'Rooney rule' adopted by the EFL

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:14 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48555148

I'm not sure what to make of this,just seems like a box-ticking exercise and PC gone mad once more,even if clubs interview BAME candidates there is no compulsion to hire them.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:18 am

tiger76 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48555148

I'm not sure what to make of this,just seems like a box-ticking exercise and PC gone mad once more,even if clubs interview BAME candidates there is no compulsion to hire them.

Exactly. So they will hire based on the merits of the applicant. Therefore what's the problem? Well, i'm sure some people will tell us what their problem is.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:21 am

They have also introduced a no spying rule

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:25 am

Sol Campbell will be buzzing

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:25 am

Chester Perry wrote:They have also introduced a no spying rule

Leeds are screwed next season then

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:39 am

There are 3 English managers in The Premier league. or just 15%. Yet white british forms 80+% of this country. English managers are clearly under represented.

At the end of last season there was 5 'Black' managers at 92 clubs. Thats over 5%. Yet 'black' people form 3.5% of the country. So quite clearly they are actually over represented and not overlooked.

They are trying to make an issue and cause division where it doesnt exist.

its a nonsense rule. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Just give the best man the job.

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:34 am

Deleted

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:36 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:There are 3 English managers in The Premier league. or just 15%. Yet white british forms 80+% of this country. English managers are clearly under represented.

At the end of last season there was 5 'Black' managers at 92 clubs. Thats over 5%. Yet 'black' people form 3.5% of the country. So quite clearly they are actually over represented and not overlooked.

They are trying to make an issue and cause division where it doesnt exist.

its a nonsense rule. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Just give the best man the job.

This is exactly my thoughts. What actually is the correct representation of BAME managers? Not that we should be putting quotas on ethnicity. Isn’t that racist in itself?

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:44 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:There are 3 English managers in The Premier league. or just 15%. Yet white british forms 80+% of this country. English managers are clearly under represented.

At the end of last season there was 5 'Black' managers at 92 clubs. Thats over 5%. Yet 'black' people form 3.5% of the country. So quite clearly they are actually over represented and not overlooked.

They are trying to make an issue and cause division where it doesnt exist.

its a nonsense rule. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Just give the best man the job.

They will.

As for your stats, what percentage of professional footballers are BAME? And what percentage of managers are ex-professional footballers?

GordonvaleClaret · Post by **GordonvaleClaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:04 am

Surely they must also reference religion and gender otherwise it's just unacceptably biased.

OJClaret94 · Post by **OJClaret94** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:29 am

It’s a huge problem. You only need to compare Sol Campbell’s experience with that of Ryan Giggs, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Paul Scholes etc. ... And arguably he’s outperformed the lot of em.

Fretters · Post by **Fretters** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:18 am

I just can't buy the fact that clubs who so willingly employ hundreds of BAME players, suddenly become racist when it comes to hiring them as coaches. Do clubs seriously turn away potentially great managers because of the colour of their skin? Do they ********. If there is a lack of BAME coaches, it's purely due to a lack of decent applicants, surely.

Furthermore, surely it's insulting to an applicant who otherwise would have no chance of getting an interview, just because of their skin colour. You're completely wasting their time.

stateofthenation · Post by **stateofthenation** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:53 am

First thing: My guess is that the 5% is indeed unrepresentative. In order for that to be true it would mean currently that the split is 19/1 for every twenty players hanging up their boots. I will stop short of guessing the actual figure, I will leave that to the fact checkers of this board

ALSO NOTE: This point prevalence figure isn’t a particularly good measure, as there are only 92 positions available at one point, random variation can change this significant overnight. I would suggest looking at how many managers in the last ten years in total for the 4 leagues and then calculate the %. If it’s anywhere near 5% I will be surprised to say the least.

Second: I seriously doubt that racism in board rooms is to blame for any under representation. However that does not mean ‘unconscious bias’ isn’t playing a major part.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:56 am

Not bothered about this. Always curious though as to how you decide who’s ‘BAME’ in a world which is increasingly mixed race - a great thing by the way. Is there someone sat with a colour chart?

If say, Ross Barkley goes into management would he satisfy the Rooney Rule at interview stage on the basis of a Jamaican grandfather? Genuine question.

Could you self identify as BAME to help get on a shortlist or does someone at the EFL decide that for you?

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:25 am

NottsClaret wrote:Not bothered about this. Always curious though as to how you decide who’s ‘BAME’ in a world which is increasingly mixed race - a great thing by the way. Is there someone sat with a colour chart?

If say, Ross Barkley goes into management would he satisfy the Rooney Rule at interview stage on the basis of a Jamaican grandfather? Genuine question.

Could you self identify as BAME to help get on a shortlist or does someone at the EFL decide that for you?

There is a “standard” list that you get on forms from NHS/government etc

White
A British
B Irish
C Any other White background

Mixed
D White and Black Caribbean
E White and Black African
F White and Asian
G Any other mixed background

Asian or Asian British
H Indian
J Pakistani
K Bangladeshi
L Any other Asian background

Black or Black British
M Caribbean
N African
P Any other Black background

Other Ethnic Groups
R Chinese
S Any other ethnic group

Z Not stated

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:32 am

OJClaret94 wrote:It’s a huge problem. You only need to compare Sol Campbell’s experience with that of Ryan Giggs, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Paul Scholes etc. ... And arguably he’s outperformed the lot of em.

Ryan Giggs is mixed race, isn’t he?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:53 am

TheFamilyCat wrote:Ryan Giggs is mixed race, isn’t he?

Correct. Half sierra leonean.

Dont let that fact get in the way.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:57 am

wilks_bfc wrote:There is a “standard” list that you get on forms from NHS/government etc

White
A British
B Irish
C Any other White background

Mixed
D White and Black Caribbean
E White and Black African
F White and Asian
G Any other mixed background

Asian or Asian British
H Indian
J Pakistani
K Bangladeshi
L Any other Asian background

Black or Black British
M Caribbean
N African
P Any other Black background

Other Ethnic Groups
R Chinese
S Any other ethnic group
Z Not stated

I get it but we protested when under Apartheid on entering SA you were asked your race-to which the late John Arlott replied "HUMAN"

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:15 am

mdd2 wrote:I get it but we protested when under Apartheid on entering SA you were asked your race-to which the late John Arlott replied "HUMAN"

I was just answering Notts question about how BAME is decided, and it’s basically a body not in the “white” category.

I do prefer Arlotts response though.
Whatever your race or colour should have no impact. If you’re good enough and meet the required criteria for the position then you deserve an opportunity to interview for it

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:31 am

tiger76 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48555148

I'm not sure what to make of this,just seems like a box-ticking exercise and PC gone mad once more,even if clubs interview BAME candidates there is no compulsion to hire them.

That's correct, but in 3 years, there can be a stat published that shows 500 BAME people interviewd for x amount of jobs, with ONLY x many ( or none at all ) getting the job!

Then it drums up more friction/ debate.

Same things happen in many different jobs where boxes or quotas need ticking.
Sadly if implified it can ONLY ever match or reduce the quality/level.
Such a shame that the genuinely better person for the job misses out purely down to box ticking or quotas.

I wouldn't like to get the gig/job/role purely because I had too, and wasnt actually the best person for it.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:02 am

I thought this was going to be about an upper age limit on who the players sleep with.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 am

What happens if no BAME people apply? Do they have to find a token BAME off the street, out of the ticket office e etc to complete the process?
Or what happens if someone who is dark skinned but identifies as being white applies? Can they tick BAME off the list then? Surely that would infringe xer human rights?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:54 am

Let’s make it compulsory that you cannot be white British to manage in British football.

It would seem the easiest way to enforce diversity while causing the least disruption to the system.

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:13 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Let’s make it compulsory that you cannot be white British to manage in British football.

It would seem the easiest way to enforce diversity while causing the least disruption to the system.

You forgot to add heterosexual to that Elwa.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:21 pm

mdd2 wrote:You forgot to add heterosexual to that Elwa.

I don’t think being heterosexual is the be all and end all. It has to depend on whether the individual is essentialist gay or non- essentialist. There is no point banning essentialists they look the same as the rest of the British whites and will only add to ill feeling.

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:24 pm

Damo wrote:What happens if no BAME people apply? Do they have to find a token BAME off the street, out of the ticket office e etc to complete the process?

That’s a good point.

When we last appointed a manager we did interview a BAME candidate but he didn’ make the short list. That was done because both parties wanted the interview to take place. It would, in my view, be downright ridiculous to interviews BAME candidate just because the rules say we have to. We would be wasting our own time but worse still we would be wasting his time.

There maybe are clubs who would not appoint based on colour. I know one Burnley manager of the past who was told he could only sign white players. But this ruling doesn’t change anything.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:38 pm

If I was coloured, I would feel insulted to think I was only being interviewed because of the colour of my skin.

It isnt quite positive discrimination but nearly as bad. How to solve the problem, if there is one. Really its society's problem, and until that is resolved moves like this are a) ******* in the wind and b) placing on footballs shoulders an issue that isnt really their problem.

As football fans none of us could give a **** what colour the manager is, 90+% of boardrooms will feel the same. Success is the only measure that matters.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:47 pm

I would only want an interview if I had a decent shout of getting the job rather than being interviewed just to tick a box.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:04 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:If I was coloured, I would feel insulted to think I was only being interviewed because of the colour of my skin.

It isnt quite positive discrimination but nearly as bad. How to solve the problem, if there is one. Really its society's problem, and until that is resolved moves like this are a) ******* in the wind and b) placing on footballs shoulders an issue that isnt really their problem.

As football fans none of us could give a **** what colour the manager is, 90+% of boardrooms will feel the same. Success is the only measure that matters.

The point is there isn’t a problem. There perhaps was in the past but does anyone truly think even a pariah of a club like those backward racist thugs in East Lancashire would not welcome a manager who was blue with pink dots if it brought success.

Old men trying to be right on... and not realising that ship sailed long ago. I literally cannot think of a single person I know who is colour prejudiced.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:15 pm

elwaclaret wrote:The point is there isn’t a problem. There perhaps was in the past but does anyone truly think even a pariah of a club like those backward racist thugs in East Lancashire would not welcome a manager who was blue with pink dots if it brought success.

Old men trying to be right on... and not realising that ship sailed long ago. I literally cannot think of a single person I know who is colour prejudiced.

I’m pleased to learn that racism is a thing of the past.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Greenmile wrote:I’m pleased to learn that racism is a thing of the past.

Did I say racism was a thing of the past. I was pointing out that it is not preventing recruitment and that the country is evolving naturally and does not need arbitrary rules that once again causes division. Or do you think there will not be those equally opposed to positive recruitment.

It is divisive and unnecessary in British football. Ten years ago there were no ethnic managers, just how many fans have you heard complaining what colour a manager was in the dugout?

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:25 pm

Not being racist is not enough now sadly.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:11 pm

mdd2 wrote:I get it but we protested when under Apartheid on entering SA you were asked your race-to which the late John Arlott replied "HUMAN"

Exactly.

I always tick "refuse to say" and if that option isn't there I will scrawl "refused" over the question.

It's a disgrace way to categorize people.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:16 pm

Just how brown does one's skin have to be to be classified as BAME or POC?

Do the EFL have a colour chart of what is / isn't acceptable.

Wilks has stated there is a "standard" list but does anyone else note how racist and -it has to be said- Imperial and Anglo-centric that list is? Some "ethnicities" are apparently described by nationality (Indian, Chinese etc), some are categorized by colour (white) and others by whole continents (Africa, Asia) there is no logic or sense to it except that it appears to best fit the nations that were ruled under the old British Empire.

Are these racists harking back to the days when Britain was the largest empire in the world?

Don't they see how out of place that is in our modern world?

Does "not stated" or "any other ethnicity" count as BAME?

The whole concept is a mess.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:22 pm

Is there a lack of non white managers because they believe the system is rigged against them, so they don't bother applying, or getting their badges?
If they start to believe they'll get a fairer chance then this could lead to more former players taking their badges.

It's good to see new managers getting a chance, instead of seeing the likes of Hughes, Pardew, Pulis merry go rounding various jobs and not really doing anything new/different.

Personally I thought Sol Campbell was just all mouth but he's proven me, and others, wrong with his efforts this last season and fair play to him, but why has he had to start much lower down the league than someone like Lampard?

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:06 pm

Apologies if someone asked this earlier, if they have I have missed it, but... What if there are no BAME applicants? Does the post have to remain empty until a BAME applicant applies?

How long before the team HAS to field an openly gay player? Or a female?

It's all a bit too silly for me is all this. The job should go to the best person for that particular job, regardless of colour/race/creed/sex/sexual orientation. I'd feel a bit **** if I knew I was only getting an interview for a job due to my ethnicity. In fact, I wouldn't apply.

Incidentally, the figures for BAME managers should be higher... that AWFUL football club that is BHA should NEVER have sacked Chris Hughton.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:07 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Did I say racism was a thing of the past...

You seemed to imply it when you said...

elwaclaret wrote:The point is there isn’t a problem... .... I literally cannot think of a single person I know who is colour prejudiced.

elwaclaret wrote: I was pointing out that it is not preventing recruitment and that the country is evolving naturally and does not need arbitrary rules that once again causes division. Or do you think there will not be those equally opposed to positive recruitment?

Of course there will. Racists for starters.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:55 pm

And so where if FOOTBALL do you not see condemnation of racist chanting on all sides?

Do you really think managers are chosen because they are white?

No me neither, so why does it need a rule?

As I say why may another divisive race issue where there isn’t one and things are progressing and have progressed beyond recognition. When I started watching a black player could not go onto the field without a chorus of monkey chants now we have managers of ethnic origins managing at the highest levels of sport... who wouldn’t have taken Company as player manager at Burnley had SD left.. . .. that is natural progress and the only way.

Every action creates equal reaction.... why do we want agitation when everything is progressing so nicely? Some people just like disharmony and to feel “ right on”

KippaxFifaHD · Post by **KippaxFifaHD** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:00 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Is there a lack of non white managers because they believe the system is rigged against them, so they don't bother applying, or getting their badges?
If they start to believe they'll get a fairer chance then this could lead to more former players taking their badges.

It's good to see new managers getting a chance, instead of seeing the likes of Hughes, Pardew, Pulis merry go rounding various jobs and not really doing anything new/different.

Personally I thought Sol Campbell was just all mouth but he's proven me, and others, wrong with his efforts this last season and fair play to him, but why has he had to start much lower down the league than someone like Lampard?

Probably because Sol Campbell didn't apply for the Derby job and Frank Lampard did.
Just because someone starts further down the pyramid than someone else it doesn't mean that it wasn't their decision; Sol Campbell may have decided he wanted to learn his trade in the lower leagues whereas Lampard was more adventurous.
For me the only people keeping BAME as a minority are those who still make them out to be such. All the level playing field and equality stuff goes straight out the window as soon as we bring in rules such as this where we specifically mark them out as a minority, so imo this rule is rediculous, as people running football clubs would care about results, not the ethnicity of the manager.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:24 pm

KippaxFifaHD wrote:Probably because Sol Campbell didn't apply for the Derby job and Frank Lampard did.
Just because someone starts further down the pyramid than someone else it doesn't mean that it wasn't their decision; Sol Campbell may have decided he wanted to learn his trade in the lower leagues whereas Lampard was more adventurous.
For me the only people keeping BAME as a minority are those who still make them out to be such. All the level playing field and equality stuff goes straight out the window as soon as we bring in rules such as this where we specifically mark them out as a minority, so imo this rule is rediculous, as people running football clubs would care about results, not the ethnicity of the manager.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46394289" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:45 pm

Lots of Black players not happy with the ruling. Frank Sinclair for one.

Siddo · Post by **Siddo** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:54 am

I see this thread has brought out the usual suspects. This tweet perfectly sums up the opposition to the Rooney rule....
https://twitter.com/OllieHolt22/status/ ... 11489?s=09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:07 pm

.
Paul Swift
@sybiltherabbit
·
15h
But until a World Class black manager succeeds in another league they won’t get a job at a top club in England. This rule won’t make any difference whatsoever, in the same way there are no English managers in the Premier League top 10. They can’t compete either.

I'll need to check but Sarri wasn't, and still isn't, a world class manager, nor is Solskjaer yet they're at two of the top English clubs and Sarri is about to takeover at Juventus apparently.
White managers just seem more likely to get interviewed and hired for managerial jobs at all levels.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:13 pm

It will just turn out like when councils have to get 3 or 4 companies to tender for projects. It still goes to the company they want to use and the other companies get sick of wasting their time and expense so stop tendering.
But the councils pat themselves on the back for being fair and letting them have a go.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:19 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I'll need to check but Sarri wasn't, and still isn't, a world class manager, nor is Solskjaer yet they're at two of the top English clubs and Sarri is about to takeover at Juventus apparently.
White managers just seem more likely to get interviewed and hired for managerial jobs at all levels.

Sarri is a poor example. His first 6 managerial jobs, over 10 years, were at clubs too small to have their own Wikipedia page - Italian level 5 (which is a lot lower level than our conference) and below.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:48 pm

dsr wrote:Sarri is a poor example. His first 6 managerial jobs, over 10 years, were at clubs too small to have their own Wikipedia page - Italian level 5 (which is a lot lower level than our conference) and below.

Yet he was handed the Chelsea job despite never winning any trophy of significance before, so what made him a better choice than anyone else?
Can't be due to the pretty football style he allegedly has his team's play..

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:54 pm

I have no idea why Sarri got the Chelsea job, but it wasn't to do with race. If Chelsea were determined to employ a white man and only a white man, they could still have found a white man who had won trophies. It's not as if he was the only white man available.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:35 pm

My original comment about world class managers was in reference to one of the Twitter comments though about a black manager needing to be world class to get a top job in England, I used Sarri as an example that a white bloke doesn't need to be world class.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:47 pm

Always wary around any discussion on 'race'. The more you try and stick labels and quotas on people, the more ridiculous it gets. We're all African at some point afterall.

Anyway, why are white people so under represented in football on the playing side in the Premier League or with England? Do you reckon black people are just better at sport or do you think football club owners, coaches and managers look to sign non-white players because of an unconscious bias that a white lad won't be good at football.

SonofPog · Post by **SonofPog** » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:57 pm

NottsClaret wrote:….why are white people so under represented in football on the playing side in the Premier League or with England?...

White people lack the mental intelligence to play the modern game.