Soldier F parade

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longside72
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Soldier F parade

Post by longside72 » Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 pm

Anyone in town to see the parade/demonstration ?

Juxtaposition
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Anyone who is is an embarrassment to their country.
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longside72
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by longside72 » Sat May 25, 2019 2:11 pm

Why an embarrasment to their country ?

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 2:21 pm

longside72 wrote:Why an embarrasment to their country ?

This soldier was a representative of this country. If he is suspected of committing murder against innocent civilians and we refuse to prosecute, then we are openly saying that we are OK with it if he did. And anyone who opposes his prosecution is saying that same thing.

bobinho
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by bobinho » Sat May 25, 2019 2:46 pm

Never been to Northern Ireland during the troubles then? Nah, didn’t think so.

Only been here two minutes (under this username at least) and trolling already. You’ll fit right in.

If you don’t get why people feel it’s right to support soldier f, then perhaps a little more research is required BEFORE you spout your drivel.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 2:51 pm

Only on this board can you say you think people accused of murder should be prosecuted, and be accused of trolling.

tim_noone
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by tim_noone » Sat May 25, 2019 2:52 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:Anyone who is is an embarrassment to their country.
time to close the Door behind you...it's over.
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bobinho
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by bobinho » Sat May 25, 2019 2:55 pm

I had a look whilst in town.

Not sure having Orangemen marching behind a pipe band was the best idea though... just adds fuel to the argument that sectarianism was/is a huge part of this, when in reality, it should just be about fairness.

Hundreds of convicted IRA prisoners released, ‘known’ IRA players no longer pursued, and murder suspects allowed to go free without investigation whilst troops are dragged thru the courts stinks, and should stink to everyone. If in the interests of peace you want to draw a line under it and move on, then do that. Ignoring murderers on one side, whilst chasing down those on the other side is immoral.

Bliar has a lot more than just Iraq to answer for.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Damo » Sat May 25, 2019 3:06 pm

Imploding Turtle: I support everyones right to peaceful protest

Also imploding turtle:
Juxtaposition wrote:Anyone who is is an embarrassment to their country.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat May 25, 2019 3:14 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:Anyone who is is an embarrassment to their country.
You'd be an embarrassment to your football club, turtles head.










If you had one.......
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by theroyaldyche » Sat May 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:Anyone who is is an embarrassment to their country.
Time for this prick to sign off
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by tim_noone » Sat May 25, 2019 3:37 pm

theroyaldyche wrote:Time for this prick to sign off
I believe he's now left the Building :?

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 3:46 pm

theroyaldyche wrote:Time for this prick to sign off

You should murder me and claim you did it on behalf of your country. The nationalists will protest on your behalf if you're ever brought to trial.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 3:47 pm

Damo wrote:Imploding Turtle: I support everyones right to peaceful protest

Also imploding turtle:
Those are not contradictory statements.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Damo » Sat May 25, 2019 3:52 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:Those are not contradictory statements.
Everything you post is contradictory Charlie.
You are happy for people to be no platformed, and banned from social media because they have views contrary to yours, yet here you are, on your third account since getting banned for breaking forum rules.
So on one hand, you are against freedom of speech, on the other, you expect to be able to post what you like.
How contradictory is that
Last edited by Damo on Sat May 25, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bobinho
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by bobinho » Sat May 25, 2019 3:54 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:Those are not contradictory statements.
No. But they ARE by the same person.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sat May 25, 2019 4:04 pm

longside72 wrote:Anyone in town to see the parade/demonstration ?
Serious question. What are people demonstrating exactly?

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Swizzlestick » Sat May 25, 2019 4:08 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Serious question. What are people demonstrating exactly?
It’s no protest, just a political statement, hence Orangemen marching.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sat May 25, 2019 4:53 pm

Damo wrote:Everything you post is contradictory Charlie.
You are happy for people to be no platformed, and banned from social media because they have views contrary to yours, yet here you are, on your third account since getting banned for breaking forum rules.
So on one hand, you are against freedom of speech, on the other, you expect to be able to post what you like.
How contradictory is that
I have no problem with people being no platformed. I am very much in favour of free speech. Those two statements are not contradictory.
If i get banned on an internet forum, for whatever reason or lack of reason, then my freedom of speech is not being infringed. Neither would it be being infringed if YouTube, Facebook, Twitter or any other privately owned company decide that i'm no longer welcome on their platform.

I have fundamental disagreements with how the moderators of this message board moderate it, but they are not infringing upon my right to free speech just because they ban me for kicks and giggles.

And I wasn't banned for breaking any rules. In the email i received it was made clear to me that I was banned because people reported me for "bickering" with another forum user. He posted far right propaganda and i countered it, and the mods decided it was just easiest to ban both of us rather than apply any kind of evaluation as to whether what I actually posted warranted a ban. Simply put, the act of posting got me banned, not what I posted.
If that's breaking the rules then it means none of us can disagree with each other any more for fear of being banned. but again, just because that's a stupid reason to ban someone doesn't mean my right to freedom of speech is being infringed, i'm just being de-platformed.
Last edited by Juxtaposition on Sat May 25, 2019 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat May 25, 2019 4:56 pm

The vast majority of UK soldiers are absolutely fantastic.

But there are clearly some incidents that happened in NI that need looking at.

Saying that though, I have to admit to thinking that a blanket amnesty for all is the only way forward, but I can fully understand how that would infuriate the victims of the violence.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JohnMac » Sat May 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Many of the families of victims of violence are already infuriated because convicted perpetrators are walking free amongst them.
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BurnleyFC
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by BurnleyFC » Sat May 25, 2019 6:08 pm

Was James McClean there?

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Spijed » Sat May 25, 2019 6:10 pm

One thing I've never understood is why an IRA terrorist is somehow seen as not as bad as one from Islamic State, as though they had better morals.

A murderer is a murderer regardless.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat May 25, 2019 6:32 pm

JohnMac wrote:Many of the families of victims of violence are already infuriated because convicted perpetrators are walking free amongst them.
Yup, but its one of those where the overall situation is far better now than it was.

That is the reality.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat May 25, 2019 6:32 pm

BurnleyFC wrote:Was James McClean there?
No, he is having a medical at us as we speak

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JohnMac » Sat May 25, 2019 7:39 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yup, but its one of those where the overall situation is far better now than it was.

That is the reality.

Spot on LC.

I have read the Saville report and the reality is Soldier F could have been prosecuted at the time but unfortunately the chain of command of the day were schooled in Colonial matters where the shooting of a few troublemakers was seen as a perfectly good solution.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by bfcjg » Sat May 25, 2019 8:12 pm

I know a veteran who was there and he was adament the IRA were sniping before British forces returned fire. Frightened people will do unexpected things.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Swizzlestick » Sat May 25, 2019 8:21 pm

Shooting fleeing, unarmed civilians is certainly unexpected.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat May 25, 2019 8:36 pm

bfcjg wrote:I know a veteran who was there and he was adament the IRA were sniping before British forces returned fire. Frightened people will do unexpected things.
No offence mate, but he ain't going to be telling anyone that his mates broke the law.

But the last point of your statement is spot on, a lot of very scared teenagers in NI in the 70s and 80s and not ready for it, or the medical advances around to recognise it.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Dejavu » Sat May 25, 2019 9:00 pm

Soldier F (and probably a few more) should have been prosecuted at the time as there is now no real possibility of a guilty verdict. At least not a sound one anyway.

People need to realise that there was violence on all sides in the troubles. In fact more catholics were killed than protestants over the years and the British Army were certainly no angels. Google "Miami Showband" for one absolutely vile example amongst many others.

Its time to draw a line under it though and hope Brexit doesn't usher in a return to the violence.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JohnMcGreal » Sat May 25, 2019 9:11 pm

Dejavu wrote:Soldier F (and probably a few more) should have been prosecuted at the time as there is now no real possibility of a guilty verdict. At least not a sound one anyway.

People need to realise that there was violence on all sides in the troubles. In fact more catholics were killed than protestants over the years and the British Army were certainly no angels. Google "Miami Showband" for one absolutely vile example amongst many others.

Its time to draw a line under it though and hope Brexit doesn't usher in a return to the violence.
There's a documentary about the Miami Showband on Netflix and it's eye opening, to say the least.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Dejavu » Sat May 25, 2019 9:16 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:There's a documentary about the Miami Showband on Netflix and it's eye opening, to say the least.
Thanks. I'll have a look.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Burnley1989 » Sat May 25, 2019 9:27 pm

Juxtaposition wrote:I have no problem with people being no platformed. I am very much in favour of free speech. Those two statements are not contradictory.
If i get banned on an internet forum, for whatever reason or lack of reason, then my freedom of speech is not being infringed. Neither would it be being infringed if YouTube, Facebook, Twitter or any other privately owned company decide that i'm no longer welcome on their platform.

I have fundamental disagreements with how the moderators of this message board moderate it, but they are not infringing upon my right to free speech just because they ban me for kicks and giggles.

And I wasn't banned for breaking any rules. In the email i received it was made clear to me that I was banned because people reported me for "bickering" with another forum user. He posted far right propaganda and i countered it, and the mods decided it was just easiest to ban both of us rather than apply any kind of evaluation as to whether what I actually posted warranted a ban. Simply put, the act of posting got me banned, not what I posted.
If that's breaking the rules then it means none of us can disagree with each other any more for fear of being banned. but again, just because that's a stupid reason to ban someone doesn't mean my right to freedom of speech is being infringed, i'm just being de-platformed.
Why would you carry on posting on a forum where nobody likes you or your views? just call it a day, it’s weird

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JarrowClaret » Sat May 25, 2019 9:30 pm

I certainly don’t stand with Soldier F as many of my friends who I served with do but I can’t help holding a little sympathy for him.

For people who consider him to be a murderer though you clearly have never served on the Streets of NI. There is a huge amount of differences between a Soldier murdering someone (deliberately killing innocent people) and mistakingly killing people (shooting towards a perceived threat). Look I came across thousands of Soldiers in my 22 years some good people some bad and some very indifferent all of them including myself were capable of making a mistake which could have resulted in a death but none I suspect that would DELIBERATELY kill an innocent person. I suspect he would have already been prosecuted if it was clear he had DELIBERATELY gone out to kill innocent people, as a number of Soldiers who have served and killed people incorrectly have. I haven’t read the Saville report mainly because I don’t have the time but also such reports would be open to plain lies being told on both sides so probably not worth the paper it was written on if i’m honest.

It is clear that mistakes happened on the day ultimately Soldier F and his colleagues made the fatal ones but there were others much higher than them that should be looked at before prosecuting the ones on the Ground.

I wasn’t on the Ground at the time in fact I had only just been born but with my knowledge of the way they operate and the briefings I have had about the day it is clear to me that the IRA were active on the day and anybody who thinks other wise are being extremely fanciful about them.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JarrowClaret » Sat May 25, 2019 9:51 pm

A few figures for everyone to mull over, some of which I had to google but hey.

3500 people killed in the conflict
52% Civilians
32% Security Forces
16% Terrorist

A figure in the region of 90% of the deaths were as the result of terrorist actions, the majority of these would be murder of innocent Civilians.

Of the 10% killed by the Security Forces a percentage of around the high 90s were Terrorists a small amount would have been innocent Civilians unfortunately.

There are quite a few ex Soldiers being prosecuted currently for old offenses, yet not 1 member of the IRA or other Paramilitary organizations are being prosecuted!!
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Tribesmen » Sat May 25, 2019 10:33 pm

Maybe time to draw a line under this . I love peace and hate war .
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Quickenthetempo » Sat May 25, 2019 10:49 pm

Tribesmen wrote:Maybe time to draw a line under this . I love peace and hate war .
Exactly, if you help one side out the other will kick off. Vice versa.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by DCWat » Sat May 25, 2019 11:06 pm

Is it fair that an agreement was made that appears to have prevented the prosecution of known murderers? No.

Should a soldier, serving his or her country, be held accountable for any crimes they commit? Yes.

We are in a better place now that, in the main, The Troubles are in the past. The issue here is that the GFA appears to have prevented the families of victims on one side obtaining justice, whilst others are finally able.

EVERYONE on either side should be able to seek justice for loved ones lost and all those found to be guilty should be appropriately pusished.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by dsr » Sat May 25, 2019 11:42 pm

How can they make a fair trial based on the mores in force at the time? Are they intending to try him on the basis that he was a soldier under orders who was given his weapons by superiors who gave him latitude in the way he used it and didn't look too hard when he exceeding his notional authority? Or are they going to try him in the same way as they would try any man who took a gun and went out randomly shooting people?

If they are trying the soldier, they ought to also put in the dock every officer above him in the chain of command. (Even if they are all dead.) Then we can see in detail what the army ethos was at the time. Maybe the IRA leaders will cooperate as well and let us have a full picture of what conditions were like for soldiers in those times and see what stresses lead him to take whatever actions he took.

If we can't get that detail of inquiry, then the trial won't work.
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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by bfcjg » Sat May 25, 2019 11:56 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:No offence mate, but he ain't going to be telling anyone that his mates broke the law.

But the last point of your statement is spot on, a lot of very scared teenagers in NI in the 70s and 80s and not ready for it, or the medical advances around to recognise it.
Lancaster he is a very decent man who is as straight as they come. He has spoken at length when we wind him up about going to prison that they were shot at. He has said that it was chaos on the day. If somebody did decide to pot shot civilians that makes them as evil as the people who planted bombs in shops and killed men and women going about their daily lives but we forgive them.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by JarrowClaret » Sun May 26, 2019 1:14 am

dsr I fully agree you must have a full and accurate picture of the circumstances not only of the day itself but of the days and Months that led up to it.

Where was he in the lead up to his deployment
What training did he have
What were his rules of engagement
Why were the Paras sent to Londonderry
What were the IRA doing on the day

Just some of the questions that need answers

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sun May 26, 2019 1:24 am

Burnley1989 wrote:Why would you carry on posting on a forum where nobody likes you or your views? just call it a day, it’s weird
Because it pisses them off.

What happens is i make a post. Angry people reply to my post and attack me personally. Then people report me because my opinions made other people attack me personally. Then I get banned.

Rinse and repeat.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by dsr » Sun May 26, 2019 1:31 am

Juxtaposition wrote:Because it pisses them off.

What happens is i make a post. Angry people reply to my post and attack me personally. Then people report me because my opinions made other people attack me personally. Then I get banned.

Rinse and repeat.
So you aren't responsible for what you are typing? I have often wondered.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by Juxtaposition » Sun May 26, 2019 1:34 am

dsr wrote:So you aren't responsible for what you are typing? I have often wondered.
I've got absolutely no idea what orifice you've unsheathed that one from.

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Re: Soldier F parade

Post by dsr » Sun May 26, 2019 2:11 am

Juxtaposition wrote:I've got absolutely no idea what orifice you've unsheathed that one from.
It's typed, not spoken. It doesn't come from an "orifice". Check that with one of your beloved scientists.

It's your fatuous claim that your bans are because other people don't like your opinions. They're not - your bans are because of what you type. If you claim that what you type is the fault of someone else, then you aren't responsible for your own typing. QED.

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