How it is when you don't come straight back up

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How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby ClaretTony » Tue May 21, 2019 1:34 pm

West Brom, relegated a year ago and just failed to go back up. The consequence is that they can't keep loan player Dwight Gayle.

Interesting read on how the club progresses
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/fo ... west-brom/
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Lord Beamish » Tue May 21, 2019 1:37 pm

ClaretTony wrote:West Brom, relegated a year ago and just failed to go back up. The consequence is that they can't keep loan player Dwight McNeil.

Interesting read on how the club progresses
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/fo ... west-brom/

They could loan our guy, Dwight Gayle.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Bosscat » Tue May 21, 2019 1:39 pm

ClaretTony wrote:West Brom, relegated a year ago and just failed to go back up. The consequence is that they can't keep loan player Dwight McNeil.

Interesting read on how the club progresses
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/fo ... west-brom/

Ooooopsy :lol: :lol:

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Foulthrow » Tue May 21, 2019 1:40 pm

Do you mean Reg Dwight?
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Goobs » Tue May 21, 2019 1:40 pm

TBF there ain't many (if any) Championship sides could afford "our" Dwight :D

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Tricky Trevor » Tue May 21, 2019 1:42 pm

“Last season, Gayle's salary was just £1m shy of Rotherham's whole playing budget. That is unsustainable in this division without a benefactor at the top dipping into deep pockets.”

That paragraph is stunning to me. It’s getting near time for government to step in and make it a sport for all the country again.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Rowls » Tue May 21, 2019 1:49 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:It’s getting near time for government to step in and make it a sport for all the country again.


Good call.

What we need is more government intervention, more civil servants and more politicians.

John McDonnell, for example, could be appointed Chancellor of Burnley Board of Directors and announce an end to our self-imposed transfer-fee austerity. We could finance a push for the Champions League by investing in some loans from banks. The interest will be paid for by offsetting the cost by a small increase in the price of season tickets in the Bob Lord stand. As soon as we secure the riches of Champions League qualification, the books will balance and everything will be OK. It's a perfectly sound economic model.

Meanwhile, Theresa May could take over our transfer negotiations in order to help us tap into the hitherto neglected European leagues. We'll be definitely buying the finest young talent in Europe by 31st March. Or June.

...or maybe October.

Yes.

A splendid idea.

Football is in dire need of more politicians and political interference.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby TVC15 » Tue May 21, 2019 1:52 pm

Rowls wrote:Good call.

What we need is more government intervention, more civil servants and more politicians.

John McDonnell, for example, could be appointed Chancellor of Burnley Board of Directors and announce an end to our self-imposed transfer-fee austerity. We could finance a push for the Champions League by investing in some loans from banks. The interest will be paid for by offsetting the cost by a small increase in the price of season tickets in the Bob Lord stand. As soon as we secure the riches of Champions League qualification, the books will balance and everything will be OK. It's a perfectly sound economic model.

Meanwhile, Theresa May could take over our transfer negotiations in order to help us tap into the hitherto neglected European leagues. We'll be definitely buying the finest young talent in Europe by 31st March. Or June.

...or maybe October.

Yes.

A splendid idea.

Football is in dire need of more politicians and political interference.


Rowls is on full t-watty mode again !

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Tricky Trevor » Tue May 21, 2019 2:01 pm

Rowls wrote:What we need is more government intervention, more civil servants and more politicians.


Dear Rowls, even the shower of self-serving ne’er do wells that you support could do better than the greedy scumbags who run the FA, EUFA & FIFA.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 21, 2019 2:05 pm

It was very particular pointer to their financial situation when Alex Neil turned them down to stay at Preston. Rumour has it that Jay Rod's deal is a huge burden don't know if it did not include a relegation clause

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Rowls » Tue May 21, 2019 2:07 pm

Edit - removed
Last edited by Rowls on Tue May 21, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby BurnleyPaul » Tue May 21, 2019 2:08 pm

Anybody else spot the comment in the article that Jay Rod may well be on the move too- simply because he might be too expensive for them to keep?

If we want him (and it wouldn’t surprise me if we do!) then it might not be too difficult to prise him loose from West Brom this summer....

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Rowls » Tue May 21, 2019 2:09 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Dear Rowls, even the shower of self-serving ne’er do wells that you support could do better than the greedy scumbags who run the FA, EUFA & FIFA.


I don't doubt our board could do better at those organisations but I'm happy with them running Burnley Football Club.

And I take great umbridge at the absurd suggestion they are "ne'er do wells". As far as I'm concerned we have a great board of directors at the moment and they are doing a good job.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby ClaretTony » Tue May 21, 2019 2:13 pm

West Brom have always come across as a well run club but after a first failure to get back up there is going to be some serious cost cutting. Even with parachute payments clubs just can’t sustain the wage bills.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Rowls » Tue May 21, 2019 2:17 pm

ClaretTony wrote:West Brom have always come across as a well run club but after a first failure to get back up there is going to be some serious cost cutting. Even with parachute payments clubs just can’t sustain the wage bills.


Getting back on topic - this was their gamble last summer.

It's a gamble they've lost.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby BurnleyPaul » Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 pm

ClaretTony wrote:West Brom have always come across as a well run club but after a first failure to get back up there is going to be some serious cost cutting. Even with parachute payments clubs just can’t sustain the wage bills.


Makes you realise just how clever our board have been with how we structure our player contracts...highly incentivised with bonuses, relegation clauses etc. That should hopefully minimise the impact of relegation if/when it happens to us.

Also interesting that Arsenal have announced today that if players aren’t willing to sign new contracts when they’re into the last two years then they’re being sold as the club can’t afford to let the, run down contracts and leave for nothing. As transfer fees get bigger this may become normal practise for clubs too...

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby NottsClaret » Tue May 21, 2019 2:19 pm

ClaretTony wrote:West Brom have always come across as a well run club but after a first failure to get back up there is going to be some serious cost cutting. Even with parachute payments clubs just can’t sustain the wage bills.


That's the game now. You could have 20 well run clubs in the Prem, but three are still going to go down and have to deal with their finances falling off a cliff.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Sausage » Tue May 21, 2019 2:31 pm

It's quite a salty and irresponsible comment piece from the Express and Star:

"Not signing [Gayle] is symptomatic of an ownership model that appears to be gearing up for the first stage of a managed decline into mediocrity."

and

"Chief executive Mark Jenkins and technical director Luke Dowling bore the brunt of the criticism after this announcement, but they have their hands tied by an owner determined to keep the club self-sufficient."

I'd be applauding the owner for acting decisively and putting financial stability at the heart of the club. You don't have to look too far to find examples of clubs who refused to do this and ended up deep in the brown smelly stuff.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Rowls » Tue May 21, 2019 2:34 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Dear Rowls, even the shower of self-serving ne’er do wells that you support could do better than the greedy scumbags who run the FA, EUFA & FIFA.


Hi Trevor

Sorry to go off on one earlier.

I've deleted one of my posts.

I understand the feeling that "this isn't right" - particularly when average players like Dwight Gayle earns almost as much as a whole squad. I feel the same way.

It's just that "the government should do something" comes across as empty to me.

All the best and UTC

Rowls
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 21, 2019 2:40 pm

And to think how many wanted to be part of this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... p-to-30-m/

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby aggi » Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

This is why our club have been setting up an additional war chest by not re-investing the bumper profits that have been made the past few years. They will give a couple more years' grace before we have to cut the cloth to Championship level.

West Brom weren't doing too badly, generally breaking even with occasional big profits or small losses but that's only enough to keep you going at the top table, not necessarily enough to get you back there.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Chester Perry » Tue May 21, 2019 3:06 pm

All came about with new ownership and structure that replaced the previous regime - the old finance director was called back last spring as relegation looked certain - he did not like what he saw

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cked-wages

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Tricky Trevor » Tue May 21, 2019 3:12 pm

Rowls wrote:Hi Trevor
Sorry to go off on one earlier.
I've deleted one of my posts
All the best and UTC
Rowls

No sweat, Bud. UTC
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Hipper » Tue May 21, 2019 7:44 pm

Interestingly, does anyone think that Dwight Gayle could get a £55,000 deal anywhere? WBA should offer some lower wage and if he doesn't accept then he doesn't go there.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby IanMcL » Tue May 21, 2019 8:57 pm

WBA was a very well run club. Then they changed the folk at the top. Instead of funds in the bank, they went to the dry powder cupboard and emptied it in one go, in order to make that leap, their fans were demanding....wd don't want to be safe and boring...let's step on the gas

Oops...the leap was into a big hole comprising debt and relegation

Stoke will be similar now that they have missed the boat. They are a season from a big black hole too.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby South West Claret. » Tue May 21, 2019 9:17 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Dear Rowls, even the shower of self-serving ne’er do wells that you support could do better than the greedy scumbags who run the FA, EUFA & FIFA.


I have to correct you TT firstly Rowly poly is not a “Dear” and secondly the useless good for nothing so called excuse for a Government that he supports couldn’t even do better than the other useless lot you mentioned :D

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby cricketfieldclarets » Tue May 21, 2019 10:17 pm

This is exactly why we have to ensure we don't get complacent. And not investing is probably on a par with overspending! A fine balance to find. But not spending because we are scared what could happen isn't a great strategy.

Essential we buy around 3 key players to improve the first 11 this summer!

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby claretspice » Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 am

BurnleyPaul wrote:Anybody else spot the comment in the article that Jay Rod may well be on the move too- simply because he might be too expensive for them to keep?

If we want him (and it wouldn’t surprise me if we do!) then it might not be too difficult to prise him loose from West Brom this summer....


Every chance, although the suggestion Rodriguez' current deal does not contain a relegation adjustment clause makes me wonder if this was as big a stumbling block as transfer fee (if not bigger) last summer, given we would have insisted upon it. We've got to remember we don't know who was leaking information to Nixon et al last summer, or what was motivating them to do so.

That might be an issue for us more often than we realise.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby claretspice » Wed May 22, 2019 1:21 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:This is exactly why we have to ensure we don't get complacent. And not investing is probably on a par with overspending! A fine balance to find. But not spending because we are scared what could happen isn't a great strategy.

Essential we buy around 3 key players to improve the first 11 this summer!


Curious conclusion to draw from the evidence of this thread. I'd have thought the answer was it's desirable to bring in a couple of players at least - but only if we can do so on terms compatible with our business model.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 3:00 am

how it is when you don't come back up - complete proof we need to give Dyche every possible fund available to keep us in the division, stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him (and before anyone says anything, Dyche isn't daft, he knows we can't afford Messi)

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Hipper » Wed May 22, 2019 7:56 am

No. Read the Stoke thread. You cannot break your financial rules anytime. Funds available should be determined by the long term managers of the club. I hope we never forget that. There are still people at the club who did.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby aggi » Wed May 22, 2019 10:59 am

Vegas Claret wrote:how it is when you don't come back up - complete proof we need to give Dyche every possible fund available to keep us in the division, stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him (and before anyone says anything, Dyche isn't daft, he knows we can't afford Messi)


We're going to go down at some point though, it's pretty much inevitable. Spending loads of money may keep us up for another season or two but will make it much more difficult to go back up when we do go down (and make it much more likely we'll emulate teams like Bradford).

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby ClaretTony » Wed May 22, 2019 11:08 am

Vegas Claret wrote:how it is when you don't come back up - complete proof we need to give Dyche every possible fund available to keep us in the division


I’d have thought just the opposite
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby NottsClaret » Wed May 22, 2019 11:09 am

aggi wrote:We're going to go down at some point though, it's pretty much inevitable. Spending loads of money may keep us up for another season or two but will make it much more difficult to go back up when we do go down (and make it much more likely we'll emulate teams like Bradford).


It's true is that. You're almost better off going down after one or two seasons, like we did or as Huddersfield have. Once you've become 'established' - whatever that means - you've got a wage bill getting closer to 80%-90% of your turnover and the day you go down, you're screwed.

We're already in a situation where relegation, whenever it comes, will have to see a huge clear out. It's not a criticism of us at all, or Stoke, West Brom or whoever else. That's just the result of having such a chasm between the Prem and the rest.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Spijed » Wed May 22, 2019 11:13 am

aggi wrote: (and make it much more likely we'll emulate teams like Bradford).


So are you saying that in the long term teams like Preston are likely to be in better shape than us when we get relegated?

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby CombatClaret » Wed May 22, 2019 11:20 am

"We must spend more to avoid this wage trap"

:roll: :roll:

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby NottsClaret » Wed May 22, 2019 11:28 am

Spijed wrote:So are you saying that in the long term teams like Preston are likely to be in better shape than us when we get relegated?


They finished above Stoke and 4pts behind Swansea this season, so it's not unlikely on the field at least. Obviously the money we've earned has been hugely beneficial to the club due to how we've spent it on Gawthorpe and at least some ground improvements.

But we're reaching the point now where the wage bill on relegation would have to be addressed immediately, that's all. Last time we kept a good part of the squad together and traded a bit and was a textbook bounce back to the Prem. With the money they're likely on now, it's less certain we could do that again.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby aggi » Wed May 22, 2019 11:31 am

Spijed wrote:So are you saying that in the long term teams like Preston are likely to be in better shape than us when we get relegated?


Not really.

If we spend to the limit (and possibly beyond) in an attempt to stay up then very possibly. (There are many, many examples out there to illustrate this.)

If we spend sensibly, build up reserves, don't go overboard on transfer fees and wages then probably not.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Royboyclaret » Wed May 22, 2019 11:36 am

NottsClaret wrote:It's true is that. You're almost better off going down after one or two seasons, like we did or as Huddersfield have. Once you've become 'established' - whatever that means - you've got a wage bill getting closer to 80%-90% of your turnover and the day you go down, you're screwed.

We're already in a situation where relegation, whenever it comes, will have to see a huge clear out. It's not a criticism of us at all, or Stoke, West Brom or whoever else. That's just the result of having such a chasm between the Prem and the rest.


The ratio of Wage bill to Turnover at Burnley in the PL would never be at that level. In the event of relegation contract clauses would ensure no serious problems. Also the small matter of near £80m parachute payments over the first two seasons.
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby TVC15 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:how it is when you don't come back up - complete proof we need to give Dyche every possible fund available to keep us in the division, stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him (and before anyone says anything, Dyche isn't daft, he knows we can't afford Messi)


The argument about f’in about for the sake of a million or two gets wheeled out a lot on here....almost like it’s factual.
In reality none of us know the reality of the demands we are getting from the other club, the player and his agent. The transfer fee is also just one element...we may well be only a couple a million away on the asking price but they may also be asking for a contract that is way above our limits...or within our limits but no relegation clause etc.
My own personal view is that if we were only a million away from the asking price and the rest of the deal matched our criteria and that the player was one of Dyche’s main targets that there is absolutely no way we would allow the deal to collapse for the sake of a one off million pounds - why would we ?
The illogical and irrational view is to think that the club is not buying players for the sake of such small amounts.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Tall Paul » Wed May 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Hipper wrote:Interestingly, does anyone think that Dwight Gayle could get a £55,000 deal anywhere? WBA should offer some lower wage and if he doesn't accept then he doesn't go there.


He already has that deal at Newcastle for the next two years, presumably

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 2:40 pm

TVC15 wrote:The argument about f’in about for the sake of a million or two gets wheeled out a lot on here....almost like it’s factual.
In reality none of us know the reality of the demands we are getting from the other club, the player and his agent. The transfer fee is also just one element...we may well be only a couple a million away on the asking price but they may also be asking for a contract that is way above our limits...or within our limits but no relegation clause etc.
My own personal view is that if we were only a million away from the asking price and the rest of the deal matched our criteria and that the player was one of Dyche’s main targets that there is absolutely no way we would allow the deal to collapse for the sake of a one off million pounds - why would we ?
The illogical and irrational view is to think that the club is not buying players for the sake of such small amounts.


that is exactly my point

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 2:41 pm

aggi wrote:We're going to go down at some point though, it's pretty much inevitable. Spending loads of money may keep us up for another season or two but will make it much more difficult to go back up when we do go down (and make it much more likely we'll emulate teams like Bradford).


yeah more than likely. All I'm asking for is for the board to give the manager as much as they possibly can (they may already do that)

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 2:42 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I’d have thought just the opposite


so you think that the board giving Dyche every possible means of improving the squad is a bad idea, right oh.

Key word is "possible'

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dsr
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby dsr » Wed May 22, 2019 2:49 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:yeah more than likely. All I'm asking for is for the board to give the manager as much as they possibly can (they may already do that)

So are you saying that we should spend all the Premier League TV money, have no reserves left, and borrow as much as possible from banks and directors loans? It sounds strange if you are, but that's what you appear to want - to have no reserves left in case things go pear shaped. Basically, you look at West Brom and Stoke and the trouble they are now in, and want to follow what they have done?

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 2:54 pm

dsr wrote:So are you saying that we should spend all the Premier League TV money, have no reserves left, and borrow as much as possible from banks and directors loans? It sounds strange if you are, but that's what you appear to want - to have no reserves left in case things go pear shaped. Basically, you look at West Brom and Stoke and the trouble they are now in, and want to follow what they have done?


how the **** do you get that assumption from what I wrote ?? jesus wept

"we need to give Dyche every possible fund available"

every POSSIBLE

That clearly means if the board decide we have 20 million to spend or 50 million then Dyche should be allowed to spend it. Not once, ever, have I said go and spend all the money the club has
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby CombatClaret » Wed May 22, 2019 3:01 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:That clearly means if the board decide we have 20 million to spend or 50 million then Dyche should be allowed to spend it.


Do you think there's been a time when the board has decided we have £X million to spend.... but not allowed Dyche to spend it? :?

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby ClaretTony » Wed May 22, 2019 3:04 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:so you think that the board giving Dyche every possible means of improving the squad is a bad idea, right oh.

Key word is "possible'


That’s not what I was replying to. I’d go and check your original wording.

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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby Vegas Claret » Wed May 22, 2019 3:04 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Do you think there's been a time when the board has decided we have £X million to spend.... but not allowed Dyche to spend it? :?


no idea either way and neither do you or anyone else on here
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Re: How it is when you don't come straight back up

Postby ClaretTony » Wed May 22, 2019 3:05 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Do you think there's been a time when the board has decided we have £X million to spend.... but not allowed Dyche to spend it? :?


I’m convinced there isn’t.


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