Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

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TVC15
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by TVC15 » Wed May 29, 2019 10:47 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Is it the word “send” that has perhaps caused the confusion? Our obligation, our contribution to the EU budget is £367m per week. Now it’s quite obvious that we don’t send a van with the cash in bags, nor do we use PayPal.

The figure is cotrect as is the counter argument that we get some of it back. It’s an accounting exercise.
That is not our obligation though is it ? Because we get a large rebate back.
The allegation being made is about using this number to mislead the public by clearly saying if we leave this amount will be available for things like the NHS. Very clearly this amount would never ever be “available” - that isn’t creative accounting or being clever with words - it’s just wrong.
Whether any court can prove that it was deliberately misleading or not is another matter - my guess is that as usual the only winners here will be the lawyers. Though hopefully we get the bonus that it ruins Boris’ leadership campaign.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Burnley Ace » Wed May 29, 2019 11:06 pm

TVC15 wrote:That is not our obligation though is it ? Because we get a large rebate back.
The allegation being made is about using this number to mislead the public by clearly saying if we leave this amount will be available for things like the NHS. Very clearly this amount would never ever be “available” - that isn’t creative accounting or being clever with words - it’s just wrong.
Whether any court can prove that it was deliberately misleading or not is another matter - my guess is that as usual the only winners here will be the lawyers. Though hopefully we get the bonus that it ruins Boris’ leadership campaign.
You are wrong. Our obligation, our commitment, the amount we have to pay according to the EU rules works out at £367m per week. We then, having contributed that get money back by negotiated rebate, applications to various funds and EU grants. That doesn’t detract from the fact that our contribution is £367m.

You are arguing that we don’t pay a net figure of £350m - he never said that. Or £350m will go to the NH S - he never said that. Or stupid people think we pay Monet to the EU but don’t get anything back.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by dsr » Wed May 29, 2019 11:14 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:If you feel so strongly that Boris is innocent or that other politicians are just as bad then why not do something about it like Marcus Ball has.
My point of principle is that politicians shouldn't be prosecuted for using hyperbole in election campaigns.

How would prosecuting someone else help carry out that principle?

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by CombatClaret » Wed May 29, 2019 11:18 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:You are wrong. Our obligation, our commitment, the amount we have to pay according to the EU rules works out at £367m per week. We then, having contributed that get money back by negotiated rebate, applications to various funds and EU grants. That doesn’t detract from the fact that our contribution is £367m.

You are arguing that we don’t pay a net figure of £350m - he never said that. Or £350m will go to the NH S - he never said that. Or stupid people think we pay Monet to the EU but don’t get anything back.
We have never paid the EU £350 million a week and we have never owed the EU £350 million a week. After we leave the EU, that means we cannot take back control of £350 million a week.
The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18.6 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away (its size is calculated based on the previous year's contributions), so the UK never contributes this much.


The closest—not perfect—analogy is that £350 million is like the amount a supermarket till displays before the discounts are applied. You never pay it and you never owe it. The number is just one step towards the final bill.

https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million ... ty-misuse/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Burnley Ace wrote:You are arguing that we don’t pay a net figure of £350m - he never said that.
The bus said "We send the EU £350million a week." which we never have in any way.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by CombatClaret » Wed May 29, 2019 11:21 pm

dsr wrote:My point of principle is that politicians shouldn't be prosecuted for using hyperbole in election campaigns.
Hyperbole
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally

eg: Carling, probably the best lager in the world...

Printing it on the side of a bus and treating it as fact is not hyperbole.

“And yes – once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week. It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS” - Boris Johnson, The Telegraph

It was repeated and the bus was all over the media.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by TVC15 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:33 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:You are wrong. Our obligation, our commitment, the amount we have to pay according to the EU rules works out at £367m per week. We then, having contributed that get money back by negotiated rebate, applications to various funds and EU grants. That doesn’t detract from the fact that our contribution is £367m.

You are arguing that we don’t pay a net figure of £350m - he never said that. Or £350m will go to the NH S - he never said that. Or stupid people think we pay Monet to the EU but don’t get anything back.
Semantics and you know it - the only figure that matters is the net figure because obligations work both ways. We are obliged to pay an amount but only pay an amount because they are also obligated to pay rebates back. We don’t send £367m no strings attached and then wait and see how much they decide to give us back...

If we contribute £367m and get £200m back are you seriously saying that you think our contribution is £367m rather than £167m ? The only thing that matters is what it costs us.

And on the NHS again purely semantics - the bus said we send £350m to the EU and instead let’s fund our NHS. Of course that is completely misleading because it implies that firstly it’s costing us £350m and secondly we can instead fund our NHS by not sending this amount.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by nil_desperandum » Wed May 29, 2019 11:55 pm

TVC15 wrote:Semantics and you know it - the only figure that matters is the net figure because obligations work both ways. We are obliged to pay an amount but only pay an amount because they are also obligated to pay rebates back. We don’t send £367m no strings attached and then wait and see how much they decide to give us back...

If we contribute £367m and get £200m back are you seriously saying that you think our contribution is £367m rather than £167m ? The only thing that matters is what it costs us.

And on the NHS again purely semantics - the bus said we send £350m to the EU and instead let’s fund our NHS. Of course that is completely misleading because it implies that firstly it’s costing us £350m and secondly we can instead fund our NHS by not sending this amount.
All basically correct but the bottom line is that our rebate is deduced at source, and we don't, and never have sent the gross amount to the EU, only the net. We then of course additionally get quite a bit back in funding, but that's not what the court case is about.
The Treasuries own published accounts tell us that we only send the net amount, not the gross, and Johnson was frequently told this. So it was an absolute lie to persist in suggesting that anywhere near £350 million could be redirected anywhere, because it has never existed.
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by aggi » Thu May 30, 2019 12:08 am

Burnley Ace wrote:Is it the word “send” that has perhaps caused the confusion? Our obligation, our contribution to the EU budget is £367m per week. Now it’s quite obvious that we don’t send a van with the cash in bags, nor do we use PayPal.

The figure is cotrect as is the counter argument that we get some of it back. It’s an accounting exercise.
I suspect the word "send" was chosen deliberately, as were Boris' statements that if we didn't send the EU our contributions we'd have an extra £350m per week to spend.

It's like seeing a book on Amazon with an RRP of £10 but a 50% discount. You send Amazon £5 and get the book. Then you decide to return the book and tell everyone that Amazon will be sending £10 back that you'll be able to spend on something else.

There are many ways that Boris could have phrased this that would have been misleading but factually correct. However, the phrasing he repeatedly chose in that the UK would have an extra £350m was misleading and factually incorrect.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by dsr » Thu May 30, 2019 12:12 am

CombatClaret wrote:Hyperbole
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally

eg: Carling, probably the best lager in the world...

Printing it on the side of a bus and treating it as fact is not hyperbole.

“And yes – once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week. It would be a fine thing, as many of us have pointed out, if a lot of that money went on the NHS” - Boris Johnson, The Telegraph

It was repeated and the bus was all over the media.
"Hyperbole: a way of speaking or writing that makes someone or something sound bigger, better, more, etc. than they are:" (Source - Cambridge English dictionary, online.)

I'm not saying that your quoted definition of hyperbole is wrong - far from it. What I am saying is that your implication that you have the only possible definition of hyperbole, is wrong.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Greenmile » Thu May 30, 2019 12:42 am

dsr wrote:"Hyperbole: a way of speaking or writing that makes someone or something sound bigger, better, more, etc. than they are:" (Source - Cambridge English dictionary, online.)

I'm not saying that your quoted definition of hyperbole is wrong - far from it. What I am saying is that your implication that you have the only possible definition of hyperbole, is wrong.
So if I claimed Chelsea beat Arsenal 8-1 tonight, would that be hyperbole, or just a lie?

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by If it be your will » Thu May 30, 2019 1:26 am

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Rowls » Thu May 30, 2019 2:37 am

Well how about this for a turn up for the books!

Both the papers who have chosen to lead with this story (the Guardian and the Mirror) have chosen to place the word lies in inverted commas.

Wonder why that is??????

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Damo » Thu May 30, 2019 3:13 am

So what "some" (you included greenmile) are saying is, we get absolutely nothing financially from the EU. They dont actually pay for anything on these shores. Nothing to the public or private sector? No regeneration schemes in northern towns. Absolutely nothing?
Seems strange then how "some" of you have absolutely lost your minds at the prospect of leaving

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu May 30, 2019 7:17 am

Burnley Ace wrote:he never said that.
Image

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu May 30, 2019 7:26 am

Burnley Ace wrote:
You are arguing that we don’t pay a net figure of £350m - he never said that. Or £350m will go to the NH S - he never said that.
Image
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu May 30, 2019 7:31 am

aggi wrote:
It's like seeing a book on Amazon with an RRP of £10 but a 50% discount. You send Amazon £5 and get the book. Then you decide to return the book and tell everyone that Amazon will be sending £10 back that you'll be able to spend on something else.
Or we have set aside £10 a week for membership fees and if we leave that £10 can be spent on something else. What he didn't say was that membership gets us a £5 cash back.

What he said was confusing to anyone who took it on face value (which worryingly was far too many) but when you look at the CPS guidlines https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/m ... lic-office" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the hurdles the prosecution need to overcome (realistic chance of conviction, no case to answer, beyond reasonable doubt) it seems a rather weak case. The biggest problem will be getting a jury of 12 who are impartial!!

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu May 30, 2019 7:35 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Image
"Let's give" is a wish, "we'll give" is a promise.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by IanMcL » Thu May 30, 2019 7:41 am

Burnley Ace wrote:"Let's give" is a wish, "we'll give" is a promise.
The point is that this is what, he alleges, can be saved and given.

Also, Let's give, is a definitive proposal, for us all to agree or not, not a wish.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu May 30, 2019 7:44 am

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Image
If these figures are correct:

Payment to Brussels, net of rebate and money returned to the UK: £9.4 billion a year, or £181 million a week.
Payment to Brussels, net of rebate: £13.9 billion a year, or £267 million a week.
Gross payment to Brussels: £18.9 billion a year, or £363 million a week.

On the face of it you can argue, and it's a subjective test, that all statements are correct.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Burnley Ace » Thu May 30, 2019 7:57 am

IanMcL wrote:The point is that this is what, he alleges, can be saved and given.

Also, Let's give, is a definitive proposal, for us all to agree or not, not a wish.
He's right - £350m can be saved and it can be given - the fact that it would never be given is a different argument. If he had said - we will hypothecate £350m a week and spend it on the NHS - then, putting aside he wasn't in a position to be able to deliver that - the argument would be stronger.

I disagree, especially in the context of a campaign, "let's give" is a ideal, something that can be done, in the same way that, let's cut taxes, let's increase spending, lets get rid of nuclear bombs etc etc.

It's subjective, we will all have different interpretations of what he said mainly based on how much knowledge we had of how EU financing worked, especially as a full explanation of the figures and how they were broken down was also available (#21)

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 8:03 am

Greenmile wrote:So if I claimed Chelsea beat Arsenal 8-1 tonight, would that be hyperbole, or just a lie?
Not sure, which side backed Brexit again? (as with the exception of Burnley Ace, thats seems to be really important with this one)
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by TVC15 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:11 am

Burnley Ace wrote:"Let's give" is a wish, "we'll give" is a promise.
Don’t you feel embarrassed defending this ?
You are talking utter sh-ite.
Let’s give / we’ll give - what does it matter ? The relevant but is the £350m - which is the amount he continuously says that will be saved and is available for spending on the NHS as a direct result of leaving the EU - which is nothing less than a complete lie.
You then go on to mention gross payment - again you are talking nonsense. A payment is something that is paid - £350m a week was never paid....but in everything he says it implies or blatantly says that it is the money that is sent / paid....because if he wasn’t saying this hoe can that money be used on the NHS or N Ireland - clearly “that” money never was the £350m he said.

The more you try and defend this the sillier you look.
Boris lied - send him to the gallows
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu May 30, 2019 8:15 am

Burnley Ace wrote:If these figures are correct:

Payment to Brussels, net of rebate and money returned to the UK: £9.4 billion a year, or £181 million a week.
Payment to Brussels, net of rebate: £13.9 billion a year, or £267 million a week.
Gross payment to Brussels: £18.9 billion a year, or £363 million a week.

On the face of it you can argue, and it's a subjective test, that all statements are correct.
Except on the bus it said "the EU TAKES every week", which it demonstrably doesn't.
On the 17th of Sept 2017, whilst Foreign Secretary Johnson was actually officially rebuked in writing by The Chair of the UK Official Statistics Authority, Sir David Norwood for repeating the £350 million figure, describing it as "clear misuse of public statistics". But he still continued to do it. This will be the crux of the case I think.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJ7RXwcWsAAiJqR.jpg:large" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by nil_desperandum on Thu May 30, 2019 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by taio » Thu May 30, 2019 8:16 am

I'm sure time and the legal process will in the end show that this is completely farcical.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by TVC15 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:18 am

Burnley Ace wrote:He's right - £350m can be saved and it can be given - the fact that it would never be given is a different argument. If he had said - we will hypothecate £350m a week and spend it on the NHS - then, putting aside he wasn't in a position to be able to deliver that - the argument would be stronger.

I disagree, especially in the context of a campaign, "let's give" is a ideal, something that can be done, in the same way that, let's cut taxes, let's increase spending, lets get rid of nuclear bombs etc etc.

It's subjective, we will all have different interpretations of what he said mainly based on how much knowledge we had of how EU financing worked, especially as a full explanation of the figures and how they were broken down was also available (#21)
Hells teeth - you are unbelievable. Have you been hypnotised ?
How exactly can £350m a week be saved when that is nowhere near the number that it costs ?
It’s the same as saying my gross salary is a million a week - my net salary after tax is £200k a week - so I have available to spend a million a week.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Loyalclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 8:27 am

Isn’t Burnlet Ace defending this from a legal defence position - something he/she clearly knows a bit about. Doesn’t have to agree with what Boris said.


People believing the statement was the problem
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 8:39 am

Loyalclaret wrote:Isn’t Burnlet Ace defending this from a legal defence position - something he/she clearly knows a bit about. Doesn’t have to agree with what Boris said.


People believing the statement was the problem
He might well be, but the fact is that both the head of the ONS and the head of the treasury committee (not sure what the official title is) wrote to Boris to officially warn him that he was using official data in an misleading way.

I don't know enough about the case but I suspect that is the basis of it.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by TVC15 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:40 am

Loyalclaret wrote:Isn’t Burnlet Ace defending this from a legal defence position - something he/she clearly knows a bit about. Doesn’t have to agree with what Boris said.


People believing the statement was the problem
I don’t know why he is defending it but if you want to look at it legally then there are many times he never pointed out it was a gross figure and not the figure it actually costs us. And when did he ever say only part of this figure is available for use in the NHS or N Ireland ?

As for the problem being that the public believe it - yes that was clearly a problem but the reason it is being investigated was because it was a lie and that lie could have influenced some people to vote in a certain way if they thought that money was available for other things. He was warned that he was quoting the incorrect numbers and he still used them....why would he do that other than to try and deceive the public ? He and the PR machine behind him knew exactly what they were doing.
TBH it was a very stupid thing to do because if they had used the correct / true figure that was still a very compelling argument

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 8:43 am

And though I don't necessarily agree with this particular case, the fact that our politicians can be taken to court over lying to the people they serve is a good thing no?

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu May 30, 2019 8:49 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And though I don't necessarily agree with this particular case, the fact that our politicians can be taken to court over lying to the people they serve is a good thing no?

Yes, which should result in charges against Corbyn issued very soon. If telling lies to influence people how they vote then telling students I will scrap tuition fees if elected then being dumb enough to admit he couldn't or wouldn't when he lost another election then surely he is facing charges.

I know the swivel eyed loons who see nothing wrong with this lunatic and his party will disagree but all parties should be treated equally.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 9:04 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Yes, which should result in charges against Corbyn issued very soon. If telling lies to influence people how they vote then telling students I will scrap tuition fees if elected then being dumb enough to admit he couldn't or wouldn't when he lost another election then surely he is facing charges.

I know the swivel eyed loons who see nothing wrong with this lunatic and his party will disagree but all parties should be treated equally.
Nothing wrong with that, but specifics of this case are the reason its been successfully funded and successfully brought to court.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu May 30, 2019 9:09 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Nothing wrong with that, but specifics of this case are the reason its been successfully funded and successfully brought to court.

But mainly due to a person not wanting brexit, it isn't so much that this person is annoyed at someone telling lies (or they would have taken action against a whole line of mps) it is what the lies are about.

He is comfortable with lies if he approves of the outcome, that's the wrong part of all this.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 9:16 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:But mainly due to a person not wanting brexit, it isn't so much that this person is annoyed at someone telling lies (or they would have taken action against a whole line of mps) it is what the lies are about.

He is comfortable with lies if he approves of the outcome, that's the wrong part of all this.
I saw something from Guido Fawkes about that, but i don't click on the articles (essentially a fake news site, like the Canary is for the left)

I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can (v hard because I can't stand Johnson and my views on Brexit are fairly well known) and I think the specifics make it slightly more interesting (for want of a better word) from a legal perspective.

I'm still not sure I agree with it, but that is counterbalanced by the real fear I have that politicians (and their backers) now think its ok to lie about stuff and having a legal recourse like this is a good thing for our democracy.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu May 30, 2019 9:17 am

TVC15 wrote:Don’t you feel embarrassed defending this ?
You are talking utter sh-ite.
Let’s give / we’ll give - what does it matter ? The relevant but is the £350m - which is the amount he continuously says that will be saved and is available for spending on the NHS as a direct result of leaving the EU - which is nothing less than a complete lie.
You then go on to mention gross payment - again you are talking nonsense. A payment is something that is paid - £350m a week was never paid....but in everything he says it implies or blatantly says that it is the money that is sent / paid....because if he wasn’t saying this hoe can that money be used on the NHS or N Ireland - clearly “that” money never was the £350m he said.

The more you try and defend this the sillier you look.
Boris lied - send him to the gallows
This is what I don't understand, you may want to leave the EU, which is fair enough but why on earth would you want to defend a lying politician? Especially when a promised benefit is withdrawn immediately after winning.
Do you know something, if we actually sent 350 million to the EU and saved it by leaving and then spent it on the NHS instead then I imagine half of the people who voted Remain would change their mind, I know I would.

This would be a real and measurable benefit of leaving the EU but it isn't, it's just a lie to get votes in the same way as writing "Vote Remain and I'll give you a million quid" on the side of a bus and then ditching it the day after would have also been.

Thankfully, I did my research at the time and found out it was bullsh*t, if I'd believed it and voted Leave based on that lie I would feel massively betrayed, I certainly wouldn't be looking to find a way to defend it.
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu May 30, 2019 9:20 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I saw something from Guido Fawkes about that, but i don't click on the articles (essentially a fake news site, like the Canary is for the left)

I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can (v hard because I can't stand Johnson and my views on Brexit are fairly well known) and I think the specifics make it slightly more interesting (for want of a better word) from a legal perspective.

I'm still not sure I agree with it, but that is counterbalanced by the real fear I have that politicians (and their backers) now think its ok to lie about stuff and having a legal recourse like this is a good thing for our democracy.

What are your views on brexit :D

I don't read guido fawkes articles either mainly because I can't be arsed, the one thing for certain though is there will now be people digging deep into the guys history, let's hope for his sake he has a clean past.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 30, 2019 9:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:And though I don't necessarily agree with this particular case, the fact that our politicians can be taken to court over lying to the people they serve is a good thing no?
It is, if you want all 650 of them behind bars.

If parliamentarians are to be taken to task for lying. The place to do it is not a criminal court.



It's Parliament.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Damo » Thu May 30, 2019 9:55 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I saw something from Guido Fawkes about that, but i don't click on the articles (essentially a fake news site, like the Canary is for the left)

I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can (v hard because I can't stand Johnson and my views on Brexit are fairly well known) and I think the specifics make it slightly more interesting (for want of a better word) from a legal perspective.

I'm still not sure I agree with it, but that is counterbalanced by the real fear I have that politicians (and their backers) now think its ok to lie about stuff and having a legal recourse like this is a good thing for our democracy.
Yet you are quite happy with the EU's lie, that they fund various projects in the UK?

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 9:57 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:It is, if you want all 650 of them behind bars.

If parliamentarians are to be taken to task for lying. The place to do it is not a criminal court.



It's Parliament.
You are correct, but this is a private prosecution.

And as the case of Esther McVey shows, that doesn't work either.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 10:00 am

Damo wrote:Yet you are quite happy with the EU's lie, that they fund various projects in the UK?
But thats not a lie. As far as I know, the EU don't claim they don't get their funding from member states.

I haven't accessed this case at all so I don't know anymore than what I've read on here (which is mental really, as most of the stuff on here isn't backed up!) but a judge has decided there is enough here for it to go to court.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Greenmile » Thu May 30, 2019 10:10 am

Damo wrote:So what "some" (you included greenmile) are saying is, we get absolutely nothing financially from the EU. They dont actually pay for anything on these shores. Nothing to the public or private sector? No regeneration schemes in northern towns. Absolutely nothing?
Seems strange then how "some" of you have absolutely lost your minds at the prospect of leaving
Good use of the word “some” - well done.

No need for the inverted commas, though, and I’ve literally no idea what makes you think that I’m saying that - I’d be interested to find out which post of mine you’re referring to.

As far as I’m aware, the only post I’ve made on this thread so far was to query dsr’s definition and use of the word “hyperbole” (as is my wont). Maybe I’ve forgotten a different post I made, though.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 30, 2019 10:12 am

Question -

The illegal Iraq war was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of 1000s of innocent iraqi children, and British service men and women. It was based on blatent lies. WMD. The Prime Minister and his chief spin (lie) doctor responsible, had to face only an enquiry (Chilcott)

An MP makes a claim, which can be seen on here, is debatable, depending on which way you account the figures. Nobody lost their lives, as far as I'm aware, because of the debatable claim made. He faces a criminal court.

Why is this acceptable in a parliamentary democracy?




Answer - because the Establishment says so.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by AndyClaret » Thu May 30, 2019 10:12 am

Damo wrote:What a hilarious way to waste your money.
.
It's as bad as giving it to Tommy Robinson, or paying for Mike Stutchbury to go on holiday

Or that Jason Hunter fella who these #FBPE types have sent money to.
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by aggi » Thu May 30, 2019 10:22 am

Burnley Ace wrote:Or we have set aside £10 a week for membership fees and if we leave that £10 can be spent on something else. What he didn't say was that membership gets us a £5 cash back.

What he said was confusing to anyone who took it on face value (which worryingly was far too many) but when you look at the CPS guidlines https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/m ... lic-office" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the hurdles the prosecution need to overcome (realistic chance of conviction, no case to answer, beyond reasonable doubt) it seems a rather weak case. The biggest problem will be getting a jury of 12 who are impartial!!
Except if your membership contract had a clause in it saying that the membership was £10 but for the life of the contact a guaranteed 50% discount was applied you'd only set aside £5. Why would you set aside more than was contractually due and why would you think that cancelling your £5 membership would give you £10 to spend? The rebate isn't something that the EU do out of the goodness of their heart each year, it's going to happen.

I'm also not convinced that it will get past the guidelines but I guess the arguments would be similar to:

deliberately doing something which is wrong knowing it to be wrong or with reckless indifference as to whether it is wrong or not.

Multiple parties, including the head of statistics, informed him that it was wrong and he carried on with it.

The first is to refer the jury to the need for them to reach a judgment that the misconduct is worthy of condemnation and punishment. The second is to refer them to the requirement that the misconduct must be judged by them as having the effect of harming the public interest.”

Influencing a nationwide referendum, whatever the outcome, should be viewed as against the public interest.

I'd say that the consequences are self-explanatory. And in terms of motive, if it's proven that the figure is incorrect and Boris was informed of that then you could argue reckless indifference.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by aggi » Thu May 30, 2019 10:24 am

If it be your will wrote:Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell are both going to get life sentences then, aren't they.
It's possible. Fund your own private prosecution and test it in court.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Thu May 30, 2019 10:25 am

Marcus Ball, seems like a man of the people. :lol:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... mself.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 10:28 am

If Farage is a "Man of the people", anybody is!

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu May 30, 2019 10:48 am

The daft thing about this whole bus thing is that if he had said the “net” figure it would have been just as persuasive. £350m isn’t a magic number. £200m or whatever the net figure is would have been just as electric.
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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Mala591 » Thu May 30, 2019 11:03 am

Our net annual (average) payment to the EU over recent years is £9 billion. That is £173 million per week. When we leave the EU this money will be available to support the NHS and social care.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by aggi » Thu May 30, 2019 11:03 am

Rowls wrote:Well how about this for a turn up for the books!

Both the papers who have chosen to lead with this story (the Guardian and the Mirror) have chosen to place the word lies in inverted commas.

Wonder why that is??????
Because the case hasn't been heard yet I'd assume.

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Re: Boris Johnson to appear in Crown Court for lying

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 30, 2019 11:09 am

Case in point today btw

Dominic Raab on R4 today has claimed that he was on the verge of a "huge breakthrough" on talks on the border, but was scuppered by David Lidington.

To him, its normal politics, he's making himself someone who could (and will) solve the Irish border problem, and blaming the failure on a remainer, so appealing to the Conservative voter base.

To everybody else, he's lying on the radio as a couple of journalist and the Irish Govt are reminding him of what actually happened.

Should he go to jail for that?

No

But should he stop doing that?

Of course he should

So how do we make sure that is what happens?

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