£10 per hour for EVERYONE!

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nil_desperandum
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun May 12, 2019 1:15 pm

Paul Waine wrote: And, imagine all the uni bars, if all the bar staff were paid £10/hour - i.e. the students doing a few hours on the side to supplement their loan/grant.
If we're using imagination, then I very much doubt that many Uni students are currently being paid all that much less than that, and in many cases it's cash in hand + tips. [I believe it's currently around £8.50 / £9.00 in Manchester]
Average hourly rate for bar work is (apparently) currently around £7.43 but this is national average. Most Unis are in the major cities where prices and hourly rates are significantly higher, and of course if the £10 goes "through the books" then it's taxable and NI is applicable, rather than continuing to pay (e.g.) £7.50 cash in hand, (which would of course continue).

Paul Waine
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 12, 2019 2:19 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:If we're using imagination, then I very much doubt that many Uni students are currently being paid all that much less than that, and in many cases it's cash in hand + tips. [I believe it's currently around £8.50 / £9.00 in Manchester]
Average hourly rate for bar work is (apparently) currently around £7.43 but this is national average. Most Unis are in the major cities where prices and hourly rates are significantly higher, and of course if the £10 goes "through the books" then it's taxable and NI is applicable, rather than continuing to pay (e.g.) £7.50 cash in hand, (which would of course continue).
I hope no one is advocating tax dodging by not putting pay "thru the books."

Of course, in reality, everyone has their tax free earnings allowance - and NI is only payable above a certain weekly amount. So, I don't know why there would be any employer who wouldn't put everything thru the books.

Rumbletonk
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Rumbletonk » Sun May 12, 2019 2:35 pm

Burnleyareback2 wrote:He is a buffoon, the latest in tricks to get votes. What will be next, extra bank holidays, free beer?

And people still wonder why the conservatives had to implement cost savings...
Did someone mention free beer?
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Paul Waine
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 12, 2019 2:44 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:There's a difference, surely, between apprenticeships, (basically training), and someone aged 17 working on the till at (e.g.) Asda alongside someone who's 45. Why shouldn't both till workers be paid the same, otherwise it discriminates against the 45 year old, since it would cost more to employ them, and it also discriminates against the young worker who is doing the same job for less pay. As I said, I'm undecided about whether this is the correct way to go, and we all need to see the detail. It's an idea worth exploring IMO.
Hi nil_d, of course there is a difference between continuing to learn and progress and a youngster at 17 who isn't aiming to progress. The youngster would be better of learning some skills.

I also see many differences between a 17 year old and a 45 year old. Surely, 28 more years of "life experience" has the potential to give them more than the youngster. Maybe the 45 year old also has more responsibilities away from work? Maybe they are the parent of the 17 year old and part of their wage goes towards looking after the 17 year old.

I understand the "minimum wage" (or we can call it "living wage" but that's just politicians' talk) is not aimed at making people too costly to employee.

When politicians start talking about "£X" this and £Y" that we know that the rest of what they are saying is just a political "con."

It would be better if JC was speaking about how we can advance the prospects of the young, but I doubt that's what he's got in mind.

Damo
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Damo » Sun May 12, 2019 2:51 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:There's a difference, surely, between apprenticeships, (basically training), and someone aged 17 working on the till at (e.g.) Asda alongside someone who's 45. Why shouldn't both till workers be paid the same, otherwise it discriminates against the 45 year old, since it would cost more to employ them, and it also discriminates against the young worker who is doing the same job for less pay. As I said, I'm undecided about whether this is the correct way to go, and we all need to see the detail. It's an idea worth exploring IMO.
Basically encouraging 17 year olds to work on the tills at asda.
Isn't socialism fantastic
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AndyClaret
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by AndyClaret » Sun May 12, 2019 2:56 pm

Damo wrote:Basically encouraging 17 year olds to work on the tills at asda.
Isn't socialism fantastic
Well done everyone.

Test User
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Test User » Sun May 12, 2019 5:47 pm

Damo wrote:Basically encouraging 17 year olds to work on the tills at asda.
Isn't socialism fantastic
Encouraging people to work for the worlds richest supermarket is socialism now? :lol:

By this logic (the logic being that government encouraging you to work is socialism) then apparently scrapping the entire welfare system to encourage people to work for private companies is socialism.

Paul Waine
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 12, 2019 5:57 pm

Test User wrote:Encouraging people to work for the worlds richest supermarket is socialism now? :lol:

By this logic (the logic being that government encouraging you to work is socialism) then apparently scrapping the entire welfare system to encourage people to work for private companies is socialism.
Hi TU, yes Sam Walton's family ae very wealthy. I understand Walmart, including Asda, employ somewhere around 2,300,000.

But, JC's socialism is saying that whether you are 17 or older we are all worth £10/hour on Walmart's tills. And, if you are making a bit more than that, we'll be paying the taxes to pay for all the people working on Walmart's tills, well, at least the UK based ones.

nil_desperandum
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by nil_desperandum » Sun May 12, 2019 6:12 pm

Damo wrote:Basically encouraging 17 year olds to work on the tills at asda.
Isn't socialism fantastic
I don't look down on or sneer at anyone who works in retail on a till, but if it helps you make a cheap political point then well done.
Incidentally, you come across as a decent bloke generally, so I think you should be a at least a bit concerned that AndyClaret gave your post a "like"

Test User
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Test User » Sun May 12, 2019 6:44 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi TU, yes Sam Walton's family ae very wealthy. I understand Walmart, including Asda, employ somewhere around 2,300,000.

But, JC's socialism is saying that whether you are 17 or older we are all worth £10/hour on Walmart's tills. And, if you are making a bit more than that, we'll be paying the taxes to pay for all the people working on Walmart's tills, well, at least the UK based ones.

Why should someone who is 17 or 18 be paid less for doing the same job as someone 30 years older? What makes the work they do worth less £s per hour compared to someone else doing the exact same work?

Companies shouldn't be paying people what they, you or I have decided they're worth, they should be paying them based on what their work is worth.

Not only that but it makes absolutely no sense to encourage illegal hiring practices. It's illegal to hire or refuse to hire based on age so why are we encouraging it by allowing companies to pay younger people less?

I also don't believe that the inexperience argument makes much sense. How often do you see jobs that only pay the minimum wage that also require experience?

It's all bullshit. I've yet to read a good reason for paying two people who do identical work, differently based on age. It negatively discriminates age in a way we wouldn't accept if it was gender or race, and it encourages companies to employ people for reasons other than how well they'll work. Which is interesting, because i've seen a few people in this thread who are critical of JC's proposal to end the encouragement of age-based employment complain in the past when the Sun or the Mail report about how companies are using agencies like Creative Access to ensure that they're receiving applications from BAME job seekers. Their complaint there of course is that people shouldn't be employed based on anything other than job performance. It's almost as if there's some cognitive dissonance going on. Or, more likely, it's just that they hate JC and therefore opposing his policy ideas, particularly his economic ones, is a reflex reaction.
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Paul Waine
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 12, 2019 7:15 pm

Test User wrote:Why should someone who is 17 or 18 be paid less for doing the same job as someone 30 years older? What makes the work they do worth less £s per hour compared to someone else doing the exact same work?

Companies shouldn't be paying people what they, you or I have decided they're worth, they should be paying them based on what their work is worth.

Not only that but it makes absolutely no sense to encourage illegal hiring practices. It's illegal to hire or refuse to hire based on age so why are we encouraging it by allowing companies to pay younger people less?

I also don't believe that the inexperience argument makes much sense. How often do you see jobs that only pay the minimum wage that also require experience?

It's all bullshit. I've yet to read a good reason for paying two people who do identical work, differently based on age. It negatively discriminates age in a way we wouldn't accept if it was gender or race, and it encourages companies to employ people for reasons other than how well they'll work. Which is interesting, because i've seen a few people in this thread who are critical of JC's proposal to end the encouragement of age-based employment complain in the past when the Sun or the Mail report about how companies are using agencies like Creative Access to ensure that they're receiving applications from BAME job seekers. Their complaint there of course is that people shouldn't be employed based on anything other than job performance. It's almost as if there's some cognitive dissonance going on. Or, more likely, it's just that they hate JC and therefore opposing his policy ideas, particularly his economic ones, is a reflex reaction.
Long response, TU. Thanks.

Agree, age discrimination is wrong. Are you saying that someone of 17 (or 18) will have the same working life experience as someone who is many years older? or, are you saying that there are some jobs that are so, shall we say "easy" that anyone can do them from their first day in the job?

I doubt either you or I are seeking to encourage discrimination in anyone's hiring practices, I'm certainly not.

I've just checked out a couple of job sites, cleaning jobs in Manchester £8.21/hour (or some just say NMW) - I saw a few that mention work experience. I'm sure the "experience" a lot of employers will often look for is the exerience to turn up every day and do the hours that you are expected to do. I'm sure there's nothing worse than running a business when a member of the team doesn't show up reliably, especially when the business depends on all the team being there.

And, I absolutely agree that neither you nor I should be deciding what someone is worth. I don't think JC should be making this judgement either, or any other politician. Set a minimum, yes, OK. But, if you push up the minimum too high - and above the level that the employee is worth - then the business won't employ them and those that aren't worth, at least, the minimum wage might not be employed.

Indecisive
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Indecisive » Sun May 12, 2019 7:33 pm

Would be good to understand the extent to which Corbyn has truly considered the economic impact of this policy.

Why stop at £10? Why is £10 the optimum? Why not £15...£20?


Surely significant minimum wage increases will naturally increase all wages (otherwise the incentive to learn a skill
diminishes)... won’t this just lead to price increases anyway?

Indecisive
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Indecisive » Sun May 12, 2019 7:42 pm

I’ve employed people of ages ranging from 16-60. The 16/17 year olds have pretty much all needed a significant investment in training and time to turn them into great members of the team. As an employer, there is a great satisfaction in seeing them develop as people as they enter the working world. The question is...would it have been difficult to give as many this opportunity, as we have done, if there was the barrier of paying them £10 ph??

Taffy on the wing
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Taffy on the wing » Sun May 12, 2019 7:51 pm

bobinho wrote:Austerity is ALWAYS needed after a labour government has been turfed out. And after 13 years of Labour last time, there was no money left due to it all being spunked away on a war that we were lied to by a Labour PM, to get us there, benefits for the un-sick, the un-lame and the bone idle lazy, a stupidly irresponsible foreign aid policy which see's us hand money over to countries with a space program, ridiculous compensation payouts (cos everyone deserves free money, right?) and God knows whatever else was a very deserving cause.

Oh, sorry. It was the global financial crisis/collapse that caused us to be skint wasn't it...the crisis that they saw coming. :o

This **** goes round in cycles. Labour get in, give money away like it's gonna explode in their hand, country ends up skint, tories get in and have to try to get things back on track by making massive cuts. People get fed up of cuts, vote labour back in. Ad infinitum,


you're deluded!.......Keep reading the Daily Mail!

Damo
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Damo » Mon May 13, 2019 10:57 am

nil_desperandum wrote:I don't look down on or sneer at anyone who works in retail on a till, but if it helps you make a cheap political point then well done.
Incidentally, you come across as a decent bloke generally, so I think you should be a at least a bit concerned that AndyClaret gave your post a "like"
I'm not looking down or sneering at anyone. I'm looking at this from my own perspective.
I have a 17 year old son. It would be great if he was suddenly earning £10 an hour from a financial point of view.
He could start paying board. He could pay for his own season ticket. He could pay for his own driving lessons. He could pay to retake his theory test after failing it last week. Once he passes he can pay for his car and his insurance. It would save me a fortune.
I dont want him to though if that means he works on the tills at a supermarket for the rest of his life.
I'd rather him continue to learn, with a view to making a career for himself or possibly set up his own business at some point in the future.
Even if it means him relying on me financially in the mean time.

Not sure what your issue is with a poster liking my post either.
I'm sure you and him have plenty in common even if you disagree on this, or other subjects.
You both support the same football team for starters

Damo
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Damo » Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 am

Test User wrote:Encouraging people to work for the worlds richest supermarket is socialism now? :lol:

By this logic (the logic being that government encouraging you to work is socialism) then apparently scrapping the entire welfare system to encourage people to work for private companies is socialism.
Hi Charlie.
Just a quick one so we both know where we stand.
Being as you are not a fan of freedom of speech, I feel as though I should only address you when you are on your original account.
If your freedom has been revoked, because you broke the rules or whatever, I think it's only fair I support your own stance by complying with the restriction of your own expression.
I look forward to your wonderful insight into all things when you're imploding turtle account returns

nil_desperandum
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 pm

Damo wrote:I'm not looking down or sneering at anyone. I'm looking at this from my own perspective.
I have a 17 year old son. It would be great if he was suddenly earning £10 an hour from a financial point of view.
He could start paying board. He could pay for his own season ticket. He could pay for his own driving lessons. He could pay to retake his theory test after failing it last week. Once he passes he can pay for his car and his insurance. It would save me a fortune.
I dont want him to though if that means he works on the tills at a supermarket for the rest of his life.
I'd rather him continue to learn, with a view to making a career for himself or possibly set up his own business at some point in the future.
Even if it means him relying on me financially in the mean time.

Not sure what your issue is with a poster liking my post either.
I'm sure you and him have plenty in common even if you disagree on this, or other subjects.
You both support the same football team for starters
First point fair enough in context, but there are a lot of people who would find it difficult to aspire to a job that requires greater qualifications and are actually very proud to be able to hold down a regular job doing an important (though relatively simple) job like til work. It's good that you have high expectations of your son, and support him. Not everyone has that level of support, and some are simply restricted in their life options through other disabilities and circumstances.
Burnley supporters are entitled to hold a range of views, but it is clear from this forum, that a minority don't share the same values that I do, and I don't wish to be associated with them, and will call them out.
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Test User
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Test User » Mon May 13, 2019 1:16 pm

Damo wrote: Being as you are not a fan of freedom of speech, ...

I'm not allowed to defend myself against this lie as doing so will result in me getting banned for "bickering". (I'm not joking)

basil6345789
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by basil6345789 » Mon May 13, 2019 3:29 pm

Good idea. Reduce university courses only to proper ones, get all other kids working from 16 and provide the jobs for them by retiring the older end at 60.

Test User
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Re: £10 per hour for EVERYONE!

Post by Test User » Mon May 13, 2019 3:45 pm

basil6345789 wrote:Good idea. Reduce university courses only to proper ones, get all other kids working from 16 and provide the jobs for them by retiring the older end at 60.
What university courses are not "proper"?

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