European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

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dsr
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by dsr » Mon May 27, 2019 11:06 am

ClaretDiver wrote:It is about time that the UK bring in what other countries do...make it mandatory to vote or get a fine....that way we would get a true representation of what the country thinks/wants
Not really - we already know what the non-voters think. It's either "don't know" or "don't care".
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:10 am

Of course remainers want a second referendum.
If leavers would have lost the first referendum they’d want a second one aswell....just like the Scottish people who want independence have been desperate for the chance to vote again.

Is it fair ? Probably not but it wasn’t particularly fair to hold the first referendum was it ?

Why if you voted to remain would you want to just accept the first result ?

The country is divided and it will be divided whatever happens in the future...but it’s always been divided on other issues so again no change.

Of course a second referendum would be democratic - it will be just as democratic as the first one. Why ? Because it’s a referendum !

Queue the leavers bringing out the same old sh-it of “and what then if remain lose - do we have another referendum until we vote to remain ?”.....as a remainer my answer would be yes please....just like any election if you don’t get the result you want of course you want another election.

And just to finish if we do have a second referendum and vote to remain - no I wouldn’t want a 3rd one but I am aware that there are a number of people who would !!

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Bfcboyo » Mon May 27, 2019 11:15 am

ClaretDiver wrote:It is about time that the UK bring in what other countries do...make it mandatory to vote or get a fine....that way we would get a true representation of what the country thinks/wants
Can the none voters claim the fine back with all their other benifits?

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by AndyClaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nicked from twitter

"Many congratulations to Nigel Farage for being elected as an unelected EU bureaucrat."
By definition of being elected, he isn't unelected, like Barnier, Selmyer ect...

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:21 am

dsr wrote:No, I'm quite happy to have another referendum in due course about rejoining, once we have put the first referendum into practice. What I'm not happy with is the "vote again until you get it right" approach.
Neither am I, but at the same time I'm not happy with pretending that democracy isn't fluid and that people are not allowed to change their mind, especially in the light of new information.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:24 am

AndyClaret wrote:By definition of being elected, he isn't unelected, like Barnier, Selmyer ect...
Great "educating the illinformed" day

https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... ureaucrats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Guller Bull » Mon May 27, 2019 11:24 am

So you want to make it mandatory to vote for **** politicians and **** politics???

The reason I don't vote in elections is because it reinforces the same old nonsense - Red/Blue colour divisions. Forced mantra and little change.

Once people accept that what you have is not working then a no vote becomes the a mechanism for change.

If you keep encouraging them by voting for them then there will be no change just wider division.

Politics needs to become less remote and more accessible to the people in areas it represents. The failure to do this has lead to the implosion of the mainstream parties and emphasizes there lack of cohesion

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by JohnMcGreal » Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

A lot of posts on the last page only serve to highlight the flawed nature of referendums in a parliamentary democracy such as ours.

A referendum can deliver a slight victory, one way or the other, but ultimately it's all about numbers in Parliament. If the marginal winner doesn't have the seats, there is a problem.

If the Brexit party stood in a GE on a manifesto to leave the EU without a deal, and they won enough seats to form a majority government, they'd be home and hosed. There would be a legitimate mandate for the UK to leave with no deal, and they would have the numbers in Parliament to make it happen. That's how the system works.

The same would be true of any party that won a majority on a manifesto to revoke article 50 and remain as a full member. They too would have a mandate, and they would have the seats in Parliament to make it happen.

This is UK parliamentary democracy 101.

Now none of that might even happen. I was just suggesting a way in which Labour could stop the haemorrhage of votes in both directions, and was surprised at the response, especially the claims that it would be undemocratic. If we're at the stage where people think general elections are undemocratic, then what sort of future are we looking at? I find that quite frightening, to be honest.

It's quite worrying the number of people who no longer seem to value the sovereignty of our parliament, especially when that seemed to be one of the key issues for a lot of voters three years ago.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by morpheus2 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:27 am

Image

I don't get it, I've been reading through some posters comments and I'm really confused about this pic....is all the blue colour on it where people have voted remain, is that what 'BRX' means? :?

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:30 am

Keep putting the map up guys.

I'm giggling everytime I see it.

Its almost like you lot don't understand population density or something.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by morpheus2 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:33 am

I mean voted for remain parties, I don't watch TV so I have to rely on you chaps to keep me informed, cheers :)

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Devils_Advocate » Mon May 27, 2019 11:33 am

morpheus2 wrote:I don't get it
We know but don't worry you're not on your own. Fair play to posters like LC trying to help educate you guys, he must have the patience of a saint

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by morpheus2 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:34 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Keep putting the map up guys.

I'm giggling everytime I see it.

Its almost like you lot don't understand population density or something.
No really, I don't understand. Cheers :)

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon May 27, 2019 11:34 am

taio wrote:You are being pedantic to just disagree. The suggestion was that Labour should commit to revoking A50 to remain in the EU. It was absolutely said on the basis of long termism - the use of the word permanently was to reflect that this would not just be about revoking temporarily to give time for a deal to be agreed.
I'm not being pedantic.
It's been proposed quite frequently (recently) that due to the October 31st "exit" day and the Tory leadership crisis (taking up more time), that we would be best served by revoking article 50 and having a period whilst we actually decide what we want. (This of course is what we should have done before triggering it in the first place).
It's even been suggested in some articles that some of the Tory leadership candidates might run on this sort of ticket in order to try to hold the party together beyond Oct 31st, if the alternative is a "no dealer". (e.g.. Johnson becomes leader, and immediately loses Tory majority, even before he goes to the Queen because quite a number of MPs are on record as saying they would resign the Tory Whip).
To clarify. There's nothing permanent about revoking, and it might be that this is the most logical course, thus giving each party the opportunity to state their case and put it to the test when we eventually have to have a GE.
Personally, I'd see a Confirmatory Vote as a better option, but that would be dependent on EU agreeing to a further extension.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:34 am

TVC15 wrote:Of course remainers want a second referendum.
If leavers would have lost the first referendum they’d want a second one aswell....just like the Scottish people who want independence have been desperate for the chance to vote again.

Is it fair ? Probably not but it wasn’t particularly fair to hold the first referendum was it ?

Why if you voted to remain would you want to just accept the first result ?

The country is divided and it will be divided whatever happens in the future...but it’s always been divided on other issues so again no change.

Of course a second referendum would be democratic - it will be just as democratic as the first one. Why ? Because it’s a referendum !

Queue the leavers bringing out the same old sh-it of “and what then if remain lose - do we have another referendum until we vote to remain ?”.....as a remainer my answer would be yes please....just like any election if you don’t get the result you want of course you want another election.

And just to finish if we do have a second referendum and vote to remain - no I wouldn’t want a 3rd one but I am aware that there are a number of people who would !!
Well at least your honest, an undemocratic idiot, but an honest one ;)

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:36 am

morpheus2 wrote:No really, I don't understand. Cheers :)
Google is your friend.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Neither am I, but at the same time I'm not happy with pretending that democracy isn't fluid and that people are not allowed to change their mind, especially in the light of new information.
You haven't changed your mind though Lancs, you've been moaning since the day after the referendum.
And inspite of the light of all the new information.......just look at the map.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by morpheus2 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:38 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Google is your friend.
I hate Google.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by AndrewJB » Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 am

Dy1geo wrote:The Euro Elections have brought up a lot of talking points which people can interpret whichever way they want.

People can say the Brexit Party are just UKIP in disguise but I think that’s too simple an argument. In 2014 UKIP were seen my many to be to the “right” of the Tory party with many policies reflecting that and subsequently they have imploded and moved even further to the right.
The Brexit Party have been clever in running just a one issue campaign and have “parked their tanks” in real traditional Labour voting areas such as Barnsley, Bolsover and Blaenau Gwent appealing to leave voters hence them topping the vote and this is why in my opinion Labour face the biggest problem in how they deal with the Brexit issue. By trying to appease both sides they have appealed to none and lost votes to the Lib Dem’s and the Greens in Remain issues. It will be interesting if they finally come down on a second referendum/stop Brexit whether or not they lose those traditional Labour voters in a GE.
The Lib Dem’s won 20% because they campaigned on a clear message, the question is can they keep those voters in a GE my inclination is that they won’t as they were seen as a safe protest vote in the Euro Election.
Going forward the only way to deal with the Brexit issue in my opinion is to have another referendum but this time with a clear choice either leave on WTO or remain with both sides signing a pledge to honour the result.
I don't think the Brexit Party will be able to get away with remaining as a one issue party, and any unwillingness by them to talk about wider issues will be held up as a desire to push an extreme right wing agenda once a no deal brexit has been achieved.

Leave won the referendum by deliberately avoiding the question of what leave would look like (which is why we're having the debate about that now), but I don't think the Brexit Party will be able to get away with the same kind of obfuscation during a general election.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:You haven't changed your mind though Lancs, you've been moaning since the day after the referendum.
And inspite of the light of all the new information.......just look at the map.
You are serious right?

"Just look at the map"

Holy ****, Morpheus is taking the **** but you clearly aren't.

Wow.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:40 am

morpheus2 wrote:I hate Google.
More than foreigners?

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by taio » Mon May 27, 2019 11:40 am

nil_desperandum wrote:I'm not being pedantic.
It's been proposed quite frequently (recently) that due to the October 31st "exit" day and the Tory leadership crisis (taking up more time), that we would be best served by revoking article 50 and having a period whilst we actually decide what we want. (This of course is what we should have done before triggering it in the first place).
It's even been suggested in some articles that some of the Tory leadership candidates might run on this sort of ticket in order to try to hold the party together beyond Oct 31st, if the alternative is a "no dealer". (e.g.. Johnson becomes leader, and immediately loses Tory majority, even before he goes to the Queen because quite a number of MPs are on record as saying they would resign the Tory Whip).
To clarify. There's nothing permanent about revoking, and it might be that this is the most logical course, thus giving each party the opportunity to state their case and put it to the test when we eventually have to have a GE.
Personally, I'd see a Confirmatory Vote as a better option, but that would be dependent on EU agreeing to a further extension.
My points were clearly not about a temporary revocation of A50 to simply give more time. I was unequivocally saying that a long term revocation without a specific referendum, which is what was suggested and you 'liked', would be undemocratic and the most undemocratic option.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon May 27, 2019 11:41 am

morpheus2 wrote:Image

I don't get it, I've been reading through some posters comments and I'm really confused about this pic....is all the blue colour on it where people have voted remain, is that what 'BRX' means? :?
The Atlantic is all blue too, and it has no population, rather like lots of those blue areas on the map.
Presumably you understand that most of our population live in densely populated conurbations like London, Birmingham, Manchester etc, and most of those blue areas in England have small populations.
If you're going to look at it like a child by comparing coloured blobs, then you'll have to give equal weight to that large yellow area north of Carlisle.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:46 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:Well at least your honest, an undemocratic idiot, but an honest one ;)
Cheers - i’ll ignore your childish idiot comment but what exactly is undemocratic about holding a second referendum ?
Are you struggling to understand that the second referendum would be just as democratic as the first one ?

If what you are actually trying to say is that you don’t think it’s fair or even democratic for parliament or the government to decide to hold a second referendum how exactly is that any different to Cameron’s decision to hold the first one ?

And if you believe it is undemocratic that the government has not delivered what people voted for in the first referendum that’s fine - but you might want to check the manifestos of the political parties in the last few hundred years which are littered with promises they failed to deliver.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by ecc » Mon May 27, 2019 11:47 am

"The Atlantic is all blue too, and it has no population,"

Are all fish dead?

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:47 am

Much more fun not to explain it!

Morpheus gets it, Colburn (continuing his habit of not getting anything negative since 2016 on Brexit) doesn't.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by morpheus2 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:50 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:More than foreigners?
I've probably got more coloured friends than you have. Count up your coloureds on facebook and I'll count mine, see who hates foreigners most then.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:52 am

morpheus2 wrote:I've probably got more coloured friends than you have. Count up your coloureds on facebook and I'll count mine, see who hates foreigners most then.
Internet friends?

My, how popular you must be!
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:52 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:Well at least your honest, an undemocratic idiot, but an honest one ;)
Of f-uck it - you’ve clearly just proved beyond all doubt on this thread that you are an idiot.
I don’t know whether you are an honest or undemocratic one though.
Don’t apply for a job at the National Statistics Office though eh - not until you and Diane Abbott have retaken your 11 plus.
Last edited by TVC15 on Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:54 am

morpheus2 wrote:I've probably got more coloured friends than you have. Count up your coloureds on facebook and I'll count mine, see who hates foreigners most then.
Hells teeth - this thread has taken a funny turn
Little tip - maybe don’t use that type of language with your “friends” !
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon May 27, 2019 11:55 am

taio wrote:My points were clearly not about a temporary revocation of A50 to simply give more time. I was unequivocally saying that a long term revocation without a specific referendum, which is what was suggested and you 'liked', would be undemocratic and the most undemocratic option.
Not sure where I've ever proposed or posted that we should revoke article on a permanent basis or supported the idea, but I may have inadvertently given that impression by liking a post that referred to it. I'm not going to go back and check - if you say I did then ok.
However, if you've followed my posts for 3 years, you should see that I've evolved from remainer, (pre-result) to a position similar to Lancaster's (i.e. supporting a damage limiting brexit with some form of CU / SM), to now being convinced that due to the lack of compromise in Parliament - and in general- that the only likely way to move things on is to have some form of Confirmatory Vote.
Therefore, if the only alternative to "no deal" is rekoving article 50 in the short term, then I would go for that, but only as a means to an end, not as an end in itself. Hopefully that clears up my position re: permanently revoking.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Lancasterclaret » Mon May 27, 2019 11:56 am

This is all good fun, but isn't solving anything.

If anyone can tell me of a different solution than a 2nd ref that will sort this I'm all ears.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Mala591 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:59 am

It's clear what Labour need to do for electoral success - get rid of Corbyn and become a remain party.

I think the Conservatives are well and truly fooked. Their 50 year old EU divisions are obviously still so strong that the party will eventually split into two centre right parties - one of which may merge with the Brexit party (under a new name).

For those interested in politics - interesting times...

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Damo » Mon May 27, 2019 12:00 pm

TVC15 wrote:Cheers - i’ll ignore your childish idiot comment but what exactly is undemocratic about holding a second referendum ?
Are you struggling to understand that the second referendum would be just as democratic as the first one ?

If what you are actually trying to say is that you don’t think it’s fair or even democratic for parliament or the government to decide to hold a second referendum how exactly is that any different to Cameron’s decision to hold the first one ?

And if you believe it is undemocratic that the government has not delivered what people voted for in the first referendum that’s fine - but you might want to check the manifestos of the political parties in the last few hundred years which are littered with promises they failed to deliver.
There is nothing un-democratic about holding another referendum.
What would be really un-democratic though, would be to hold one without implimenting the result of the previous one first.
It's quite simple really when you think about it from a neutral perspective

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Burnley Ace » Mon May 27, 2019 12:01 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: Why don't retainers ask themselves why despite all of this negativity to Leaving, the country is still split. Can they not recognise that nothing has changed.That People still want to leave despite the scaremongering.
Whilst many would suggest stupidity I would go for obstinacy.

Why would any Leaver want a referendum when there is a chance they would lose?

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Damo » Mon May 27, 2019 12:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:If anyone can tell me of a different solution than a 2nd ref that will sort this I'm all ears.
Leave the EU immediately. On the default, legal setting
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by thatdberight » Mon May 27, 2019 12:02 pm

Guller Bull wrote:So you want to make it mandatory to vote for **** politicians and **** politics???

The reason I don't vote in elections is because it reinforces the same old nonsense - Red/Blue colour divisions. Forced mantra and little change.

Once people accept that what you have is not working then a no vote becomes the a mechanism for change.

If you keep encouraging them by voting for them then there will be no change just wider division.

Politics needs to become less remote and more accessible to the people in areas it represents. The failure to do this has lead to the implosion of the mainstream parties and emphasizes there lack of cohesion
You could spoil your paper. It could be argued that, forced to at least turn up, more options representing your view might present themselves.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by thatdberight » Mon May 27, 2019 12:04 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is all good fun, but isn't solving anything.

If anyone can tell me of a different solution than a 2nd ref that will sort this I'm all ears.
If anyone can tell me if a solution, including a second referendum, that will sort this, I'm all ears...

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by AndyClaret » Mon May 27, 2019 12:05 pm

The hard left is eating itself.....
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon May 27, 2019 12:05 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:A lot of posts on the last page only serve to highlight the flawed nature of referendums in a parliamentary democracy such as ours.

A referendum can deliver a slight victory, one way or the other, but ultimately it's all about numbers in Parliament. If the marginal winner doesn't have the seats, there is a problem.

If the Brexit party stood in a GE on a manifesto to leave the EU without a deal, and they won enough seats to form a majority government, they'd be home and hosed. There would be a legitimate mandate for the UK to leave with no deal, and they would have the numbers in Parliament to make it happen. That's how the system works.

The same would be true of any party that won a majority on a manifesto to revoke article 50 and remain as a full member. They too would have a mandate, and they would have the seats in Parliament to make it happen.

This is UK parliamentary democracy 101.

Now none of that might even happen. I was just suggesting a way in which Labour could stop the haemorrhage of votes in both directions, and was surprised at the response, especially the claims that it would be undemocratic. If we're at the stage where people think general elections are undemocratic, then what sort of future are we looking at? I find that quite frightening, to be honest.

It's quite worrying the number of people who no longer seem to value the sovereignty of our parliament, especially when that seemed to be one of the key issues for a lot of voters three years ago.
What you said is completely true. Which is why the HOC shouldn't be dictating wether we stay or leave. Like Pontius Pilate they washed their hands and gave it to the people to decide. They have no right to try and take the decision back again. How many politicians promised that it was a once in a lifetime vote. How many promised to deliver on the referendum. If 99% of Politicians wanted to remain, leaving would still be the right and democratic thing to do.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Dy1geo » Mon May 27, 2019 12:11 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I don't think the Brexit Party will be able to get away with remaining as a one issue party, and any unwillingness by them to talk about wider issues will be held up as a desire to push an extreme right wing agenda once a no deal brexit has been achieved.

Leave won the referendum by deliberately avoiding the question of what leave would look like (which is why we're having the debate about that now), but I don't think the Brexit Party will be able to get away with the same kind of obfuscation during a general election.
I think the Brexit Party will push a more “populist” agenda rather than a “right wing” agenda if they fought a GE nicking Labour policies on social issues, student debt etc, infrastructure programme whilst being more nationalistic.

Labour lost because people saw through their “Brexit Policy” in the way Barry Gardiner described it.

That is why I think rather than backing a stitched up question recommendation, they should come out and say we have had three years of political intertia which is affecting the economy with Business investment down etc so now is the time to settle it once and for all a straight question Leave on WTO with the hope of possibility negotiating a deal or Remain. The Liberal manifesto in 2010 had a similar policy. If the Remainers think public opinion has changed they should accept that question.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 12:16 pm

Damo wrote:There is nothing un-democratic about holding another referendum.
What would be really un-democratic though, would be to hold one without implimenting the result of the previous one first.
It's quite simple really when you think about it from a neutral perspective
I do get that - but as said promises are made and then broken all the time in politics. Sometimes (infact mostly) it’s because politicians are lying bastards who will say and do anything to get power.
And sometimes it’s because things and circumstances change.
Brexit has not happened (yet) because of a combination of these.
You might disagree and I here leavers often outraged that we are insulting the intelligence of everyone who voted leave....but IMHO I don’t think a lot of people really did know what they were were voting for in 2016 when they voted leave.
And as I have said a couple of times was it “democratic”, fair or justified that Cameron could make the decision to hold a referendum when he was not elected with this on his manifesto ? And we all know he was a lying ******* who was interested in only one thing when he made this decision - himself...and he got that wrong.
None of this is fair or justified for either side - it is what it is - and if you get a chance of getting what you want then nobody is going to bother that the other side might have been treated poorly.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon May 27, 2019 12:18 pm

TVC15 wrote:Cheers - i’ll ignore your childish idiot comment but what exactly is undemocratic about holding a second referendum ?
Are you struggling to understand that the second referendum would be just as democratic as the first one ?

If what you are actually trying to say is that you don’t think it’s fair or even democratic for parliament or the government to decide to hold a second referendum how exactly is that any different to Cameron’s decision to hold the first one ?

And if you believe it is undemocratic that the government has not delivered what people voted for in the first referendum that’s fine - but you might want to check the manifestos of the political parties in the last few hundred years which are littered with promises they failed to deliver.
If you're not prepared to honour the 1st referendum, then you won't be prepared to honour the 2nd, or the 3rd, or the 4th, unless of course they agree with your point of you. This is of course the tactic employed by the EU in referendums, so it shouldn't be a surprise that retainers want to employ the same.
This wasn't the case of a party reneging on a manifesto promise. They are wrong, but could be due to any number of unforeseen circumstances. This was a referendum, majority rule, and EVERY Party said they would promise to deliver it. Now there have been no unforeseen circumstances that makes them want to change their mind, simply they didn't agree with it in the first place. I can't get my head around how anyone could accept Parliament acting the way it has for the last 3 years. Seriously, whichever way you voted, you should be disgusted that they can give it to the people, promise to deliver, and then deliberately try to back track. It's a disgrace, and pisses on the people and democracy. We should all be outraged. If you cannot see the truth in that then you are blinkered by your own remain obsession.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by taio » Mon May 27, 2019 12:25 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Not sure where I've ever proposed or posted that we should revoke article on a permanent basis or supported the idea, but I may have inadvertently given that impression by liking a post that referred to it. I'm not going to go back and check - if you say I did then ok.
However, if you've followed my posts for 3 years, you should see that I've evolved from remainer, (pre-result) to a position similar to Lancaster's (i.e. supporting a damage limiting brexit with some form of CU / SM), to now being convinced that due to the lack of compromise in Parliament - and in general- that the only likely way to move things on is to have some form of Confirmatory Vote.
Therefore, if the only alternative to "no deal" is rekoving article 50 in the short term, then I would go for that, but only as a means to an end, not as an end in itself. Hopefully that clears up my position re: permanently revoking.
Didn't say you proposed it. Just made a minor point that you liked the post on this thread that was only about long term A50 revocation.

I've no problem with short term revocation either - I suggested it is last year on the basis we would not strike a deal before end of March.

I haven't followed what you've posted for three years. For what it's worth here's my consistent view for you to continue to pick holes in it if you like:

- I don't believe there should have been a referendum.

- I voted to remain.

- I think the UK needs to implement the outcome of the referendum hopefully agreeing a deal with the EU.  That should not include freedom of movement.

- I can understand why people think it'd be appropriate to hold a referendum, but equally I can see why people hold the opposite view.

- I don't want a no deal and would want a second referendum before that.

- I'm fundamentally opposed to revoking A50 on a long-term basis without another single topic vote i.e. specific referendum.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Hipper » Mon May 27, 2019 12:30 pm

I would like us to revoke article 50 so that we can get on with dealing with climate change. After all, that is an emergency, Parliament has declared it so.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Colburn_Claret » Mon May 27, 2019 12:31 pm

TVC15 wrote:Of f-uck it - you’ve clearly just proved beyond all doubt on this thread that you are an idiot.
I don’t know whether you are an honest or undemocratic one though.
Don’t apply for a job at the National Statistics Office though eh - not until you and Diane Abbott have retaken your 11 plus.
I passed my 11 plus, so no need

I fail to see how wanting us to deliver on the biggest Single issue vote in the history of the Country is undemocratic.
The statistics show that Leave won the referendum.
The EE clearly show that despite the negative campaigning we still want to leave. Perhaps if Labour had won 32% of the vote you could argue otherwise, but they didn't.
The pundits claim that it is still split down the middle 35% leavers - 35% remainers, pretty much as the referendum went. Theres nothing new to suggest that the people want this 2nd referendum, if the split was 30-40, or 25-35, you'd have some backing to your claims, but there isn't. It's still let's vote again because I'M not happy with the result.

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon May 27, 2019 12:36 pm

2017 general election-

Brexiteers "84% of voters voted for a party that said it respects and wants to implement the referendum result"

Remoaners - " No ! No ! No! People voted for more than just the party's stance on Brexit, they voted for various reasons. You cannot claim that. "

2019 European Elections-

Remoaners - "People voted for parties depending on their stance on brrxit. When you add all the votes up for the various parties that want to remain, it's more than the those who want to leave!!"

Pure and utter desperate hypocrisy.
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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by Damo » Mon May 27, 2019 12:39 pm

TVC15 wrote:I do get that - but as said promises are made and then broken all the time in politics. Sometimes (infact mostly) it’s because politicians are lying bastards who will say and do anything to get power.
And sometimes it’s because things and circumstances change.
Brexit has not happened (yet) because of a combination of these.
You might disagree and I here leavers often outraged that we are insulting the intelligence of everyone who voted leave....but IMHO I don’t think a lot of people really did know what they were were voting for in 2016 when they voted leave.
And as I have said a couple of times was it “democratic”, fair or justified that Cameron could make the decision to hold a referendum when he was not elected with this on his manifesto ? And we all know he was a lying ******* who was interested in only one thing when he made this decision - himself...and he got that wrong.
None of this is fair or justified for either side - it is what it is - and if you get a chance of getting what you want then nobody is going to bother that the other side might have been treated poorly.
"The referendum was called after Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron made a manifesto commitment in the 2015 UK general election to undertake a renegotiation of the UK's membership to the European Union which would be followed by a in-out referendum."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referen ... ed_Kingdom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There was definately a mandate for the referendum. And while I do agree some people did not know what leaving would entail, that does not affect whether or not it was democratic.
People not knowing. People not being told the truth, and the subsequent campaign by the EU and remain supporters to try and discredit leave, or frighten people into thinking it will be so terribly bad for them, is a totally different argument

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by TVC15 » Mon May 27, 2019 12:42 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I passed my 11 plus, so no need

I fail to see how wanting us to deliver on the biggest Single issue vote in the history of the Country is undemocratic.
The statistics show that Leave won the referendum.
The EE clearly show that despite the negative campaigning we still want to leave. Perhaps if Labour had won 32% of the vote you could argue otherwise, but they didn't.
The pundits claim that it is still split down the middle 35% leavers - 35% remainers, pretty much as the referendum went. Theres nothing new to suggest that the people want this 2nd referendum, if the split was 30-40, or 25-35, you'd have some backing to your claims, but there isn't. It's still let's vote again because I'M not happy with the result.
Seriously you really do need to go back to school and study something.
The EE vote does not clearly show “we still want to leave”

I know let’s try a little maths test just for you. What percentage of the electorate voted for the Brexit party in the Euro elections ? I’ll make it easier with multiple choice.
Was it :
A) 32%
B) 12%
C) 52%

When you’ve worked it out there is a supplemental English language question for you

Which of these percentages would validate a statement that the majority of people still want to leave ?

A) 12%
B) 32%
C).....etc etc !

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Re: European Election Results .. due from 10 p.m. Sunday night...,

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon May 27, 2019 12:47 pm

Remoaners have decided to apply their desperate logic to the premier league. And it's a blow for Manchester city.

They've added up the final points tally for Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal.

And they've announce that LONDON won the Premier League!


:lol:

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