BBC scrapping free licences for over 75s

[RingoMcCartney]

There does seem to be a lot of dislike for anyone who is elderly or well off.

And you can find a lot that fit that description,


















at the BBC....

[TheFamilyCat]

You just do not read do you. Once again.

Like I said, you can argue the toss if you like. Whether it's non payment of the subsequent increased fine or the TV licence itself, you can end up inside.

How can anybody reasonable claim that if someone can't afford to pay the initial £154 then they will somehow be able to find an additional £1000?

You argue the technicalities all you like, in support of a regressive tax on those least able to afford it. But the example here-

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 62137.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Proves I'm right.

Also, Labours Tom Watson said in Parliament within the last hour it was shameful that pensioners, some of whom the poorest in society, could "face imprisonment" for not paying the TV licence.

Hopefully it'll be on this evenings 6 o'clock news, so you eat your humble pie along with your tea.


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... icence-fee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Enforcement
The NLNP’s enforcement procedures have been redacted “because they contain information which could be useful to people attempting to evade the licence fee”. However, an unknown number of people will be visited by “the TV Licensing field operations team”. (The collection system is contracted out to Capita.) You can refuse them entry, but they may come back with a search warrant.

The BBC says, when contacted, about a sixth of NLN claimants are found to need a licence.

You can be prosecuted for watching TV without a licence, and fined up to £1,000 (up to £2,000 in Guernsey). Hundreds of thousands of people have been prosecuted – some of them living in poverty – and some have been jailed for not paying fines.


However, not only am I wrong, but the Belfast Telegraph, Tom Watson and the Guardian are also less informed than the message boards legal expert , The Family Cat!

Imagine the court room.

Client - "are you sure I won't be sent down? I didn't have the hundred and odd quid for the licence itself. I'm upto my neck on the credit card, and the land lord wants another 75 quid for the rent. There's no way I can magic a grand from nowhere"

Family Cat, legal representative- "Don't fret, take no notice of that rumour monger, Ringo. You won't be going anywhere"

Judge - "Your solicitor is quite correct. You won't be going anywhere. For non-payment of TV licence and associated fines, For the next 28 days you'll be kept at her majesty's pleasure. Send him down"

Family Cat - "Erm."..............

I’m so glad you went to so much time and effort to prove yourself wrong again.

You’ve even said it yourself in your wonderful courtroom drama: “non-payment of associated fines” and your extract from the BBC “and some have been jailed for non-payment of fines.

If the fine is paid, you don’t go to prison. Simple as that.

Now, I wonder how you’d react if somebody said you were “arguing the toss” when they had been proven wrong?

[RingoMcCartney]

I’m so glad you went to so much time and effort to prove yourself wrong again.

You’ve even said it yourself in your wonderful courtroom drama: “non-payment of associated fines” and your extract from the BBC “and some have been jailed for non-payment of fines.

If the fine is paid, you don’t go to prison. Simple as that.

Now, I wonder how you’d react if somebody said you were “arguing the toss” when they had been proven wrong?

I knew when I mentioned imprisonment somebody like you would chirp up.

Thats why when Tall Paul responded the very first thing I said was-

If you want to argue the toss about whether it's the subsequent fine you're jailed for or the direct non payment of the licence, that's upto you. However, the long and short of it is, if you don't pay the regressive , unfair poll tax, you can wind up getting sent down.

Now you say-

If the fine is paid, you don’t go to prison. Simple as that.

1, why has there been a fine imposed that needs paying?

2, if it's not paid, what can happen?

[Devils_Advocate]

I’m so glad you went to so much time and effort to prove yourself wrong again.

You’ve even said it yourself in your wonderful courtroom drama: “non-payment of associated fines” and your extract from the BBC “and some have been jailed for non-payment of fines.

If the fine is paid, you don’t go to prison. Simple as that.

Now, I wonder how you’d react if somebody said you were “arguing the toss” when they had been proven wrong?

Hoisted by your own petard Ringo

[evensteadiereddie]

Again. And it's not even Friday.

[TheFamilyCat]

I knew when I mentioned imprisonment somebody like you would chirp up.

Thats why when Tall Paul responded the very first thing I said was-

If you want to argue the toss about whether it's the subsequent fine you're jailed for or the direct non payment of the licence, that's upto you. However, the long and short of it is, if you don't pay the regressive , unfair poll tax, you can wind up getting sent down.

Now you say-




1, why has there been a fine imposed that needs paying?

2, if it's not paid, what can happen?

That is what I am saying because they is the fact.

To answer your questions:

1. The fine was for not having a license.

2. If the fine isn’t going to prison

Can I ask two questions of my own:

1. Does the person go to prison if the fine is paid?

2. What is the imprisonable offence (multiple choice to help you out and the answer to question 1 should help):
a) not having a TV license
b) not paying the fine?

[evensteadiereddie]

Well, both Elizabeth and Ringsting are online so an answer should inevitably be on its way.

[dsr]

So the fact is:

1. If you refuse to pay the licence or any costs related to the licence, you will go to jail.
2. Although this is tantamount to going to jail for not paying the licence, technically it is not - it's jail for not paying the fine.

All the rest is just blithering and can be dispensed with. Points claimed for winning an internet argument on a technicality, aren't worth anything.

[evensteadiereddie]

And you can find a lot that fit that description,


















at the BBC....

You have the figures to prove that, I assume ?

[conyoviejo]

Is that right?

I'm well aware that my retirement age went up a few years back and they had a cut off age/year of birth for it too, so people had plenty of notice

Are you telling me people are reaching what they thought was their retirement age and not knowing it's been moved?

Yes,many were not informed officially of the fact ..

Have a read of this link and visit WASPI on Facebook

https://www.waspi.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nil_desperandum]

Labour MP's didnt finance this scheme out of their own pockets.

That's not really a serious point though is it.
When did MPs ever pay for things out of their own pockets.?
The point is that free licenses came out of Treasury funds (effectively through general taxation), but the Conservatives passed this huge bill on to the BBC itself in 2015.
There are many arguments that you can have about whether all over 75s should get a free license, but the bottom line is that if this massive hole in the BBCs finances can't be p!ugged then there will have to be massive cuts in its services and jobs.
Putting a few celebs like Lineker and Winckelmann onto the minimum wage will have virtually no impact on the deficit.

[RingoMcCartney]

That is what I am saying because they is the fact.

To answer your questions:

1. The fine was for not having a license.

2. If the fine isn’t going to prison

Can I ask two questions of my own:

1. Does the person go to prison if the fine is paid?

2. What is the imprisonable offence (multiple choice to help you out and the answer to question 1 should help):
a) not having a TV license
b) not paying the fine?

1, No ( totally irrelevant)

2 b, not paying the fine.

And as I've now said repeatedly , but you clearly want to ignore that fact. Like I said, you can argue the toss if you like. Whether it's non payment of the subsequent increased fine or the TV licence itself, you can end up inside.

How can anybody reasonable claim that if someone can't afford to pay the initial £154 then they will somehow be able to find an additional £1000.


And can be seen from this quote from your good self

To answer your questions:

1. The fine was for not having a license.

2. If the fine isn’t going to prison

Promise me you won't try and carve a career out in the legal profession!

The Belfast Telegraph, Tom Watson and the Guardian certainly wouldn't hire you!.

[dsr]

That's not really a serious point though is it.
When did MPs ever pay for things out of their own pockets.?
The point is that free licenses came out of Treasury funds (effectively through general taxation), but the Conservatives passed this huge bill on to the BBC itself in 2015.
There are many arguments that you can have about whether all over 75s should get a free license, but the bottom line is that if this massive hole in the BBCs finances can't be p!ugged then there will have to be massive cuts in its services and jobs.
Putting a few celebs like Lineker and Winckelmann onto the minimum wage will have virtually no impact on the deficit.

They don't even pay for their own licences out of their own pockets; they're on expenses. So they aren't going to pay for ours!

[RingoMcCartney]

You have the figures to prove that, I assume ?

Yes. "Elderly or well off" .


Gary Lineker - £1,750,000-£1,759,999

Match of the Day, Sports Personality of the Year

2016-17: £1,750,000-£1,799,999

Chris Evans - £1,660,000-£1,669,999

Radio 2 breakfast show. His drop this year is down to no longer presenting Top Gear.

2016-17 pay: £2,200,000-£2,249,999

Graham Norton - £600,000-£609,999

BBC Radio 2 Saturday show and BBC TV fee for a range of programmes

2016-17: £850,000-£899,999.

Steve Wright - £550,000-£559,999

Radio 2 afternoon show

2016-17: £500,000-£549,999

Huw Edwards - £520,000-£529,999

BBC News and elections and news specials. The BBC has previously reported he's taken a pay cut.

2016-17: £550,000-£599,999

Jeremy Vine - £440,000-£449,999

Radio 2 & Eggheads. Points of View is made by BBC Studios. The BBC has previously said he's also taken a pay cut.

2016-17: £700,000-£749,999

Nicky Campbell - £410,000-£419,999

5 live Breakfast and Your Call. The BBC has previously said he's taken a pay cut.

2016-17: £400,000-£449,999

Alan Shearer - £410,000-£419,999

Match of the Day

2016-17: £400,000-£449,999


2016-17: £350,000-£399,999

John Humphrys - £400,000-£409,999

Radio 4 Today programme. Mastermind is made by BBC Studios, accounting for some of Humphrys' drop. The BBC has previously said he's also taken a pay cut.

2016-17: £600,000-£649,999

Andrew Marr - £400,000-£409,999

The Andrew Marr Show, Start the Week, documentaries

2016-17: £400,000-£449,999

Stephen Nolan - £400,000-£409,999

5 live, Radio Ulster and Nolan Live show

2016-17: £400,000-£449,999

Claudia Winkleman - £370,000-£379,999

BBC Radio 2 and BBC TV fee for a range of programmes. Strictly Come Dancing is made by BBC Studios.

2016-17: £450,000-£499,999.

Simon Mayo - £340,000-£349,999

Radio 2 & 5 live

2016-17: £350,000-£399,999

Vanessa Feltz - £330,000-£339,999

Radio 2 & Radio London

2016-17: £350,000-£399,999

Eddie Mair - £330,000-£339,999

Radio 4 PM programme

2016-17: £300,000-£349,999

Ken Bruce - £300,000-£309,999

Radio 2 morning show

2016-17: £250,000-£299,999

George Alagiah - £290,000-£299,999

BBC News

2016-17: £250,000-£299,999

[nil_desperandum]

[quote="Spike]

Taking the free TV LIcence of every D-Day veteran stinks![/quote]
Except no one has proposed that.

[taio]

Personally think the government should stop universal/blanket benefits to pensioners like winter fuel payments and free bus passes. The saving can then contribute towards the much needed additional funding into and reform of social care.

[evensteadiereddie]

And your list is the entire payroll of the whole of the BBC, Ringsting ?
Or perhaps just a few individuals and their programmes that you happen to dislike ?

[nil_desperandum]

Not going to copy and paste the whole of "Ringos List" and tbh I would agree that they are overpaid, but it really doesn't address the main issue.
At a rough scan and calculation, if you sacked all of them and didn't replace them it appears to me that it would save about 20 million.
The problem is that by withdrawing govt funding the BBC has to find 745 million

[Damo]

That's not really a serious point though is it.
When did MPs ever pay for things out of their own pockets.?
The point is that free licenses came out of Treasury funds (effectively through general taxation), but the Conservatives passed this huge bill on to the BBC itself in 2015.
There are many arguments that you can have about whether all over 75s should get a free license, but the bottom line is that if this massive hole in the BBCs finances can't be p!ugged then there will have to be massive cuts in its services and jobs.
Putting a few celebs like Lineker and Winckelmann onto the minimum wage will have virtually no impact on the deficit.

And my point is, why should the general public pay twice?
Most people pay the licence fee, then fund it for people who can afford to pay for it themselves.
The post I quoted insinuated that labour were the good guys for passing on the financial burden to the taxpayer, and it's the Tories fault because they feel the tax payer shouldn't have to fund it.
The BBC in his eyes are innocent, when in fact, they could cut some costs themselves and perhaps pass on the saving to the people he considers to be the ones affected by this

[evensteadiereddie]

I trust Saint Gary will be giving up half of his £1.75 million BBC salary to buy licences for c. 6,000 needy/lonely over 75s. He's that sort of guy- isn't he?

I doubt it. Maybe if you do the same, he might be persuaded.
Let us know how you get on.

[TheFamilyCat]

1, No ( totally irrelevant)

This is my favourite bit because what Ringo has dismissed as “totally irrelevant” is probably the most relevant aspect.

Whether it's non payment of the subsequent increased fine or the TV licence itself, you can end up inside

Oh, and this bit because you can only end up inside for one of them so there’s no “whether” about it.

[LeadBelly]

I doubt it. Maybe if you do the same, he might be persuaded.
Let us know how you get on.

Unfortunately I dont get £1.75 million from the BBC so I cant even consider it.

[kentonclaret]

It is too simplistic just to argue "why should retired judges, lawyers, bankers and doctors receive free TV licences when younger generations are struggling financially"? That would be fine if the proposed scrapping of free TV licences only impacted upon very wealthy people who worked in those or similarly highly paid professions. But it doesn't. There are many other pensioners on the margins, who are just about managing, who would have greatly benefitted from not having to pay the licence fee past the age of 75.

[Stayingup]

I'd be surprised If there hasn't been pressure from the Government in the back rooms. The govt pays for the over 75s licence fees so the BBC has just saved the government upward of £655 million a year.

By making it a BBC issue they avoid p1ssing off their base and keep a huge chunk of change.

Actually your not right. The government passed on the responsibility for this cost to the BBC after the 2008 recession.

[nil_desperandum]

Actually your not right. The government passed on the responsibility for this cost to the BBC after the 2008 recession.

Source?

[Stayingup]

Personally think the government should stop universal/blanket benefits to pensioners like winter fuel payments and free bus passes. The saving can then contribute towards the much needed additional funding into and reform of social care.

Very good so you'll miss out. Sweet.

[Stayingup]

Tories getting the BBC to do their dirty work for them.

No
The BBC are doing it.

[Stayingup]

[quote="conyoviejo"]The point I'm trying to make DSR,Is not the retirement age,but the tine scale given,when these women had planned to finish at 60 then not given any notice ,most only finding out when they applied for their pension statement..totally unfair and morally wrong.. They should have been sent at least a proper notice telling them it was going to happeun instead of sneakily bringing it in ..[/quote

Just out of interest do you know how many other
countries in the EU have increased the age for retirement as we have. In addition do you know the retirement ages in France and Greece for example?

[nil_desperandum]

Actually your not right. The government passed on the responsibility for this cost to the BBC after the 2008 recession.

Still no source of evidence to support your claim?
Just to clear it up, Labour introduced it in 2000 and the Conservatives announced in 2015 that the funding. Would be terminated in June 2020.
But you obviously have info that contradicts this.

[aggi]

Source?

Here you go https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33414693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Technically after the 2008 recession)

[nil_desperandum]

The average in the EU is about 65.
With regards to Greece it's 67, and in France it varies between 62 and 67 depending on your age, but basically it will be 67 across the board by 2023.
Why do you ask?

[Long Time Lurker]

I blame the TV manufacturers for not spotting an opportunity.

At the moment if your TV or other equipment is capable of receiving BBC you have to buy a license fee.

They could easily sell TV's that can't be tuned into the BBC channels. That way when the TV detector people knock on a door the person can simply point to their retricted viewing TV and enjoy all of the other channels without any hassle, while saving £150 a year.

The TV companies can sell more of their products by highlighting the inbuilt saving of £150 a year.

[nil_desperandum]

Here you go https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33414693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Technically after the 2008 recession)

Eh?
Am I missing something?
You've linked a 2015 article with no reference to 2008 or the recession

[taio]

Very good so you'll miss out. Sweet.

Yes I'd be happy to miss out on such benefits as I expect to be able to pay for them myself when I reach pension age in many, many years.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yes,many were not informed officially of the fact ..

Have a read of this link and visit WASPI on Facebook

https://www.waspi.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not on Facebook.

I've never been officially informed I don't think, I just happen to know from all of the advertising I saw and heard in various media forms that the retirement age for my generation has gone up.

[Stayingup]

[quote="claretonthecoast1882"]There does seem to be a lot of dislike for anyone who is elderly or well off.[/quote

Probably because most voted for Brexit!!!]

[Stayingup]

The average in the EU is about 65.
With regards to Greece it's 67, and in France it varies between 62 and 67 depending on your age, but basically it will be 67 across the board by 2023.
Why do you ask?

What I'm really pointing out and which you haven't responded to is do you know of any other EU country that has increased retirement or pension age? This of course was never mentioned in the run-up to the EU referendum. Funny thst.

In France ir depends who rhe person is working for. If its for example SNCF it can be a lower age and I have to check Greece.

[nil_desperandum]

Just to add a little more context to the debate:
I think there are only 4 EU countries that don't have a licence fee, and in real terms we're one of the cheapest.
(What I mean by that is that in a number of countries it's over 300 Euros, and where it's less (eg. Poland 54 Euros), that's a lot relative to what the average worker earns
From what I've been able to discover no other country exempts the elderly from paying - but I may be wrong about that)

[Stayingup]

Yes I'd be happy to miss out on such benefits as I expect to be able to pay for them myself when I reach pension age in many, many years.

Many many years. You may have to miss out and pay out on much much more then. Good luck on that.

[Stayingup]

Just to add a little more context to the debate:
I think there are only 4 EU countries that don't have a licence fee, and in real terms we're one of the cheapest.
(What I mean by that is that in a number of countries it's over 300 Euros, and where it's less (eg. Poland 54 Euros), that's a lot relative to what the average worker earns
From what I've been able to discover no other country exempts the elderly from paying - but I may be wrong about that)

Its certainly not 300 Euros in France or Spain. I know having had places in both countries and still have in one. So where is it 300 Euros? Interesting as Sweden Denmark etc are not in the Eurozone so it cant be them

[aggi]

Eh?
Am I missing something?
You've linked a 2015 article with no reference to 2008 or the recession

2015 is after 2008.

[RingoMcCartney]

And your list is the entire payroll of the whole of the BBC, Ringsting ?
Or perhaps just a few individuals and their programmes that you happen to dislike ?

The post I replied to was

There does seem to be a lot of dislike for anyone who is elderly or well off.

I replied - And you can find a lot that fit that description, at the BBC....

You popped up

You have the figures to prove that, I assume ?

I provided figures that "prove that" there are a lot of people who are either "elderly or well off" at the BBC. Which is what I said.

Some of the people on that list are past State retirement age. The lowest paid on that list is paid approximately 7 times the average wage in the UK. Consequently, all are either "elderly or well off", some are both.

You asked for proof. I provided it.

[nil_desperandum]

What I'm really pointing out and which you haven't responded to is do you know of any other EU country that has increased retirement or pension age? This of course was never mentioned in the run-up to the EU referendum. Funny thst.

In France ir depends who rhe person is working for. If its for example SNCF it can be a lower age and I have to check Greece.

I think you're confusing state pension age with occupational pensions. It's virtually impossible to compare occupational pensions, because even within our own country there's quite a wide range.
With regards to state pensions, it's pretty easy to google, and basically with increased life expectancy they're all moving upwards like us and the vast majority are 65 or above.Examples: Netherlands 68, France and Italy 67, Germany 66, Norway 67 etc.

[jrgbfc]

No
The BBC are doing it.

Under pressure from the Tories. The Tories hate the BBC because they don't pander to them like the Murdoch owned press. It also goes against every natural instinct they have to provide a good service and not attempt to rip people off and make money out of it.

[RingoMcCartney]

This is my favourite bit because what Ringo has dismissed as “totally irrelevant” is probably the most relevant aspect.



Oh, and this bit because you can only end up inside for one of them so there’s no “whether” about it.

And what you are so so desperate to want to try and ignore, the fact that should they not be able to pay the fine, then they can be jailed!

"“We have to ask whether, after 20 years of free licences, the BBC can justify taking a frail, housebound, elderly pensioner to court for not possessing a TV licence that for years she has had for free, and then not only having the power to ask for a fine of £1,000 – the standard penalty – with legal costs on top, but also to have the power if she doesn’t pay or can’t pay, to ask the courts to send her to prison.” Gordon Brown, 10th June 2019

https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/ente ... --1639325/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, what's the ultimate sanction that somebody can face in the criminal process should they not be able to pay the TV licence?

I've posted the quote from Gordon Brown, the man that introduce the scheme, which includes a rather large clue that should help you remove the blinkers and come up with the correct answer.

[elwaclaret]

I haven’t watched BBC broadcasts for several years. So much so I forgot to renew my license. It was three weeks later a knock on the door and a 190 fine followed, despite me admitting the oversight and buying a license then and there....

You don’t need a license... hahahah... ok. Good luck with that. Fines up to over £1k when they do get around to you.

[nil_desperandum]

Its certainly not 300 Euros in France or Spain. I know having had places in both countries and still have in one. So where is it 300 Euros? Interesting as Sweden Denmark etc are not in the Eurozone so it cant be them

Why do they have to be in the Eurozone??
I referred to EU countries, and by inference (for comparison) to European / EEC countries in general
Anyway, to save you having to do a bit of research , (all figures for. 2016 and converted to Euros for comparative purposes):
Switzerland 439
Norway 318
Denmark 332
Austria 284
Germany 210
Ireland 160
France 137 (most are index linked).
You correctly state you don't need one in Spain or Portugal, but in Europe they are the exception rather than the rule.

[TheFamilyCat]

And what you are so so desperate to want to try and ignore, the fact that should they not be able to pay the fine, then they can be jailed!

"“We have to ask whether, after 20 years of free licences, the BBC can justify taking a frail, housebound, elderly pensioner to court for not possessing a TV licence that for years she has had for free, and then not only having the power to ask for a fine of £1,000 – the standard penalty – with legal costs on top, but also to have the power if she doesn’t pay or can’t pay, to ask the courts to send her to prison.” Gordon Brown, 10th June 2019

https://www.irishnews.com/magazine/ente ... --1639325/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, what's the ultimate sanction that somebody can face in the criminal process should they not be able to pay the TV licence?

I've posted the quote from Gordon Brown, the man that introduce the scheme, which includes a rather large clue that should help you remove the blinkers and come up with the correct answer.

How have I ignored that non-payment of the fine can result in prison? I have referenced it every post I have made which have been made to point out the FACT (see, I can do that too) that it is non-payment of the fine that is the imprisonable offence rather than not having a tv license.

And your quote from Gordon Brown provides more evidence that the imprisonable offence is to not pay the fine.

The punishment for not having a license is a fine.

[RingoMcCartney]

And your quote from Gordon Brown provides more evidence that the imprisonable offence is to not pay the fine.

The punishment for not having a license is a fine.

Thats only part of the process.

You didn't spot the clue Gordon Brown have you! Take the blinkers off !!

I asked.

What's the ultimate sanction that somebody can face in the criminal process should they not be able to pay the TV licence?

[aggi]

Thats only part of the process.

You didn't spot the clue Gordon Brown have you! Take the blinkers off !!

I asked.

What's the ultimate sanction that somebody can face in the criminal process should they not be able to pay the TV licence?

A fine.

What do I win?