Crouch could well stay

Grumps · Post by **Grumps** » Mon May 13, 2019 6:38 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Sorry to be the bringer of dark statistics, but that isn't true.

Crouch played his first game on the 2nd of February against Southampton and we drew 1-1 in the final moments thanks to a hand ball penalty that he was involved in. That game came in the midst of our most productive run, which started with the match against West Ham on the 30th of December. During that run we notched up 5 wins and 3 draws.

Following his initial appearance he sat on the bench for two matches. Then returned for another 4 matches and we lost all of them. His final match was today and we lost.

To summarise, we lost five of the six matches that he played in. Obviously, that isn't all down to him. However, we did devote all of our tacical substitutions in those games towards playing a style that suited him. The most graphic example of the impact that had was the Crystal Palace match. In the first half we had them under our thumb, the changes were made, we lost the middle ground and they tore us apart.

It is stretching credibility, but I think Peters appendix saved our season. Had we persisted with tailoring our usual game to meet his specific needs I think there is a good chance we would have been relegated.

I don't think it is simply a matter of his age. As Dyche pointed out his game has never been reliant on pace, so putting a few years on the clock hasn't hampered him as much as it would a speedster who is reliant on pace. However, the game hasn't been cocooned in a temporal bubble for the last ten years. The speed of play in the Premier League has increased dramatically.

I think a 28 year old Crouch would be less effective today than he was in the past. The game has moved on and while he might be a "weapon" without pace and physicality he is the equivalent of a long pike when the conflict has moved on to favour long bows shooting rapid arrows that cover ground quickly.

His height causes confusion, although most of the teams he has faced have coped with it fairly well. They have been more troubled by the volume of balls being launched into their box. I think a rapid player, like Vydra, would cause the same degree of confusion. Teams know what they are facing with our two wrecking balls and they prepare for them as best they can. So when we throw something new into the mix, whether it is height or pace, it will unbalance them to the same degree.

Having found his podcast, because of his arrival here, I have listened to a lot of the episodes. Crouch really does comes across as a supremely likable bloke. Whether he stays or goes I will tune in to listen to it and I would encourage anyone who hasn't to give it a listen. Unfortunately teams don't let you score because you are a good bloke.

My main concern is his inability to play 90 minutes week in and week out. That to me is a big risk and a burden that we can't afford to carry. It's okay to say that he is a third or fourth option, but a couple of injuries and he is suddenly our only option. Football is a results business and a lot of people associated with the club depend on winning results to safeguard their livliehoods. For that reason we can't afford to carry any passengers.

Secondly, spaces in our squad are limited in terms of the 25 player restriction and our wage bill. A player who needs the team to play to their strengths prevents us from playing to other strengths. More importantly a player that offers a one dimensional tactic, that is already becoming predictable, limits us. Peters spot on the bench could be filled by another player who can play in more than one position ( attacking mid / striker or winger / striker ) which would provide us with more tactical options. Not only in terms of games, but provisions for covering injuries and employing new formations.

Thirdly, whenever he plays another player doesn't. Or to put it simply another player misses out on valuable game time that could benefit their development. To put on my financial hat for a moment, that development is also key to raising the value of players through visibility.

Lastly, he may not be on 60K a week, but if he signs a new contract then I expect he will be on more than we would pay for a younger player starting out in the game. Filling a breakthrough slot in our roster as Rigg would say. A few minutes here and there could be of enormous benefit to some of the younger players, giving them something to aim for. At the moment he represents a stop gap that is denying Vydra game time, let along a younger player who could fill the spot on the bench for far less money. A player at the start of their career who is just as hungry as he is.

Putting Daniel Agyei on the bench, within touching distance of first team game time, would have done our cause a world of good if we are have it in mind to offer him a new contract.

Taking everything into account, and as much as I've grown to like the bloke through his podcast, I simply feel that he is a niche market luxury that we can't afford to keep and our loss could be a Championship teams gain.

I don't think he was ever brought in to play 90 mins. Other than the Southampton game he has had no effect on any game, nice guy, mate of the gaffer, but no thanks for next season

beddie · Post by **beddie** » Mon May 13, 2019 7:02 pm

fatboy47 wrote:I'd like to see him get a few starts next season.

That's when we'll see the best of him. With 30 plus starts I'm confident he will be around the 15 to 20 goal mark.

I'd be over the moon if we gave him a 2 year deal. People forget how Matthews was stil a potent threat at this level right into his late 40's.

You omitted to add a smiley. "Get a few starts" and then what take him off after 15 minutes, He can hardly run, he looks knackered at this level. No, we need to use that money on other quality options. I like Crouch but he's not what we need.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:00 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Aye, Gray was gash.

I'm not sure by naming one out of all of them proves your point...

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:04 pm

Steve-Harpers-perm wrote:Wood and Barnes?

I'll give you Barnes. I'll take Gray. I'm waiting on Vydra. I still think Wood was a huge waste of money and doesnt give you anywhere near £15m worth of end product. And then there's the huge list of failures.... I wont reel them off. It's been done too many times before

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:24 pm

I'd rather we brought back Gifton Noel Williams, absolute gash signing was Crouch, Dyche says he wants the budget to be stretched but it's not really a surprise it hasn't been given his record for signing old ageing players who can't get on the pitch.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon May 13, 2019 9:35 pm

I love Dyche. And as a character love Crouch. But its exactly the sort of signing that will stop Dyche getting a top job.

Its easy for clubs and fans to look at black and white facts. And that with Dyche is he is limited at signing and intehrating anyone who young, dynamic, quick or foreign.

Of course theres the odd one. And Dyche in the main is working to the limitations he has. But he needs to be more open if he is to push on himself.

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:05 pm

The shout's for Dyche to go were growing around Christmas time due to poor football and losing games.
The football largely remained the same but the results improved as the season progressed, resulting in the disgruntled fans keeping quiet.
Resigning Crouch rather than allowing him, Vydra & Wells to leave with a proven younger premier League striker to replace them will be the mistake Dyche makes when the 'out' calls start again.

Grimsdale · Post by **Grimsdale** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:21 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:I'll give you Barnes. I'll take Gray. I'm waiting on Vydra. I still think Wood was a huge waste of money and doesnt give you anywhere near £15m worth of end product. And then there's the huge list of failures.... I wont reel them off. It's been done too many times before

Wood a huge waste of money? I'd say 10 goals in each of his Premier League seasons with us represents very good value.

For comparison, here are the PL signings made for centre forwards for around the same price over the past three seasons, I think I'd take Wood over most of these (also bear in mind we almost certainly wouldn't have been able to afford their salaries):

Ahmed Musa - £17m
Lucas Pérez - £18m
Vincent Janssen - £20m
Manolo Gabbiadini - £15m
Saido Berahino - £13m
Borja Bastón - £16m
Fernando Llorente - £14m
Cenk Tosun - £20m
Guido Carrillo - £20m
Olivier Giroud - £15m
Jay Rodríguez - £12m
Marko Arnautovic - £20m
Chicharito - £20m
Wilfried Bony - £12m
Andre Gray - £18m
Jürgen Locadia - £15m
Yoshinori Muto - £10m
Dominic Solanke - £19m
Aleksandar Mitrovic - £19m

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:18 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I love Dyche. And as a character love Crouch. But its exactly the sort of signing that will stop Dyche getting a top job....

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/spor ... -city.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Five of the teams have changed their manager, some more than once, appointing a cadre of the finest coaches of their generation, men who have won multiple championships in Spain, Italy, Germany and France, as well as a glut of Champions League and Europa League crowns. The one that has not, Tottenham, has built a stadium described as the most advanced in the sport, at a cost of £1 billion ($1.3 billion).

Unless Dyche takes Burnley on to win the League plus a couple FA/League Cups the execs at these clubs would will never sign him up so to pretend that a signing a player like Crouch to be an important factor holding him back is ludicrous. He's not even on their radar.

I'm always confused as to why people frame the idea that he can't go on to even bigger things as a reason to critisise the excellent performance he's had at Burnley.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:48 am

Would rather keep Wells around as a backup than sign Crouch.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Tue May 14, 2019 12:52 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I love Dyche. And as a character love Crouch. But its exactly the sort of signing that will stop Dyche getting a top job.

Its easy for clubs and fans to look at black and white facts. And that with Dyche is he is limited at signing and intehrating anyone who young, dynamic, quick or foreign.

Of course theres the odd one. And Dyche in the main is working to the limitations he has. But he needs to be more open if he is to push on himself.

I agree with this really. I think signing British, experienced lads who he knows have a good attitude is his comfort zone which he seems reluctant to move away from. If you were a chairman at another club with a vacany that would be a big question mark against him. If he ever wants to move on he needs to prove that he can work with different types of players.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Tue May 14, 2019 4:27 pm

Grimsdale wrote:Wood a huge waste of money? I'd say 10 goals in each of his Premier League seasons with us represents very good value.

For comparison, here are the PL signings made for centre forwards for around the same price over the past three seasons, I think I'd take Wood over most of these (also bear in mind we almost certainly wouldn't have been able to afford their salaries):

Ahmed Musa - £17m
Lucas Pérez - £18m
Vincent Janssen - £20m
Manolo Gabbiadini - £15m
Saido Berahino - £13m
Borja Bastón - £16m
Fernando Llorente - £14m
Cenk Tosun - £20m
Guido Carrillo - £20m
Olivier Giroud - £15m
Jay Rodríguez - £12m
Marko Arnautovic - £20m
Chicharito - £20m
Wilfried Bony - £12m
Andre Gray - £18m
Jürgen Locadia - £15m
Yoshinori Muto - £10m
Dominic Solanke - £19m
Aleksandar Mitrovic - £19m

This a standout bargain there and uts Jay

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Wed May 15, 2019 3:14 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAMt3_2JKIs

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed May 15, 2019 3:22 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48280363 suggests Crouch will still be here next season,baffling if true

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed May 15, 2019 3:54 pm

CombatClaret wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/spor ... -city.html
Five of the teams have changed their manager, some more than once, appointing a cadre of the finest coaches of their generation, men who have won multiple championships in Spain, Italy, Germany and France, as well as a glut of Champions League and Europa League crowns. The one that has not, Tottenham, has built a stadium described as the most advanced in the sport, at a cost of £1 billion ($1.3 billion).

Unless Dyche takes Burnley on to win the League plus a couple FA/League Cups the execs at these clubs would will never sign him up so to pretend that a signing a player like Crouch to be an important factor holding him back is ludicrous. He's not even on their radar.

I'm always confused as to why people frame the idea that he can't go on to even bigger things as a reason to critisise the excellent performance he's had at Burnley.

And why isnt he on their radar? Because hes perceived as old fashioned and one dimensional.

Obviously we know that not to be the case. But signings like crouch and similar wont helpthat image.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed May 15, 2019 3:56 pm

tiger76 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48280363 suggests Crouch will still be here next season,baffling if true

You just wonder what kind of statement this makes.

It was bad enough signing hin anyway. To re sign hin after neigh on zero contribution is madness

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Wed May 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Wow.......... well, just Wow

s6t9a2f3f · Post by **s6t9a2f3f** » Wed May 15, 2019 4:17 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:You just wonder what kind of statement this makes.

It was bad enough signing hin anyway. To re sign hin after neigh on zero contribution is madness

All depends on the wage really, we are quite a direct team, we do try and play with 2 wingers and rely alot on set pieces, this is a guy who unless injuries happen you will not see until after 65-70 minutes or so - so saying that not the worse guy to bring on either to grab a goal or cause enought confusion for somebody else to score a goal.

Long Time Lurker · Post by **Long Time Lurker** » Wed May 15, 2019 4:32 pm

summitclaret wrote:This a standout bargain there and uts Jay

The stand out bargain based on last season isn't on there. It was Karlan Grant who Huddersfield picked up for about 2m.

21 years old and after stepping up 2 leagues he scored 4 goals and contributed 1 assist in 13 games. In terms of goals per minutes which is almost the same as Barnes.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Wed May 15, 2019 4:58 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:The stand out bargain based on last season isn't on there. It was Karlan Grant who Huddersfield picked up for about 2m.

21 years old and after stepping up 2 leagues he scored 4 goals and contributed 1 assist in 13 games. In terms of goals per minutes which is almost the same as Barnes.

Yep Grant was a steal he'll score plenty in the Championship,surprising given our successful shopping at Charlton previously (JBG,Pope) we weren't interested.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed May 15, 2019 5:43 pm

I'd be happy if we went in for Grant. Would cost a decent amount due to the contract position but not outrageous I'd suspect.

Giftonsnoidea · Post by **Giftonsnoidea** » Wed May 15, 2019 7:28 pm

Not sure where this over the hill striker obsession has come from, loves his crocks does Dychio

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed May 15, 2019 7:39 pm

Grimsdale wrote:Wood a huge waste of money? I'd say 10 goals in each of his Premier League seasons with us represents very good value.

For comparison, here are the PL signings made for centre forwards for around the same price over the past three seasons, I think I'd take Wood over most of these (also bear in mind we almost certainly wouldn't have been able to afford their salaries):

Ahmed Musa - £17m
Lucas Pérez - £18m
Vincent Janssen - £20m
Manolo Gabbiadini - £15m
Saido Berahino - £13m
Borja Bastón - £16m
Fernando Llorente - £14m
Cenk Tosun - £20m
Guido Carrillo - £20m
Olivier Giroud - £15m
Jay Rodríguez - £12m
Marko Arnautovic - £20m
Chicharito - £20m
Wilfried Bony - £12m
Andre Gray - £18m
Jürgen Locadia - £15m
Yoshinori Muto - £10m
Dominic Solanke - £19m
Aleksandar Mitrovic - £19m

I accept that there will be plenty who disagree with my view on Chris Wood, and I can see their point of view. But I can't just look at his goal tally alone and kid myself that he does enough. He is essentially a goal poacher, yet he still misses a hatful of simple chances. Many will look at his effectiveness in "running the channels", but to be honest, he gives the ball away so much after picking it up when running the channels (despite him actually having a decent first touch), that as an opposition defender I'd let him run them all day. It's a sure fire way to hit us on the counter. He often dawdles around, putting the opposition back line under no pressure at all, meanwhile Ashley Barnes is charging around like a maniac trying to make things happen. And how many times do we also see Ashley Westwood also pushing up to do this, getting ahead of Chris Wood whilst he ambles around! Many will point out that our form has been good since Wood and Barnes started together, but there were other major factors at force, and I think he's just not cut out to be a Premier League striker. I am desperate to be proved wrong, but I've only seen 2 bits of evidence so far, and they came very early on last season...

Even if you do count Wood as a success, to balance out all of the failures, we only have Barnes, Gray and Wood to show for it. And that is a dire recruitment return in comparison when you think of all the success stories elsewhere.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed May 15, 2019 7:50 pm

Roosterbooster wrote:I think he's just not cut out to be a Premier League striker.

You might catch a few tonight!

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Wed May 15, 2019 7:58 pm

I'm serious

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed May 15, 2019 10:45 pm

s6t9a2f3f wrote:All depends on the wage really, we are quite a direct team, we do try and play with 2 wingers and rely alot on set pieces, this is a guy who unless injuries happen you will not see until after 65-70 minutes or so - so saying that not the worse guy to bring on either to grab a goal or cause enought confusion for somebody else to score a goal.

My Grandma would cause confusion of we brought her on. Shes an 89 year old woman.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Fri May 17, 2019 1:15 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:And why isnt he on their radar? Because hes perceived as old fashioned and one dimensional.
Obviously we know that not to be the case. But signings like crouch and similar wont helpthat image.

I already said why, and so did the article. The top 6 want/need a ready made winner with plenty of leagues and cups under their belt be it from here, Spain, Italy, Germany or France.
He could sign literally anyone and it wouldn't bring him any closer to managing an Elite club.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Fri May 17, 2019 5:51 am

He's on Graham Norton tonight.

Edit. He's on the Graham Norton show tonight

Swizzlestick · Post by **Swizzlestick** » Fri May 17, 2019 7:49 am

CombatClaret wrote:I already said why, and so did the article. The top 6 want/need a ready made winner with plenty of leagues and cups under their belt be it from here, Spain, Italy, Germany or France.
He could sign literally anyone and it wouldn't bring him any closer to managing an Elite club.

How many leagues and cups has Sarri won in his career? Pochettino?

I think he has a point about Dyche’s style and signings holding him back from bigger jobs.

I actually think Pochettino is a good example as he was at a similar ‘unfashionable’ club while at Southampton and got the Spurs gig purely based on his managerial abilities.

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:30 am

If Crouch stays the club & board have once again shown that they simply are unable to manage the recruitment of a top flight club.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:34 am

MRG wrote:If Crouch stays the club & board have once again shown that they simply are unable to manage the recruitment of a top flight club.

Relegated teams must be scratching their head how we do it, all our players are crap and so are any new signings

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:38 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Relegated teams must be scratching their head how we do it, all our players are crap and so are any new signings

Our luck will run out, we had our warning this season!

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:39 am

MRG wrote:Our luck will run out, we had our warning this season!

it is all down to luck

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:42 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote: it is all down to luck

Last signing that made a positive impact on the first team?

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:49 am

I’ll help you out, it was summer 2017. We have had 3 transfer windows since then and we haven’t added a single first team regular to the squad.

Now find me another club that haven’t improved their first team for 3 transfer windows!

Anybody who doesn’t realise that we have a big issue with recruitment is either naive or simply ignoring the facts. What makes it more worrying is that the chairman is a recruitment guru

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:56 am

Who was the recruitment guru in the summer of 2017 ?

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 8:58 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Who was the recruitment guru in the summer of 2017 ?

The Chairman

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:00 am

So it is more accurate then to say the last 2 windows were disappointing rather than we have a big issue and the chairman is a concern ?

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:03 am

No, I believe it’s absolutely accurate to say that we have not improved our first team across 3 transfer windows which in terms of recruitment is a massive issue.

I doubt that you can find any other club (potentially in the football league but certainly in the premier league) that haven’t improved across the 3 windows.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:06 am

These players that we have signed recently would you say they were done so behind Dyche's back ?

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:09 am

I have no idea of the in’s and out’s of the decision making process within the club. As per my initial post, ‘the club and board’ would certainly cover the spectrum of those involved with recruitment.

Have you come up with any other team that haven’t added a single first team player in 3 windows?

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:11 am

No none, every single club in the country has moved forward in the last 12 months and we have gone backwards, you have established that.

Bit like now we are establishing you have concerns about Dyche too seen as he has an input to these signings you don't approve of

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

I think my point has been made so I will leave it at that before things start getting silly.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:17 am

In fairness, they got silly when someone implied that it was Luck that kept us safe this season. It arguably kept Brighton safe, but not us. We earned our safety, this term.

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:49 am

There is no luck involved in where you finish at the end of a long season

You finish where you deserve to finish

MRG · Post by **MRG** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:52 am

So the bad luck of Coyle leaving mid season didn’t lead to us going down? The other thread would suggest a lot of posters on here would disagree. It can be lucky to have no bad luck!

A little bit of bad luck this season such a an injury crisis in the middle of the park would have seen a very different outcome. We must be prepared for ‘our luck running out’

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Fri May 17, 2019 10:12 am

If there is a problem with recruitment it is almost entirely down to who we are and where we are. A small town club in the Premier League will always have a recruitment problem unless it has a wealthy benefactor.

The only clubs roughly equivalent to us in the Premier League this season have been Cardiff and Huddersfield and their recruitment wasn't any better than ours, almost certainly worse. The nasty fact is that it is incredibly difficult for a club of our stature to attract players of a quality that allows them to compete effectively at this level and improve on what we have. That is why we have to gamble on taking players from lower divisions; sometimes these will work very well but often they won't make the grade. That is to be expected.

As it stands, Burnley are achieving phenomenal, almost unimaginable success on the pitch. Sean Dyche and the board have found a way of overcoming all the obstacles we face and so they are unlikely to discard that formula. It works and so does our recruitment policy. This is proved by the outstanding results we have achieved, unmatched by any other club or our stature.