War with Iran

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:55 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The owner of one of the ships attacked is saying the US is wrong about the attack, in quite significant ways i think too.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/japanese- ... ulf-attack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All I'll say about that is a missile is bloody hard to see, especially when you are on the bridge of a supertanker.

Not saying he's not right (there are loads of questions about the mines story for starters) but I'd want a lot more than that if I was trying to find out who or what was behind these attacks.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Stayingup » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:29 am

AndrewJB wrote:I would say the opposite. I don’t get the impression Trump is good at taking advice from people who know what they’re doing (rather seems to prefer yes-men), and running a business (in his case into the ground in several instances) is vastly different to leading foreign policy. Being unpredictable - as Saddam Hussain, and other similar leaders have been will only take you so far.
You wouldn't say the opposite to what exactly? Iran has used the money they got from selling their oil to fund terrorism by proxy. Relaxing of sanctions by the Obama regime and the West brought them a windfall. Unfortunatley that windfall was not spent on the Iranian people. Iran has a poison regime, with their subjugation of women and their terrorist activities in the middle East and also in Europe. Its looking like they are responsible for attacking oil tankers in the Gulf of Hormuz? Did you kniw that the people of Iran are desperate to rid themselves of this corrupt reggressive regime.. If Trump can help to get of rid of them the very talented Iranaian people would be happier and would prosper.
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Spijed » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:44 am

Stayingup wrote:You wouldn't say the opposite to what exactly? Iran has used the money they got from selling their oil to fund terrorism by proxy. Relaxing of sanctions by the Obama regime and the West brought them a windfall. Unfortunatley that windfall was not spent on the Iranian people. Iran has a poison regime, with their subjugation of women and their terrorist activities in the middle East and also in Europe. Its looking like they are responsible for attacking oil tankers in the Gulf of Hormuz? Did you kniw that the people of Iran are desperate to rid themselves of this corrupt reggressive regime.. If Trump can help to get of rid of them the very talented Iranaian people would be happier and would prosper.
What a pile of rubbish you've written!

The only reason the West is looking for a war is that Iran doesn't buy military equipment.

What makes attacking Iran any different from getting rid of Saddam Hussian, for example?

As for the people of Iran, they seem far happier with their lot, than those who live in Saudi Arabia, a brutal regime which is far worse than Isis. The women get stoned to death for simply accusing men of rape.

Need I go on?

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Re: War with Iran

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:56 am

The terrorists best friend has shown his hand again.
Heaven help us if he ever becomes PM.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-corbyn ... 51311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Spijed » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:04 am

bfcjg wrote:The terrorists best friend has shown his hand again.
Heaven help us if he ever becomes PM.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-corbyn ... 51311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Funny how Blair was seen as the enemy for bombing Iraq, yet Corbyn is seen as the enemy for NOT wanting to bomb Iran.
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Re: War with Iran

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:18 am

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Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:26 am

What's happened to "Test User" - what does s/he have to say on the latest situation?

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Stayingup » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:30 am

Spijed wrote:What a pile of rubbish you've written!

The only reason the West is looking for a war is that Iran doesn't buy military equipment.

What makes attacking Iran any different from getting rid of Saddam Hussian, for example?

As for the people of Iran, they seem far happier with their lot, than those who live in Saudi Arabia, a brutal regime which is far worse than Isis. The women get stoned to death for simply accusing men of rape.

Need I go on?
Actually I don't know what your talking about. Whats a load of rubbish?

Its Iran who is doing the provoking here and looking for a war.

Why have you mentioned Saudii Arabia? Whats their involvement here?

If, like me, you know some Iranian people you would know what I am talking about. They are good business people but cant operate under the conditions brought a out by this regime. Those are their words to me. There is nothing in the shops to buy and India apart they cant trade internationally - though some bisiness has gone through Germany. If you know better fair enough. If not shut up
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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:29 pm

bfcjg wrote:The terrorists best friend has shown his hand again.
Heaven help us if he ever becomes PM.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jeremy-corbyn ... 51311.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You're probably one of those people who thinks Corbyn hates the members of our armed forces and is unpatriotic - because there's no greater way of showing your love for our serving personnel than sending them off to die in a pointless military operation, designed more to show solidarity with a maniac president, than any credible military objective.

Let's try to imagine Corbyn's thinking back in the early eighties: "Okay, I hate the UK so the best thing for me to do is become a member of parliament! And as a further expression of my hatred toward Britain, I'm going to not fiddle my expenses! Ha! That'll show them!"

Why bother thinking, when you can just download all of your opinions from the Daily Mail's editorial page?
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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:40 pm

Stayingup wrote:Actually I don't know what your talking about. Whats a load of rubbish?

Its Iran who is doing the provoking here and looking for a war.

Why have you mentioned Saudii Arabia? Whats their involvement here?

If, like me, you know some Iranian people you would know what I am talking about. They are good business people but cant operate under the conditions brought a out by this regime. Those are their words to me. There is nothing in the shops to buy and India apart they cant trade internationally - though some bisiness has gone through Germany. If you know better fair enough. If not shut up
Do you think those business people are having a hard time because the US re-imposed sanctions?

I know a few American citizens here who would love a bit of regime change at home. A new president who doesn't fund terror abroad, but I don't think they'd welcome a coalition of countries formed to bomb the bejesus out of them and invade. Beyond this within Iran do you think it's the moderates or the hardliners who would push for conflict? If you picked hardliners I'd say you're right, and they do this in order to keep a lid on domestic dissent. So if our aim is to promote the elevation of moderates, and undermine the hardliners within Iran, why would we start giving the hardliners what they want?

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Spijed wrote:What a pile of rubbish you've written!

The only reason the West is looking for a war is that Iran doesn't buy military equipment.

What makes attacking Iran any different from getting rid of Saddam Hussian, for example?

As for the people of Iran, they seem far happier with their lot, than those who live in Saudi Arabia, a brutal regime which is far worse than Isis. The women get stoned to death for simply accusing men of rape.

Need I go on?
Thats crap mate

Iran is as bonkers about its religion as Saudi is, and just as ruthless. Its two shitty regimes who don't like each other because they both see themselves as the regional superpower.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:19 pm

AndrewJB wrote:You're probably one of those people who thinks Corbyn hates the members of our armed forces and is unpatriotic - because there's no greater way of showing your love for our serving personnel than sending them off to die in a pointless military operation, designed more to show solidarity with a maniac president, than any credible military objective.

Let's try to imagine Corbyn's thinking back in the early eighties: "Okay, I hate the UK so the best thing for me to do is become a member of parliament! And as a further expression of my hatred toward Britain, I'm going to not fiddle my expenses! Ha! That'll show them!"

Why bother thinking, when you can just download all of your opinions from the Daily Mail's editorial page?
Ignoring the clear ******** of Daily Mail editorials, there is no doubt that Corbyn listens more to "Stop the War" than M16.

Which isn't sensible and one of the reasons he'll never be PM.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:21 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The owner of one of the ships attacked is saying the US is wrong about the attack, in quite significant ways i think too.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/japanese- ... ulf-attack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If it was a missile the small impact hole means it could have only been a small basic shoulder mounted missile or RPG which would have had to been fired for quite a close range from a nearby boat/ship in visual range, no mentions of that in the report.

A proper anti-ship missile, even older models, coming in low across the water from over the horizon would have caused massive damage.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:36 pm

CombatClaret wrote:If it was a missile the small impact hole means it could have only been a small basic shoulder mounted missile or RPG which would have had to been fired for quite a close range from a nearby boat/ship in visual range, no mentions of that in the report.

A proper anti-ship missile, even older models, coming in low across the water from over the horizon would have caused massive damage.
When HMS Sheffield was attacked in the Falklands, even a trained navy crew in a war zone on a ship specifically designed to deal with attacks by missles from the air failed to realise it was a missile until it almost hit.

And missiles come in low, and the pop up last minute before plunging down onto the ship.

The chances of the Captain of a commercial supertanker being in the right place at the right time to see a small missile coming in is low (and to know what it was) enough to discount it as credible evidence

I doubt the mine one as well, as surely all you'd do is scatter the mines in the Straits to hit something.

Its going to be an RPG or similar fired from a small patrol craft. its what Iran has been using to try to close the Straits of Hormuz since the 1980s and one thing theocracies ruled by a book written over a thousand years ago are really, really really good at is not changing stuff. Ever.

EDIT - This isn't call for war against Iran, because that would be mad. What it is a realistic look at what is happening in the Gulf, and that people need to exercise extreme caution before doing anything.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:34 pm

CombatClaret wrote:If it was a missile the small impact hole means it could have only been a small basic shoulder mounted missile or RPG which would have had to been fired for quite a close range from a nearby boat/ship in visual range, no mentions of that in the report.

A proper anti-ship missile, even older models, coming in low across the water from over the horizon would have caused massive damage.
True, but then they also don't say anything about seeing some dudes rocking up in a boat or scuba gear and strapping a mine to their hull. And if it was a mine then that wouldn't explain why the sailors reported seeing objects flying towards them prior to the explosion.

Maybe the US is right. Maybe they're not bullshitting yet again to create a context for war against an oil rich country in the middle east.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:When HMS Sheffield was attacked in the Falklands, even a trained navy crew in a war zone on a ship specifically designed to deal with attacks by missles from the air failed to realise it was a missile until it almost hit.

And missiles come in low, and the pop up last minute before plunging down onto the ship.

The chances of the Captain of a commercial supertanker being in the right place at the right time to see a small missile coming in is low (and to know what it was) enough to discount it as credible evidence

I doubt the mine one as well, as surely all you'd do is scatter the mines in the Straits to hit something.

Its going to be an RPG or similar fired from a small patrol craft. its what Iran has been using to try to close the Straits of Hormuz since the 1980s and one thing theocracies ruled by a book written over a thousand years ago are really, really really good at is not changing stuff. Ever.

EDIT - This isn't call for war against Iran, because that would be mad. What it is a realistic look at what is happening in the Gulf, and that people need to exercise extreme caution before doing anything.
There are more people on a tanker than just a captain. And they didn't claim to see a small missile. They don't know what it was they saw, otherwise they'd have stated what it was they saw. All they're saying is that they saw something flying at them.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:52 pm

Not arguing as a case for war but of the two separate incidents seems to point to Iran escalating tensions in the area.

That there is video evidence or an Iranian fast boat trying to remove possible evidence seems pretty cut and dry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-attacks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Vegas Claret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:53 pm

Seems that Trump is wanting a fight with the elections coming up next year, king of distraction

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:00 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Not arguing as a case for war but of the two separate incidents seems to point to Iran escalating tensions in the area.

That there is video evidence or an Iranian fast boat trying to remove possible evidence seems pretty cut and dry.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... er-attacks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does it not strike you as convenient that Iran would successfully explode 4 mines deployed by divers under the water line, but the one that doesn't explode happens to be above the water line and requires a boat full of people, (as opposed to a diver or two that could recover a below-waterline mine covertly) to recover which presumably wasn't required to deploy it in the first place? It just doesn't make sense.

But again, maybe i'm wrong. Maybe they're telling the truth. Maybe there's a flaw in my logic somewhere. If so then i'd love to hear it.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:10 pm

Anyone calling Trump a fascist really needs to wonder if they qualify to comment on political threads. Fascism is built on everyone working for the good of the Nation/ state, not individual success or profit. When it becomes all about “them” it is no longer fascism.
It is totalitarianism, not fascism.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by CombatClaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:35 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Does it not strike you as convenient that Iran would successfully explode 4 mines deployed by divers under the water line, but the one that doesn't explode happens to be above the water line and requires a boat full of people, (as opposed to a diver or two that could recover a below-waterline mine covertly) to recover which presumably wasn't required to deploy it in the first place? It just doesn't make sense.

But again, maybe i'm wrong. Maybe they're telling the truth. Maybe there's a flaw in my logic somewhere. If so then i'd love to hear it.
There maybe exceptions but divers are only usual employed again static targets for obvious reasons. Micro-subs have also been used in the past.

The 4 previous successful below the waterline attacks were all around a port area. While I've no evidence of this (I'm trying to find more info) it could mean the ships were operating at reduced speed or even stopped whilst transiting in and out of the port area. They could also have been in shallower waters. These things would make a diver or micro-sub operations far easier and safer.

The two more recent attacks the ships were definitely transiting the straight ie: moving.
I would assume the mine was in fact placed by a fast boat, but no one on board noticed. That's a common military practice/idea; a small fast boat of military specialists running with no lights at night pulling up to a large, loud ship with only a handful of unaware crew.

It's only after the explosion that scrutiny was applied to the ship and the night time operation to collect the un-exploded mine was seen.
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Stayingup » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Spijed wrote:Funny how Blair was seen as the enemy for bombing Iraq, yet Corbyn is seen as the enemy for NOT wanting to bomb Iran.

Nobody has said Corbyn is THE enemy even though he supports enemies of this country and the west. He was a standing joke in parliament and really still is. You need to grow up you do and kearn about the world as it actually is

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:58 pm

Stayingup wrote: [Corbyn] supports enemies of this country and the west.
:lol:

But an emergency budget was Project Fear, remember.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:09 pm

The suggestion that the USA is trying to spin a war is flawed. British Intelligence has little history in reality backing such claims.
Blair may have bullied them into the Iraq conclusions... but we refused all attempts to get us to follow the USA into Vietnam after we established that the South Vietnam ship was sunk by the US... and we paid a very heavy monetary price for refusing, bringing on the ‘no pot to **** in’ 1970’s that led to Thatcher.... but we refused to join the lie.

There seems very little debate at the top this time... it was Iran.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by box_of_frogs » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: And if it was a mine then that wouldn't explain why the sailors reported seeing objects flying towards them prior to the explosion.
Perhaps one of several UAVs that they would undoubtedly use to support their fast attacks getting into position?

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:14 pm

There are lots and lots and lots of people who hate the US thinking its impossible to be Iran.

Its quite an interesting position to be in, considering that they have more previous for this than the US has for regime change.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:50 pm

AndrewJB wrote:You're probably one of those people who thinks Corbyn hates the members of our armed forces and is unpatriotic - because there's no greater way of showing your love for our serving personnel than sending them off to die in a pointless military operation, designed more to show solidarity with a maniac president, than any credible military objective.

Let's try to imagine Corbyn's thinking back in the early eighties: "Okay, I hate the UK so the best thing for me to do is become a member of parliament! And as a further expression of my hatred toward Britain, I'm going to not fiddle my expenses! Ha! That'll show them!"

Why bother thinking, when you can just download all of your opinions from the Daily Mail's editorial page?
Where did I say he hates the UK and the armed forces ? Where did I say that we are looking for a war ? You really do jump to conclusions. The point made was he will always side with terrorists and governments who have paid him.
Th biggest threat to Israel and Jewish people is Iran, Corbyn will always side with enemies of Israel for some perverse reason.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:23 pm

The lab is back
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:37 pm

Not exactly a subtle attempt to sneak back on is it?

saying that, he's not gone all in on "Zionist worldwide conspiracy" yet

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Rileybobs » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Not exactly a subtle attempt to sneak back on is it?

saying that, he's not gone all in on "Zionist worldwide conspiracy" yet
I think the red bold text would have been a step too far as well. Best to phase these things in so everyone thinks it's just another anti-semite.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:16 pm

bfcjg wrote:Where did I say he hates the UK and the armed forces ? Where did I say that we are looking for a war ? You really do jump to conclusions. The point made was he will always side with terrorists and governments who have paid him.
Th biggest threat to Israel and Jewish people is Iran, Corbyn will always side with enemies of Israel for some perverse reason.
How can you accuse me of jumping to conclusions (I didn't say we were looking for a war, and said you were "probably"- not definitely - one of those who thinks Corbyn hates the armed forces), and then go and happily jump to the conclusion yourself that Corbyn is siding with our enemies? That is straight out of the Daily Mail, and it's bonkers.

Something I've noticed that enrages conservative minded people everywhere is historical honesty. In Canada where WW1 is seen as a national coming of age, some people get quite angry if you point out that Canadian soldiers often killed unarmed and wounded Germans. In the US you'll get the same reaction when you bring up their government training Central American death squads. In Britain some people hate to be reminded of our role in the slave trade. Corbyn refuses to play historical myth making (and this is where a lot of the "siding with the enemy" thing comes from), whether it's white-washing bad things, or overstating good ones. This clear-headedness is actually a huge strength, and you'll find that his record in parliament puts him on the right side of history a lot more than many other politicians. Iraq was an absolute disaster, and one of the tube bombers from 2005 specifically mentioned Iraq as one of the reasons for their actions. Libya is the same - all we've done is destabalise the country, and now it might get united again...under a military strongman. Precisely F-all achieved there. So I'd much rather have a cool head at the wheel, than some sort of a macho hot-head like Johnson.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by mdd2 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:19 pm

Stayingup wrote:You wouldn't say the opposite to what exactly? Iran has used the money they got from selling their oil to fund terrorism by proxy. Relaxing of sanctions by the Obama regime and the West brought them a windfall. Unfortunatley that windfall was not spent on the Iranian people. Iran has a poison regime, with their subjugation of women and their terrorist activities in the middle East and also in Europe. Its looking like they are responsible for attacking oil tankers in the Gulf of Hormuz? Did you kniw that the people of Iran are desperate to rid themselves of this corrupt reggressive regime.. If Trump can help to get of rid of them the very talented Iranaian people would be happier and would prosper.
Just like Iraq wanted rid of Soddem Hussain-and look what a fine mess the US and we made of that liberation.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Billy Balfour » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:36 pm

I'm surprised that some people are all too willing to buy into this. Remember, we were bullshitted into going to war not so long ago and it will happen again if we are not careful.

Whatever happens with regards to the US/Iran - I hope that we here in the UK keep well out of it. We are not the World's policeman and our empire days are long over, though you wouldn't believe this when you hear some of our politicians talk.

We should concentrate on getting our own house in order and keep well out of any new foreign 'adventures'. 'Adventures' that screw up whole regions for decades. Anyway, I thought we didn't have a pot left to p1ss in. Funny how there's always money for war.
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Steve1956 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:54 pm

Can you imagine Trump and Johnson in the oval office hovering over the nuke button for Iran .....troubling times ahead ;(

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Re: War with Iran

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:55 pm

AndrewJB wrote "So I'd much rather have a cool head at the wheel, than some sort of a macho hot-head like Johnson." Well that's something we can agree on, my non hot head would be Hunt or the Mr Bean lookalike if I had to have one of them. Remember though it was cool Brittania Blair who last brought us to war in the Middle East.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:56 pm

mdd2 wrote:Just like Iraq wanted rid of Soddem Hussain-and look what a fine mess the US and we made of that liberation.
Nothing like Iraq.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:57 pm

See above
elwaclaret wrote:The suggestion that the USA is trying to spin a war is flawed. British Intelligence has little history in reality backing such claims.
Blair may have bullied them into the Iraq conclusions... but we refused all attempts to get us to follow the USA into Vietnam after we established that the South Vietnam ship was sunk by the US... and we paid a very heavy monetary price for refusing, bringing on the ‘no pot to **** in’ 1970’s that led to Thatcher.... but we refused to join the lie.

There seems very little debate at the top this time... it was Iran.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:57 pm

Nothing like Iraq

See above

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Re: War with Iran

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:48 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:54 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Anyone calling Trump a fascist really needs to wonder if they qualify to comment on political threads. Fascism is built on everyone working for the good of the Nation/ state, not individual success or profit. When it becomes all about “them” it is no longer fascism.
It is totalitarianism, not fascism.
I think we're splitting hairs with this. Trump has done enough to earn the label "fascist" though I agree with you it would be a small "f" one, rather than nailed on (I'm not sure he's brought corporatism into American politics in the way Mussolini did with Italian Fascism, but we might see that come out in a more American way if he wins the next election). He's a plastic fascist.

I completely see what you mean when you say: "When it becomes all about "them" it is no longer fascism" - but given time they all seem to go that way. I would include Napoleon with this too - a kind of pre-fascist. Unlike Napoleon, Mussolini, and Hitler; Trump hasn't risen from nothing, so that could explain the absence of humbleness.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:15 am

AndrewJB wrote:I think we're splitting hairs with this. Trump has done enough to earn the label "fascist" though I agree with you it would be a small "f" one, rather than nailed on (I'm not sure he's brought corporatism into American politics in the way Mussolini did with Italian Fascism, but we might see that come out in a more American way if he wins the next election). He's a plastic fascist.

I completely see what you mean when you say: "When it becomes all about "them" it is no longer fascism" - but given time they all seem to go that way. I would include Napoleon with this too - a kind of pre-fascist. Unlike Napoleon, Mussolini, and Hitler; Trump hasn't risen from nothing, so that could explain the absence of humbleness.
A Napoleon or better still Robespierre I could agree with as Trump comparisons. Mussolini was far too complicated by his socialist background, probably Franco is the best true fascist out there... and who remembers Spain as a great threat / power (except to themselves)?

I still maintain the correct insult would be that he is totalitarianist.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:47 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ignoring the clear ******** of Daily Mail editorials, there is no doubt that Corbyn listens more to "Stop the War" than M16.

Which isn't sensible and one of the reasons he'll never be PM.
This isn't an honest argument. You don't know that Corbyn listens more to Stop the War, than MI6. It is your opinion, not fact.

If we take things back to 2003, had Tony Blair listened to Stop the War more than MI6 before the second Iraq War, then things might have been different:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mass_Appeal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... q-invasion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3227506.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: War with Iran

Post by ElectroClaret » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:39 am

Breaking headline news on the BBC......
Iran says its to quadruple it's Uranium enrichment programme.

So put the tin foil up against the windows.... :(

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Re: War with Iran

Post by NottsClaret » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:50 am

To be fair to Jeremy on this one, it's a few years since he took cash to appear on Iran's state owned broadcaster, so he's probably genuine now he's not getting paid to say things on their behalf.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:46 am

AndrewJB wrote:This isn't an honest argument. You don't know that Corbyn listens more to Stop the War, than MI6. It is your opinion, not fact.

If we take things back to 2003, had Tony Blair listened to Stop the War more than MI6 before the second Iraq War, then things might have been different:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mass_Appeal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... q-invasion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3227506.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You've lost the plot if you think any UK PM should listen to "Stop the war"

And as has been pointed out, and ignored by those who like him, the bearded peacemaker (as long as its a cause he doesn't support) is quite fond of taking cash for appearing on propaganda outlets like Iranian state TV and Russia today.

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Re: War with Iran

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:45 am

I'm speaking with the advantage of hindsight when I say Tony Blair might have made better decisions around Iraq had he listened to them. I would want a UK PM to take the counsel of experts, but also have a clear ethical framework, common sense, reason, and an understanding of history.

Lots of MPs have taken money for appearing in foreign media, and going on junkets. That's not whataboutary, but saying what he did isn't unusual. What has he said on Iranian State TV and Russia Today? I'm asking because I don't know, and I suspect that whatever he said must have been bad if people are bringing it up as a negative.
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Re: War with Iran

Post by AlargeClaret » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:02 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Breaking headline news on the BBC......
Iran says its to quadruple it's Uranium enrichment programme.

So put the tin foil up against the windows.... :(
If there’s any left after the amount of hats that have been made already in this thread ...
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Re: War with Iran

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:07 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I'm speaking with the advantage of hindsight when I say Tony Blair might have made better decisions around Iraq had he listened to them. I would want a UK PM to take the counsel of experts, but also have a clear ethical framework, common sense, reason, and an understanding of history.

Lots of MPs have taken money for appearing in foreign media, and going on junkets. That's not whataboutary, but saying what he did isn't unusual. What has he said on Iranian State TV and Russia Today? I'm asking because I don't know, and I suspect that whatever he said must have been bad if people are bringing it up as a negative.
Thats fair enough.

I was slightly concerned that you thought a bunch of apologists for Assad and who don't seem to realise the Soviet Union is no more would be sensible policy advisors!

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Re: War with Iran

Post by Imploding Turtle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:15 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:If there’s any left after the amount of hats that have been made already in this thread ...

You're not suggesting that having a suspicion that the US are fabricating evidence to start a war, after their long, proven history of fabricating evidence to start wars, is on the same level as things like Roswell and 9/11 Trutherism, are you?

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Re: War with Iran

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:07 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:You're not suggesting that having a suspicion that the US are fabricating evidence to start a war, after their long, proven history of fabricating evidence to start wars, is on the same level as things like Roswell and 9/11 Trutherism, are you?
Not quite tbf

That said Iran is a very different animal to Iraq et al . The US really really don’t want a war there on so many levels . Iran’s Syria Russian “ axis” is not great, neither it’s rather public hatred for Israel ,coupled with low end sabre rattling . I’m amazed Iran don’t just chill out a bit ( Israel don’t give a sh1t about them anyway ) make up with the US and prosper .

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