Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

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Clarets4me
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Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Clarets4me » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:57 pm

Assuming Boris Johnson wins the Conservative Party leadership vote, he could easily sit down with Farage and agree a pact where confirmed Brexiteer Tory MP's would not be opposed by " Brexit Party " Candidates in a snap General Election, whereas the Conservatives would not put up a Candidate in selected Welsh/ Midlands/ Northern heavily Brexit Constituencies, say, 75 of them to allow the Brexit party a free run against Labour ..

Several seats in the North East spring to mind, but Burnley would be a prime case. It voted strongly ( 66% ) for Brexit, and the Lib-Dems/UKIP have been used for years as the anti-Labour option, by people who traditionally wouldn't vote Conservative as long as they still drew breath.

I'm not saying they'd win, but combining the Conservative/UKIP/Brexit Party votes in the recent EU Elections, gives you 46% of the vote in Burnley, higher still in Pendle, Bolton, Preston, Wigan, Hyndburn, Chorley & Rossendale all 50 - 60% .... Ribble Valley would keep Nigel Evans as a prominant Leave Candidate ...

Should the " Remain " vote then be split amongst Labour/Lib-Dems/Greens/Change UK etc. , then under our current First past the post system, it could be a landslide ...

Food for thought, although I'm fully aware it'd give some posters on here severe indigestion .....

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:07 am

I think if that ever happened then we'd see the same kind of pact agreed among Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, etc. Such an agreement would almost certainly have to include a commitment to reform our electoral system. And that coalition would have to win, otherwise it would be further proof to Scotland that independence is their only way out of constant Conservative rule against their will.

The conservatives will know this, and so will Boris, so even they might be hesitant on attempting to create a permanent right-wing government in this way. Because if they fail then they'll either lose the electoral system that keeps them in power, and if they succeed the Union will break up.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Clarets4me » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:31 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I think if that ever happened then we'd see the same kind of pact agreed among Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, etc. Such an agreement would almost certainly have to include a commitment to reform our electoral system. And that coalition would have to win, otherwise it would be further proof to Scotland that independence is their only way out of constant Conservative rule against their will.

The conservatives will know this, and so will Boris, so even they might be hesitant on attempting to create a permanent right-wing government in this way. Because if they fail then they'll either lose the electoral system that keeps them in power, and if they succeed the Union will break up.
It'd be interesting if they announced it 15 minutes before nominations closed for General Election Candidates, having spent virtually nothing beforehand, but kept a " warchest " of spending to promote the new alliance, for the next 4 weeks on TV/Social Media/Newpapers etc ..

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:34 am

Clarets4me wrote:It'd be interesting if they announced it 15 minutes before nominations closed for General Election Candidates, having spent virtually nothing beforehand, but kept a " warchest " of spending to promote the new alliance, for the next 4 weeks on TV/Social Media/Newpapers etc ..
That would be so anti-democratic that i think it would appeal to them.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by CombatClaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:44 am

Why would power/fame hungry Farage agree to that when every seat he's able to take from the Tory's make him a more potentially powerful king maker.
Conservative seats are an easy sell too as they're the ones who haven't delivered the unicorn.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by tarkys_ears » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:55 am

Shame there's no real Labour option. In reality, not a lot of people can disagree with their policies. The problem lies with them living in cloud cuckoo land of how they can ever implement or work them.

Shame there' no alternative but I'll be voting blue, for YOUR good and mine.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Inchy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:46 am

tarkys_ears wrote:Shame there's no real Labour option. In reality, not a lot of people can disagree with their policies. The problem lies with them living in cloud cuckoo land of how they can ever implement or work them.

Shame there' no alternative but I'll be voting blue, for YOUR good and mine.

Yes vote Tory for my good. Can’t wait to try out the local food bank
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Stockbrokerbelt » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:52 am

Cloud cuckoo land, I think making big companies & rich individuals pay their fair share of tax etc is pretty straight forward not to mention raising corporation tax slightly to fund the NHS a sensible idea. Where as we could all vote blue again just to see the NHS collapse, homeless & food-banks grow etc.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Burnley Ace » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:04 am

Stockbrokerbelt wrote:Cloud cuckoo land, I think making big companies & rich individuals pay their fair share of tax etc is pretty straight forward not to mention raising corporation tax slightly to fund the NHS a sensible idea. Where as we could all vote blue again just to see the NHS collapse, homeless & food-banks grow etc.
Whilst there needs to be a complete review of international tax arrangements, starting with being taxed where the income is generated, what’s a “fair share” for individuals? The NHS already gets £127 Billion, how much more should government give it?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by taio » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:10 am

Stockbrokerbelt wrote:Cloud cuckoo land, I think making big companies & rich individuals pay their fair share of tax etc is pretty straight forward not to mention raising corporation tax slightly to fund the NHS a sensible idea. Where as we could all vote blue again just to see the NHS collapse, homeless & food-banks grow etc.
An extra £20 billion is already going into the NHS.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:52 am

Only problem with that is that some of the more Euro-sceptic seats are Conservative held.

Farage isn't stupid (bigoted yes, morally bankrupt yes, full of **** yes) and for his party to survive post-Brexit he needs some MPs.

He hasn't got any yet and the failure in Peterborough would have been a huge reality check for him. He knows he has to run against the Conservatives to win.

Now post-election coalition is a possibility, but not pre I'd have thought.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by martin_p » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:54 am

Boris becoming Tory leader is Farage's worst nightmare. There'll be another 'say anything' populist in town and in power and it'll probably see the collapse of the Brexit Party support.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:18 am

Stockbrokerbelt wrote:Cloud cuckoo land, I think making big companies & rich individuals pay their fair share of tax etc is pretty straight forward not to mention raising corporation tax slightly to fund the NHS a sensible idea. Where as we could all vote blue again just to see the NHS collapse, homeless & food-banks grow etc.
You could indeed. You might with equal rationality blame the Tories for Burnley's relegation and the asteroid that will hit the earth in twenty minutes.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by martin_p » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:21 am

dsr wrote:You could indeed. You might with equal rationality blame the Tories for Burnley's relegation and the asteroid that will hit the earth in twenty minutes.
So you don't think that the Tory austerity measures and other policies have in any way contributed to the rise in the use of foodbanks then?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Falcon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:23 am

Except the government have an influence on the NHS, homelessness etc but no input on Burnley FC or the movement of celestial bodies.


Edit: this is aimed at dsr

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:27 am

martin_p wrote:So you don't think that the Tory austerity measures and other policies have in any way contributed to the rise in the use of foodbanks then?
Dsr thinks foodbanks are now used as a free shopping area for millenials who spend all their money on mobile phones or something remember
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by aggi » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:32 am

dsr wrote:You could indeed. You might with equal rationality blame the Tories for Burnley's relegation and the asteroid that will hit the earth in twenty minutes.
Saying that the Tories have no control over taxation, homelessness and the NHS is a pretty damning indictment of them.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:34 am

aggi wrote:Saying that the Tories have no control over taxation, homelessness and the NHS is a pretty damning indictment of them.
Crikey, have the EU got control of all that already?

WHY DID NOBODY WARN US?!?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:36 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Dsr thinks foodbanks are now used as a free shopping area for millenials who spend all their money on mobile phones or something remember
Don't be like turtle, so immersed in your own ideas that you lose the ability to understand others'.

DSR actually thinks that most people are richer than ever before and the poor are not poorer than ever before, and that food banks are more of a guide to society's attitudes than actual degrees of poverty. It's fashionable to believe that more food banks means more poverty; but for example we have more food banks than Somalia, but we aren't poorer. We have more food banks than in the 1930's, but we aren't poorer. Prosperity across the country has vastly increased in all our lifetimes. And back in the day, there were poor people, and people living on the streets, and people who were struggling for food. Adn just because they didn't have food banks to get food from, doesn't mean they didn't exist.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:39 am

Falcon wrote:Except the government have an influence on the NHS, homelessness etc but no input on Burnley FC or the movement of celestial bodies.


Edit: this is aimed at dsr
But the collapse of the NHS hasn't happened, just as the asteroid hasn't happened.

And most countries have increased use of food banks. Most rich countries, anyway. Germany has more than us - do you blame the Tories for that? Or is it more a function of rich people with plenty of food deciding to share more?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Falcon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:43 am

NHS hasn't collapsed yet but surely you are aware it is on its arse.

You can tell me that the ideological austerity imposed by the govt has no correlation with the increased use of food banks if you want but I won't believe you.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by LoveCurryPies » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:50 am

Boris has an inflated ego and I don't think he will see a need for Farage's racist supporters. However, he may will give Farage the knighthood he so craves.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:52 am

dsr wrote:Don't be like turtle, so immersed in your own ideas that you lose the ability to understand others'.

DSR actually thinks that most people are richer than ever before and the poor are not poorer than ever before, and that food banks are more of a guide to society's attitudes than actual degrees of poverty. It's fashionable to believe that more food banks means more poverty; but for example we have more food banks than Somalia, but we aren't poorer. We have more food banks than in the 1930's, but we aren't poorer. Prosperity across the country has vastly increased in all our lifetimes. And back in the day, there were poor people, and people living on the streets, and people who were struggling for food. Adn just because they didn't have food banks to get food from, doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Don't worry DSR, I understand you very well.

Its perfectly possibly for living standards to be higher than they have ever been and to have millions in poverty.

I don't particularly like either the Cons or Labour, but the the people at the bottom need a hell of a lot more help that those at the top, and it should be a national scandal that they are not getting it, especially as those at the top are getting richer and can afford to give more.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by aggi » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:57 am

On the original topic, it will never happen.

None of the major parties would be willing to show that kind of weakness (or willing to give the concessions it would require in advance).

Plus, the whole reason the Tories are going for Johnson is to, in his own words, "put Farage back in his box". I reckon if Johnson got in and made promises of Brexit no matter what then in a snap election the Brexit party wouldn't get a single seat.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by If it be your will » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:17 am

Falcon wrote:NHS hasn't collapsed yet but surely you are aware it is on its arse.

You can tell me that the ideological austerity imposed by the govt has no correlation with the increased use of food banks if you want but I won't believe you.
dsr has said many times that the increased use of food banks is because they're dishing out free food for freeloaders. It's a different world.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:24 am

If it be your will wrote:dsr has said many times that the increased use of food banks is because they're dishing out free food for freeloaders. It's a different world.
No he hasn't. Quote me if you think that's what I have said.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by If it be your will » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:25 am

dsr wrote:No he hasn't. Quote me if you think that's what I have said.
And you're the one saying 'Don't be like Turtle'???

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by If it be your will » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:38 am

dsr wrote:The reason food bank use is massively up is because food banks are no longer seen as the last resort for the destitute, they are now seen as a way of getting food without having to cut back on other spending. Most people now, if they are short of money and can't afford both their mobile phone contract and food purchases, will pay their mobile phone contract and get the free food. Once of a day, food would have been the priority and other expenses would be cut first.
dsr wrote:But if there are ten times as many people who use food banks now as there were 5 years ago, or 25 years ago, or 55 years ago, then it's not because we're so grindingly poor compared with those times. It's because of lifestyle changes, one of them being that the amount of possessions deemed essential for living is so much higher than it used to be, and one being that there is no longer any stigma (or at least, much less stigma) attached to begging for food. It is not because we are living in a uniquely impoverished time..
dsr wrote:Food bank usage is a function of two other things. One, their availability. Two, lack of social stigma to using them..
dsr wrote:No. I'm one of those who reckons that the reason there is more use of food banks than there used to be is because food banks are more available and that the social stigma has gone.
I got bored after these four.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Pstotto » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:41 am

If you let in 300,000 people a year into the country and they are not English, the N.H.S. would be expected to collapse, especially if they are from the developing world, bringing language and health and cultural problems with them e.g. 'Life is all suffering in the Hindu Kush, cos they've all got thrush'. Save the N.H.S. and send them all back.

Because of poor health standards in the developing world, a million people a day catching STDs. 370 million worldwide last year. Folk come here infected in their droves and because the UK media is putting forward ethnic minorities as the sex gods of our generation, indigenous girls are going out with them.

1. According to decolonization theory, back-date all post-war immigration to fixed working contracts status only.
2. End the right of commonwealth citizens to emigrate here. It was rhetorical to say they were English.

I think the OP's idea is sensible, look forward to it happening at the next general election.

Like I said before, if England were a car and it were a four-seater and you stuffed nine people in, you are likely to crash and everyone die. it's like turning England into a refugee boat with 400 people with no life-jackets on a dinghy and then watch as it capsizes.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:46 am

aggi wrote:On the original topic, it will never happen.

None of the major parties would be willing to show that kind of weakness (or willing to give the concessions it would require in advance).

Plus, the whole reason the Tories are going for Johnson is to, in his own words, "put Farage back in his box". I reckon if Johnson got in and made promises of Brexit no matter what then in a snap election the Brexit party wouldn't get a single seat.
Burnley has a very good chance of getting a Brexit party MP. It will never turn Tory there is a lot of hate for Julie Cooper in the town.
Only a Peterbrough style postal vote could save her.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:52 am

If it be your will wrote:I got bored after these four.
And you call those people freeloaders? Because I certainly don't. That is your interpretation.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:55 am

It cannot happen because the Tories are one of the world's leading political parties and then won't and can't suddenly stand down in dozens of seats. It would be akin to saying they can't do anything for the people of Burnley.

Whereas Boris has a real possibility to change the "won't vote Tory till I die" attitude.

It will take years to build trust but he has to give those people five things they desperately want:

1. A real, clean Brexit.
2. Tangible improvement in their living standards (hard to see how he does this while preserving house prices which will wrongly be his big objective)
3. Massive boost to infrastructure in those areas (e.g. HS3 coming before HS2 with fast connections from the small towns)
4. Reinvestment in public services like schools and police
5. Enterprise zones / low tax areas where incoming businesses are encouraged to set up (massive, not fiddling around the edges like before)

Now, I don't necessarily think he will deliver those things, but he is a populist so he may try to.

If a leader delivers those things, they will be the most popular leader in Northern England for over 50 years, whatever colour rosette they wear. Being honest, Corbyn will never deliver 1 and 5, plus 2 would depend on how well McDonnell would manage the economy. Only 3 and 4 could be guaranteed, by piling it onto debt.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:56 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Burnley has a very good chance of getting a Brexit party MP. It will never turn Tory there is a lot of hate for Julie Cooper in the town.
Only a Peterbrough style postal vote could save her.
One of the funniest things about Brexit Party voters is that they think they are cleverer than they actually are.

Care to explain to the board what a "Peterborough Style postal vote" really means?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Pstotto » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:04 am

A clean Brexit is a No Deal Brexit.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:30 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:One of the funniest things about Brexit Party voters is that they think they are cleverer than they actually are.

Care to explain to the board what a "Peterborough Style postal vote" really means?
I find it hard to believe with everyone you follow on twitter that you haven't seen this.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by martin_p » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:33 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:I find it hard to believe with everyone you follow on twitter that you haven't seen this.
I don't do much Twitter, explain it to me.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:35 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:I find it hard to believe with everyone you follow on twitter that you haven't seen this.
I know what it means

You know what it means.

I want you to tell everyone what it means.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by LoveCurryPies » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:39 am

martin_p wrote:I don't do much Twitter, explain it to me.
It's for Twits.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Quickenthetempo » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:40 am

martin_p wrote:I don't do much Twitter, explain it to me.
There are allegations that the 6k postal votes for Labour might not of been legit. Somebody still involved in the party has previously been done for postal vote fraud.

With it being only one vote, it would be a good opportunity to check with the postal voters. To see if the system works over here or is open to abuse.

Obviously, we couldn't check at national level as it would be too big a task.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by LoveCurryPies » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:57 am

Matt Hancock is out. And then there were 6.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:06 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:One of the funniest things about Brexit Party voters is that they think they are cleverer than they actually are.

Care to explain to the board what a "Peterborough Style postal vote" really means?
You know what it means, there are plenty of photos of said convicted fella at the count, and with Corbyn and the anti semitic candidate.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:33 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:There are allegations that the 6k postal votes for Labour might not of been legit. Somebody still involved in the party has previously been done for postal vote fraud.

With it being only one vote, it would be a good opportunity to check with the postal voters. To see if the system works over here or is open to abuse.

Obviously, we couldn't check at national level as it would be too big a task.
You've missed out the really, really important bit.

Try again.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:35 pm

AndyClaret wrote:You know what it means, there are plenty of photos of said convicted fella at the count, and with Corbyn and the anti semitic candidate.
Then you won't mind saying what you are insinuating will you?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Then you won't mind saying what you are insinuating will you?

lol. It's funny how all these supposedly straight-talkers, or people who like straight talking, always seem so coy when it comes to insinuating things like this.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:51 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Then you won't mind saying what you are insinuating will you?
3 people have been convicted of postal vote fraud, 1 of whom was very prominent in this bye election.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Lancasterclaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:53 pm

AndyClaret wrote:3 people have been convicted of postal vote fraud, 1 of whom was very prominent in this bye election.
And?

You are still missing the really, really, really important bit.

I mean, you are always the first to mention this kind of thing normally?

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by AndyClaret » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:58 pm

And ? Good grief, there are none so blind as those who choose not to see.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:02 pm

1. Postal voting is hugely open to fraud. We know that from Whitefield and other local election counts. (A Mayor of Burnley's parents were registered to vote without ever visiting the UK, let alone living here.)

2. Unexpectedly high numbers of postal voters in Peterborough suggest that there may have been fraud there as well. 29% of voters need a postal vote? I doubt it.

3. Labour wins, narrowly, with a convicted postal vote fraudster involved at the count.

Grounds for investigation?

Anyway, the postal vote system needs reforming. We need to go back to the secret ballot, which the postal vote system emphatically is not. Postal votes should be available only to those who need them, which in the case of able bodied people ought to be by personal application at the town hall, and in the case of disabled people by way of personal visit by a council official.
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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by Imploding Turtle » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:17 pm

I'm sorry. What? Is postal voting massively open to fraud. Or is it "emphatically" not secret? It can't be both.

It's really ******* easy to find voter fraud via postal voting. You just contact the people from whom you got postal votes and ask "hey, did you vote?". If they say "no" then you have evidence of a fraudulent vote to investigate.

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Re: Boris alliance with Brexit Party ....

Post by dsr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:02 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm sorry. What? Is postal voting massively open to fraud. Or is it "emphatically" not secret? It can't be both.

It's really ******* easy to find voter fraud via postal voting. You just contact the people from whom you got postal votes and ask "hey, did you vote?". If they say "no" then you have evidence of a fraudulent vote to investigate.
Can't be both? Seriously? If someone comes to you and says "vote for me or I'll break your legs" and then stands over you while you fill in the postal vote - is that not fraud? Postal vote fraud isn't restricted to stealing votes - there are other forms of electoral malpractice.

There is postal vote fraud by obtaining votes where the voter has not given permission, or where the voter has given permission under duress, or where the voter has been bribed. There is also postal vote fraud by the ballot not being secret, which means that someone else can force the voter to prove who he or she has voted for.

The point of the secret ballot - often misunderstood - is not that the voter has the right to keep the vote secret; it's that the voter must keep the vote secret. If your employer takes you to the polling booth and demands that you vote for him, he can't enforce it because you are not allowed to show anyone the voting paper - it is invalid if you do. That protection is not there with a postal vote.
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