Greenmile wrote:What I’m trying to ask (and you’re avoiding answering) is what you think should then happen to you? After all, the person you murdered would also be someone’s child (and grandchild). Would you expect their parents to murder you without an ounce of regret or thoughts for the consequences?

I see you’ve now changed your position from “If anyone and I don’t care who it was, did that...” to “if, an adult multiple child murderer did that...”, so I seem to have given you some food for thought, at least. Keep this up, and we may turn you into someone who isn’t a potential murderer at all.

We can use Venables and Thompson as an example here.

They came out of prison as young adults after being locked up for just 8 years, so if someone was to murder one of them in revenge they'd be murdering an adult, not a child.

I think that resolves your issue with someone murdering a child who's a child killer, when they've stated they'd do it when they were released from prison.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:We can use Venables and Thompson as an example here.

They came out of prison as young adults after being locked up for just 8 years, so if someone was to murder one of them in revenge they'd be murdering an adult, not a child.

I think that resolves your issue with someone murdering a child who's a child killer, when they've stated they'd do it when they were released from prison.

Even adults have parents and grandparents though. As Martin referred to anyone who murdered his children or grandchildren, I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that his children are adults.

It’s a quirk of the English language that the word “child” can denote someone’s age but also their relationship to someone else.

Greenmile wrote:What I’m trying to ask (and you’re avoiding answering) is what you think should then happen to you? After all, the person you murdered would also be someone’s child (and grandchild). Would you expect their parents to murder you without an ounce of regret or thoughts for the consequences?

I see you’ve now changed your position from “If anyone and I don’t care who it was, did that...” to “if, an adult multiple child murderer did that...”, so I seem to have given you some food for thought, at least. Keep this up, and we may turn you into someone who isn’t a potential murderer at all.

No you haven’t given me food for thought. The post was about an adult who was a multiple child killer. You turned it into a child who kills. As I said and keep saying, if HE had done that to my children or grandchildren then it is simple, I would wipe them out, no question, no hesitation, no remorse and to hell with the repercussions. There that has answered all your questions, it has in my mind anyway. Now you can turn it into I would be a murderer, a killer of killers or however you want to turn it into. It is what I would do, call it revenge call it what you will, I don’t care. I am stating facts. I don’t get what you don’t accept what I say. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t matter to me, that is your opinion, my opinion is clear to me and should be to you.

Martinc265 wrote:No you haven’t given me food for thought. The post was about an adult who was a multiple child killer. You turned it into a child who kills. As I said and keep saying, if HE had done that to my children or grandchildren then it is simple, I would wipe them out, no question, no hesitation, no remorse and to hell with the repercussions. There that has answered all your questions, it has in my mind anyway. Now you can turn it into I would be a murderer, a killer of killers or however you want to turn it into. It is what I would do, call it revenge call it what you will, I don’t care. I am stating facts. I don’t get what you don’t accept what I say. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t matter to me, that is your opinion, my opinion is clear to me and should be to you.

You haven’t answered my question though. I’ll try again...

Would you then expect the parents of the person you murdered to murder you? If not, why not?

Greenmile wrote:Even adults have parents and grandparents though. As Martin referred to anyone who murdered his children or grandchildren, I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that his children are adults.

It’s a quirk of the English language that the word “child” can denote someone’s age but also their relationship to someone else.

If my kids murdered someone then they'd have to face the consequences and I'd have to take a long hard look at myself to see why they ended up commuting such a heinous crime.
Regardless of who's kid they are, they're still a murderer.

I'm not really sure what angle you're taking in all this tbh

Greenmile wrote:You haven’t answered my question though. I’ll try again...

Would you then expect the parents of the person you murdered to murder you? If not, why not?

If my kids murdered anyone, child or not, I wouldn't seek revenge on someone if they got retribution against my kid.

Lord Rothbury wrote:Hang em all let God sort em out.

Sharia law is not the answer, we already have our own laws.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If my kids murdered anyone, child or not, I wouldn't seek revenge on someone if they got retribution against my kid.

That’s a reasonable position to take. A bit more nuanced than “If anyone and I don’t care who it was, did that to any child of mine (I would murder them)”.

See, you would care who it was. If they had good reason (in your mind) to murder your kid, you wouldn’t seek revenge, and the cycle of violence would end.

That was an accidental 'like'

Greenmile wrote:You haven’t answered my question though. I’ll try again...

Would you then expect the parents of the person you murdered to murder you? If not, why not?

This is the last time , I have said and keep saying, sod the consequences, sod the repercussions. I don’t care. I am not interested.

You are bloody hard work, mainly because you read between the lines and make up your own answers as well missing the bleeding obvious.

To repeat, sod the consequences sod the repercussions as I wouldn’t care, as I would have got rid of the swine that killed and in this case tortured those kids, I believe. Now if these were your kids and as you say you would meekly accept it and turn the other cheek then you are a better man than me, because if they were my kids or grandkids then I would hurt the swine so much before finishing him off.
Also before you ask, my kids are adults and I have grandchildren, so it would be grandchildren in this scenario, you like scenarios, don’t you. Now give it a rest eh?

Martinc265 wrote:This is the last time , I have said and keep saying, sod the consequences, sod the repercussions. I don’t care. I am not interested.

You are bloody hard work, mainly because you read between the lines and make up your own answers as well missing the bleeding obvious.

To repeat, sod the consequences sod the repercussions as I wouldn’t care, as I would have got rid of the swine that killed and in this case tortured those kids, I believe. Now if these were your kids and as you say you would meekly accept it and turn the other cheek then you are a better man than me, because if they were my kids or grandkids then I would hurt the swine so much before finishing him off.
Also before you ask, my kids are adults and I have grandchildren, so it would be grandchildren in this scenario, you like scenarios, don’t you. Now give it a rest eh?

You would expect their parents to kill you then.

And yes, it appears I am a better man than you, but we knew that anyway, didn’t we. I’m not a potential murderer for starters.

Martinc265 wrote:No you haven’t given me food for thought. The post was about an adult who was a multiple child killer. You turned it into a child who kills. As I said and keep saying, if HE had done that to my children or grandchildren then it is simple, I would wipe them out, no question, no hesitation, no remorse and to hell with the repercussions. There that has answered all your questions, it has in my mind anyway. Now you can turn it into I would be a murderer, a killer of killers or however you want to turn it into. It is what I would do, call it revenge call it what you will, I don’t care. I am stating facts. I don’t get what you don’t accept what I say. Just because you wouldn’t doesn’t matter to me, that is your opinion, my opinion is clear to me and should be to you.

To hell with the repercussions? I’m guessing that if you ended up behind bars for life you’d ruin a lot of other people’s lives - your children and grandchildren for example. Considering you are not in a ‘heat of the moment situation’ and are able to think rationally this seems like a selfish attitude to take in the name of revenge.

Greenmile wrote:You would expect their parents to kill you then.

And yes, it appears I am a better man than you, but we knew that anyway, didn’t we. I’m not a potential murderer for starters.

That’s a matter of opinion mate and yours doesn’t matter to me

Martinc265 wrote:That’s a matter of opinion mate and yours doesn’t matter to me

You’re worse than Ringo at “retiring” from a thread.

[quote="Rileybobs"]To hell with the repercussions? I’m guessing that if you ended up behind bars for life you’d ruin a lot of other people’s lives - your children and grandchildren for example. Considering you are not in a ‘heat of the moment situation’ and are able to think rationally this seems like a selfish attitude to take in the name of revenge.[/quote

It couldn’t be in a heat of the moment action could it, as I would have to wait until they were released from prison, which by that time I would be long gone myself.

Now where is Greenmile with another scenario? I am sure he could conjure up another one of his magical scenarios.

Greenmile wrote:What I’m trying to ask (and you’re avoiding answering) is what you think should then happen to you? After all, the person you murdered would also be someone’s child (and grandchild). Would you expect their parents to murder you without an ounce of regret or thoughts for the consequences?

I see you’ve now changed your position from “If anyone and I don’t care who it was, did that...” to “if, an adult multiple child murderer did that...”, so I seem to have given you some food for thought, at least. Keep this up, and we may turn you into someone who isn’t a potential murderer at all.

It would seem to be self-evident that the murder of an innocent child would carry less of a penalty than the murder (almost certainly commuted to manslaughter while the balance of mind was disturbed) of someone who kills and tortures children. Wouldn't it?

Greenmile wrote:You’re worse than Ringo at “retiring” from a thread.

That’s your fault, you won’t accept an opinion and keep dreaming up other arguments
Easier to agree to disagree, then I can retire

dsr wrote:It would seem to be self-evident that the murder of an innocent child would carry less of a penalty than the murder (almost certainly commuted to manslaughter while the balance of mind was disturbed) of someone who kills and tortures children. Wouldn't it?

Maybe. That doesn’t seem a very Christian attitude to hold, though. All lives are sacred, aren’t they?

Martinc265 wrote:That’s your fault, you won’t accept an opinion and keep dreaming up other arguments
Easier to agree to disagree, then I can retire

No it isn’t

Greenmile wrote:Maybe. That doesn’t seem a very Christian attitude to hold, though. All lives are sacred, aren’t they?

In the eyes of God, maybe. Though Jesus did say "If any harms one of these my little ones, it would have been better for that man if he had had a millstone tied round his neck and been thrown into the sea." Jesus was unequivocally opposed to child murder.

All lives, in human terms, are not equally sacred. If you come across Ian Brady murdering another little child, and you have the option of either killing Brady or letting him kill the child, would you reckon that it made no difference what you did because either way would result in one death and all lives are sacred? no, of course not. (Well, I certainly hope not.) And neither would I.

dsr wrote:In the eyes of God, maybe. Though Jesus did say "If any harms one of these my little ones, it would have been better for that man if he had had a millstone tied round his neck and been thrown into the sea." Jesus was unequivocally opposed to child murder.

All lives, in human terms, are not equally sacred. If you come across Ian Brady murdering another little child, and you have the option of either killing Brady or letting him kill the child, would you reckon that it made no difference what you did because either way would result in one death and all lives are sacred? no, of course not. (Well, I certainly hope not.) And neither would I.

Was Jesus not unequivocally opposed to all murder, or did he think the 10 commandments were outdated?

Your second paragraph is interesting. I’d kill Brady in that situation, I think. Here’s one for you - a train is out of control and hurtling towards a child who is stuck on the tracks. You can flick a switch to change the route of the train, but that would result in it hitting a wall which would definitely kill the driver and at least 10 other adults in the front carriage. Do you flick the switch? (my answer is probably not)

Now imagine the train is heading for a wall and flicking the switch would make it hit the child instead. Would you do it this time (my answer is probably not again, and I’m really not sure why - something to do with my agency leading to the deaths. If I don’t touch the switch in either scenario then the outcome seems like it’s less my fault - yet that doesn’t apply to your Brady situation for some reason)

I’m probably the only person who finds this sort of thought experiment interesting though, so feel free to call me boring.

Tall Paul wrote:That was an accidental 'like'

If you click the like button again it removes it I think.

Greenmile wrote:That’s a reasonable position to take. A bit more nuanced than “If anyone and I don’t care who it was, did that to any child of mine (I would murder them)”.

See, you would care who it was. If they had good reason (in your mind) to murder your kid, you wouldn’t seek revenge, and the cycle of violence would end.

It's not so much about caring, or ending a cycle of violence.
If one of my kids sets out to murder someone then they can deal with the consequences quite simply.

There's only so much I'd defend my kids over, murder isn't one of those things on the list.

Greenmile wrote:Was Jesus not unequivocally opposed to all murder, or did he think the 10 commandments were outdated?

Your second paragraph is interesting. I’d kill Brady in that situation, I think. Here’s one for you - a train is out of control and hurtling towards a child who is stuck on the tracks. You can flick a switch to change the route of the train, but that would result in it hitting a wall which would definitely kill the driver and at least 10 other adults in the front carriage. Do you flick the switch? (my answer is probably not)

Now imagine the train is heading for a wall and flicking the switch would make it hit the child instead. Would you do it this time (my answer is probably not again, and I’m really not sure why - something to do with my agency leading to the deaths. If I don’t touch the switch in either scenario then the outcome seems like it’s less my fault - yet that doesn’t apply to your Brady situation for some reason)

I’m probably the only person who finds this sort of thought experiment interesting though, so feel free to call me boring.

He did think the 10 commandments outdated, actually. He reduced them to 2.

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

(And when questioned about number 2, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan.)

The train? I would probably do what you would do. Certainly in number one let the child die rather than flick the switch; but in number two, possibly flick the switch to kill the child rather than let the train hit the wall. It complicates the job with me being the driver, rather than an absentee signalman.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:If you click the like button again it removes it I think.

Has he tried turning it off and back on again

Greenmile wrote:You would expect their parents to kill you then.

And yes, it appears I am a better man than you, but we knew that anyway, didn’t we. I’m not a potential murderer for starters.

You are not. You have a different viewpoint and can’t accept another. Some people would take revenge and wipe murderers of innocent people out regardless of consequence and you wouldn’t. Give it a rest.

Blackrod wrote:You are not. You have a different viewpoint and can’t accept another. Some people would take revenge and wipe murderers of innocent people out regardless of consequence and you wouldn’t. Give it a rest.

Wipe them out how?

dsr wrote:He did think the 10 commandments outdated, actually. He reduced them to 2.

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

I think you omitted part of that teaching, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

So not quite a "tear up the law and just have these Disney-esque sentiments."

Blackrod wrote:...Give it a rest.

What’s the point of saying this in a reply to one of my (or anyone’s) posts? Martinc said the same thing earlier. Surely you know it’s going to make me more likely to reply - you’re basically trying to order me to let you have the last word.

Here’s a tip - if you get sick of reading what I’m saying, don’t read or engage with my posts. I do it with about 90% of what Ringo posts so I can vouch for the method. It works better than just telling someone to shut up, anyway.

Greenmile wrote:You would expect their parents to kill you then.

And yes, it appears I am a better man than you, but we knew that anyway, didn’t we. I’m not a potential murderer for starters.

Until you're put into the position where you could kill someone you'll never be able to say you're not a potential murderer.

The bloke who killed that gypo burgler probably never thought he'd be a killer, but that's what he did.
Yes it was self defence etc, but he did it all the same.

Many of us would also do it, mainly to protect loved ones.

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Until you're put into the position where you could kill someone you'll never be able to say you're not a potential murderer.

The bloke who killed that gypo burgler probably never thought he'd be a killer, but that's what he did.
Yes it was self defence etc, but he did it all the same.

Many of us would also do it, mainly to protect loved ones.

Maybe you’re right. Maybe not. But Martinc hasn’t been put in that position yet has still decided, calm-headedly, that he would definitely murder someone in a certain set of circumstances. I’m pretty sure I definitely wouldn’t. That’s because I’m a better person than he is.

If it’s a your life of mine (or that of a loved one) scenario, then that’s a different kettle of fish, but we’re talking about murdering purely to satisfy some feeling of vengeance - I think that’s incredibly selfish.

Greenmile wrote:Maybe you’re right. Maybe not. But Martinc hasn’t been put in that position yet has still decided, calm-headedly, that he would definitely murder someone in a certain set of circumstances. I’m pretty sure I definitely wouldn’t. That’s because I’m a better person than he is.

If it’s a your life of mine (or that of a loved one) scenario, then that’s a different kettle of fish, but we’re talking about murdering purely to satisfy some feeling of vengeance - I think that’s incredibly selfish.

Once again that’s your opinion, mine is that I am certainly a better person than you, that’s my opinion. Oh and before you go off on one again, I told you to give it a rest, not that I want to shut you up but to stop you making up scenarios . Apart from that you are entertaining if nothing else. However you have no idea what positions I have been put in during my life so don’t pretend to think you do.

Martinc265 wrote:.... you have no idea what positions I have been put in during my life so don’t pretend to think you do.

I haven’t, and I won’t. Our entire conversation has been based around hypothetical situations (hasn’t it?? You’ve not actually murdered someone to satisfy your lust for vengeance, have you??)

I’m glad you think I’m entertaining, though. Most folk around here (myself included, most of the time) think I’m boring.

Greenmile wrote:I haven’t, and I won’t. Our entire conversation has been based around hypothetical situations (hasn’t it?? You’ve not actually murdered someone to satisfy your lust for vengeance, have you??)

I’m glad you think I’m entertaining, though. Most folk around here (myself included, most of the time) think I’m boring.

My opinion is that he has.

Countdown to death row on itv now.

Imploding Turtle wrote:My opinion is that he has.

Thanks IT, however I would like your post if the like button worked for me, alas it doesn’t

Martinc265 wrote:Thanks IT, however I would like your post if the like button worked for me, alas it doesn’t

Did you murder it?

Greenmile wrote:Maybe you’re right. Maybe not. But Martinc hasn’t been put in that position yet has still decided, calm-headedly, that he would definitely murder someone in a certain set of circumstances. I’m pretty sure I definitely wouldn’t. That’s because I’m a better person than he is.

If it’s a your life of mine (or that of a loved one) scenario, then that’s a different kettle of fish, but we’re talking about murdering purely to satisfy some feeling of vengeance - I think that’s incredibly selfish.

You're talking about loved ones and appear unable to connect the dots to seeking vengeance for the death of an innocent loved one at the hands of someone else.

This whole you're a better person than him is amusing, you don't know each other but you're basing it on this forum, dick move.

Greenmile wrote:I haven’t, and I won’t. Our entire conversation has been based around hypothetical situations (hasn’t it?? You’ve not actually murdered someone to satisfy your lust for vengeance, have you??)

I’m glad you think I’m entertaining, though. Most folk around here (myself included, most of the time) think I’m boring.

No you do pose some good hypothetical questions, although you do go to an extreme. Alas I do not lust for vengeance, not now in my old age, alas there was a time. However, I stand by what I said IF it happened to one of my grandchildren, I am afraid I wouldn’t hesitate. I have an old saying I learnt from my old sarge , and I quote this often, “from a distance comes a sound that you will never hear”. It’s not for you by the way but people often look bewildered when I offer up that advice.
Goodnight all, it has been a pleasure

Imploding Turtle wrote:Did you murder it?

I probably have

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:You're talking about loved ones and appear unable to connect the dots to seeking vengeance for the death of an innocent loved one at the hands of someone else.

This whole you're a better person than him is amusing, you don't know each other but you're basing it on this forum, dick move.

It’s not that hard to understand...

Killing someone to prevent the death of a loved one - ok

Killing someone to avenge the death of a loved one - not ok. Very selfish, in fact.

As for me being a better person than Martinc, he suggested it first and I just agreed. I think we’re only saying “better” in the sense of “less likely to become a murderer”. I’m not claiming to be better than him at sculpture or interpretive dance, for example - sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Martinc265 wrote:No you do pose some good hypothetical questions, although you do go to an extreme. Alas I do not lust for vengeance, not now in my old age, alas there was a time. However, I stand by what I said IF it happened to one of my grandchildren, I am afraid I wouldn’t hesitate. I have an old saying I learnt from my old sarge , and I quote this often, “from a distance comes a sound that you will never hear”. It’s not for you by the way but people often look bewildered when I offer up that advice.
Goodnight all, it has been a pleasure

One of the points of hypotheticals is that you can take things to their (logical) extremes, so yes, that’s what I’ve done.

I’m glad you don’t lust for vengeance and hope that’s because you have nothing to avenge, but your next sentence suggests that if you did (have something to avenge) then you would (lust for vengeance).

I, too, am bewildered by your old sarge’s saying.

thatdberight wrote:I think you omitted part of that teaching, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

So not quite a "tear up the law and just have these Disney-esque sentiments."

True enough. But perhaps more relevantly (and embarrassingly), I missed out the bit about "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another. Just as I have love you, that you love one another."

Another example of pathetic sentencing ,pathetic home office and the criminals friend the human rights act.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/rochdale-groo ... 53753.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No, it isn't.
You might want to think it is but that's up to you.

evensteadiereddie wrote:No, it isn't.
You might want to think it is but that's up to you.

That's very kind of you.

Yes it’s pathetic. White flag wearing sandal wearers will always find excuses to try and defend such **** and such weak attempts at punishment.

Aye, so will normal people who are quite happy to let the rule of law and not the rule of the knuckle-dragging mob prevail.

The likes of evensteadiereddie much prefer defending the rights of murderers and paedophiles to live amongst us then promoting harsher sentences and the death penalty for such deviants.

bfcjg wrote:The likes of evensteadiereddie much prefer defending the rights of murderers and paedophiles to live amongst us then promoting harsher sentences and the death penalty for such deviants.

That's his prerogative....