It was tough when he left and the way he did. But was it really such a surprise?
Phil Gartside had recommended him to the Burnley board. Does it take too much to presume Gartside may have said something along the lines of " Listen, Owen...Burnley are a good club let's see how you go on there and if it proves very successful - I'm coming in for you " After all, Bolton weren't that keen on Gary Megson at that time.
Fanciful thinking maybe but not too unusual.
Perhaps the Burnley board thought it a nice gesture by Gartside....but didn't think about such a rider being put on it...
Anyway, I've forgiven him....it never affected me personally ..it's football, not your health or to do with family.

Lancasterclaret wrote:You are an absolutely superb bloke on here CT, but you've had a problem with Coyle since Day 1 because he did what the previous manager could not do.

No one is defending him for how he left, but its the continued ignoring of reality that bugs me.

Coyle got us into the prem, the parachute money enabled Howe to sign some top players who Dyche turned into a winning team.

To deny that is anything to do with Coyle is ridiculous.

I've never ignored reality. What we achieved with that promotion was fantastic and I don't think we'd have ever done that under Cotterill. I can't forgive him for what he did to us and I don't agree on the parachute money. And can I remind you that you once posted: "I'll bring my sons up to hate Brian Laws."

claretfern wrote:Phil Gartside had recommended him to the Burnley board

That I didn't know, I always thought the call came from Alan Nixon who was then permitted to write the welcome article in the match programme for his first home game in charge.

His achievements for me will always be tinged with the knowledge of the despicable way he left. He could've been a legend, who would never have to buy a drink around these parts for as long as he lived, but he chucked it all away through his hypocrisy.

I wouldn't applaud him but I wouldn't boo him. He's nothing to me now.

ClaretTony wrote:I've never ignored reality. What we achieved with that promotion was fantastic and I don't think we'd have ever done that under Cotterill. I can't forgive him for what he did to us and I don't agree on the parachute money. And can I remind you that you once posted: "I'll bring my sons up to hate Brian Laws."

So? You wandered around for about a year in Cotterils old training top in case you've forgotten!

Now unless you've got some magic formula that meant we suddenly found £60 million that otherwise wouldn't have had, I suggest you do less rewriting history and more reading about football finances.

Its a ludicrous position to take btw, as no one is arguing that Coyle wasn't a **** for leaving, but that without him and the money raised, we wouldn't be where we are today, which is 100% unarguable.

I'd go further as well, the experiences with Coyle (and to a lesser extent Laws) meant the Board learnt two very hard lessons which they took on board and used the experience to make sure they got the right man.

Lancasterclaret wrote:So? You wandered around for about a year in Cotterils old training top in case you've forgotten!

£2 in the club shop - and I needed one. It wasn't one of that he'd used at all.

TomtheClaret wrote:Is that steve jones next to beast?

He was there apparently, a bit of a surprise given he didn't play in that season.

ClaretTony wrote:£5 in the club shop - and I needed one. It wasn't one of that he'd used at all.

Thats not what you said at the time.

See, its not just you who remembers stuff.

Back to the football finances, how do you square the £60 million which we wouldn't have had?

This is so silly, you just have to accept financial reality and that it. Its not like anyone is telling you that you have to like Coyle is it?

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats not what you said at the time.

See, its not just you who remembers stuff.

Back to the football finances, how do you square the £60 million which we wouldn't have had?

Don't recall ever mentioning anything about it but they had a load of old stock in the club shop with DK, SD, SC etc. on them about a year after Cotterill had left. They used to do it every season. I needed one, still have it, and it cost a couple of quid.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Back to the football finances, how do you square the £60 million which we wouldn't have had?

I don't think I've ever queried that. All I've said is that we were in a mess financially when Dyche came in and Dyche himself has often referred to asking where the Premier League money had gone.

ClaretTony wrote:I don't think I've ever queried that. All I've said is that we were in a mess financially when Dyche came in and Dyche himself has often referred to asking where the Premier League money had gone.

Right, so we are getting somewhere.

Without that money, where is Ings, Vokes, Trips, Shackell, Marney et al?

Lancasterclaret wrote:Right, so we are getting somewhere.

Without that money, where is Ings, Vokes, Trips, Shackell, Marney et al?

From the profit we made on Fletcher, Eagles and Mears which more than paid for all of those players.
Now I know you could say we only paid for Fletcher and Mears because of the Coyle promotion !!...

...,but I think the bigger point is that there is a lot of water under the bridge between Coyle and Dyche and that we were pretty much skint when Dyche arrived and had a current team who were nowhere near getting promotion or even reaching the play offs. Dyche had no money to spend in his first couple of seasons and brought in a number of brilliant free transfers and he then got out of the existing players you mentioned far more than Howe or Laws ever did. I can’t remember many fans saying Dyche was very lucky to inherit star players like Marney, Mee, Vokes and Ings....infact many fans were saying Marney was bang average and not good enough, Ings was always injured, Vokes was a big lump and Mee was a poor left back !

TVC15 wrote:From the profit we made on Fletcher, Eagles and Mears which more than paid for all of those players.
Now I know you could say we only paid for Fletcher and Mears because of the Coyle promotion !!...

...,but I think the bigger point is that there is a lot of water under the bridge between Coyle and Dyche and that we were pretty much skint when Dyche arrived and had a current team who were nowhere near getting promotion or even reaching the play offs. Dyche had no money to spend in his first couple of seasons and brought in a number of brilliant free transfers and he then got out of the existing players you mentioned far more than Howe or Laws ever did. I can’t remember many fans saying Dyche was very lucky to inherit star players like Marney, Mee, Vokes and Ings....infact many fans were saying Marney was bang average and not good enough, Ings was always injured, Vokes was a big lump and Mee was a poor left back !

Yes, but they wouldn't have been signed without that £60 million.

Thats all I'm asking for here is an acknowledgement that we wouldn't be here without that money to buy the squad that Dyche turned into a promotion team.

I'm struggling to understand the relevance of Cotterill's training top

Burnley1989 wrote:I'm struggling to understand the relevance of Cotterill's training top

If it wasn't for Jimmy Mullen we could still be in the 4th, then we couldn't have attracted then next managers and players who helped keep the club progressing.

100 percent we wouldn't be where we are now without Coyle.

I'm not sure most people realise how bad the finances were at the time, although i'd expect CT does, but we were very nearly penniless until we achieved that Promotion.

We squandered the money in the end but it certainly enabled us to sign players like Fletcher (who we sold for more), and subsequently resulted in the purchases of Ings, Austin etc etc. That line eventually saw us promoted again under Dyche.

Coyle was a txxt for how he left, but we should always be thankful he started and left when he did. In Hindsight we did quite well out of it.

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes, but they wouldn't have been signed without that £60 million.

Thats all I'm asking for here is an acknowledgement that we wouldn't be here without that money to buy the squad that Dyche turned into a promotion team.

I’ve already pointed out that without Coyle’s promotion we could have gone into administration and this could have impacted the club for many years.
But I still go back to the point that Dyche did not inherit a side which showed any evidence that it was capable of getting promoted and he was not given any money so it is at best a tenuous link to the Coyle promotion and the money we got from that - as all the money has been spent. Dyche actually had to sell players.

As per the post on Jimmy Mullen you could argue that he deserves some of the credit for Dyche’s success and Stan Ternant, Cotterill, Laws, etc and I have what Coyle did in a similar category.

TVC15 wrote:But I still go back to the point that Dyche did not inherit a side which showed any evidence that it was capable of getting promoted and he was not given any money so it is at best a tenuous link to the Coyle promotion and the money we got from that - as all the money has been spent. Dyche actually had to sell players.

The squad didn't show any signs of getting promoted true, but a good number of the players already here when Dyche arrived played a significant part in changing that in 2013/14. That squad was put together with parachute payments from the year in the Premier League. Even having players to sell (e.g. Austin) was because we'd had the money to buy players who could attract a decent fee.

Bordeauxclaret wrote:Did he though? We appointed an absolute joke of a manager and still would have stayed up with a reverse of the Wigan result.
He left us in a great position. We blew it.

We were on a massive downward curve. We had won in ages, and didn't particularly look like winning either. I think anyone who thinks he'd have kept us up is being fanciful.

Burnley1989 wrote:I'm struggling to understand the relevance of Cotterill's training top

And I am for the dig at me for not liking Laws. Plenty thought he was ****, because he was, well, ****.

TVC15 wrote:I’ve already pointed out that without Coyle’s promotion we could have gone into administration and this could have impacted the club for many years.
But I still go back to the point that Dyche did not inherit a side which showed any evidence that it was capable of getting promoted and he was not given any money so it is at best a tenuous link to the Coyle promotion and the money we got from that - as all the money has been spent. Dyche actually had to sell players.

As per the post on Jimmy Mullen you could argue that he deserves some of the credit for Dyche’s success and Stan Ternant, Cotterill, Laws, etc and I have what Coyle did in a similar category.

To an extent I agree but I also think the key players for us: Ings, Mee, Vokes, Tripps even Shackell and Marney (and I'm sure more) would not have been here if it wasn't for that promotion money and the income we received for the players we sold on.

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:If it wasn't for Jimmy Mullen we could still be in the 4th, then we couldn't have attracted then next managers and players who helped keep the club progressing.

Thanks for the input, you normally make sensible ones, not ones that you'd normally be the first to criticise!

boyyanno wrote:To an extent I agree but I also think the key players for us: Ings, Mee, Vokes, Tripps even Shackell and Marney (and I'm sure more) would not have been here if it wasn't for that promotion money and the income we received for the players we sold on.

Exactly

deanothedino wrote:We were on a massive downward curve. We had won in ages, and didn't particularly look like winning either. I think anyone who thinks he'd have kept us up is being fanciful.

It would have been a struggle but it was not a forsaken hope.
We had our best performance of the season a few weeks earlier against Arsenal and were very unlucky to only get a point against Bolton at Christmas.

I'm not sure what all the arguments are about as the evidence clearly shows a number of things:

a) Coyle came to the club and was very successful for us in providing a tremendous League Cup run and getting us to the play offs which we won at Wembley.

b) Was given money to sign and prepare for our 1st season in the top Division for donkeys years.

c) In the 1st half of the season we had the element of surprise and started very well due to our brilliant home record.

d) Unfortunately the cracks were beginning to tell as we had an awful away record and most people realised that out manager did not have clue about defending.

e) Instead of trying to learn about defending he realised his own inability and thought the Directors had realised this to and was going to get sacked so behind everyones back he got a job at Bolton and left us at the most crucial time imaginable in the lurch and the rest is history.

So shall we file under "a gift from heaven which turned very very sower for all concerned" except that Burnley FC which gradually recovered and has gone on from strength to strength and long may it continue.

Sometimes I feel so sorry for Tony having such fixed views about certain things.
Yes Coyle did the dirty on us but he is definitely a key part of where we are today and if Tony cant see that,I find that amazing.
The premier league cash may well have run out but that cash had been invested in players who are listed above. In simple terms the business had invested in stock to generate future revenue

He is just making himself look silly and petty trying to argue otherwise.

TVC15 wrote:I’ve already pointed out that without Coyle’s promotion we could have gone into administration and this could have impacted the club for many years.
But I still go back to the point that Dyche did not inherit a side which showed any evidence that it was capable of getting promoted and he was not given any money so it is at best a tenuous link to the Coyle promotion and the money we got from that - as all the money has been spent. Dyche actually had to sell players.

As per the post on Jimmy Mullen you could argue that he deserves some of the credit for Dyche’s success and Stan Ternant, Cotterill, Laws, etc and I have what Coyle did in a similar category.

I think some people (not necessarily you) think that we're taking away from Dyche's achievements by saying that it wouldn't have happened without Coyle's promotion season.

That first Dyche promotion was unexpected and exceptional. However, it wasn't a team of lower league players that he inspired to promotion, it was a team of solid Championship players. They may not have been amazing players but pretty much every player in that team had 100+ appearances at Championship level or higher (and were paid commensurately). It wasn't a great team but it was one that we wouldn't have been able to afford if we'd been in administration or were cutting our cloth to try and repay loans, etc I don't think there can really be any debate about that (although obviously some feel differently)

boyyanno wrote:To an extent I agree but I also think the key players for us: Ings, Mee, Vokes, Tripps even Shackell and Marney (and I'm sure more) would not have been here if it wasn't for that promotion money and the income we received for the players we sold on.

Easy to say that with the hindsight of the players they became.
Ings cost £200k - as an initial fee.
Tripps & Mee - £500k
Marney - £800k

There was little difference in the clubs we bought these players from, where they had been on loan, and the level they had previously played to much of the team that Coyle put together...it could very easily be argued that Chris Eagles and Pato were much bigger buys than any of these in terms of their previous career.
Not sure why you think these players would not have been bought without the money we got from our season in the premier league under Coyle - they weren’t big signings at all.

ClaretTony wrote:£2 in the club shop - and I needed one. It wasn't one of that he'd used at all.

You know, and I know that he gave you kit, please don't try and change the thruth

TVC15 wrote:Easy to say that with the hindsight of the players they became.
Ings cost £200k - as an initial fee.
Tripps & Mee - £500k
Marney - £800k

Not sure why you think these players would not have been bought without the money we got from our season in the premier league under Coyle - they weren’t big signings at all.

Probably because we were in a desperate financial position and would have had to drastically cut our budget, never mind having money to sign players!

TVC15 wrote:Easy to say that with the hindsight of the players they became.
Ings cost £200k - as an initial fee.
Tripps & Mee - £500k
Marney - £800k

There was little difference in the clubs we bought these players from, where they had been on loan, and the level they had previously played to much of the team that Coyle put together...it could very easily be argued that Chris Eagles and Pato were much bigger buys than any of these in terms of their previous career.
Not sure why you think these players would not have been bought without the money we got from our season in the premier league under Coyle - they weren’t big signings at all.

The issue is that we couldn't even have carried on as we were under Coyle. We were making losses every year and had a loan to repay. We'd barely have been able to sustain a wage bill half of what it actually was. We simply wouldn't have been able to afford a squad full of solid championship players unless the directors subsidised us with more and more loans.

I find the notion that the £60mill that we got from promotion to the EPL under Coyle had absolutely 0 impact on the shape of the squad when Dyche took over is pretty inane tbh.

CoolClaret wrote:I find the notion that the £60mill that we got from promotion to the EPL under Coyle had absolutely 0 impact on the shape of the squad when Dyche took over is pretty inane tbh.

Unless you absolutely cannot see passed the Coyle years... Some people are so blinded, they cannot see what that promotion did for the club, where would we have been without the 60mill windfall? I guess had cotterill managed it, then this forum would have be full of articles over the past 10 years as that it was all down to him. Coyle was a sh1t, but what he did, whether by luck, or skill, helped us get to where we are now. Those are the facts, personal hatred cannot change that...... Not in the real world anyway.

I have just read the Stece Caldwell quotes about his time at the club and the season, which led to promotion.

All very good and obviously a tea with strong, lasting friendship and shared success.

They, and the manager, did us proud and were the team that showed us the promised land.

I thank then all.

It's obvious Coyle was gonna be there. He's an attention seeking bellend.

Murger wrote:It's obvious Coyle was gonna be there. He's an attention seeking bellend.

He was invited! Not sure how that's attention seeking?

Why can't people just accept that Coyle was a massive factor in what is probably the best season I've ever witnessed as a Burnley fan? Yes the way he left was poor, but people who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever or airbrush history just look a bit ridiculous tbh.

Yes my day is finally looking up, we now have training top gate

TVC15 wrote:Easy to say that with the hindsight of the players they became.
Ings cost £200k - as an initial fee.
Tripps & Mee - £500k
Marney - £800k

There was little difference in the clubs we bought these players from, where they had been on loan, and the level they had previously played to much of the team that Coyle put together...it could very easily be argued that Chris Eagles and Pato were much bigger buys than any of these in terms of their previous career.
Not sure why you think these players would not have been bought without the money we got from our season in the premier league under Coyle - they weren’t big signings at all.

Interestingly enough I'm sure it was Chris Eagles whose transfer we had failed to make payments on because we were that cash strapped before we went up.

I dread to think where we would have been if we hadn't gained promotion that season, the club had very few saleable assets and no money, just debt.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080914091 ... 2128402120

Nostalgic thread from the old board.

Lancasterclaret wrote:And I am for the dig at me for not liking Laws. Plenty thought he was ****, because he was, well, ****.

A poor appointment by the board (Flood?). This is a bit disrespectful to a former player.

Working_Class_Zero wrote:https://web.archive.org/web/20080914091 ... 2128402120

Nostalgic thread from the old board.

Reading some of the other threads at that time, how some prominent posters have changed their views

boyyanno wrote:100 percent we wouldn't be where we are now without Coyle.

Because SD is such a good manager I suspect we would still have achieved success because of his abilities.

So yes, we would most likely be in the Prem.

Murger wrote:It's obvious Coyle was gonna be there. He's an attention seeking bellend.

Highlighted when he had to remonstrate with the referee in the middle of the pitch in the Bolton game when the commotion was threatening to boil over in the stands.

Spijed wrote:Because SD is such a good manager I suspect we would still have achieved success because of his abilities.

So yes, we would most likely be in the Prem.

Had we not had the Coyle money/players, Dyche wouldn't have come as manager, so not really relevant

Grumps wrote:Reading some of the other threads at that time, how some prominent posters have changed their views

10 years have passed and the club has progressed whilst Coyle’s star has burnt out.

paulatky wrote:10 years have passed and the club has progressed whilst Coyle’s star has burnt out.

Some people still have the same views though, and are as burnt out as Coyle

Grumps wrote:Had we not had the Coyle money/players, Dyche wouldn't have come as manager, so not really relevant

A couple of points. We didn't have any prem money left when Dyche came, and secondly, he was an out of work manager who'd been sacked by Watford so he wasn't being inundated with other job offers. We offered him a job.

Spijed wrote:A couple of points. We didn't have any prem money left when Dyche came, and secondly, he was an out of work manager who'd been sacked by Watford so he wasn't being inundated with other job offers. We offered him a job.

I broadly agree with you that Dyche had all the ability to take us to the premier league. We will never know the answer to my next point though....

Without Coyle did the club ever imagine us having a realistic chance of being a premier league team? We got there by surprise, I doubt very much that anyone in the club expected it - I didn't and I doubt the board did with the free season ticket pledge. By Coyle getting us there, did it raise our ambition as a club and the ambition of our targets to get back there?

As I said, agree with you - just a thought...