European Elections - Apols .....

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 10:44 pm

Damo wrote:The problem you have here, is that it wasnt Farage who shafted the electorate.
You were all warned what would happen if people were denied what they voted for.
Looks like it's coming home to roost


Damo, everybody voted for their own bespoke personalised Brexit.

And now they think Farage will deliver that personal bespoke personalised Brexit.

I'm just glad I'm not wired that way to be honest.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Mon May 13, 2019 11:08 pm

Why did I not get it before. Of course.
People who voted leave did so for many different reasons. While people who voted remain all did so for the same singular reason.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Elizabeth wrote:Why did I not get it before. Of course.
People who voted leave did so for many different reasons. While people who voted remain all did so for the same singular reason.


Correct

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Mon May 13, 2019 11:12 pm

Is that it , please expand and tell us all what that same singular reason was

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby aggi » Mon May 13, 2019 11:12 pm

Bordeauxclaret wrote:I’m every other poster apart from you and Ringo.


You can't be Greenmile, he's me.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Mon May 13, 2019 11:14 pm

Keep the runway clear, a plane is due to land

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 11:20 pm

People who voted to remain.

Voted to remain

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Mon May 13, 2019 11:21 pm

Why did they vote to remain is the question. I am awaiting the same reason you say every remain voter voted that way. Why?

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby If it be your will » Mon May 13, 2019 11:25 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:People who voted to remain.

Voted to remain

Did you vote for status quo remain or 'remain and reform'? If the latter, which area of the EU did you want to reform, how would you reform it, and over what time frame?

Then I'll ask how certain you are that everyone that voted remain voted for the same thing.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Mon May 13, 2019 11:26 pm

Look, I'm not going to stay up all night while you think of an answer that gives you any credibility.
You put yourself on the spot, I expect when I do see your second attempt it's a lot better than people voted to remain because they voted to remain

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 11:31 pm

You are far too weird to reply too Elizabeth

I'm going to nick one your sides favourite expression here ITBYW

"Remain meant Remain"

Leave, according to Farage et al meant whatever you wanted it to mean, which is 100% why we are in this position.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Paul Waine » Mon May 13, 2019 11:35 pm

I think what Lancs has said before is that the university educated, young people, who know about international trade agreements, and how the EU functions and, so long as the UK can always veto whatever doesn't suit the UK, voted to remain.

I forget whether there were any "realities" involved.

Or what order he's said it all in...

How am I doing, Lancs? Near enough?
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Mon May 13, 2019 11:39 pm

The fundamentals of what I said are unarguable.

There are lots and lots of reasons people have given to leave, but people who voted remain, voted remain to remain in the EU.

You lot have as many usernames as you like, but it doesn't change that!

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Bin Ont Turf » Mon May 13, 2019 11:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Leave, according to Farage et al meant whatever you wanted it to mean, which is 100% why we are in this position.



I think Farage has been clear from day 1 what Leave meant for him.

The reason we are in 'this position', is because of it just being a 'yes' or 'no' vote and the absolute car crash that is British politics at this time.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby nil_desperandum » Mon May 13, 2019 11:54 pm

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I think Farage has been clear from day 1 what Leave meant for him

.

So would that be the Norway option then, that he was supporting on QT just before the 2016 referendum? Or was it the Swiss model? He wasn't entirely clear, but either way he was proposing some form of deal involving Customs Union and / or Single Market.
He's been pretty consistent, however, in his desire to cut services, reduce the size of the state and privatise the NHS once we're out.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Test User » Tue May 14, 2019 12:29 am

Hipper wrote:It's not about individuals changing their mind. It's about respecting a decision already made by votes that most (in my case) who wanted something different then I did.

I still say I was right to vote 'Remain' but we must leave the EU. If we don't then something even more important then EU membership will be lost.


I'm not talking about individuals changing their mind. I'm talking about the electorate changing their mind. And if the electorate has changed its mind and we still carry out a decision we decided was really stupid, then we're the dumbest country on the planet.

Seriously, who the **** goes "ok, so i've decided to do this thing. Oh wait, actually that would be a disaster if I did that thing. Ah, but i already decided to do it so i have to do it."

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby AndyClaret » Tue May 14, 2019 7:44 am

Just a pre-warning to you lefties on here, this will be dropping on your door mats in the next few days.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 8:01 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:I think Farage has been clear from day 1 what Leave meant for him.

The reason we are in 'this position', is because of it just being a 'yes' or 'no' vote and the absolute car crash that is British politics at this time.


Yes, but people like Farage are stoking those who ignore reality. I mean, look at the support he has on here (if only because he says Brexit means Brexit)

Its so much easier to ignore reality, and Farage is saying you can.

No wonder he's getting so much support.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 8:02 am

AndyClaret wrote:Just a pre-warning to you lefties on here, this will be dropping on your door mats in the next few days.


Just in case any of you are in any doubt what sort of person andyclaret is.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 8:03 am

It’s actually got a voucher on the back for a free milkshake.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 8:09 am

I'm liking that there appears to be "Daily Drenchings" of various fascists in milk based products.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Hipper » Tue May 14, 2019 9:21 am

Test User wrote:I'm not talking about individuals changing their mind. I'm talking about the electorate changing their mind. And if the electorate has changed its mind and we still carry out a decision we decided was really stupid, then we're the dumbest country on the planet.

Seriously, who the **** goes "ok, so i've decided to do this thing. Oh wait, actually that would be a disaster if I did that thing. Ah, but i already decided to do it so i have to do it."


Individuals make up the electorate. If sufficient of them change their mind the result will be different.

Making a decision in a referendum is not like an individual making a decision and then finding it was wrong.

We voted to advise the government of our wishes, based on our gut feeling tinkered to varying degrees by all the information/misinformation that was around at the time. The government then has to work out whether to implement the advice - it chose to do so - and how to do it. It's the 'how to do it' that is causing problems. These problems should not be insurmountable but unfortunately the darker arts of politics have been employed by some, along with some bad mistakes or misjudgements.

Therefore if the electorate does change its mind it is likely not because of the reasons for their choice at the time but more likely because we see our political system unable to deliver our wishes.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Hipper » Tue May 14, 2019 9:27 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:The fundamentals of what I said are unarguable.

There are lots and lots of reasons people have given to leave, but people who voted remain, voted remain to remain in the EU.

You lot have as many usernames as you like, but it doesn't change that!


I voted remain.

I voted for two main reasons: I was OK with our membership of the EU and its vagaries; and I didn't want ten years or more of upheaval that would happen with 'Leave'.

I didn't think of it at the time but it is clear that leaving the EU will weaken this country on the world stage as well as adding strength to those that want to break up the UK. I would guess dealing with the big issues coming to us now - climate change, species demise, food security, migration - will be more effective with membership of the EU.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Damo » Tue May 14, 2019 9:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Damo, everybody voted for their own bespoke personalised Brexit.

And now they think Farage will deliver that personal bespoke personalised Brexit.

I'm just glad I'm not wired that way to be honest.

I think you are about to see what kind of Brexit people want

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Elizabeth » Tue May 14, 2019 9:49 am

I respect your reasons for voting remain hipper and they add to the debate on what is a complicated issue for the electorate as a whole to digest.
So much better that those saying I voted to remain because I wanted to remain. They say they are using terminology of leave voters. Strange considering they so despise those voters.
They look down on those who voted to leave but when pressed the only thing they have is to resort to personal abuse, attempting to stifle debate. As if they are running scared and don't want to deal with the reality that there are strong views on both sides and both need to be heard.
My point last night was that I am sure that remain voters had more than one reason to vote the way they did. Very similar to the leave voters. Of course this is too much for those who can only say I voted remain to remain.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 9:52 am

Damo wrote:I think you are about to see what kind of Brexit people want


I'm not, cos people are voting for him because he's telling them how easy its going to be.

You'd think people might have learnt its not going to be by now, but its always easier to ignore reality isn't it?

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 9:53 am

Elizabeth wrote:I respect your reasons for voting remain hipper and they add to the debate on what is a complicated issue for the electorate as a whole to digest.
So much better that those saying I voted to remain because I wanted to remain. They say they are using terminology of leave voters. Strange considering they so despise those voters.
They look down on those who voted to leave but when pressed the only thing they have is to resort to personal abuse, attempting to stifle debate. As if they are running scared and don't want to deal with the reality that there are strong views on both sides and both need to be heard.
My point last night was that I am sure that remain voters had more than one reason to vote the way they did. Very similar to the leave voters. Of course this is too much for those who can only say I voted remain to remain.


You are trying far too hard.

I don't think this person is Ringo, but its someone trying to be him to try to get us to think its is him.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Bordeauxclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 10:02 am

If Elizabeth can understand what evidence means and explain how the block function works on here then it’s definitely not Ringo.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby AndyClaret » Tue May 14, 2019 10:23 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just in case any of you are in any doubt what sort of person andyclaret is.


It was just a warning, I know how much he triggers you.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 10:25 am

AndyClaret wrote:It was just a warning, I know how much he triggers you.


I know how much you love him.

Bet you creamed your pants when you found out you could actually vote for him

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Mala591 » Tue May 14, 2019 10:32 am

Forget voting for the Conservatives or Labour. The EU elections are a confirmatory Brexit vote.

Brexit party if you want Brexit to go ahead
Liberal Democratic vote if you want Brexit to be stopped

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue May 14, 2019 10:39 am

Mala591 wrote:Forget voting for the Conservatives or Labour. The EU elections are a confirmatory Brexit vote.

Brexit party if you want Brexit to go ahead
Liberal Democratic vote if you want Brexit to be stopped


But what about those people - probably the majority, who don't want a "no deal" brexit? Who do you recommend they vote for? (Labour??)

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue May 14, 2019 10:45 am

On that Tommy Robinson / Child Sexual Grooming leaflet, there is one thing that genuinely puzzles me about the liberal left.

They profess to stand for poorer people rather than richer people, and are the first to leap on any issue such as food banks and poverty. This message board demonstrates this over and over.

But on this issue, where tens of thousands of victims have their lives ruined by (predominantly) Asian gangs, they are silent, or, if not silent, virtually silent. The same for the media, where the BBC I recall has done less interview hours on this topic than far less important things like, say, MP expenses.

I genuinely don’t understand the mentality. I’m not fishing. It is arguably the biggest tragedy of our generation in our own country.

That’s why the odious Tommy Robinson has a gap to exploit. He shouldn’t have one. The liberal left should hang their heads in shame.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby AndyClaret » Tue May 14, 2019 10:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I know how much you love him.

Bet you creamed your pants when you found out you could actually vote for him


Not really, already voted brexit party.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 10:50 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:On that Tommy Robinson / Child Sexual Grooming leaflet, there is one thing that genuinely puzzles me about the liberal left.

They profess to stand for poorer people rather than richer people, and are the first to leap on any issue such as food banks and poverty. This message board demonstrates this over and over.

But on this issue, where tens of thousands of victims have their lives ruined by (predominantly) Asian gangs, they are silent, or, if not silent, virtually silent. The same for the media, where the BBC I recall has done less interview hours on this topic than far less important things like, say, MP expenses.

I genuinely don’t understand the mentality. I’m not fishing. It is arguably the biggest tragedy of our generation in our own country.

That’s why the odious Tommy Robinson has a gap to exploit. He shouldn’t have one. The liberal left should hang their heads in shame.


Bullshit. Even by your disingenuous standards, that is a new low for you.
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Damo » Tue May 14, 2019 11:05 am

nil_desperandum wrote:But what about those people - probably the majority, who don't want a "no deal" brexit? Who do you recommend they vote for? (Labour??)

Would of thought that was quite obvious.
Both Labour and the Tories offer a managed, watered down Brexit.
Let's see how they get on shall we

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Test User » Tue May 14, 2019 11:05 am

Hipper wrote:Individuals make up the electorate. If sufficient of them change their mind the result will be different.

Making a decision in a referendum is not like an individual making a decision and then finding it was wrong.

We voted to advise the government of our wishes, based on our gut feeling tinkered to varying degrees by all the information/misinformation that was around at the time. The government then has to work out whether to implement the advice - it chose to do so - and how to do it. It's the 'how to do it' that is causing problems. These problems should not be insurmountable but unfortunately the darker arts of politics have been employed by some, along with some bad mistakes or misjudgements.

Therefore if the electorate does change its mind it is likely not because of the reasons for their choice at the time but more likely because we see our political system unable to deliver our wishes.


Again, if we decide we want something that turns out to be undeliverable then it seem to me to be a perfectly good reason for us to change our mind.

And why does the electorate changing their mind have to be treated differently to an individual changing their mind when applying logic? You asserted that it is without explaining how and why.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue May 14, 2019 11:44 am

Damo wrote:Would of thought that was quite obvious.
Both Labour and the Tories offer a managed, watered down Brexit.
Let's see how they get on shall we

Well obviously as you state, but my response was to Mala who made it out to be a binary choice. (No deal or no brexit)
With regards to how they get on, current polls suggest that Lab + Con will be approx one third, Brexit Party approx one third, and "Remain" parties ditto. Therein lies the problem, and I think that's the argument for some kind of confirmatory vote, (unpalatable as it seems in many respect).

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby aggi » Tue May 14, 2019 12:04 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:On that Tommy Robinson / Child Sexual Grooming leaflet, there is one thing that genuinely puzzles me about the liberal left.

They profess to stand for poorer people rather than richer people, and are the first to leap on any issue such as food banks and poverty. This message board demonstrates this over and over.

But on this issue, where tens of thousands of victims have their lives ruined by (predominantly) Asian gangs, they are silent, or, if not silent, virtually silent. The same for the media, where the BBC I recall has done less interview hours on this topic than far less important things like, say, MP expenses.

I genuinely don’t understand the mentality. I’m not fishing. It is arguably the biggest tragedy of our generation in our own country.

That’s why the odious Tommy Robinson has a gap to exploit. He shouldn’t have one. The liberal left should hang their heads in shame.


Firstly, I don't really buy your premise that the media has been silent on this. There are countless stories, analysis pieces, interviews, dramatisations, etc on outlets such as the BBC or Guardian. There were establishment issues in the past, no-one is denying that, but if you want people to agree with your view you're going to have to provide some evidence.

Secondly, Asian grooming gangs are an issue, but whether they should be focused on to such an extent compared to other offences is debatable. The vast majority (90% or so) of sex offences against children are committed by white men. (There was a largely discredited Quilliam report suggesting that grooming gangs were vastly Asian based but that wasn't the best researched of pieces.) Judging by that we'd expect the coverage of Asian grooming gangs to be a relatively small part of the greater dialogue on sex crimes against children.

Just because Tommy tells people it's being ignored that doesn't mean it's true. Let's be honest, he was stood on the courtroom steps, where a grooming gang was being tried, complaining that authorities were ignoring the issue. The contradiction is pretty obvious there.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Damo » Tue May 14, 2019 12:25 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Well obviously as you state, but my response was to Mala who made it out to be a binary choice. (No deal or no brexit)
With regards to how they get on, current polls suggest that Lab + Con will be approx one third, Brexit Party approx one third, and "Remain" parties ditto. Therein lies the problem, and I think that's the argument for some kind of confirmatory vote, (unpalatable as it seems in many respect).

I take your point, but can we agree that a percentage of labour and Tory votes will be from it's hard core supporters, who would never vote any other way?

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Dy1geo » Tue May 14, 2019 12:39 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Well obviously as you state, but my response was to Mala who made it out to be a binary choice. (No deal or no brexit)
With regards to how they get on, current polls suggest that Lab + Con will be approx one third, Brexit Party approx one third, and "Remain" parties ditto. Therein lies the problem, and I think that's the argument for some kind of confirmatory vote, (unpalatable as it seems in many respect).


This forum sums up the current position the country faces regarding Brexit with those on the Remain side saying that those that voted Leave didn’t know what they were voting for whilst at the same time being adamant about why everyone voted Remain and those on the Leave side saying they knew exactly what they voted for and the Remain didn’t when the reality is somewhat in the middle.

I think the only way out of this is to go again to the public not with the “stitched” up question of May’s deal or remain but a genuine leave (No deal/WTO) or remain with both sides confirming they will honour the result.

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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby If it be your will » Tue May 14, 2019 12:40 pm

Test User wrote:Again, if we decide we want something that turns out to be undeliverable then it seem to me to be a perfectly good reason for us to change our mind.

And why does the electorate changing their mind have to be treated differently to an individual changing their mind when applying logic? You asserted that it is without explaining how and why.

I'm not particularly disagreeing with the logic of having another vote. I have concerns about it (mainly about the precise question that will be put), but no logical problem with it. Electorates should be allowed to change their mind, especially if circumstances change.

Right, another non-hostile question: Should the electorates of the EU - at least the ones that were asked in the first place - also have the opportunity to change their minds about whether they should have ratified Maastricht and/or Lisbon? That is, should there be a confirmatory referendum in each EU country, maybe every 20 years to check that they haven't changed their minds? Or should these treaties be permanent, with no realistic prospect of repealing them?

I'm genuinely interested in how far you go with the 'Electorates should be allowed to change their minds' hypothesis.

# 43
nil_desperandum
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby nil_desperandum » Tue May 14, 2019 12:56 pm

Damo wrote:I take your point, but can we agree that a percentage of labour and Tory votes will be from it's hard core supporters, who would never vote any other way?

Totally agree, but let's also agree, that in all likelihood they cancel each other out. (This by the way, is why I hate the FPTP politics that makes a large percentage of seats virtually incapable of change and renders many votes in many constituencies redundant).

# 44
Lancasterclaret
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 1:01 pm

The biggest reason for another vote is that is solves the issue for long enough to get some other stuff done.

Nothing else will

# 45
Devils_Advocate
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Devils_Advocate » Tue May 14, 2019 1:15 pm

Dy1geo wrote:This forum sums up the current position the country faces regarding Brexit with those on the Remain side saying that those that voted Leave didn’t know what they were voting for whilst at the same time being adamant about why everyone voted Remain and those on the Leave side saying they knew exactly what they voted for and the Remain didn’t when the reality is somewhat in the middle.

I think its slightly more nuanced than this. I don't think its a case of believing that people who voted leave didn't know what they voted for. I think the argument is the majority knew very much so why they voted leave but due to the complexity of leaving and the simplicity of the question the range of what leave meant to different people is very far stretching and so nigh on impossible to implement.

In contrast whilst Remain voters may have had all sorts of different reasons to remain and different views on how the future of our relationship of the EU should be shaped ultimately a vote to remain was very clear in its instruction and ease to implement
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# 46
If it be your will
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby If it be your will » Tue May 14, 2019 1:56 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I think its slightly more nuanced than this. I don't think its a case of believing that people who voted leave didn't know what they voted for. I think the argument is the majority knew very much so why they voted leave but due to the complexity of leaving and the simplicity of the question the range of what leave meant to different people is very far stretching and so nigh on impossible to implement.

In contrast whilst Remain voters may have had all sorts of different reasons to remain and different views on how the future of our relationship of the EU should be shaped ultimately a vote to remain was very clear in its instruction and ease to implement

You agree:
Leave voters wanted different things from/had different reasons for leave.
Remain voters wanted different things from/had different reasons for remain.

So how to interpret and act on either result going forward would be equally difficult. What you've done is point out an inherent intellectual weakness of a referendum, not the result.

This whole argument about the choice of remain being obvious and the choice of leave 'could've meant anything' is, and always was, a complete non-starter. It carries no rational weight whatsoever. If remainers want to overturn the result, they have to come up with a more compelling reason than this.

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Damo
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Damo » Tue May 14, 2019 2:51 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Totally agree, but let's also agree, that in all likelihood they cancel each other out. (This by the way, is why I hate the FPTP politics that makes a large percentage of seats virtually incapable of change and renders many votes in many constituencies redundant).

No, I'm not sure that's true. Anyone who votes for the Brexit party will be doing so for the first time. For one reason

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Lancasterclaret
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Talking about reasons why the referendum was dodgy

https://twitter.com/Len_Duvall/status/1 ... 0830307328

# 49
Lancasterclaret
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby Lancasterclaret » Tue May 14, 2019 4:10 pm

And full contempt of court proceeding for the worlds thickest racist as well

Looking like a nice day for the good guys!

https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1128315202787782658

# 50
CrosspoolClarets
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Re: European Elections - Apols .....

Postby CrosspoolClarets » Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Bullshit. Even by your disingenuous standards, that is a new low for you.


Hyper liberals don’t like being called out Lancs, but all the moral grandstanding doesn’t wash with me unless they can answer the point I raised, which noticeably you didn’t.

I’m not just singling out one or two parties either - today the wonderful Sarah Champion of Labour has complained that the Home Secretary has quietly shelved his review into grooming ethnicity. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/on-this_uk_5cd98afee4b0b0e70ab39f99

It’s a fact that the BBC have done minimal reporting on this issue (I remember research on it)
It’s a fact that Channel 4 have done even less than the BBC.
It’s a fact that politicians have avoided publicity on this too.
It’s a fact that liberals avoid it like the plague - stats as to how many times it trends on Twitter demonstrate this

I’m not professing to be morally superior. But I sure as hell ain’t admitting to be worse because that is the common accusation thrown at anyone on here who isn’t socially far left. It’s the biggest load of nonsense around, and there are some big rivals for that award.

I repeat - if we had a culture where things could be discussed and investigated equally, irrelevant of race, gender, sexuality or wealth, the likes of Tommy Robinson (or Farage, though he is not as bad) would have no oxygen to operate, and the country would be a far better place.
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