ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:04 am

MRG wrote:Imagine how many more he would score if he wasn’t the leagues most commonly offside player!

Any suggestion that he isn’t consistently offside is blinkered and the stats prove this.

Can you show me the stats for the number of times he was both onside and offside last season then we can compare the numbers.

Someone who is " consistently " (probably the wrong word you are using) offside will surely be offside far more than onside. The stats will prove this.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:07 am

ClaretTony wrote:I know your obsession with this, but I'm more than happy at the way he plays, more than happy at his goal return and more than happy with his performances. Shame some can't see past a flag. Any suggestion that he IS consistently offside is the blinkered one.
It’s not really an obsession just a frustration. I simply can’t see how you can suggest that me saying he is consistently offside is blinkered when he was officially the player that was more offside that any other player in the league last season. It’s a fact not an opinion.

However, it’s your forum so your ‘opinion’ is worth twice that of anybody else’s regardless of facts.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:08 am

MRG wrote:However, it’s your forum so your ‘opinion’ is worth twice that of anybody else’s regardless of facts.
Pathetic - absolutely pathetic

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:16 am

MRG wrote:Imagine how many more he would score if he wasn’t the leagues most commonly offside player!

Any suggestion that he isn’t consistently offside is blinkered and the stats prove this.
Maybe he scores a lot of goals because he consistently runs the risk of being caught offside.
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by CharlieinNewMexico » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:44 am

I like the fact that he walks the tightrope. Miles better than being 2 yards behind play. Yes. Yes let's all criticize him because he's the " most offside player in the league".

Jesus Christ be praised
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretburns » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:13 am

When will people grasp the fact that Dyche wants Wood playing on the line as he feels he is most effective in this position? Sure he will get caught offside more than other players due to this role and coming up against clever defenders such as Van Dijk, Laporte etc. If he is consistently offside but despite this Dyche consistently chooses to start, where is the problem?
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Hibsclaret » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:31 am

Many of the strikers in this league are arguably circa £100m and unbelievably quick (Aubamayang, Sterling, Mane etc). They way those teams play and how quick they break mean they are far less likely to be offside than Wood. The way we play means that Wood will be offside more than most of his peers. Unfortunately that’s the way it will stay but at least this year we have VAR to ensure we don’t get nonsense decisions like in the last minute at Watford last season...Wood is a great player and is constantly improving just like Barnes imo
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:36 am

Was sure this post was about Andy Payton
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by KlyBfc » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:36 am

claretburns wrote:When will people grasp the fact that Dyche wants Wood playing on the line as he feels he is most effective in this position? Sure he will get caught offside more than other players due to this role and coming up against clever defenders such as Van Dijk, Laporte etc. If he is consistently offside but despite this Dyche consistently chooses to start, where is the problem?
Correct and I certainly would rather him risk being offside and have a chance of getting into score rather than waiting to ensure he’s onside and then not getting in at all because he’s just not quite quick enough. If he plays right on the edge and gets in once or twice it’s better than him waiting to move and not getting in at all. We’d also be under a lot more pressurise if he didn’t try and get in behind because defenders could comfortably push up safe in the knowledge we wouldn’t ever get in behind or in the channels.

I really don’t understand why so many people get upset / wound up by it.
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Flying Without Ings » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:37 am

The title of this thread has become somewhat misleading. Can we change it to the 'how many times Wood is offside debate'?
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:37 am

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Was sure this post was about Andy Payton
It was until the usual pair decided to turn it into a 'Wood offside' thread

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by KlyBfc » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:50 am

Back onto Payton.
It’s a tough job, management, at that level of football. Players frequently move to other clubs who offer money or a little bit extra. My hat goes off to the guys (almost all doing it for free) who coach and manage at that level. Very much centred round man management, the ability to get players in and keep it fairly basic, experience at that level is also a must really. The playing standard and application is way way below where Payton himself played and so the ideas and expectations he has will no doubt have been very difficult to get across (probably to the committee as well) especially in only a few games.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:42 am

Oh and I know this won’t be a popular opinion but Chris Wood is a far better player than Andy Payton was, albeit Payts was very good at the level he played for us at.[/quote]

I get very frustrated by the amount of “easy” chances he wastes. The one thing we know about this league is that you may only get 1 chance per game and you have to take it. A poacher/ predator would of taken many more goals last season.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:43 am

Burnleyareback2 wrote:I get very frustrated by the amount of “easy” chances he wastes. The one thing we know about this league is that you may only get 1 chance per game and you have to take it. A poacher/ predator would of taken many more goals last season.
And do you know how much Aubameyang (or the likes) costs?
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:44 am

KlyBfc wrote:Back onto Payton.
It’s a tough job, management, at that level of football. Players frequently move to other clubs who offer money or a little bit extra. My hat goes off to the guys (almost all doing it for free) who coach and manage at that level. Very much centred round man management, the ability to get players in and keep it fairly basic, experience at that level is also a must really. The playing standard and application is way way below where Payton himself played and so the ideas and expectations he has will no doubt have been very difficult to get across (probably to the committee as well) especially in only a few games.
Managers come and go in non-league, certainly at that level, almost as much as players come and go. If Payts is good enough to manage at that level he'll get another opportunity.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:46 am

ClaretTony wrote:And do you know how much Aubameyang (or the likes) costs?
I do.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Tall Paul » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:04 pm

Burnleyareback2 wrote:I get very frustrated by the amount of “easy” chances he wastes. The one thing we know about this league is that you may only get 1 chance per game and you have to take it. A poacher/ predator would of taken many more goals last season.
He's scored 3 more goals than he should have in the last two seasons, according to the "expected goals" stat, which suggests that he doesn't miss as many easy chances as you think he does.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:45 pm

claretburns wrote:When will people grasp the fact that Dyche wants Wood playing on the line as he feels he is most effective in this position? Sure he will get caught offside more than other players due to this role and coming up against clever defenders such as Van Dijk, Laporte etc. If he is consistently offside but despite this Dyche consistently chooses to start, where is the problem?
Squad depth?

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:47 pm

:D :D

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:47 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Maybe he scores a lot of goals because he consistently runs the risk of being caught offside.
Lots? 10 last season yet brought 53 other attack’s to a halt by being offside? 20 more than any of the other 100’s of premier league players

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:52 pm

MRG wrote:Lots? 10 last season yet brought 53 other attack’s to a halt by being offside? 20 more than any of the other 100’s of premier league players

I bet your stats also include the 1 at Watford that was a goal and not offside... stop digging

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:53 pm

And why we are looking at the ‘lots’ of goals he scores by being on the last man, 6 of his 10 were headers therefore pushing onto the last man only actually lead to 4 out of the ‘lots’ at very best.

You have to question the tactic, is it worth the 4 goal for over 50 offsides?

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by tim_noone » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:54 pm

MRG wrote:Lots? 10 last season yet brought 53 other attack’s to a halt by being offside? 20 more than any of the other 100’s of premier league players
I'm not his biggest fan...but £15million doesn't get you a lot of striker these days....he looks a lot fitter and quicker this season..it might be a good season for him hopefully :D

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:56 pm

tim_noone wrote:I'm not his biggest fan...but £15million doesn't get you a lot of striker these days....he looks a lot fitter and quicker this season..it might be a good season for him hopefully :D
He’s had a fantastic preseason but has started the season still averaging 1.5 offsides per game. Stats don’t really mean much at this early stage

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:58 pm

Imagine getting so upset at something that is now happening less than twice a game

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Hibsclaret » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:00 pm

MRG wrote:He’s had a fantastic preseason but has started the season still averaging 1.5 offsides per game. Stats don’t really mean much at this early stage
If we define talking rubbish on a messageboard as being “offside” in football terms I reckon Woody wouldn’t be able to lace your boots....
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:00 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Imagine getting so upset at something that is now happening less than twice a game
Unless it’s red cards received or goals conceded

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:01 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:If we define talking rubbish on a messageboard as being “offside” in football terms I reckon Woody wouldn’t be able to lace your boots....

I knew one day the day would arrive where I am in agreement with hibs :D

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by MRG » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:01 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:If we define talking rubbish on a messageboard as being “offside” in football terms I reckon Woody wouldn’t be able to lace your boots....
I’m guessing that made more sense in your head?

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:39 pm

ClaretTony wrote:I know we berate officials but it is incredible that he's ever scored a goal if he needs teaching to stay onside and he's consistently offside. Yet he's scored 107 career league goals including 20 for us in just 51 starts and 13 sub appearances.

I really don't get this offside obsession some have about him.
it was more about giving AP a job in the coaching setup (even at youth level) and you took it the other way :D
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretAndJew » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:53 pm

He was offside 53 times last season. The next player was on 38 offsides.

So he is offside quite a lot.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:54 pm

ClaretAndJew wrote:He was offside 53 times last season. The next player was on 38 offsides.

So he is offside quite a lot.

This is who you want Vydra playing instead of then ?

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ClaretAndJew » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:57 pm

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:This is who you want Vydra playing instead of then ?
I'm just pointing out statistics.

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Re: ARTICLE: Wood the offside star!

Post by Leisure » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:39 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Was sure this post was about Andy Payton
Seems you were wrong! :lol: :D

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:11 pm

Five games. Absolutely insane at any level. Or any industry. But welcome to the twenty first century. Zero patience.

With time and patience he probably would’ve done a decent job.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Bosscat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:16 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:With time and patience he probably would’ve done a decent job.
Are they wingers? Or is it a strike partnership?

;)

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:19 pm

Bosscat wrote:Are they wingers? Or is it a strike partnership?

;)
Nigerian centre halves
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by AfloatinClaret » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:41 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Five games. Absolutely insane at any level. Or any industry...
Garstang had lost four of five though and with a similar record I'd expect to see one or more managers elsewhere in the leagues going if they'd got a similar record by then.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by groove » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:50 pm

I never knew Garstang had a football club!

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:43 pm

AfloatinClaret wrote:Garstang had lost four of five though and with a similar record I'd expect to see one or more managers elsewhere in the leagues going if they'd got a similar record by then.
Good job we didn’t take that approach after our slow start in 2008.

Or when Dyche came in.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by KlyBfc » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:50 pm

AfloatinClaret wrote:Garstang had lost four of five though and with a similar record I'd expect to see one or more managers elsewhere in the leagues going if they'd got a similar record by then.

That level is on a par in terms of players quality with the top amateur leagues and certainly one side that I watched last night in the same division as Garstang are , despite playing at their highest level ever, worse than they were as an amateur team three years ago. He certainly should have been given longer.

In addition CT my point was more about the difficulty of managing at that level and just because someone doesn’t succeed instantly at it doesn’t mean they can’t coach at a higher level it’s a different beast.
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Burnleyareback2 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:58 pm

Tall Paul wrote:He's scored 3 more goals than he should have in the last two seasons, according to the "expected goals" stat, which suggests that he doesn't miss as many easy chances as you think he does.
Wish it was more than I think but it’s less than i see.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Oshkoshclaret » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:30 am

Great striker but I wouldn't mark Payts down as being manager material.

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Hibsclaret » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:50 am

Must be the first manager ever to highlight “stag doos” as part of the early season problems...

For that comment alone he gets kudos from me....also explains, perhaps, why he may have been ultimately unsuccessful in this role

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:26 am

Payton has posted this. Shows exactly what he was up against. No doubt many will still want him to fail.

As someone said above - its arguably harder at that level than higher up! Especially with experience and expectation at the standard he played at.

Now that the dust has settled on my short time as Garstang Manager I’ve had time to reflect and try to take the positives out of what could have been a bit of a soul destroying episode of my Football journey, Lessons have definitely been learned by myself so that can only be a plus point because you never stop learning both in football as in life , it is a Results Game & the fact that after a good Pre season where we won 3 out of 4 games and I had made the endless journeys up there and back with absolutely no financial gain showed that I meant business, I’d inherited a squad that had done well the season before but also had to work on a smaller budget this time around and a few key players had left the club in the summer , not bringing an Assistant in with me proved to be crucial because you 100% need someone alongside you who you can trust, especially when results don’t go your way because you are then the stand out sacrificial Lamb , One of the biggest problems for me was trying to bring Professionalism into a non Professional dressing room , getting the full squad to training was nigh on impossible due to work commitments & it was also far to easy for players to make excuses, it’s on the Training ground where you attempt to rectify mistakes & also work on the basics , Also the location made it hard to attract players to the club because the £20 a week wage they were getting was swallowed up in petrol money if they had to travel, lastly but most importantly for me was player availability at this time of year , Holidays, Stag doos , festivals, you name it the players were on it so to get a settled team isn’t happening, we opened up the season with a close defeat but had 2 crucial players out , we won the second game well , I was able to play my strongest 11 and narrowly lost the 3rd where once again due to the same circumstances the line up changed yet again, the fourth & fifth games were both really poor performances by the team where the levels really dipped below the standard requirements, I took full responsibility as I picked the team and tried to regroup as quickly as possible due to games Saturday/ Monday this weekend, the response to training was embarrassing as only 6 players could make it , so any thoughts of trying to change the shape etc have gone out the window, this weekend the Team have at least 5 players away on a holiday together All first team squad members so I was preparing for a battle , in the meantime the Powers that be at the Club had decided that I wasn’t the man to take the club forward any longer & thanked me for my time & enthusiasm, i certainly gave it a go & im sure all the players will back me on that and could see how much I wanted it as well , although it will be regarded as a setback I certainly believe that with the lessons learnt I can certainly go back into another Football Environment and do a job , Good Luck to All the Lads at the Club I’m sure our paths will cross again & thanks to everyone for the Learning curve because it’s the experiences that make you both wiser & stronger , and although my Pride has taken a knock anyone who knows me knows that I’d never Quit and il be looking for the next opportunity
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Tall Paul » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:56 am

Burnleyareback2 wrote:Wish it was more than I think but it’s less than i see.
That makes no sense.

Can you provide any specific examples of easy chances that he's missed?

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by Longsidelenny » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:59 am

Great response the lower you come down the football ladder the harder it gets good luck at your next job

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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by ŽižkovClaret » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:06 am

If Wood wasn't offside as much.....
If Defour had a better fitness record....
If Mee's distribution was better
If Pope's distribution was better.....


do you think they would still play for us?

Exactly
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Re: ARTICLE: Payts takes over at Garstang

Post by KlyBfc » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:30 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Payton has posted this. Shows exactly what he was up against. No doubt many will still want him to fail.

As someone said above - its arguably harder at that level than higher up! Especially with experience and expectation at the standard he played at.

Now that the dust has settled on my short time as Garstang Manager I’ve had time to reflect and try to take the positives out of what could have been a bit of a soul destroying episode of my Football journey, Lessons have definitely been learned by myself so that can only be a plus point because you never stop learning both in football as in life , it is a Results Game & the fact that after a good Pre season where we won 3 out of 4 games and I had made the endless journeys up there and back with absolutely no financial gain showed that I meant business, I’d inherited a squad that had done well the season before but also had to work on a smaller budget this time around and a few key players had left the club in the summer , not bringing an Assistant in with me proved to be crucial because you 100% need someone alongside you who you can trust, especially when results don’t go your way because you are then the stand out sacrificial Lamb , One of the biggest problems for me was trying to bring Professionalism into a non Professional dressing room , getting the full squad to training was nigh on impossible due to work commitments & it was also far to easy for players to make excuses, it’s on the Training ground where you attempt to rectify mistakes & also work on the basics , Also the location made it hard to attract players to the club because the £20 a week wage they were getting was swallowed up in petrol money if they had to travel, lastly but most importantly for me was player availability at this time of year , Holidays, Stag doos , festivals, you name it the players were on it so to get a settled team isn’t happening, we opened up the season with a close defeat but had 2 crucial players out , we won the second game well , I was able to play my strongest 11 and narrowly lost the 3rd where once again due to the same circumstances the line up changed yet again, the fourth & fifth games were both really poor performances by the team where the levels really dipped below the standard requirements, I took full responsibility as I picked the team and tried to regroup as quickly as possible due to games Saturday/ Monday this weekend, the response to training was embarrassing as only 6 players could make it , so any thoughts of trying to change the shape etc have gone out the window, this weekend the Team have at least 5 players away on a holiday together All first team squad members so I was preparing for a battle , in the meantime the Powers that be at the Club had decided that I wasn’t the man to take the club forward any longer & thanked me for my time & enthusiasm, i certainly gave it a go & im sure all the players will back me on that and could see how much I wanted it as well , although it will be regarded as a setback I certainly believe that with the lessons learnt I can certainly go back into another Football Environment and do a job , Good Luck to All the Lads at the Club I’m sure our paths will cross again & thanks to everyone for the Learning curve because it’s the experiences that make you both wiser & stronger , and although my Pride has taken a knock anyone who knows me knows that I’d never Quit and il be looking for the next opportunity
This situation is fairly common across this level football and below. It blows my mind to see the decline in lads commitment. I also see we’ve sent three youth team players to Steeton (same division as Garstang... in fact the only side Payton beat) I / It will be interesting to see how they get on down at Cougar Park

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