft. If you read Pierrepoint’s Autobiography you will see how many went wrong since the turn of the century. The only issue I see with this is ensuring that the list of hangmen remain anonymous which would be more difficult in this era of social media. I’m sure there would be no shortage of volunteers with suitable credentials.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 11:48 am

Blackrod wrote:I’m sure there would be no shortage of volunteers with suitable credentials.

There are evidently a lot of sick minds out there who are only not killing people because they would get into trouble for it. They'd love a legal means to do it.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Thu May 09, 2019 12:09 pm

Test User wrote:There are evidently a lot of sick minds out there who are only not killing people because they would get into trouble for it. They'd love a legal means to do it.
Ridiculous comment

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Blackrod wrote:Ridiculous comment
In a ridiculous thread.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by aggi » Thu May 09, 2019 12:23 pm

Bfcboyo wrote:That is why it should be saved for a level of crime with absolute clarification they are guilty.
Hence the Bradys and Sutcliffes etc , the death penalty would be used. Certain people are not fit for this world criminally , be it the heinous crimes against helpless victims of a serial rapist or the mass genocide atrocities of a tyrant leader.

The OP was in shock and disgust at what this man has done potentially and a statement in shock on what I believe he deserves if it is correct.

It has caused a ridiculous reaction , people more disgusted in my horror than the crimes comitted.
How would this work? Would it be part of the court case (not guilty, guilty, really guilty) or would it be some form of committee?

At the moment people are only meant to be found guilty if it is beyond reasonable doubt so surely the death penalty could be applied to all convictions.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by AndrewJB » Thu May 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Blackrod wrote:Hanging doesn’t need drugs and has been carried out effectively for the best part of a century. It’s quick and not that costly.
Capital punishment is actually very costly. More so than putting someone away for life:

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thinking about the death penalty, and punishment in general is a little like staring at the anus of society. It's sometimes necessary, but mostly just morbidly fascinating. A more important conversation about law and order could be had around how to reduce crime, and how to increase apprehension rates.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Thu May 09, 2019 12:54 pm

In reference to the article above :
1. Actually quite lacking in detail.
2. Written to support an ‘against death penalty’ viewpoint
3. Doesn’t include hanging.
4. Looks as though mostly legal costs which is an issue but the US system is different to ours and convicts spend years and years on death row which I don’t support.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Thu May 09, 2019 1:01 pm

Just to add some balance the death penalty will not stop all crime and it may not deter some sickos but it may make someone think twice about wielding a weapon or committing murder. Once it has happened once in the current era it will serve as a deterrent and the victims will have had justice. As a contrast I think corporal punishment could be suitable for some sexual predators such as castration. They won’t be committing the same act again but it’s whether they can ever serve any useful purpose in society. I am repulsed by the thought that such a predator can ever be released back into society and certainly when the public don’t know where they are.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 1:02 pm

Blackrod wrote:2. Written to support an ‘against death penalty’ viewpoint
Not that the rest of your post isn't ridiculous, but this line stands head and shoulders above the rest of it.

It's a pretty nifty way of avoiding having to deal with contradictory information. Just claim that the information is invalid because it comes from people who have used information like that in the past to reach conclusions that more up-to-date information continues to support.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Test User » Thu May 09, 2019 1:06 pm

Blackrod wrote:Just to add some balance the death penalty will not stop all crime and it may not deter some sickos but it may make someone think twice about wielding a weapon or committing murder. Once it has happened once in the current era it will serve as a deterrent and the victims will have had justice. As a contrast I think corporal punishment could be suitable for some sexual predators such as castration. They won’t be committing the same act again but it’s whether they can ever serve any useful purpose in society. I am repulsed by the thought that such a predator can ever be released back into society and certainly when the public don’t know where they are.
Do western countries with the death penalty benefit from lower crime than us? The US has 4 times the rate of intentional homicides than we do.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by SGr » Thu May 09, 2019 1:46 pm

It doesn’t work as a deterrent. People commit crime generally on the belief they will evade prosecution.

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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by AndrewJB » Thu May 09, 2019 2:04 pm

Blackrod wrote:In reference to the article above :
1. Actually quite lacking in detail.
2. Written to support an ‘against death penalty’ viewpoint
3. Doesn’t include hanging.
4. Looks as though mostly legal costs which is an issue but the US system is different to ours and convicts spend years and years on death row which I don’t support.
Edited to add the link: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-it-take- ... -death-row" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In this link a judge explains the US judicial process (using the state of Alabama as an example) - why inmates spend so long on death row. And then other answers. In a nutshell it is to attempt to prevent miscarriages of justice (the death penalty being irreversible). Even with this in place, a number of executions in the US have been questioned. If we brought back capital punishment I doubt we'd see it used very speedily, and without as many rights to appeal as it was before for much the same reason. To address your main point in the second post, I don't think there's a lot of evidence to suggest capital punishment works as a deterrent. It doesn't for the vast majority of people (certainly not for me, and I'd imagine you're the same), who instead manage to keep themselves from murdering other people due to their moral or ethical stance on the subject. I think if you examine the statistics, you'll find few correlations between greater application of the death penalty and fewer murders committed, in fact for some time during the 1920s I believe the opposite happened.

I think the fact that virtually all modern progressive nations around the world have abolished it, whereas autocratic regimes have tended to retain it says it all in terms of evidence.

claretnproud
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by claretnproud » Thu May 09, 2019 2:27 pm

Surely these people/animals should be gelded. Boll-cks off then sort out the sentencing.

Blackrod
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Blackrod » Thu May 09, 2019 3:14 pm

Test User wrote:Do western countries with the death penalty benefit from lower crime than us? The US has 4 times the rate of intentional homicides than we do.
Capital Punishment isn’t used in all US States.

The gun laws in USA are out of control. Should anyone really need an arsenal of military grade weapons to defend against burglars ?

aggi
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by aggi » Thu May 09, 2019 3:25 pm

Blackrod wrote:Capital Punishment isn’t used in all US States.
Which actually gives a decent basis to look at how effective capital punishment is as a deterrent.

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Bfcboyo
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu May 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Just moving past the debate on whether in some circumstances the death penalty is warranted your post above is still to simplistic and therefore problematic.

When you say the Bradys and Sutcliffes then at some point there has to be a line drawn where a crime or criminal becomes eligible/accountable to receive the death penalty and that this has to be written in law. Who makes the moral distinction and boundary where two similar crimes can fall on different sides of the line and one person is sentenced to death and the other isn't

Its easy to look at the extremes but who decides where the line is and how do we put that clearly into our legal system. How do we safeguard that once the standard is set for the death penalty the focus then isn't shifted on to the heinous crimes that don't legal carry the death penalty and that emotive media stories suddenly don't influence the public wanting that line moved further and further from the extremes

There is a real danger that what you first describe as the Sutcliffes and Bradys overtime becomes very different and then we are back in the realm of risking executing innocent people. Its easy to read a report of the most vile offender and wish death on him/her but it really isn't and can never be that simple in the real world and we potentially will be aking our way down a very slippery slope
Very good points. These crimes do stir the emotions to extreme places. I'm gob smacked at some over the top reactions with very little reflection or reaction to the crime itself. Fuelled by some strange sense of grandeur from the high and mighty attention seeking posters. And all because I share a different view on how he should be dealt with out of shock at the crimes committed.

Bfcboyo
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Re: The Death Penalty.

Post by Bfcboyo » Thu May 09, 2019 7:06 pm

aggi wrote:How would this work? Would it be part of the court case (not guilty, guilty, really guilty) or would it be some form of committee?

At the moment people are only meant to be found guilty if it is beyond reasonable doubt so surely the death penalty could be applied to all convictions.
It is a tricky one to call. Very hard to measure each crime fairly. A publicly selected panel could vote on each case using a scale of severity.

Personally if he gets convicted of everything he is suspected of I would have no problem him being executed. I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep and hope it would bring peace to some of the victims.

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