Leeds move for Vydra

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Holtyclaret
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Holtyclaret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:56 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:If there is any truth to the rumour then I'm with Frank on this one. Vydra is a better player than Jay and the financials don't make sense.

A lot of people are jumping on the bargain £5m band wagon, but according to the rumour mill that isn't the price he is going for. The actual price is £10m (£5m now and another £5m in twelve months time ) which is a huge difference.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... -1-9813010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay, so we sell Vydra for £6m, making a loss on our purchase. Then we add another £4m from the transfer kitty to what we might receive for Vydra and spend £10m on Jay. Vydra drops down into the Championship, receives game time and good service at Leeds, and his value goes up to the £15m mark for a good Championship striker.

I also agree with Frank that Vydra could be exactly what Leeds need to secure promotion. They are struggling to sign Roofe up to a new contract to prevent him leaving on a free transfer. Chasing Vydra could move that along or it could allow them to ship out Roofe in this window while his stock is higher than it should be.

Jay comes in and sits on our bench as a third option, fourth if we manage to beat other clubs to the signing of Che, and we watch that £10m evaporate over his contract until he is worth nothing in respect to his resale value. He wasn't even that good last season against Championship opposition. Take away the eight soft goal penalties and all you have is hard work and an average goal threat in a less competitive league.

I could get behind spending £6m on Jay as a replacement for Crouch, to correct the baffling sale of Vokes, but as a £10m replacement and the loss of Vydra for a low amount ? No

Oh, but Che will be the replacement for Vydra.

Possibly, but only if we manage to sign him when other clubs are supposedly interested. Even if we match the transfer fee that Birmingham have in mind we will probably lose out to another club who could tempt him with higher wages.

Keeping our wages within a tight band helps solidarity, but it means any other team can offer outside that band to beat us to the punch and a lot of clubs are more than capable of doing that.

Do we break our wage structure and push everything forward to stay in line with a new high wage earner or do we shrug our shoulders and miss out ?

I would place Che in the £20m+ category given all of the supposed competition for his signature. Thanks to Birminghams "shoot on sight" protocol his form was outstanding last season, but so was Jukes. Prior to that the pair of them were very ordinary.

Would we pay £10M+ to bring back Juke on the basis of last season?

Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of Che, but £20m would be a very hefty price to pay for him. He might go for less, but if we experience any serious competition for his signature I doubt it. An awful lot will depend on how firm the supposed interest from other clubs actually is in him and how much they have to spend.

£20m is what I would expect us to pay for a striker with proven top level credentials. It isn't the price I would be rushing to pay for a player who is untested in the PL on the back of one amazing season. I suppose it is the price range we have condemned ourselves to by limiting all our transfer options to the domestic market once again. I can see the potential for an increase in value, but it is a big price tag and a big risk.

The bigger risk is that we sell Vydra, lose out on Che, and we start next season with a strike force of Barnes, Wood, Jay and Crouch.

Even if we sell Vydra and bring in Che and Jay we could end up spending £24m of our very limited funds to improve our bench. ( 20 + 10 ) - 6 = 24

Did the recruitment department forget that we could really use another quality midfielder or are we looking to cover that base with Harrison Reed.

Vydra is better and younger than Jay. Selling him so we can pay an extra £4m for a lesser player with no future resale value is lunacy. The only real argument I can see in support of it is that Jay would fulfil the support function that Juke Provided for Che last season. If we keep Vydra and add Che we won't be able to replicate that dynamic as easily.

Our window could include

Paying way over the odds for Che, because we tried to low ball Birmingham at Christmas and haven't scouted any viable alternatives in the last six months.

Swapping Vydra for Jay.

Bolstering our midfield with a pricey domestic addition who will offer more of the same after he has adjusted to the PL.

Replacing the 17 to 18 players who left our development set up with a single player that we scouted from the ground of our U23 squad. Senior could go on to establish himself as a first team player, and I really hope he does, but it doesn't say a lot in terms of "no stone left uncovered" scouting.

That doesn't strike me as a great window.
What a load of bed-wetting gobbledygook UTC

yosserhughes
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by yosserhughes » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:07 pm

Long Time Lurker could put a glass eye to sleep
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summitclaret
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by summitclaret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:10 pm

I refuse to quote LTL but if Jay comes he starts as he better than what we have. Vydra has to go. Sean hardly ever brought him on despite others being tired. He is off. It's not rocket science.

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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Long Time Lurker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:17 pm

Holtyclaret wrote:What a load of bed-wetting gobbledygook UTC
I prefer to see it as a reasonable assessment of a volatile market with the potential for pitfalls as well as positives.

I find it more constructive than "one of our own" heart felt decision making on the basis of a headline £5m fee that is only half of the story.

If you view the world through rose tinted spectacles, expecting everything to go your way as you add more and more layers of complexity to a scenario, then the chance of the **** hitting the fan increases.

If you plan for and expect the worst your chances of being pleasantly surprised increase.
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TVC15
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Ever heard the saying “less is more” ?

Not only would you never get a job in football recruitment i think you can exclude communications from your list of aspirational careers !

Bosscat
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Bosscat » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:It’s a bit of an in-joke, Bosscat.
Ahhhhhh sorry :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

NL Claret
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by NL Claret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:49 pm

I'm not going to quote long time lurker for obvious reasons.

I'm not an expert although some might be able to answer the question.

Burnley signed Vydra for say £12m, if it was spread over 3 years, say £5m upfront and the rest in instalments. What happens if we sell him after 1 season? Do we have to pay the instalments if the transfer fee for him is less than £12m? Do Leeds pay Derby?

What I think I'm basically saying is that we probably haven't paid the figure in full that was banded about last summer so we won't have lost the difference. Players values do depreciate over the course of their contract so we haven't actually lost that money. It's like cars, you won't get what you paid for it but you used it for that time period. So vydra's one season cost us £4m (guess) plus wages and signing on fee.

Long Time Lurker
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Long Time Lurker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:21 pm

NL Claret wrote:I'm not going to quote long time lurker for obvious reasons.

I'm not an expert although some might be able to answer the question.

Burnley signed Vydra for say £12m, if it was spread over 3 years, say £5m upfront and the rest in instalments. What happens if we sell him after 1 season? Do we have to pay the instalments if the transfer fee for him is less than £12m? Do Leeds pay Derby?

What I think I'm basically saying is that we probably haven't paid the figure in full that was banded about last summer so we won't have lost the difference. Players values do depreciate over the course of their contract so we haven't actually lost that money. It's like cars, you won't get what you paid for it but you used it for that time period. So vydra's one season cost us £4m (guess) plus wages and signing on fee.
We would still be liable for the outstanding amount we owe to Derby for him. However, what we might receive for him would be added to our balance sheet to offset that expenditure in terms our our assets and cash flow.

It's like buying a car on HP. You can't leave the garage, sell the car to someone else and write off the amount you owe to the garage.

Simply put, if we paid £12m for him and we sell him for £6m we lose £6m.

Edit

Oops, if the amount we agreed to pay Derby for Vydra includes any conditional clauses like pay x if he score y goals or makes z appearances then we wouldn't have to pay Derby those amounts unless they had included contractual clauses that state otherwise. Even if he satisfied those conditions elsewhere.

NL Claret
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by NL Claret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:56 pm

So without knowing the clauses it will be impossible to state how much Burnley will lose if they sell Vydra now for £6m, possibly also guessing on his undisclosed transfer fee?

Jakubs Tash
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Jakubs Tash » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:Simply put, if we paid £12m for him and we sell him for £6m we lose £6m.
I'm pretty sure we paid nearer £8-9m for Vydra. And I'm almost certain the fee would have been amortised over the contract length.

Why on earth do you think we will sell Vydra for £6m? No chance.

You don't half talk some rubbish.....and for some reason you have to do it in a biblical amount of words.
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TVC15
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:07 pm

I doubt very much that Leeds would pay Derby.

Our contract is with Derby - i’m guessing it would include clauses and conditions about what happens if we sell Vydra before the staged payments have been completed.
If Leeds bought Vydra - then that would be a new contract between ourselves and Leeds.
There will be no contract or agreement between Leeds and Derby.

Whether we would lose out or not I suspect we will never find out - i’m not sure the published accounts would show this level of detail on individual purchases and sales.

If we are talking about “winners and losers” the only guaranteed winner will be Vydra’s agent !

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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by NL Claret » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:20 pm

So in terms of undisclosed fees, amortisation (which I don't totally understand) and staged payments, in the modern world of transfers it's not really possible to put the figure lost unless you are an accountant and looked at the books.

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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by TVC15 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:46 pm

Amortisation is basically a legal way of spreading the costs of buying a player so that the whole of the fee is not taken off your profit and loss account in one big hit in the year you buy the player.

The transfer fee is capitalized on the balance sheet and is amortized over the length of his contract.
Eg a player is bought for 50 million over a five year contract, the transfer value is amortized for 10 million every year. In the balance sheet there is a 50 million investment but in the income statement there is only 10 million amortization for the next five years. This will make net profit look more stable yearly.

It’s not to be confused with staged or delayed payments which are more a cash flow thing. It’s also got nothing to do with a players value going up or down during that period.

Companies may do something similar if they have a big capital outlay like buying new premises or a big piece of plant / equipment

rob63
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by rob63 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:54 pm

Long Time Lurker wrote:If there is any truth to the rumour then I'm with Frank on this one. Vydra is a better player than Jay and the financials don't make sense.

A lot of people are jumping on the bargain £5m band wagon, but according to the rumour mill that isn't the price he is going for. The actual price is £10m (£5m now and another £5m in twelve months time ) which is a huge difference.

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... -1-9813010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Okay, so we sell Vydra for £6m, making a loss on our purchase. Then we add another £4m from the transfer kitty to what we might receive for Vydra and spend £10m on Jay. Vydra drops down into the Championship, receives game time and good service at Leeds, and his value goes up to the £15m mark for a good Championship striker.

I also agree with Frank that Vydra could be exactly what Leeds need to secure promotion. They are struggling to sign Roofe up to a new contract to prevent him leaving on a free transfer. Chasing Vydra could move that along or it could allow them to ship out Roofe in this window while his stock is higher than it should be.

Jay comes in and sits on our bench as a third option, fourth if we manage to beat other clubs to the signing of Che, and we watch that £10m evaporate over his contract until he is worth nothing in respect to his resale value. He wasn't even that good last season against Championship opposition. Take away the eight soft goal penalties and all you have is hard work and an average goal threat in a less competitive league.

I could get behind spending £6m on Jay as a replacement for Crouch, to correct the baffling sale of Vokes, but as a £10m replacement and the loss of Vydra for a low amount ? No

Oh, but Che will be the replacement for Vydra.

Possibly, but only if we manage to sign him when other clubs are supposedly interested. Even if we match the transfer fee that Birmingham have in mind we will probably lose out to another club who could tempt him with higher wages.

Keeping our wages within a tight band helps solidarity, but it means any other team can offer outside that band to beat us to the punch and a lot of clubs are more than capable of doing that.

Do we break our wage structure and push everything forward to stay in line with a new high wage earner or do we shrug our shoulders and miss out ?

I would place Che in the £20m+ category given all of the supposed competition for his signature. Thanks to Birminghams "shoot on sight" protocol his form was outstanding last season, but so was Jukes. Prior to that the pair of them were very ordinary.

Would we pay £10M+ to bring back Juke on the basis of last season?

Don't get me wrong, I really like the look of Che, but £20m would be a very hefty price to pay for him. He might go for less, but if we experience any serious competition for his signature I doubt it. An awful lot will depend on how firm the supposed interest from other clubs actually is in him and how much they have to spend.

£20m is what I would expect us to pay for a striker with proven top level credentials. It isn't the price I would be rushing to pay for a player who is untested in the PL on the back of one amazing season. I suppose it is the price range we have condemned ourselves to by limiting all our transfer options to the domestic market once again. I can see the potential for an increase in value, but it is a big price tag and a big risk.

The bigger risk is that we sell Vydra, lose out on Che, and we start next season with a strike force of Barnes, Wood, Jay and Crouch.

Even if we sell Vydra and bring in Che and Jay we could end up spending £24m of our very limited funds to improve our bench. ( 20 + 10 ) - 6 = 24

Did the recruitment department forget that we could really use another quality midfielder or are we looking to cover that base with Harrison Reed.

Vydra is better and younger than Jay. Selling him so we can pay an extra £4m for a lesser player with no future resale value is lunacy. The only real argument I can see in support of it is that Jay would fulfil the support function that Juke Provided for Che last season. If we keep Vydra and add Che we won't be able to replicate that dynamic as easily.

Our window could include

Paying way over the odds for Che, because we tried to low ball Birmingham at Christmas and haven't scouted any viable alternatives in the last six months.

Swapping Vydra for Jay.

Bolstering our midfield with a pricey domestic addition who will offer more of the same after he has adjusted to the PL.

Replacing the 17 to 18 players who left our development set up with a single player that we scouted from the ground of our U23 squad. Senior could go on to establish himself as a first team player, and I really hope he does, but it doesn't say a lot in terms of "no stone left uncovered" scouting.

That doesn't strike me as a great window.
I agree with most of what you say LTL, i hope that Mike Rigg would have made searching Europe the last 6 months for a viable alternative to Adams a priority along with a defensive M/F & a creative No8/No10 type player, after last seasons travails. If we were going to swap Vydra for anyone it should be in P/x for Adams or even at a pinch, Roofe, although he's had his injury problems.
Also, take no notice of posters who complain about the length of your posts. I find yours & other peoples longer posts interesting- it gives you time to make a qualified argument rather than the one-line semi-abusive posts that some use...... this is a board for putting forward a point of view, not just the headlines.......if you want a post in 140 characters, stick to twitter!
We've got to be willing to give Rigg a chance to deliver, I'm just unsure how he can get SD Premiership experience without buying pensioners, failures or emptying the dry powder room on transfer fees & wages :?
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Gp8419
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Gp8419 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:04 am

I ain’t reading through all that crap from previous posts like trying to find a needle in a haystack.Simple question is vydra leaving are likely to leave?

TVC15
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by TVC15 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:18 am

Gp8419 wrote:I ain’t reading through all that crap from previous posts like trying to find a needle in a haystack.Simple question is vydra leaving are likely to leave?
Nobody on this board knows the answer - hence the posting of “all that crap”.
If you want definitive answers on transfers a football forum is probably not the best place to look.

claretblue
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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by claretblue » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:37 am

Gp8419 wrote:Simple question is vydra leaving are likely to leave?
that's not a simple question! ;)

:D

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Re: Leeds move for Vydra

Post by Longsidebogs » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 am

Vydra is a good player who has been given no chance at all at Burnley. It’s hard to understand really, but I’m sure we will rue the day if he is allowed to leave this summer. We seem to go backwards with every passing transfer window and it’s just a matter of time before the trapdoor opens. Shame really.
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