Question Time

[Darthlaw]

Recently the studio audiences have been full of noisy Brexiteers who will shout down any contrary opinions rather than an equal mix of folk reflective of wider society.

The likes of Soubry have provoked this anger, though. Still it’s better than the ‘whooping’ remainers of the London audiences, reflective of those inside the M25.

I did enjoy her squirming on the question of her not standing for a by-election, though, now she has changed alliegences.

[Falcon]

To be fair to her (I know, not popular being fair to politicians of any ilk on here), I understand from another thread on here that nobody has ever stood in a by-election when they've crossed the chamber previously so it's not like there was precedent

[Greenmile]

Ringo doesn't need my help in wiping the floor with the many transparent remoaners on here. It's as easy as it will be for Farage the week after next

You’re supposed to have voted Remain, yourself. Did you forget?

[aggi]

To be fair to her (I know, not popular being fair to politicians of any ilk on here), I understand from another thread on here that nobody has ever stood in a by-election when they've crossed the chamber previously so it's not like there was precedent

I'm sure one or two of the UKIP ones did.

[Darthlaw]

To be fair to her (I know, not popular being fair to politicians of any ilk on here), I understand from another thread on here that nobody has ever stood in a by-election when they've crossed the chamber previously so it's not like there was precedent

Granted but standing for a people’s vote, as the situation has changed, whilst simultaneously denying her constituents a similar vote, for her own similar circumstances, is somewhat double standards.

[RingoMcCartney]

Soubrey " so much has changed since the 2016 referendum we need to go back to the people to see if they've changed their minds. We need a people's vote"

The Constituents of Broxtowe " We voted for you on the basis of the Conservative party manifesto that you stood on. Which said youd enact the referendum result.Youre in a different party now, openly campaigning to overturn that referendum with a 2nd one, before its result has even been implemented. So much has changed. We need a people's by election"

Soubrey - "I've had a few emails to say they support me"......

The Constituents of Broxtowe- " Anna, How would you feel if having been elected, democratically, by the majority of your Constituents. The guy that came 2nd demanded another general election before you were allowed to take your seat as our MP?"

Soubrey- " Erm. All those who voted Leave are racist, uneducated and didn't know what they were voting for. Or something"........

[AndyClaret]

Hahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahaahahaha!

JFW

That will be a no then, just a nasty smear. All donations have been declared to the Electoral Commission.

[AndyClaret]

To be fair to her (I know, not popular being fair to politicians of any ilk on here), I understand from another thread on here that nobody has ever stood in a by-election when they've crossed the chamber previously so it's not like there was precedent

Carswell and Reckless did.

[Falcon]

You’re supposed to have voted Remain, yourself. Did you forget?

'She' will be calling herself a traitor in a minute

[Lancasterclaret]

That will be a no then, just a nasty smear. All donations have been declared to the Electoral Commission.

Come on Andy, you are not this thick.

Shall we go through this slowly?

What is the minimum amount that can be declared before the Electoral commission has to be notified?

[Guich]

You’re supposed to have voted Remain, yourself. Did you forget?

Maybe Elizabeth sits in the 'voted remain - respect the result' camp Greenmile.

I suspect that group (in the electorate) is significantly larger one might expect.

[Lancasterclaret]

Maybe Elizabeth sits in the 'voted remain - respect the result' camp Greenmile.

I suspect that group (in the electorate) is significantly larger one might expect.

I very sure the other account she/he uses didn't!

[aggi]

Maybe Elizabeth sits in the 'voted remain - respect the result' camp Greenmile.

I suspect that group (in the electorate) is significantly larger one might expect.

The 'voted remain - respect the result - idolise Farage - call remain voters remoaners' camp is pretty small though I'd bet.

[Falcon]

Elizabeth might shock you all by admitting being wrong about something, anything, no matter how minor. It would certainly convince me she wasn't you-know-who.

[AndyClaret]

Come on Andy, you are not this thick.

Shall we go through this slowly?

What is the minimum amount that can be declared before the Electoral commission has to be notified?

Dry your eyes mate.

https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/sta ... 6754065409" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Guich]

I very sure the other account she/he uses didn't!

Who's that Lancs?

[Guich]

The 'voted remain - respect the result - idolise Farage - call remain voters remoaners' camp is pretty small though I'd bet.

That's true enough

[Elizabeth]

I would think that there are millions of remain voters who are more fed up with other remain voters who won't accept the referendum result than they are of leave voters.
There is nonsense spouted by some on here. Because they won't let it lie I choose to call them remoaners. A fairly reasonable term to use, whichever way you voted, in view of the crisis the UK is in because of the refusal of some to accept the referendum result.

Losers pretending they are winners, collectively blowing kisses to each other on here in an effort to maintain morale.

Falcon, I notice you are one of the selective posters. You felt it necessary to challenge me on my use of the word ' traitor' earlier today. I don't recall you challenging the language of such posters I mention when they use what you might call emotive words. Are you a remain voter who fall into this group?

I am not confident of getting a reply from you as you failed to reply to my question directed at you this morning on the subject of collective cabinet responsibility. You may surprise me so I live in hope.

[nil_desperandum]

Soubrey " so much has changed since the 2016 referendum we need to go back to the people to see if they've changed their minds. We need a people's vote"

The Constituents of Broxtowe " We voted for you on the basis of the Conservative party manifesto that you stood on. Which said youd enact the referendum result.Youre in a different party now, openly campaigning to overturn that referendum with a 2nd one, before its result has even been implemented. So much has changed. We need a people's by election"

Soubrey - "I've had a few emails to say they support me"......

The Constituents of Broxtowe- " Anna, How would you feel if having been elected, democratically, by the majority of your Constituents. The guy that came 2nd demanded another general election before you were allowed to take your seat as our MP?"

Soubrey- " Erm. All those who voted Leave are racist, uneducated and didn't know what they were voting for. Or something"........

As I understand it, (and there's lots of evidence / data to support this), Soubry made her pro-EU views known during the 2017 hustings, and told her constituents that she favoured remaining in the SU and SM, (contrary to the Tory manifesto). She then got the highest Tory vote in Broxtowe for 25 years. This sort of suggests that she has a mandate for her position in her constituency - even if, like me, you find her overbearing and irritating.

[Elizabeth]

Broxtowe was a Labour seat up to 2010. Soubry held it in 2015 with a large majority of 4287.
Her majority in 2017 fell to 863 with 46.8% compared to 45.3% for Labour. This was a 6.5% decrease in her majority which is now small and would be targeted as a winnable seat for Labour. Or indeed the Brexit Party if it came to it. Certainly not the Change Party( or whatever it is now called)
While she may have acquired the highest vote in numbers in that constituency for 25 years I would put that down to the turnout. I would further suggest she nearly lost it for the Conservatives with her views on the EU.
The electorate at that time were also unaware that she would go on to play a leading part in the betrayal that was to follow on the referendum result

[nil_desperandum]

Broxtowe was a Labour seat up to 2010. Soubry held it in 2015 with a large majority of 4287.
Her majority in 2017 fell to 863 with 46.8% compared to 45.3% for Labour. This was a 6.5% decrease in her majority which is now small and would be targeted as a winnable seat for Labour. Or indeed the Brexit Party if it came to it. Certainly not the Change Party( or whatever it is now called)
While she may have acquired the highest vote in numbers in that constituency for 25 years I would put that down to the turnout. I would further suggest she nearly lost it for the Conservatives with her views on the EU.
The electorate at that time were also unaware that she would go on to play a leading part in the betrayal that was to follow on the referendum result

You slipped up there Ringo, and accidentally replied as your "remain voting" alter ego - Elisabeth.
Anyway, Soubry got the highest number of votes that a Tory had achieved in that seat for over 25 years, and Labour, (who were also canvassing on the promise of some form of Customs Union and Single Market alignment) came a strong 2nd. So whatever way you try to twist it, the voters of Broxtowe were backing her then and current position of retaining CU and SM benefits. The Confirmatory Vote proposal has only gained oxygen because of the failure of May and the ERG to compromise with the rest of Parliament and deliver a brexit that attempts to bring the country together.

[levraiclaret]

Approaching half time and Farage 5 - nil up.

Was that in the Liars, Fascists & Spivs Challenge Cup?

[levraiclaret]

Amber is former wife of the extremely talented AA Gill (RIP)

That would be the AA Gill who wrote before the 2016 vote:

http://spoot-shoot.blogspot.com/2016/06 ... or-in.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

perhaps Ringo Andy and Liz should read it. It wouldn't help Murger though.

[Elizabeth]

You are forgetting nd that Soubry's constituency voted clearly to leave the EU so what you have posted just didn't happen as you think it did in my opinion. Balance of probabilities.
And what do you mean Labour came a strong second. It is a constituency where there are only 2 main runners. You talk as if there was a challenge to Conservative and Labour.
The crunch is still to come and the sooner posters think for themselves and don't act as sheep the sooner there will be proper debate on this thread.

Edit: unless your believe the leave voters wanted to stay in CU and SM which would be ridiculous wouldn't it.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Farage is clearly panicking people.

I have just skimmed through this thread and there is complete denial about the validity of his points. Quoon (I think) highlights the chap who asked him to name a country trading entirely on WTO terms and implies Farage was caught out. Farage couldn’t, but explained that WTO is a baseline to which is then layered a sequence of trade block arrangements and individual free trade deals, and we would be no different.

I think he was absolutely correct.

Take the example of Australia, part of a wider trade block but still able to conduct independant free trade deals (obviously with some limitations). Similarly, the USA are in that central / North America trade block but still negotiate separately with others. The existing trade deals flex and get renegotiated as and when new ones are added, but independence and sovereignty is preserved. The EU is too big for that to be the case within it.

I’m not a fan of no deal, but it may be the only way now to eventually get the same kind of arrangement as all these other countries. The EU may still end up in a bad place after their gloating in the BBC4 Behind Closed Doors (2 year fly on the wall doc with Verhofstadts team) yesterday.

[levraiclaret]

Farage is clearly panicking people.

Liars, Fascists & Spivs often do.

[levraiclaret]

Farage is clearly panicking people. I think he was absolutely correct.

Farage was challenged on promoting a Norway style arrangement prior to the 2016 vote, he now categorically denies it, but there are scores of video clips of his speeches doing it. How can you maintain that he is absolutely correct to do so?

[nil_desperandum]

You are forgetting nd that Soubry's constituency voted clearly to leave the EU so what you have posted just didn't happen as you think it did in my opinion. Balance of probabilities.
And what do you mean Labour came a strong second. It is a constituency where there are only 2 main runners. You talk as if there was a challenge to Conservative and Labour.
The crunch is still to come and the sooner posters think for themselves and don't act as sheep the sooner there will be proper debate on this thread.

Edit: unless your believe the leave voters wanted to stay in CU and SM which would be ridiculous wouldn't it.

Ringo / Elizabeth: Soubry campaigned pro-EU in 2017 and her vote went up by nearly 2%. She almost got 50% of the total votes cast, - in fact if you add (remain) Lib Dem and Green votes to her 47%, then it was an overall majority pro-EU.
As I pointed out Labour official manifesto policy was also pro CU and SM.
Those who wanted a "no deal" WTO brexit could have voted Ukip .Guess what? They went down 8% and the candidate lost his deposit, so it's very hard to make much of a case that Soubry is going against her constituents especially as the remain / leave split in Broxtowe was almost 50 / 50 at the referendum.

[aggi]

Broxtowe was a Labour seat up to 2010. Soubry held it in 2015 with a large majority of 4287.
Her majority in 2017 fell to 863 with 46.8% compared to 45.3% for Labour. This was a 6.5% decrease in her majority which is now small and would be targeted as a winnable seat for Labour. Or indeed the Brexit Party if it came to it. Certainly not the Change Party( or whatever it is now called)
While she may have acquired the highest vote in numbers in that constituency for 25 years I would put that down to the turnout. I would further suggest she nearly lost it for the Conservatives with her views on the EU.
The electorate at that time were also unaware that she would go on to play a leading part in the betrayal that was to follow on the referendum result

There's a pro-Brexit poster on here, Ringo, who is very definite that the number of votes is the most important factor.

[aggi]

Farage is clearly panicking people.

I have just skimmed through this thread and there is complete denial about the validity of his points. Quoon (I think) highlights the chap who asked him to name a country trading entirely on WTO terms and implies Farage was caught out. Farage couldn’t, but explained that WTO is a baseline to which is then layered a sequence of trade block arrangements and individual free trade deals, and we would be no different.

I think he was absolutely correct.

Take the example of Australia, part of a wider trade block but still able to conduct independant free trade deals (obviously with some limitations). Similarly, the USA are in that central / North America trade block but still negotiate separately with others. The existing trade deals flex and get renegotiated as and when new ones are added, but independence and sovereignty is preserved. The EU is too big for that to be the case within it.

I’m not a fan of no deal, but it may be the only way now to eventually get the same kind of arrangement as all these other countries. The EU may still end up in a bad place after their gloating in the BBC4 Behind Closed Doors (2 year fly on the wall doc with Verhofstadts team) yesterday.

It's a position, but it's a brave one. Australia has spent years upon years negotiating it's trade deals. Being dumped into WTO with no deals would be quite the shock for any economy. Has the performance of the past couple of years convinced you that we'll be able to negotiate some great trade deals?

Out of curiosity, what specific terms are there in existing trade deals that are disadvantaging the UK or what deals are we being blocked from?

[Lancasterclaret]

Farage is clearly panicking people.

I have just skimmed through this thread and there is complete denial about the validity of his points. Quoon (I think) highlights the chap who asked him to name a country trading entirely on WTO terms and implies Farage was caught out. Farage couldn’t, but explained that WTO is a baseline to which is then layered a sequence of trade block arrangements and individual free trade deals, and we would be no different.

I think he was absolutely correct.

Take the example of Australia, part of a wider trade block but still able to conduct independant free trade deals (obviously with some limitations). Similarly, the USA are in that central / North America trade block but still negotiate separately with others. The existing trade deals flex and get renegotiated as and when new ones are added, but independence and sovereignty is preserved. The EU is too big for that to be the case within it.

I’m not a fan of no deal, but it may be the only way now to eventually get the same kind of arrangement as all these other countries. The EU may still end up in a bad place after their gloating in the BBC4 Behind Closed Doors (2 year fly on the wall doc with Verhofstadts team) yesterday.

I think the point that farage and his fan club completely missed was not only was that he didn't know that, but that he doesn't know that FTAs are not agreed overnight, nor will any trade deal with the EU be signed without the withdrawal agreement.

It a piece of **** to do what Farage is doing, but actual solutions are what we need, not populist nonsense

[scouseclaret]

Farage is clearly panicking people.

I have just skimmed through this thread and there is complete denial about the validity of his points. Quoon (I think) highlights the chap who asked him to name a country trading entirely on WTO terms and implies Farage was caught out. Farage couldn’t, but explained that WTO is a baseline to which is then layered a sequence of trade block arrangements and individual free trade deals, and we would be no different.

I think he was absolutely correct.

Take the example of Australia, part of a wider trade block but still able to conduct independant free trade deals (obviously with some limitations). Similarly, the USA are in that central / North America trade block but still negotiate separately with others. The existing trade deals flex and get renegotiated as and when new ones are added, but independence and sovereignty is preserved. The EU is too big for that to be the case within it.

I’m not a fan of no deal, but it may be the only way now to eventually get the same kind of arrangement as all these other countries. The EU may still end up in a bad place after their gloating in the BBC4 Behind Closed Doors (2 year fly on the wall doc with Verhofstadts team) yesterday.

What on earth makes you, or any of these people, believe that we will be able to gain better trade terms as a singular, small (in global terms) economy, than we can as part of one the three largest trading blocks in the world? It’s part of the same mythical, nonsensical belief that the EU will somehow be willing to give us better terms than it gives its own members. It absolutely, categorically, is not going to happen.

[scouseclaret]

That would be the AA Gill who wrote before the 2016 vote:

http://spoot-shoot.blogspot.com/2016/06 ... or-in.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

perhaps Ringo Andy and Liz should read it. It wouldn't help Murger though.

He was absolutely spot-on, wasn’t he?

[Elizabeth]

So many holes in your last reply to me nd.

I think your bias and misguided reply is best demonstrated in the final line. Since when was a 10% differential almost 50/50? Do you not think people will check these things out for themselves. People aren't as thick as you seem to think.
Then you have the belief that in a year this big differential has been overturned because of votes the smaller insignificant parties in the constituency have received.

I think Captain Lancaster and crew should be having words with you about devaluing your arguments.
Then again I don't think they would know what reasonable debate was if it fell off the shelf in front of them.

[dsr]

What on earth makes you, or any of these people, believe that we will be able to gain better trade terms as a singular, small (in global terms) economy, than we can as part of one the three largest trading blocks in the world? It’s part of the same mythical, nonsensical belief that the EU will somehow be willing to give us better terms than it gives its own members. It absolutely, categorically, is not going to happen.

Because trade deals (excluding the proposed UK/EU one) are done on a mutual benefit basis. Both parties agree a deal which benefits them both. Onviously the EU won't play at that game, as they want a deal that damages the UK; equally obviously quite a lot of people believe that the proposed deal, though clearly heavily skewed in the EU's favour, doesn't damage the UK and is in fact beneficial.

But with the rest of the worlld, deals can be done on a fair basis without either side trying to screw the others into the ground. Hopefully free trade for all, or as close as we can get it.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Ringo’s more cordial responses as Elizabeth are far less entertaining.

[scouseclaret]

DSR- Interesting to say the EU “wants a deal that damages the uk”. That should worry you, given that it is by far our biggest trading partner (44% of exports).

But it takes a Brexiteer to put it in those terms. The truth is that the EU does not want to “damage” the UK - it would much prefer to continue to trade with us as part of the the most successful free trade area in economic history. However, the idea that the remaining 27 members would agree to grant us better terms than they themselves enjoy - as Davies, Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al will have you believe - is clearly nonsensical.

Still, if we’re agreed that the terms of UK/EU trade will be “damaged”, where do we make up the difference?

Our second biggest trading partner is the US, currently ripping up agreements with everyone else under the leadership of probably the most protectionist President in any of our lifetimes. Good luck with that.

Rest of the World? India is often trotted out as one of the emerging markets we need to do more business with. Fair enough, but it currently accounts for around 1% of our export volumes. So if, for arguments sake, our “damaging” outcome with the EU costs us 10% of our trade with them (c4% of our total exports) we will need to increase our exports to a relative poor country on the other side of the world four-fold!

The fact of the matter is trade agreements take a long time to sort out - especially when you’re in the position of having to negotiate hundreds of them at the same time. Worryingly little progress has been made in the 3 years since the referendum. If we leave the EU and the customs union, we will be on WTO terms with much of the rest of the world for years, maybe even decades.

Is that really what you want?

[TVC15]

Yep lovely fair free trade deals with the rest of the world - just like we are seeing now with America who are being so accommodating in their trade negotiations. But of course we are their special friend so i’m sure it will be all ok.

[SmudgetheClaret]

How did it get to the point where if you voted to leave the EU you are "far right" ? for the sake of balance that must mean if you voted remain you are a communist yes ?

[AndrewJB]

How did it get to the point where if you voted to leave the EU you are "far right" ? for the sake of balance that must mean if you voted remain you are a communist yes ?

There are people I know who support Brexit that I wouldn’t describe as far right, as well as “If it be your will” on here, so it’s not a clear political split. By far he same token not all leave supporters want a “clean break” exit, as many understand the huge problems this will bring. It hasn’t been mentioned much, but such a Brexit leaves all th EU nationals living here in a precarious position. I don’t think anyone voted Brexit to bring unhappiness like that. So to answer your question, I think all the original nuances are still there, but the Press are just giving voice to the extremes as it seeks clarity on the issue. There’s no majority in favour of no deal. We’re leaving, but we have to take the time to do it in a way that keeps the ship steady. We might have to forego forging trade deals with other countries for a decade or so, until we understand what it means to be out of the EU. Those calling for this clean break are as extreme as those calling for us to remain in the face of the vote.

[Foreverly Claret]

Lancaster Claret spot on here.Where are all these wonderful WTO deals that Farage rants on about going to come from ? .Liam Fox has been trying to put some together for bloody ages now with bugger all worthwhile results...he was in Iceland yesterday...that's going to do us a power of good isn't it ?This recent spat between Trump and China shows that when you are in with the big boys you're not just in a skirmish..it's a war ,the gloves are off and they'll nick anything they want from you .Farage doesn't deal in facts...why should he ..he's a bloody millionaire anyway and he's not looking for bargains at Tesco...same as Rees Mogg et al...they don't live in my world .

[nil_desperandum]

So many holes in your last reply to me nd.

I think your bias and misguided reply is best demonstrated in the final line. Since when was a 10% differential almost 50/50? Do you not think people will check these things out for themselves. People aren't as thick as you seem to think.
Then you have the belief that in a year this big differential has been overturned because of votes the smaller insignificant parties in the constituency have received.

I think Captain Lancaster and crew should be having words with you about devaluing your arguments.
Then again I don't think they would know what reasonable debate was if it fell off the shelf in front of them.

The EU Referendum result for the Broxtowe constituency (the declared vote was for the Borough which includes Eastwood and Brinsley) has been calculated at 51/52 % Leave and 49/48% Remain, of those who voted. So hardly the 10% differential you refer to you. (Though to be fair Broxtowe wasn't declared separately on a "constituency" basis at the ref, it was regional based, and you have to dig a bit deeper to get more local result. You're probably referring to figures for the Notts area of which Broxtowe is just a part).

[Elizabeth]

Thanks for that nd, I take back my jibe. You made me dig a bit more and the differential was 5%. If you want to say that's almost 50/50 I am not going to be churlish. There were certainly tens of other constituencies with much bigger differentials in favour of leave.
My memory of the 2017 general election is that the Brexit issue wasn't of the same importance with the electorate as it is with the current elections, including a general election if one was called tomorrow.
I would be reluctant myself to draw any conclusions from it as you seem to be doing.
I am also content that the Brexit party has more or less buried UKIP who, as was pointed out, were on the decline as far back as 2017

[Test User]

How did it get to the point where if you voted to leave the EU you are "far right" ? for the sake of balance that must mean if you voted remain you are a communist yes ?

far-right and communist aren't polar opposites. They're remarkably similar.

[Elizabeth]

As someone in their later years I must say I am trying to resist being flattered by all the attention and intrique I seem to be attracting on my few appearances on here.
I've always liked a good dog fight , even if I have thought my opponents were behaving unfairly.
If anything it's the sneaks in life I have to resist the urge to throttle ( not to be taken literally by the PC brigade )
I know what I am going to say will make me vulnerable to some on here who will see it as a weakness. Let's not let this Brexit debacle make us think any less of our neighbours. It is the politicians who have got us in this mess, not the voters.
Yes bordeaux , what I have just said is not very entertaining and I am happy to make you a deal. Show me some entertaining posts from yourself and I promise you will see a different side to me at times. And please try and cure this fixation you have with Ringo.
I think the only thing for me now on this thread is to wait for Falcon to come back from his holiday so he can answer the outstanding questions I have put to him. UTC

[Murger]

That would be the AA Gill who wrote before the 2016 vote:

http://spoot-shoot.blogspot.com/2016/06 ... or-in.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

perhaps Ringo Andy and Liz should read it. It wouldn't help Murger though.

Eh? Wtf are you on about?

[Bordeauxclaret]

Yes bordeaux , what I have just said is not very entertaining and I am happy to make you a deal. Show me some entertaining posts from yourself and I promise you will see a different side to me at times. And please try and cure this fixation you have with Ringo.
I think the only thing for me now on this thread is to wait for Falcon to come back from his holiday so he can answer the outstanding questions I have put to him. UTC

I don’t have any entertaining posts.I only come on here to be entertained by yourself when you post as Ringo.
I suppose it’s progress that you’ve realised you need another username as you’ve backed yourself into a corner far too many times with your first one.
It’s no surprise that you thought you could pull it off without anyone noticing though.

I just pray you continue to post as Ringo as well. You must not let your fans down.

[Elizabeth]

Statler and Waldorf are without question your inspiration in life . I hope I got that right. They were muppets I believe.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Thanks Ringsy. Means a lot.

[Elizabeth]

No Ringsy is our cousin. Bethring our sister.

A quick edit on your part I think is required