How it is when you don't come straight back up

[claretonthecoast1882]

no idea either way and neither do you or anyone else on here

Yet you told the club to stop ****ing about with 2m here and there, which transfers was this meaning ?

[Vegas Claret]

That’s not what I was replying to. I’d go and check your original wording.

it's exactly what I put

[bfcmik]

Sean Dyche is in control of the transfer business. I'm certain that he was involved in all the discussions about player value and also in how negotiations were proceeding. He would have had major input (if not the final decision) into the decision to end negotiations with any targetted individuals.

He knew what available transfer budget he had - both capital and revenue, what his current squad had to offer, what he needed to move forward and which available players may fit his player profiles at a price the club could afford. He knew what extra may be made available if he went to the Board and asked for it. All buy/not buy decisions are his at the end of the day.

What he cannot do is try to do it all by himself, he relies on club staff to do their jobs. His frustrations at the two 2018 transfer windows were more about the lack of acumen from the people working in the recruitment team than the finances available. There are still too many backroom staff who haven't grasped the size of the market we are involved in as a Premier League club and still see us as 'little old Burnley'

[CombatClaret]

I’m convinced there isn’t.

Likewise.
"He Sean, we've allocated £20million to spend on players, but you're not allowed to spend it."

I only say it because that's the opposite of what Vegas say's should happen

If the board decide we have 20 million to spend or 50 million then Dyche should be allowed to spend it.

[Vegas Claret]

Yet you told the club to stop ****ing about with 2m here and there, which transfers was this meaning ?

if all is to be believed we fell short of the Jay Rod valuation by 1-2 million (i'm thankful for that as it happens as he is way overpriced).

[claretonthecoast1882]

if all is to be believed we fell short of the Jay Rod valuation by 1-2 million (i'm thankful for that as it happens as he is way overpriced).

You really think say we bid 18m and they wanted 19m a deal wouldn't be struck ?

This is the problem with taking as gospel the word of the whinging bellends on here who know little.

[Vegas Claret]

You really think say we bid 18m and they wanted 19m a deal wouldn't be struck ?

This is the problem with taking as gospel the word of the whinging bellends on here who know little.

another who can't read

IF ALL IS TO BE BELIEVED

I can't make it any clearer than that

[dsr]

another who can't read

IF ALL IS TO BE BELIEVED

I can't make it any clearer than that

If ALL is to be believed? In that case, we could have had JayRod for £12m, we could have had him for £20m, and £25m wouldn't have been enough. I'm struggling to believe it all!!!

[claretonthecoast1882]

how it is when you don't come back up - complete proof we need to give Dyche every possible fund available to keep us in the division, stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him (and before anyone says anything, Dyche isn't daft, he knows we can't afford Messi)

There is your quote, you later add "if all is to be be believed" in a total different post when I asked what you meant by it, maybe word you phrase better if you didn't actually mean what you put

[cricketfieldclarets]

Curious conclusion to draw from the evidence of this thread. I'd have thought the answer was it's desirable to bring in a couple of players at least - but only if we can do so on terms compatible with our business model.

And not bringing anyone in will be as suicidal as overspending.

[bfcmik]

if all is to be believed we fell short of the Jay Rod valuation by 1-2 million (i'm thankful for that as it happens as he is way overpriced).

We may, instead, have withdrawn because of Jay's contract demands. If his agent was telling us that Jay would want this much signing on fee, this much weekly wage, these bonuses, this release clause and no relegation clauses and we didn't feel that the TOTAL financial package (transfer fee, signing fee and ongoing wage costs) didn't fit within our framework then we would pull the plug on negotiations.

Sooner or later in any negotiations you have to decide what is the right price. If your top figure is £1 less than the other side is willing to accept then the deal is off. If you went to buy a car from someone at some point in the discussions you may decide it is fair to say, "Sorry, that is too much." and walk away.

[ClaretTony]

it's exactly what I put

No it is not

[Vegas Claret]

If ALL is to be believed? In that case, we could have had JayRod for £12m, we could have had him for £20m, and £25m wouldn't have been enough. I'm struggling to believe it all!!!

you are struggling indeed

"reports" at the time said we bid 18 and they wanted 20

[Vegas Claret]

We may, instead, have withdrawn because of Jay's contract demands. If his agent was telling us that Jay would want this much signing on fee, this much weekly wage, these bonuses, this release clause and no relegation clauses and we didn't feel that the TOTAL financial package (transfer fee, signing fee and ongoing wage costs) didn't fit within our framework then we would pull the plug on negotiations.

Sooner or later in any negotiations you have to decide what is the right price. If your top figure is £1 less than the other side is willing to pay then the deal is off. If you went to buy a car from someone at some point in the discussions you may decide it is fair to say, "Sorry, that is too much." and walk away.

yeah, completely agree with that. Whoever it was asked me for an example and I gave one, the finer details of which not a single person on here actually knows

[ClaretTony]

you are struggling indeed

"reports" at the time said we bid 18 and they wanted 20

I wasn’t aware that the club or West Brom or anyone else involved would report anything. I think for REPORTS you should have written SPECULATION.

[Vegas Claret]

I wasn’t aware that the club or West Brom or anyone else involved would report anything. I think for REPORTS you should have written SPECULATION.

either or, the fact you weren't aware is also irrelevant.

[ClaretTony]

either or, the fact you weren't aware is also irrelevant.

Not either - you saw some speculation and believed it

[Vegas Claret]

Not either - you saw some speculation and believed it

no i didn't - hence the "if all is to be believed"

I don't know the ins and out of the transfers, I'm not in the room, neither are you so stop pretending to

[Steve1956]

Getting back on topic - this was their gamble last summer.

It's a gamble they've lost.

Karma for being complete assholes with us in the Rodriguez and Dawson saga.

[dsr]

you are struggling indeed

"reports" at the time said we bid 18 and they wanted 20

Reports at the time said anything between £12m and £20m for our top bid. What you're saying is not that if "all" is to be believed, but that "the one I pick" is to be believed.

It's all very well to get a reputation for paying the asking price. But is does tend to put up future asking prices.

[Vegas Claret]

Reports at the time said anything between £12m and £20m for our top bid. What you're saying is not that if "all" is to be believed, but that "the one I pick" is to be believed.

It's all very well to get a reputation for paying the asking price. But is does tend to put up future asking prices.

not at all, if all is to be believed is pretty straight forward. Like I said on numerous occasions not a single person on here sits in the room so there is only conjecture and 99.9% of it from all of us is wide of the mark

[claretonthecoast1882]

Its conjecture and 99.9% wide of the mark but if it is to be believed then we **** about

[TVC15]

that is exactly my point

Well its not the point I was making.
My point is that your view that we are penny pinching for the sake of a million pounds or so is not logical - why would we ?
I am saying that we don't know the details of these deals and what demands we are getting for the overall deal, wages, agents fees, contract clauses etc. That is a pure fact that none of the fans know these details.
Yet some fans are critical of the club because they see stuff in the papers around the transfer fee being asked for and what we are offering and firstly believe these to be true and secondly assume that the deal doesn't happen because we fail to meet the asking price.

[TVC15]

And not bringing anyone in will be as suicidal as overspending.

I`m not advocating not bringing players in but you'll have to explain that one further please.
How possibly can not bringing anybody in and be as suicidal as overspending ?
Clearly you can be relegated whether you bring anyone in or not....as is evidenced by all the 45 or so teams who have spent fortunes on players and still been relegated - but i am pretty sure that the ones that overspent were in a much worse position than those that didn't.

[Vegas Claret]

Well its not the point I was making.
My point is that your view that we are penny pinching for the sake of a million pounds or so is not logical - why would we ?
I am saying that we don't know the details of these deals and what demands we are getting for the overall deal, wages, agents fees, contract clauses etc. That is a pure fact that none of the fans know these details.
Yet some fans are critical of the club because they see stuff in the papers around the transfer fee being asked for and what we are offering and firstly believe these to be true and secondly assume that the deal doesn't happen because we fail to meet the asking price.

And I agree with you

[Lord Beamish]

While I’m not overly bothered if we sign anyone from WBA, it will be nice for us to finally have the whip hand in any negotiations with them. I don’t think, for example, that Dawson will be renegotiating a new contract with WBA at our expense, this time.

[TVC15]

And I agree with you

You agree with me that you are one or those fans that criticises the club based on rumours that have no substance and it’s irrational to believe the club would allow a deal to collapse for the sake of a million but even in the knowledge of this you still enjoy blaming the club ?

Right then....good.

[dsr]

I think I have got this straight. We should have spent the extra £20m last year because if we hadn't done, we might have got relegated.

So with hindsight, how much less relegated could we have been if we'd been £20m poorer? Bearing in mind that both Wood and Barnes scored 10+ Premier League goals, a figure Rodriguez last reached 6 years ago.

The management and directors, without benefit of hindsight, last year decided not to sign Rodriguez. Now, with benefit of hindsight, can you argue that they were wrong?

[Vegas Claret]

You agree with me that you are one or those fans that criticises the club based on rumours that have no substance and it’s irrational to believe the club would allow a deal to collapse for the sake of a million but even in the knowledge of this you still enjoy blaming the club ?

Right then....good.

"I am saying that we don't know the details of these deals and what demands we are getting for the overall deal, wages, agents fees, contract clauses etc. That is a pure fact that none of the fans know these details."

which is what I said in various ways in pretty much every post. Keep trying

[TVC15]

"I am saying that we don't know the details of these deals and what demands we are getting for the overall deal, wages, agents fees, contract clauses etc. That is a pure fact that none of the fans know these details."

which is what I said in various ways in pretty much every post. Keep trying

Doesn’t really take too much trying - just seeing if I can work out who said the below. You any idea ?

“stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him”

[cricketfieldclarets]

I`m not advocating not bringing players in but you'll have to explain that one further please.
How possibly can not bringing anybody in and be as suicidal as overspending ?
Clearly you can be relegated whether you bring anyone in or not....as is evidenced by all the 45 or so teams who have spent fortunes on players and still been relegated - but i am pretty sure that the ones that overspent were in a much worse position than those that didn't.

Because if we fail to strengthen a side that struggled for large parts last year and went backwards overall its incredibly negligent. If we start next season with a first 11 of Heaton, Lowton, Tarkowski, Mee, Taylor, Hendrick, Cork, Westwood, McNeil, Barnes and Wood again we will almost certainly go down.

While we stand still and go backwards for the second season running all others strengthen and evolve.

Even the top teams regress if they dont change things. Thats why cIty are the first side in over ten years to defend a title.

We need at least a new centre midfielder and a right winger to start next season as first choice.

[CombatClaret]

If we start next season with a first 11 of Heaton, Lowton, Tarkowski, Mee, Taylor, Hendrick, Cork, Westwood, McNeil, Barnes and Wood again we will almost certainly go down.

What an utterly cretinous statement.

That team kept us up this year. In fact once the changes of Heaton, McNeil and also Bardsley (who will start over Lowton) came in we went on to have an outstanding second half of the season.

So to say relegation is 'almost certain' If we start with the same team is utter rubbish.

Even the top teams regress if they dont change things. Thats why cIty are the first side in over ten years to defend a title.

And why Spurs who signed literally no one made it to their first Champions League final?

The whole 'standing still is moving backwards' is an unprovable cliche and says nothing of players improving under good management, keeping a squad dynamic and maintaining a clubs identity.

[Vegas Claret]

Doesn’t really take too much trying - just seeing if I can work out who said the below. You any idea ?

“stop ******* about with 2 million here or there - if he wants the player then go get him”

aye, and what about the stuff I put in brackets after it, selective much ? crack on

[TVC15]

aye, and what about the stuff I put in brackets after it, selective much ? crack on

How can what you put in brackets have any relevance to saying that the club should stop f’in about for the sake of a couple of million ?
Either you think the club are f’in about or not. You very clearly said they were and I said I didn’t think they were.

It’s fine to change your mind though and admit what you said was wrong !

[TVC15]

Because if we fail to strengthen a side that struggled for large parts last year and went backwards overall its incredibly negligent. If we start next season with a first 11 of Heaton, Lowton, Tarkowski, Mee, Taylor, Hendrick, Cork, Westwood, McNeil, Barnes and Wood again we will almost certainly go down.

While we stand still and go backwards for the second season running all others strengthen and evolve.

Even the top teams regress if they dont change things. Thats why cIty are the first side in over ten years to defend a title.

We need at least a new centre midfielder and a right winger to start next season as first choice.

Are you an MP ?
As I said I agree we need to bring in some new players
But the question was how can not bringing in players be worse than overspending ?
Take a look at Brighton’s accounts and their huge level of debts and look at the players they brought in where their big signings hardly got a kick of the ball last season. Not seen Fulham’s accounts yet but can’t imagine they are going to be pretty reading - the £100m plus they spent did a lot of good didn’t it ?
Obviously most of us want to spend money on players but not overspend - but if it came to a choice of no players and overspend (which it won’t) then no players and see if the same squad can keep us up like last year would be the choice every time.

[beddie]

I'm just thankful that we have a Board that no doubt looking back a few years have thought we aren't getting into that situation again, having to sell Austin etc. Pretty sure they will all back Dyche as much as they can but not at the cost of future risk.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Ok. We shall see. Hopefuly I am wrong. We spend in key areas and bring in the two or three players we need.

[cricketfieldclarets]

What an utterly cretinous statement.

That team kept us up this year. In fact once the changes of Heaton, McNeil and also Bardsley (who will start over Lowton) came in we went on to have an outstanding second half of the season.

So to say relegation is 'almost certain' If we start with the same team is utter rubbish.


And why Spurs who signed literally no one made it to their first Champions League final?

The whole 'standing still is moving backwards' is an unprovable cliche and says nothing of players improving under good management, keeping a squad dynamic and maintaining a clubs identity.

And they finished lower down in the league on less points. At one point they were 2 points off top. Kane got injured the rest is history. Who knows they may have challenged for the league. Like them we went backwards donestically this season.

I said at the time spurs will regret not investing in improving the 11.

They have done incredibly well to get to the european final i agree.

Its not a cliche. Its the same in sport. Business. Pretty much any competetive field.

[cricketfieldclarets]

As for fulham. Was evident from day one. There was no strategy in how they invested. The manager and the board werent alligned.

Thats why its crucial as others have said that we back dyche.

That doesnt mean we have to spend 300m.

We just need to spend in the right areas on the right players.

Its no guarantee of course. But its a better strategy than not investing.

[TVC15]

Aye - Spurs will be gutted with the season they have had
Fantastic new stadium
Top 4 again
And Champions League final for first time in their history

They really are going backwards !!

Take a look at their accounts - they now have a loan of almost half a billion - it’s now a similar size to the United debt.
Spurs’ wage bill has never been in the top 4 of wages and it’s significantly lower than United, City, Liverpool etc so Spurs finishing in the top 4 is always going to be over achieving.
In terms of Harry Kane they only ever play one up front so securing a big signing to sit on the bench most weeks is not easy.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Aye - Spurs will be gutted with the season they have had
Fantastic new stadium
Top 4 again
And Champions League final for first time in their history

They really are going backwards !!

Take a look at their accounts - they now have a loan of almost half a billion - it’s now a similar size to the United debt.
Spurs’ wage bill has never been in the top 4 of wages and it’s significantly lower than United, City, Liverpool etc so Spurs finishing in the top 4 is always going to be over achieving.
In terms of Harry Kane they only ever play one up front so securing a big signing to sit on the bench most weeks is not easy.

Theyve had a decent season. Chanpions league final is a pheonomonal achievement. Especially with some of the sides they drew.

They definitely could have competed for the league though. No doubt.

[TVC15]

As for fulham. Was evident from day one. There was no strategy in how they invested. The manager and the board werent alligned.

Thats why its crucial as others have said that we back dyche.

That doesnt mean we have to spend 300m.

We just need to spend in the right areas on the right players.

Its no guarantee of course. But its a better strategy than not investing.

Of course investing in right areas to improve the team - everyone wants that. But overspending is not a better strategy than not investing at all...which is what you said

[cricketfieldclarets]

Of course investing in right areas to improve the team - everyone wants that. But overspending is not a better strategy than not investing at all...which is what you said

But I didnt.

[Spijed]

Theyve had a decent season. Chanpions league final is a pheonomonal achievement. Especially with some of the sides they drew.

They definitely could have competed for the league though. No doubt.

26 points behind second place suggests otherwise! They were almost as close to us as they were to winning the league.

[TVC15]

Theyve had a decent season. Chanpions league final is a pheonomonal achievement. Especially with some of the sides they drew.

They definitely could have competed for the league though. No doubt.

Absolutely no way - how could they compete with City or Liverpool this season ?
What players and how much would they need to spend extra to close almost a 30 point difference to the top 2 ? Spurs not investing this season has actually been a fantastic decision....they will earn an extra £50m at least from their CL run and have not spent the £150m plus Liverpool did who didn’t the win league either !

[TVC15]

But I didnt.

Apologies CC - that was Vegas Claret who said that.

[cricketfieldclarets]

26 points behind second place suggests otherwise! They were almost as close to us as they were to winning the league.

They wouldve been 2 points behind the day they played us if they won.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Absolutely no way - how could they compete with City or Liverpool this season ?
What players and how much would they need to spend extra to close almost a 30 point difference to the top 2 ? Spurs not investing this season has actually been a fantastic decision....they will earn an extra £50m at least from their CL run and have not spent the £150m plus Liverpool did who didn’t the win league either !

They beat city over two legs in a cup for a start.

More than capable of beating them on their day with their first eleven. Inagine they added a bit of depth.

[TVC15]

They beat city over two legs in a cup for a start.

More than capable of beating them on their day with their first eleven. Inagine they added a bit of depth.

Palace, Newcastle, City and Chelsea all beat City too - but over the season City were streets ahead of all of them just like they were streets ahead of Spurs.
As I asked what players do you think they could have bought to overcome a 27 point difference ?
City are arguably better than Spurs in every single position and 5 or 6 of their substitutes in the FA Cup final would walk into the Spurs starting eleven.

Spurs have played an absolute blinder not spending last summer - even if they get beat in the CL final with what they have had to invest in the new ground they could not have planned this season any better than securing CL for next year and generating a fortune from this years CL run.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Hsppy days. We should have our own fortune to spend next year.

Vokes cash in the bank.
Ward wages off the books. Crouch, walters and Lindegards too.
Cash for at least one of the other keepers a d probably Wells. On top of another years premier league money.

Weve played our own blinder.