Not so much last nights timid defeat ,where tbh Holland wanted it more and always had the edge .

After the total humiliation at the Euros I thought we blagged it at the World Cup . Italy and Holland didn’t even qualify Germany and Brazil out early and we had a very easy group and the easiest passage possible .

We struggled to beat Tunisia ( 91st min) and lost to Belgium reserves. We then struggled past Columbia ( pens) then lost to Croatia and Belgium again . We did murder Panama 6-1( the lowest ranked team) which seemed to elevate us to immortality , and beat a poor Sweden.

While we’re not lacking talent and are a “good” side I still think we’re below the best European sides . We simply cannot play the best at their own “ tippy tappy play it from the back “ game , not all the time anyway .

As for Southgate, nice bloke great footy experience , though a man in a monkey suit would have done no Better or worse . I think big Sam would have mixed it up a bit more tbh

Couldn't agree more.

AlargeClaret wrote:Not so much last nights timid defeat ,where tbh Holland wanted it more and always had the edge .

After the total humiliation at the Euros I thought we blagged it at the World Cup . Italy and Holland didn’t even qualify Germany and Brazil out early and we had a very easy group and the easiest passage possible .

We struggled to beat Tunisia ( 91st min) and lost to Belgium reserves. We then struggled past Columbia ( pens) then lost to Croatia and Belgium again . We did murder Panama 6-1( the lowest ranked team) which seemed to elevate us to immortality , and beat a poor Sweden.

While we’re not lacking talent and are a “good” side I still think we’re below the best European sides . We simply cannot play the best at their own “ tippy tappy play it from the back “ game , not all the time anyway .

As for Southgate, nice bloke great footy experience , though a man in a monkey suit would have done no Better or worse . I think big Sam would have mixed it up a bit more tbh

Totally agree, though I think an argument could be made that with a few of the youngsters in and around the team at the moment and obvious youth quality we have, we are in a progression at the moment and only time will tell if we can reach our potential. I would say for the young players, forget this argument "Will Premier League managers risk playing the young kids?" I would take the Sancho route and move abroad to Spain or Germany if it is an option. For example Hudson-Odoi, I would tell him to do everything in his power to move to Bayern this summer.

Just one point you make which I think is a little unfair, that we lost to Belgium reserves, in fairness that game was England reserves v Belgium reserves and not our full strength team.

No. Simply because most sane football fans know we are still a work in progress.

Well we beat Spain and Croatia in the group stage to even get to last night. Holland beat France and Germany. So clearly both very good sides.

However both sides underperformed last night. Whilst Holland were clearly the better side neither were at their best.

I'd say we are a top 10 nation but not a top 5.

Yes,any team with Jesse Linguard in is off the scale overrated

Their results have been good for a team that is in transition.
They can only play what’s in front of them but have beaten Croatia, Spain etc recently.
There’s a few big teams struggling at the moment - Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Argentina and up until the last 6 months the Dutch have had an awful few years.

England have done well at senior and other levels recently and whilst this is a relatively successful period I don’t think many think they should be winning the Euros or World Cup - which was the case with previous teams who were definitely overrated and a long way behind much better other countries.

Doing pretty well in tournaments and having a team with a few youngsters coming through and showing a lot of spirit like they actually want to play for England should be a refreshing change for England fans.
Far better than hyping players like Rooney, Gerrard etc as the best players in the world just to get embarrassed by Iceland etc

claretburns wrote:Totally agree, though I think an argument could be made that with a few of the youngsters in and around the team at the moment and obvious youth quality we have, we are in a progression at the moment and only time will tell if we can reach our potential. I would say for the young players, forget this argument "Will Premier League managers risk playing the young kids?" I would take the Sancho route and move abroad to Spain or Germany if it is an option. For example Hudson-Odoi, I would tell him to do everything in his power to move to Bayern this summer.

Just one point you make which I think is a little unfair, that we lost to Belgium reserves, in fairness that game was England reserves v Belgium reserves and not our full strength team.

But even some of the younger players are not as good as they are made out to be. Pickford, for example seems like he's reached his ceiling. We are very good going forward, but defensively are still very poor and I can't think of a youngster coming through in the back line that could have world class potential.

Intelligent replies !! and not a mention of Brexit !

We are indeed a work in progress and as mentioned I think as such we’re good and as another poster said “ we’re top 10 “ This euro nations thing is a crock of Shiite anyway so it’s no great barometer .

My overall concern is the sheer lack of game time our youngest talent gets in the rancid yet diamond encrusted toilet which is the premier league where an exotic name seems to add 15m to anyone’s price tag .Its painful to see the 2 euro finals -4 teams and so little home grown on display

Ali
Kane
Trippier
Rose
Alexander Arnold
Robertson
Winks
Gomez
Henderson
Milner

Quite a number of home grown players in the CL final.

Awful performance by England, i thought all the City players were shocking apart from Walker, trying to play out from the back was a total disaster and we still insisted on playing that way when it was obvious that it wasn't working, a proper shambles.

I'm absolutely convinced that Intentional football is at it's lowest quality ever... Well certainly in my life time and I include the 'Carlton Palmer' era in that

It's been poor for a while and I can't see the overall quality improving anytime soon.

So what I am saying is... If we can't make it in this era, we never will!

Are we going to conveniently ignore the fact that 6 players who started on the bench last night would probably have all started, had it not been for the CL final a few days prior?

Both fullbacks, the midfield and Kane didn't start. And Henderson didn't even pass his fitness test, he made the bench because he impressed Southgate in a training session hours before the game.

We are clearly a better side than the performance showed last night. As we've shown by reaching the semi-finals in the first place, beating Spain and Croatia along the way.

Speaking of full backs, please bring back Trippier, all is forgiven.

Falcon wrote:Speaking of full backs, please bring back Trippier, all is forgiven.

But then you'd have people mentioning that players should be picked on their form - which would surely leave Trippier out?

TVC15 wrote:Ali
Kane
Trippier
Rose
Alexander Arnold
Robertson
Winks
Gomez
Henderson
Milner

Quite a number of home grown players in the CL final.

Though I think 1 English player ? started in the Europa final .Maybe 6/7 of the above started . Spurs to their credit do have some cracking English talent .

This is why I'll always cheer for Spurs or Liverpool against the likes of Arsenal or Chelsea.

United and City are somewhere in the middle.

AlargeClaret wrote:Though I think 1 English player ? started in the Europa final .Maybe 6/7 of the above started . Spurs to their credit do have some cracking English talent .

Yep I know but Chelsea and Arsenal especially have got to be 2 of the worst teams in the last couple of decades for not bringing through English talent.
When you think about United, Spurs, Liverpool and when City to a degree they have all developed or bought lots of English young players in the last few years.
Spurs have done this on a limited budget which is even more impressive with Kane, Ali, Tripps, Walker, Winks, and Dier all brought into the club for relatively peanuts or through their development system.

If Sancho scores the header to put us 2-0 up nobody whinges.
That's football.

I am glad none of our players apart from a goalkeeper have gone out there delaying a much needed break.

massively overrated, world cup was a failure because most of the usual "big teams" weren't even there and england still didnt reach the final.
That is highly unlikely to happen again. Added to that its 53 years since they won their one and only competition, that is quite shocking.
Clinging on desperately to 66 is embarrassing, when our rivals can boast several wins and runners up spots in the same period.
Yes there are decent players in the current set up, but it should be obvious that collectively they are nowhere near good enough.

Hyped players from media darling teams.
Alli.Rashford.Linguard.Henderson.Stones.Walker .Maguire all average to poor as intermational players.
Henderson is s poor mans Stevie G with little end product and too fond of a back or sideways pass.
Rashford has the ball control skills of a man in wellies.
Only Kane and Sterling looked at least half decent last night

England are a little bit short of the best teams in the world but are certainly a better side than they showed last night. I guess you'd only say they were overrated if you heard people rating them higher than that and I'm not sure I have.

Clearly the midfield was weak last night - Henderson & Alli instead of Delph & Rice would have stepped it up a level. We lost a striker who was worrying them to injury and replaced him with a half fit Kane who did little other than foul people. The back 4 all had stinkers - to some degree that was down to the lack of options in front of them when they were trying to play out, but equally there was a lot of poor decision making on show. We've had a lot of success in the last 12 months playing that way so I think we should avoid overreacting to what was clearly a bad night.

I think Southgate has made huge strides forward and the young players he has introduced to the set up are full of promise. Writing them off at this stage of what is clearly a work in progress seems a little unreasonable.

I don't think they are massively over-rated, but definitely a touch.
They did well in the World Cup as under-dogs, which suited the calibre of player and style of play.
But now, they aren't underdogs, or don't play like them, and it's stopped working.

That said, we have a lot of 'good' players, if not great. And that could be enough, however I genuinely think the thing missing is an imposing defender. I think Southgate though McGuire could become that player, but he hasn't, and looks pretty average without any potential. I can't see an English Virgil Van Dyke appearing from anywhere at the moment and I don't think Pickford has the presence that could do the same job.

I think England are a 'not quite' team with some players that have the potential to be fantastic - But I don't think anyone thinks any different to this.
This time last year we knew the England team was poor. We now think they are better than poor, but they ain't great.

Bacchus wrote:England are a little bit short of the best teams in the world but are certainly a better side than they showed last night. I guess you'd only say they were overrated if you heard people rating them higher than that and I'm not sure I have.

Clearly the midfield was weak last night - Henderson & Alli instead of Delph & Rice would have stepped it up a level. We lost a striker who was worrying them to injury and replaced him with a half fit Kane who did little other than foul people. The back 4 all had stinkers - to some degree that was down to the lack of options in front of them when they were trying to play out, but equally there was a lot of poor decision making on show. We've had a lot of success in the last 12 months playing that way so I think we should avoid overreacting to what was clearly a bad night.

I think Southgate has made huge strides forward and the young players he has introduced to the set up are full of promise. Writing them off at this stage of what is clearly a work in progress seems a little unreasonable.

Spot on. Southgate himself has said many times that we aren't where he wants us to be yet, so I don't feel we're overrated at all. Fans know our recent history, with how we've been bigged up and then failed, so I feel more fans are understanding what he's trying to do under his reign. But there's also a lot who will clearly never praise England, but just enjoy knocking the side.

I think one of our big issues is that we don't have any world-class midfielders to control the side. Ross Barkley, Jordan Henderson, Eric Dier, etc are nowhere near.

It may be that Foden or Rice or another will emerge but we're a long way from the quality of someone like de Jong or Pogba.

I don't think they're overrated for the sole reason that I think most people probably don't rate them that highly.

Woodleyclaret.

Rashford has the ball control skills of a man in wellies.

I think the optomism and praise that has followed on from our success in the World Cup belies the fact that we had a very favourable draw of games. Against the better teams we got spanked.

Long Time Lurker wrote:I think the optomism and praise that has followed on from our success in the World Cup belies the fact that we had a very favourable draw of games. Against the better teams we got spanked.

Who has “spanked” England under Southgate ?
How many times have they even been beaten in 90 minutes ?

Desperately need Winks to stay fit and Foden to come through. Midfielders who are comfortable receiving and passing the ball.

Spijed wrote:But even some of the younger players are not as good as they are made out to be. Pickford, for example seems like he's reached his ceiling. We are very good going forward, but defensively are still very poor and I can't think of a youngster coming through in the back line that could have world class potential.

Pickford has never reached a ceiling

They were crying out for a player like Winks last night - or even Jack Grealish....someone comfortable taking the ball from the defence who can play on the turn and dictate the pace of the game. Winks played well in CL final and Grealish has played like that all season for Villa and will be interesting if he can take the step up - he looks to me like he can if he stays fit

TVC15 wrote:Who has “spanked” England under Southgate ?
How many times have they even been beaten in 90 minutes ?

And on top of that, we've recently beaten both Spain and Croatia and deservedly so.

Wow. Total overreaction to one defeat. England have been one of the best sides in the world for the past couple of years - beating some very good teams in that period.

FactualFrank wrote:And on top of that, we've recently beaten both Spain and Croatia and deservedly so.

My team is Italy as that’s my heritage but I’ve always wanted England to do well.
Italy are struggling right now and have been for a while - Serie A and the international team.
At the same time the Premier League and England recently have gone from strength to strength. The success of England teams at all different levels bodes well for the future - doesn’t mean they’ll win the World Cup or Euros but they are at last showing togetherness, a desire to play for England and they have some very good players.

When Italy won the World Cups in 1982 and 2006 they were not favourites or the best team in the world at all - but they had many of the ingredients this England team have recently shown.
Southgate has made a big difference as they are doing as well now as they have for years and as individuals many of them are quite a bit behind Rooney, Gerrard, Scholes, Beckham, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole etc in terms of pure ability.

Too many players not understanding when to release the ball and avoid being tackled with it, Barkley for one and Stones , Maguire all at fault. Maguire charging forward at a rate of knots but didn't have a real idea who he was going to pass to. Other players not ready to receive the ball and very little running across the line to set up an opportunity - players not on the same wavelength !
BBC gossip says Maguire wants to turn down Utd to join Man City - ye gods !!

Maguire seems to be better at attacking than he is defending. I'd sooner Gomez get more of a chance.

FactualFrank wrote:Maguire seems to be better at attacking than he is defending. I'd sooner Gomez get more of a chance.

Isn't that the modern way in football in that defending is not the main priority, especially with sweeper-keepers and attacking full-backs?

Spijed wrote:Isn't that the modern way in football in that defending is not the main priority, especially with sweeper-keepers and attacking full-backs?

Erm, not with central defenders, no.
A central defender being able to attack set-pieces is a nice bonus to have, but it's how they defend which is what matters first and foremost. He's good at attacking from set-pieces, but is iffy when defending, which is worrying when he puts an England shirt on.

Yes.

FactualFrank wrote:Maguire seems to be better at attacking than he is defending. I'd sooner Gomez get more of a chance.

Agree Frank, Maguire is ok facing forward but he's slow, ungainly, with the turning speed of a supertanker. Gomez was an answer to a previous post which asked if there were any young CBs coming through plus he might learn from Van Dyke. It's too early to say for some of the U-21's cos CB's don't grow into the role till 24/25......even Van Dyke dropped a few ******** at S/hampton in the early days.

Yes. Especiamkh when the manager insists they play out, at all costs. All costs, equals full press, mistakes, goals.

You have to allow for common sense and a long ball.

For a long time now form players have not been selected and our U23 not been good enough despite their billing from Aidy and Southgate.
At least 6 of the starters were carrying injuries or on Stones case sitting on the bench and not match fit
This wont change till be adopt a more rigorous selection process and stop playing to the press.

I think International football as a whole has declined in quality and I'm not sure how. Spain, Germany, England, Italy, Holland, Argentina, Brazil have all had much better sides in quite recent years.

It's only really France and Belgium who appear to have their ''golden generation'' right now (out of the very top nations) and even then, you could argue France have had better sides in the recent past but i'd say this is their best side in a long while and they appear to be producing the best youngsters in the world right now. I think Croatia could be put in that group too, but even then, they have been horribly poor since the WC.

KRBFC wrote:I think International football as a whole has declined in quality and I'm not sure how. Spain, Germany, England, Italy, Holland, Argentina, Brazil have all had much better sides in quite recent years.

It's only really France and Belgium who appear to have their ''golden generation'' right now (out of the very top nations) and even then, you could argue France have had better sides in the recent past but i'd say this is their best side in a long while and they appear to be producing the best youngsters in the world right now. I think Croatia could be put in that group too, but even then, they have been horribly poor since the WC.

When Jesse Linguard can get a start for England we know how shite we really are.

The answer is ....

YES.

Honeymoon over.

IanMcL wrote:Honeymoon over.

Does that mean it's all downhill from here,just like my honeymoon was?

No, they're a very good side at full strength.

A rocky patch, Steve....could go either way. Brace yourself!