Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

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alf_resco
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Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby alf_resco » Sun May 12, 2019 11:05 pm

We survived.
Again.
Everyone seems to be happy.
Fine. I am too.
But to what end?
Next season will be exactly the same; scrapping and scraping the odd point or three off the 13 other also-rans in another effort to stay at the "top table."
History shows we don't compete/can't be arsed in the cups.
So, same old, same old?
Are we all happy with this scenario ad infinitum?

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Goody1975
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Goody1975 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:10 pm

I prefer this to what came before Dyche, it is often frustrating but we fought as a club since the mid 70's for this dream and i don't want to see us give it up because it isn't always a bed of roses.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby jdrobbo » Sun May 12, 2019 11:11 pm

You could argue that for eleven out of twelve seasons, we said the same at Championship level. The Premiere League is the very best place to be. It’s allowing us to grow our club, grow our fan base and with time, keep growing our academy.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby FactualFrank » Sun May 12, 2019 11:15 pm

Yes.

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alf_resco
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby alf_resco » Sun May 12, 2019 11:16 pm

jdrobbo wrote:You could argue that for eleven out of twelve seasons, we said the same at Championship level


Possibly.
The big difference being you could go to ANY game in the Championship and have a genuine hope of winning and/or being entertained and come away thinking, I've enjoyed that.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby tim_noone » Sun May 12, 2019 11:17 pm

Yes.....what a silly question.

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Wile E Coyote
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Wile E Coyote » Sun May 12, 2019 11:22 pm

yes, the hope is that we get slowly stronger, a tiny bit more wealthier, and can hang on no matter what. Its a fascinating battle to stay up here, and it is wonderful that we can somehow hold our own with the billionaire rivals.
championship is for chumps as far as Im concerned.....and I did say chumps.

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alf_resco
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby alf_resco » Sun May 12, 2019 11:23 pm

tim_noone wrote:Yes.....what a silly question.



OK.
Just asking.
Quite a few of the folk I associate with are saying (along with many other fans of clubs below half-way), what's the point?
Yes, you get loads of SKY money to spend on ever inflating transfer fees/agents/ wages in an ever increasing race to, err, stay where you are.

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martin_p
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby martin_p » Sun May 12, 2019 11:25 pm

jdrobbo wrote:You could argue that for eleven out of twelve seasons, we said the same at Championship level. The Premiere League is the very best place to be. It’s allowing us to grow our club, grow our fan base and with time, keep growing our academy.


This!

We’ve been spoiled over the last ten years. Exciting seasons or even the thought that we had a chance of beating any team hasn’t been the norm while I’ve been watching Burnley since the mid seventies.

You could argue that what’s the point of challenging for promotion from the Championship if we can’t compete in the Premier League anyway.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Clarets4me » Sun May 12, 2019 11:28 pm

When posts like this come up, as they do regularly, it brings to mind some half forgotten Rock star, writing in a " Confessional autobiography " that " money doesn't bring you happiness " .... they moan on about the Rolls Royces, Private jets, beautiful women throwing themselves at them etc , and they're now bankrupt, and living in a mate's flat in Urmston ...

In football terms, these are the Portsmouth's, QPR's, Bradford City's and Bolton Wanderers of this world ... I'm hoping we're going to be more like Nick Mason of " Pink Floyd ", didn't go daft, invested wisely, and kept enough in the bank to live well when the records ain't selling !!

My point is, it's what you do with the money in the " good times " that matters, and, for the most part we've used it well, either on strengthening the squad, improving the Club's infrastructure, building the " Community " side of the club amongst other things ...
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thatdberight
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby thatdberight » Sun May 12, 2019 11:28 pm

alf_resco wrote:...to stay at the "top table."...


These are the crumbs that are now dropped at everybody else's feet. If "competitiveness" is, say, defined as reaching the Top 6 in the PL, then we are at an all time low of competitiveness over the last 5 years - and that period includes the biggest upset of the modern era.

The counterargument is that the alternative is no better in any way and it's compelling. The Championship is going the same way so there's no dropping down to find some respite from these forces. Soon there will just be fluidity between 7th in the PL and the middle of the Championship; a rotating cast of clubs up and down to act as cannon fodder while the big 6 take the silverware. City have shown that your squad can now be big enough to win all the domestic trophies and probably give the CL a crack. The only interlopers to the arrangement will be if someone writes a cheque for a couple of billion to a club, in which case anyone has a chance.

But European Super League is coming with membership in perpetuity for several English clubs (because form is temporary but revenue-generating marketability is permanent). Perhaps the biggest clubs will still offer to play in domestic competition; with a squad of 50 they could - but maybe not - if you're going to take on extra committments, probably more lucrative to be playing additional matches in New York or Singapore or Beijing. Perhaps that could break the logjam and something new could be created but I doubt it - the remaining clubs would simply replicate the formula of the PL I'd guess.
Last edited by thatdberight on Sun May 12, 2019 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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martin_p
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby martin_p » Sun May 12, 2019 11:28 pm

alf_resco wrote:OK.
Just asking.
Quite a few of the folk I associate with are saying (along with many other fans of clubs below half-way), what's the point?
Yes, you get loads of SKY money to spend on ever inflating transfer fees/agents/ wages in an ever increasing race to, err, stay where you are.


It’s a game played to entertain, that’s the point. If you enjoy watching it’s doing it’s job. If you don’t, spend you leisure time doing something you do enjoy.
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Wile E Coyote
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Wile E Coyote » Sun May 12, 2019 11:37 pm

thatdberight wrote:These are the crumbs that are now dropped at everybody else's feet. If "competitiveness" is, say, defined as reaching the Top 6 in the PL, then we are at an all time low of competitiveness over the last 5 years - and that period includes the biggest upset of the modern era.

The counterargument is that the alternative is no better in any way and it's compelling. The Championship is going the same way so there's no dropping down to find some respite from these forces. Soon there will just be fluidity between 7th in the PL and the middle of the Championship; a rotating cast of clubs up and down to act as cannon fodder while the big 6 take the silverware. City have shown that your squad can now be big enough to win all the domestic trophies and probably give the CL a crack. The only interlopers to the arrangement will be if someone writes a cheque for a couple of billion to a club, in which case anyone has a chance.

But European Super League is coming with membership in perpetuity for several English clubs (because form is temporary but revenue-generating marketability is permanent). Perhaps the biggest clubs will still offer to play in domestic competition; with a squad of 50 they could - but maybe not - if you're going to take on extra committments, probably more lucrative to be playing additional matches in New York or Singapore or Beijing. Perhaps that could break the logjam and something new could be created but I doubt it - the remaining clubs would simply replicate the formula of the PL I'd guess.


i would think if the money grubbing arseholes who run the game presently, make the mistake of altering the structure as you suggest, then there would be an instant backlash by supporters, and those ponces would have to rethink almost immediately. Fans are not that gullible.

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alf_resco
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby alf_resco » Sun May 12, 2019 11:40 pm

martin_p wrote:It’s a game played to entertain.


:D

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby SGr » Sun May 12, 2019 11:47 pm

Is competing at the highest level of the domestic game the be all and end all? It’s a decisive yes from me.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby tim_noone » Sun May 12, 2019 11:49 pm

alf_resco wrote:OK.
Just asking.
Quite a few of the folk I associate with are saying (along with many other fans of clubs below half-way), what's the point?
Yes, you get loads of SKY money to spend on ever inflating transfer fees/agents/ wages in an ever increasing race to, err, stay where you are.

Club class or Economy...?

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Burnleyareback2 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:06 am

Compared to us trying to keep a float in the Championship with one of the smallest budgets - Yes it is.

All things being equal (no parachute payments) being in the Championship is an achievement for a club our size.

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Paul Waine
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Paul Waine » Mon May 13, 2019 8:22 am

alf_resco wrote:We survived.
Again.
Everyone seems to be happy.
Fine. I am too.
But to what end?
Next season will be exactly the same; scrapping and scraping the odd point or three off the 13 other also-rans in another effort to stay at the "top table."
History shows we don't compete/can't be arsed in the cups.
So, same old, same old?
Are we all happy with this scenario ad infinitum?


Hi alf, the end is that Burnley is competing in the Premier League, the top league in England. Yes, PL includes the "top 6" where the pitch is tilted very strongly in their favour, but we competed: got a draw at Chelsea, who finished 3rd, 3 points against Spurs - and only minutes away from a 4th - and a point at Old Trafford, and again minutes away from 3. That's competition. It's great to be one of the "other 14" - and it's great to end this season in the "top 10" of this section of 14.

As for the cups, we played Europa Cup at the beginning of this season, and we know that put more than a strain on our performances in the league.

And, take a look at our cup record from 1975 through 2005. It's not a given that if we aren't in the PL we will have cup success, though we did make the final of the Sherpa Van Trophy in 1988.

UTC

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby ElectroClaret » Mon May 13, 2019 8:27 am

Of course it is. The alternative would be plying our trade against the likes of Luton and Barnsley.

Which puts things into perspective.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby boatshed bill » Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 am

unfortunately, yes, it has become just that. And unless something is done to spread the TV money more evenly through the leagues this is how it will remain.
We're doing well just to survive at this level, but we all know it won't last forever unless we get bought by a billionaire!

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby jrgbfc » Mon May 13, 2019 9:13 am

Not for me. If our only intention is finishing 17th and not bothering with the Cups then I wouldn't be that bothered if we got relegated.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Rick_Muller » Mon May 13, 2019 9:24 am

Make hay whiles the sun shines...

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby NottsClaret » Mon May 13, 2019 9:25 am

Ask a Stoke fan how much they loved it this season, being the definition of a bog standard Championship team. Or Middlesboro.

I genuinely don't know, maybe they did like it. Perhaps knowing your place and trading points with QPR and Preston is better than seeing the likes of David Silva, Van Dijk, Ageuro and Aubameyang, with a few famous, never to be forgotten victories against the big boys.

The fact we seem to get 21,460 fans turn up at pretty much every game at the moment is making me think, for most people, the Prem is the better place to be.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby fatboy47 » Mon May 13, 2019 9:40 am

The OP reminds me of a talented, but small-minded bloke I played cricket with a few years back.

Everyone else loved our rise through the local leagues striving to compete with the best, whilst this berk was far happier if he could wallop an unopposed ton against the Blind School or Sunday School every weekend.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby kentonclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 9:41 am

If we were relegated to the Championship there would be a similar argument.

Is getting to the Premier League the be all and end all?

Judging by the amount of money, time and effort being spent by Championship clubs to win promotion it is!

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Colburn_Claret » Mon May 13, 2019 10:00 am

Definitely.
I wnot be devastated if at some point we are relegated, but we need to stay here as long as we can and then get back asap if we go down.
The reality is the top 6 are likely to finish in the top 6, 8 years out of 10. That leaves 2 spots every 10 years to be shared by the rest, including us .
In those circumstances survival is the only realistic target.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Vintage Claret » Mon May 13, 2019 10:14 am

I think it probably is

Love seeing world class players like Aguero, Hazzard, Salah etc at The Turf and those games when we do pull off surprise results against 'the big boys' especially away are still special.

A top 12 finish would be a great achievement next season but it would be nice to have a bit of a serious cup run for a change.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Lord Beamish » Mon May 13, 2019 10:22 am

For the time being, it is. The longer we stay in, the better we can make ourselves Team-wise, Club Structure-wise, and Stadium-wise.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby gtclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 10:39 am

NottsClaret wrote:Ask a Stoke fan how much they loved it this season, being the definition of a bog standard Championship team. Or Middlesboro.

I genuinely don't know, maybe they did like it. Perhaps knowing your place and trading points with QPR and Preston is better than seeing the likes of David Silva, Van Dijk, Ageuro and Aubameyang, with a few famous, never to be forgotten victories against the big boys.

The fact we seem to get 21,460 fans turn up at pretty much every game at the moment is making me think, for most people, the Prem is the better place to be.

Spot on, in addition to that we must remind ourselves what a financial struggle it was in the Championship, had we not got promoted in 2009 SD May have inherited a League 1 side. Crowds of 9_10000 would soon return if we didn't get promoted, we cannot afford to stay in the Championship too long

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Woodleyclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 10:56 am

Afraid so .despite all the shite refs weve had and winging foreign managers nonsense weve been forced to listen to by Sky.
Our games have been frustrating and exciting in equal measure.
We are establishing ourselves as a regular member of the Premier League
I am old school and watched us wimp out of Div1 and cascade down the leagues with a series of inept managers and a board that was cluless.
Now we have a great manager and chairman and we are up were I consider we belong UTC

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby JTClaret » Mon May 13, 2019 11:11 am

I can't say I even understand this question.
In effect it's asking would you rather drop down a level to see a slightly lower quality football hoping to win promotion to a league you don't want to be in because it's too hard
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby IanMcL » Mon May 13, 2019 11:14 am

We have grown, in the prem.
We can compete, with every team. Some better than others!

Europe.

Strong squad.

Infrastructure of the club dramatically improved.

Profile worldwide.

Burnley in the Community able to make a huge difference.

Burnley is the better for it.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby FactualFrank » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 am

The longer we stay in the Premier League the more we'll be able to invest in things like we did with the training ground. We can invest more in the youth set up, keep upgrading the stadium, buy better players etc. The target has surely to keep getting better and money is what enables us to do that. To be happier in a lower division surely removes the whole point of football - to keep getting promotion and be in the highest division you can possibly be in - then keep improving and bit by bit improve the true position, which for us has got to be firstly a solid mid-table team.

From then on a team aims to improve and become a consistent top 10 club, then a top 6 and so on. Regardless of whether that happens, that still has to be the goal. Otherwise, why bother.

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Chester Perry
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Chester Perry » Mon May 13, 2019 11:31 am

Under current ownership (and I do not want to see a change) it is one of 3 scenarios given our size, that we will fall into:

- stay in the Premier League, occasionally have an outstanding season, but target always will be 17th or higher (the attrition of this will eventually wear people down until they want some kind, any kind, of change, whatever the consequence)
- get relegated and seek an immediate return (under new parachute rules this ideally needs to be in first 2 seasons or the downsizing kicks in hard)
- get relegated, don't go back up under parachute payments, downsize, become a smallfry in the Championship as almost everyone else is owned by a billionaire happy to chuck money at it and bounce betwen that Championship and League 1

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby FactualFrank » Mon May 13, 2019 11:51 am

Given we finished 7th last season and I'm sure we'll be in the top 10 for form in 2019, I don't see why mid table away from any real thread of relegation, can't be realistic.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 12:01 pm

Yes

Next!

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby ClaretTony » Mon May 13, 2019 12:03 pm

Nothing can ever be the be all and end all but I want Burnley Football Club to be the very best it can be and that means playing in the highest league it can possibly play in. Not only that, being in this league is allowing our club to build on so many levels. I'm looking forward to us being able to say we've stayed in the Premier League for the 2020/21 season.

Then I read things like this:

jrgbfc wrote:Not for me. If our only intention is finishing 17th and not bothering with the Cups then I wouldn't be that bothered if we got relegated.


How can a supporter not be bothered if we got relegated? And who said our intention is finishing 17th?

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theroyaldyche
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby theroyaldyche » Mon May 13, 2019 12:06 pm

I preferred the championship so again i 2nd for not arsed if we went down. As long as we came back up

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby claretonthecoast1882 » Mon May 13, 2019 12:07 pm

ClaretTony wrote:Nothing can ever be the be all and end all but I want Burnley Football Club to be the very best it can be and that means playing in the highest league it can possibly play in. Not only that, being in this league is allowing our club to build on so many levels. I'm looking forward to us being able to say we've stayed in the Premier League for the 2020/21 season.

Then I read things like this:



How can a supporter not be bothered if we got relegated? And who said our intention is finishing 17th?



Not much a shock that line from him, hes negative about most things.

It seems a popular notion among the thick that by aiming to build year on year equates to aiming for 17th

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Dy1geo » Mon May 13, 2019 12:17 pm

Playing in the highest league that you can should always be the aim but for the top 6 the rest are scrapping to first avoid the drop and then a Europa League spot which to smaller clubs is a poisoned chalice.

The fear of relegation affects the quality in many matches and a tweak I would make is scrap a point for a Nil Nil draw. This would force teams to be more expansive, you wouldn’t have Matt Ryan taking 40 seconds for each goal kick which wouldn’t happen in the championship.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby LoveCurryPies » Mon May 13, 2019 12:28 pm

alf_resco wrote:Quite a few of the folk I associate with....


You can call them Losers. :lol:
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Herts Clarets » Mon May 13, 2019 12:31 pm

If you are competing in something, whatever that may be - sport, work, life, surely the aim is to be the best you can possibly be? My philosophy is that I can accept losing to a better person or team. I may not be happy with it and I may well go away and see how I could improve what I have in order to not lose the next time. If it is clear that no matter what I do, I cannot win then I accept that I have done all that I can.

Pretty sure that sits alongside the way the club is run at present. So to answer the original question, yes it is because it is the peak level that we can achieve.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby HatfieldClaret » Mon May 13, 2019 12:34 pm

Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Obviously not for Brighton !! :shock:

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby bfcjg » Mon May 13, 2019 12:50 pm

It is the place to be. I must admit though I have become a Premier league snob and now pay scant regard to play offs etc involving the bottom 2 divisions and only have interest in the championship come the business end to see who we will be playing.

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Dark Cloud
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Dark Cloud » Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm

Yes, but clubs do (apparently) survive outside it.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby bfcmik » Mon May 13, 2019 1:13 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Obviously not for Brighton !! :shock:

A lot of fans had turned on Hughton after their dismal run of form since we beat them before Christmas. They have taken less than half the points we have since then. Brighton fans seem to have become, "We have a nice new stadium and a rich owner so we should be competing with the rich clubs up at the top!" quietly forgetting the years spent tramping around playing home games at other clubs grounds or even at a local athletics track whilst holding out begging buckets.

SD said in a recent interview that he believes Burnley fans, "Get it.", and generally understand and accept the reality of where we are and where our place is in the market. Over the last 137 years we have generally been a small fish in the football pond. We have had a couple of spells where we were able to compete with the big boys in the League (around WW1 and in the late 1950s and early 1960s) but they have been the exception rather than the rule. The challenge for a club, and town, like ours is be the best it can, whether than is good enough or not. I look at our squad and compare it with our opponents of the day asking myself how many of our players would get into the other team's squad and usually the answer is either 0 or a low single digit number.

The Football League was never as open and competitive as people seem to remember it being. There have always been big clubs who would be challenging most seasons. Teams such as United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton always had more money and more resources and more regular success than the rest.
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Bosscat » Mon May 13, 2019 1:27 pm

alf_resco wrote:We survived.
Again.
Everyone seems to be happy.
Fine. I am too.
But to what end?
Next season will be exactly the same; scrapping and scraping the odd point or three off the 13 other also-rans in another effort to stay at the "top table."
History shows we don't compete/can't be arsed in the cups.
So, same old, same old?
Are we all happy with this scenario ad infinitum?


We all enjoyed that....

But exactly what do you expect....

We proved ourselves ahead of the Championship level in our previous 2 seasons.

If you win the Championship you get promoted and don't play at that level :lol:

We have proved ourselves at Premier League level by retaining our status for a 4th term.

Last season we finished 7th and gained our 1st taste of European Football in 50+ years.
Yes that created a perfect storm which we struggled with but..... we gained a lot of experience from that, and in the 2nd half of the season we proved last seasons 7th spot wasn't a fluke.

Now with the academy ticking along nicely and the improvements to the training ground.... Assuming Mr Rigg proves himself on the recruitment side....

So to answer your question its a huge YES from me to staying in the Premier League and improving year on year
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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Erasmus » Mon May 13, 2019 1:44 pm

I certainly want us to stay in the Premier League although I can well understand those who would be happier in the Championship. And to be honest, I won't be that upset when we do go down. But on balance the pleasure of competing at this level and having the chance of upsetting the rich teams keeps the enthusiasm up. Our only realistic aim year on year is just to get to 17th place. Anything else is a bonus.

However, it's tough going into pretty much every game knowing that the opposition has better players than we do. I really felt for the players yesterday with it being so hot and not really having anything to play for whilst trying to compete with some of the best players in the world. And credit to them for putting in such a great performance, which probably would have yielded a positive result but for two crucial incidents.

I am also just introducing my six-year-old boy to going and he doesn't care whether we are playing Manchester City or Rotherham United, he just wants Burnley to win. Yesterday when we went two down I saw his bottom lip start to quiver and his eyes went a bit watery, but when he sees us win he is so unbelievable happy. So I have a bit of a vested interest in seeing Burnley play weaker teams and being more likely to make the little fellow happy.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Hipper » Mon May 13, 2019 1:58 pm

Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

No.

A viable club is the most important thing. My worst fear is not falling down the leagues but the club folding. Fans of my age will have lived through falling down the leagues and of course it is not nice. However, the day of the Orient game (do I get bonus points for being the first to mention that on this thread?) had a real fear to it that I wouldn't want others to experience - this could have been the last game.

Given that, I still want our club to do the best they can. At the moment that is what we are doing. Given the financial state of today's game we have every reason to be proud.

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Re: Is staying in the Prem the be all and end all?

Postby Hipper » Mon May 13, 2019 2:01 pm

Erasmus wrote:I am also just introducing my six-year-old boy to going and he doesn't care whether we are playing Manchester City or Rotherham United, he just wants Burnley to win. Yesterday when we went two down I saw his bottom lip start to quiver and his eyes went a bit watery, but when he sees us win he is so unbelievable happy. So I have a bit of a vested interest in seeing Burnley play weaker teams and being more likely to make the little fellow happy.


Whilst I don't want to interfere in how you bring your son up I can't help thinking that you should try and wean him off being so involved with the club and its results. I was like that, and still am if I see a Burnley match, and I'm not sure it is a good thing to be lumbered with.


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