C4 Conservative leader debate

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CombatClaret
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C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:14 pm

Rory Steward smashed it IMO, the only one willing to entertain the reality of the situation and that 'belief' only goes so far.

Hunt & Javid did alright.
Raab looks like someone who wants to wear your skin. Sooner he's out the better.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby ksrclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:24 pm

Agree with your assessment. Stewart clearly 'won' the debate, but still something slightly off about him for me, his attempts to appear human were obviously put on but still a hell of a lot better than the others.

Hunt and Javid okay. Michael Gove is still the most insincere, creepy, homunculus man he's always been. Raab is unhinged and most probably a vampire.

Best thing about the whole thing was listening to 5 members of the cabinet standing and talking about what a state the country is in. Whoever's been in the government during that time has a lot to answer for...
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby taio » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Prior to tonight thought Jeremy Hunt was probably the best of the bunch and still think the same after watching most of it.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:32 pm

Thought Javid did well

stewart smashed it

Gove is fighting a losing battle and I think knows it

Hunt is well, Jeremy Hunt

Raab is unhinged

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:36 pm

taio wrote:Prior to tonight thought Jeremy Hunt was probably the best of the bunch and still think the same after watching most of it.


He missed a golden chance to seem human when asked "What's your biggest weakness"

Answer should have been "My name"
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Quickenthetempo » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:38 pm

What's the point of tv debates apart from promoting their careers and ego's?

The MPs will know who they are putting forward and the members will know if they want Boris or not.

Rory Stewart might be a good leader for them in a few years after Brexit, but Farage would destroy the Cons with him in charge if a GE was ever called.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby taio » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:39 pm

CombatClaret wrote:He missed a golden chance to seem human when asked "What's your biggest weakness"

Answer should have been "My name"


That would have been an excellent response. To be fair he mocked himself for getting his wife's nationality wrong. Your suggestion would have been better though.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:41 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:What's the point of tv debates apart from promoting their careers and ego's?

The MPs will know who they are putting forward and the members will know if they want Boris or not.

Rory Stewart might be a good leader for them in a few years after Brexit, but Farage would destroy the Cons with him in charge if a GE was ever called.


Stewart got an MP to back him right after the debate.

His career is going to skyrocket if he keeps this up.

And he's a Brexiteer, so farage won't even know where to start with him.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby dermotdermot » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:41 pm

What a shambles! Cameron turned up over a decade ago to clear up the ‘mess’ that never was and just left the biggest pile of shite the world has ever seen.
Where is he? That’s what I would like to know.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Murger » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:46 pm

dermotdermot wrote:What a shambles! Cameron turned up over a decade ago to clear up the ‘mess’ that never was and just left the biggest pile of shite the world has ever seen.
Where is he? That’s what I would like to know.


He's in Nice with his trotters up.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby dermotdermot » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:48 pm

I dare say he is!

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:49 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Rory Stewart might be a good leader for them in a few years after Brexit, but Farage would destroy the Cons with him in charge if a GE was ever called.


Javid with one of the quotes of the night "You don't beat the Brexit Party by becoming the Brexit Party."
Johnson is essentially that, trying to out-personality Farage

Get enough center ground support who knows.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:53 pm

Thing is, I can support a Brexit that isn't ideologically driven.

I'm defo of the centre so someone who tells me what the problems of Brexit are and doesn't try to hide them in rubbish about sunlit uplands and that we voted for pain will be someone I can believe will have a Brexit that fulfils the mandate and stops us going completely over the edge.

There are a lot like me, and the Brexiteers will only get a Brexit if they can get enough people like that to back it, or they will have to stage a coup (ie prologue Parliament) to do it.

I don't do demonstrations or owt like that, but anyone does that and I'm on the street protesting about it, and I doubt I'd be the only one.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby timshorts » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:57 pm

Other than raab, I'm guessing that win or not, most of that lot did themselves some favours just by appearing. It will help whoever it is that makes the final against the 1/6 on disaster that is waiting to make the country more of a laughing stock than we are already making it.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Bin Ont Turf » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:59 pm

Did anyone put their foot through the tele watching that?
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby taio » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:03 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thing is, I can support a Brexit that isn't ideologically driven.

I'm defo of the centre so someone who tells me what the problems of Brexit are and doesn't try to hide them in rubbish about sunlit uplands and that we voted for pain will be someone I can believe will have a Brexit that fulfils the mandate and stops us going completely over the edge.

There are a lot like me, and the Brexiteers will only get a Brexit if they can get enough people like that to back it, or they will have to stage a coup (ie prologue Parliament) to do it.

I don't do demonstrations or owt like that, but anyone does that and I'm on the street protesting about it, and I doubt I'd be the only one.


The more sensible candidates were scathing about proroguing (prologue??). The exception was Raab. It would indeed be a disgrace.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Clarets4me » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:04 pm

I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby taio » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:07 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?


Yes.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby taio » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:13 pm

Stewart performed well enough. He'll be preferred by non-Tories. But they won't have any say in who's the next PM.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby dermotdermot » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?


I did at the last election. First time ever. I voted for a big pansy called Conor Burns in Bournemouth. Anything but a vote for the nastiest person on the planet who shall unfortunately remain Corbyn.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Spiral » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:19 pm

Jeremy Hunt raising the issue of adult illiteracy on at least two separate occasions was just beautiful.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby TheFamilyCat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:22 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Javid with one of the quotes of the night "You don't beat the Brexit Party by becoming the Brexit Party."
Johnson is essentially that, trying to out-personality Farage

Get enough center ground support who knows.


A personality contest between Boris and Farage? 0-0AET.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:46 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?


Yes (only the once though!)

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:46 pm

Stewart came across as a male version of Teresa May.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:50 pm

Stewart seemed a nice guy but portrayed himself as a bumbling idiot,but he was the best of that bunch by a million miles.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:56 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Stewart seemed a nice guy but portrayed himself as a bumbling idiot,but he was the best of that bunch by a million miles.

Maybe he was deliberately aiming to "out-bumble" Boris in the "idiot" stakes, seeing as some on here see Boris as being unstoppable?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby TheFamilyCat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:57 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Stewart seemed a nice guy but portrayed himself as a bumbling idiot,but he was the best of that bunch by a million miles.


Should work in his favour seeing as the MP’s favourite is the biggest bumbling idiot in parliament.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:58 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Stewart came across as a male version of Teresa May.

Can't think of any similarities at all. He has vision, realism,policies, personality and an ability to debate engagingly.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:09 pm

Come on guys,the Tories are scaping the barrel with these 6, politics is completely devoid of any characters ......same with Labour,whoever prevails this country is being run by supposedly intelligent idiots. :D

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:11 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Can't think of any similarities at all. He has vision, realism,policies, personality and an ability to debate engagingly.

I thought the cramming three bin bags into an already full bin was jolly good fun :D

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:12 pm

Refreshing to hear some one say they don't know everything and to listen to people who've put their lives into learning and training.
"The people in Tech know more about me at tech, the doctors know more than me about medicine..." - Stewart

Not two meters from “people in this country have had enough of experts” Mr Gove
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby timshorts » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:16 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:A personality contest between Boris and Farage? 0-0AET.

Both are refusing to take part in the replay.......

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Spiral » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:16 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Stewart seemed a nice guy but portrayed himself as a bumbling idiot,but he was the best of that bunch by a million miles.


Really? He seems quite naturally dorky but that isn't (shouldn't be - in an ideal world) a disqualifying characteristic. (edit-I'd agree he's the best but disagree with you on him being a bumbling idiot; not according to any definition of the word I know.) It's more endearing, to my mind at least, that he's comfortable in his skin despite him not fitting the mould of what you'd expect from a leader in terms of aesthetic, performance art, rhetoric, cadence etc. I enjoyed him calling out the other candidates - none of whom would in all likelihood last two rounds with a sodding chihuahua - for confusing pretending to be well 'ard with leadership. It isn't a new phenomena but I'll never not be disheartened by the way in which people put faith in characters over, and often at the expense of, sound ideas. It's downright unpatriotic to allow yourself to be taken in by circus performers with decent oration. I think you owe it to your country and to yourself to be a bit more thoughtful than that.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby elwaclaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:25 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Come on guys,the Tories are scaping the barrel with these 6, politics is completely devoid of any characters ......same with Labour,whoever prevails this country is being run by supposedly intelligent idiots. :D


Characters?
One forgot where his wife comes from
One spent a fortune to get a camera crew because he didn’t know how to take a video selfie, and when questioned simply admitted the “effect”
And Boris

One thing they have is characters’

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:39 pm

Spiral wrote:Really? He seems quite naturally dorky but that isn't (shouldn't be - in an ideal world) a disqualifying characteristic. (edit-I'd agree he's the best but disagree with you on him being a bumbling idiot; not according to any definition of the word I know.) It's more endearing, to my mind at least, that he's comfortable in his skin despite him not fitting the mould of what you'd expect from a leader in terms of aesthetic, performance art, rhetoric, cadence etc. I enjoyed him calling out the other candidates - none of whom would in all likelihood last two rounds with a sodding chihuahua - for confusing pretending to be well 'ard with leadership. It isn't a new phenomena but I'll never not be disheartened by the way in which people put faith in characters over, and often at the expense of, sound ideas. It's downright unpatriotic to allow yourself to be taken in by circus performers with decent oration. I think you owe it to your country and to yourself to be a bit more thoughtful than that.

Maybe it's a clever ploy to be Dorky,I wasn't dissing the fella,like I said he's the best of that bunch,and I'd include BJ in that as well.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:40 pm

elwaclaret wrote:Characters?
One forgot where his wife comes from
One spent a fortune to get a camera crew because he didn’t know how to take a video selfie, and when questioned simply admitted the “effect”
And Boris

One thing they have is characters’

:lol: Getaway!

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:41 pm

The only thing that disappointed me was Johnson not bursting through the doors halfway through.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby tiger76 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?


I lent them my vote in 2017,mainly due to them pledging a sensible brexit(don't know where that idea disappeared too),and they're also rans in my constituency,so it was a safe vote.

For me the big winner was Rory,Javid was decent,Gove and Hunt OK,but i don't remember any KO lines or policies from either,Raab can bluster all he wants about proroguing the HOC,but it's never going to happen,and there was a valid argument that if Jeremy Corbyn attempted such a stunt when in power,the Conservatives would quite rightly be screaming blue murder.

It felt flat but if the front runner shirks the challenge some intensity will undoubtedly be lost,i'm still undecided whether Boris made the correct call on refusing to show,on the one hand he can't be directly questioned and commit a faux pas,on the other his lack of media appearances is getting noted.

Tuesday's BBC debate should throw up more detailed questioning,and that could highlight Johnson and Raab's lack of attention to detail,if Raab makes the final cut,soundbites will only get you so far,i also noticed they where all apart from possibly Rory Stewart pledging increased funding for social care and education in particular,however they where less forthcoming on how this would be funded,surprise,surprise as Cilla would say.

And lastly they all spent far too much time attacking Labour and Jeremy Corbyn,now for what it's worth i think Corbyn's a mad socialist who along with McDonnell would bankrupt the country,but this wasn't a GE debate,it was an internal Tory leadership hustings,and Guru-Murthy allowed them to wonder off the topic in question and deliver attacks on the opposition who couldn't riposte far too readily.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:43 pm

Spiral wrote: It's downright unpatriotic to allow yourself to be taken in by circus performers with decent oration.


To quote a divisive observer
"It's a lot easier to sell tickets to the Ghost Train than it is to sell tickets to the Speak Your Weight Machine."

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Steve1956 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:44 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I'd be interested to know if any of the previous posters have ever/would ever vote Conservative ?

Never!

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby tiger76 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:47 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Stewart came across as a male version of Teresa May.


No! he can't be likened to May,he listens to people and doesn't close his ears to advice.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby jrgbfc » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:59 pm

Interesting the part where they were talking about knife crime and how the answer is educating and investing in young people, when all of them have been part of a government that has done nothing but cut funding and decimate youth services.
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If it be your will
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby If it be your will » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:05 pm

When Tory voters express an opinion on whom should be the Labour leader, I consider it ridiculous. As such, I think Tories should choose the leader they want to represent them.

As a Corbyn fan I do ask myself, though, which candidate would definitely beat Corbyn? It's definitely Stewart.

(In my view, Boris would absolutely gift the next election to Corbyn.)

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby DCWat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:05 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Never!


So an election approaches, the manifestos are launched, and even if you felt a Tory manifesto was the best for the country (perhaps an off chance from your political standing) it’d still be “never”?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby If it be your will » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:08 pm

DCWat wrote:So an election approaches, the manifestos are launched, and even if you felt a Tory manifesto was the best for the country (perhaps an off chance from your political standing) it’d still be “never”?

Yeah. I think so, yeah.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Rick_Muller » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:11 pm

I’ve never voted Tory, but I was impressed with Stewart when he spoke on the radio on Friday. I’d much rather have him in charge than BoJo...

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Clarets4me » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:15 pm

If Jeremy Hunt became Prime Minister, then spray paint sales will go through the roof, as amateur graffiti artists make small but significant alterations to Electoral Posters, featuring his name .... ;) ;)

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby mdd2 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:24 pm

Jeremy Hurt?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby DCWat » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:24 pm

If it be your will wrote:Yeah. I think so, yeah.


I find that strange. We all have our political leanings but it surprises me how many appear unwilling to consider alternatives, to their norm.

I’ve not seen the debate from this evening. It doesn’t surprise me that Rory Stewart came across well though. He’s the most centre right and for me, would be the best option - as unlikely as it looks it will be.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Spiral » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:33 pm

DCWat wrote:So an election approaches, the manifestos are launched, and even if you felt a Tory manifesto was the best for the country (perhaps an off chance from your political standing) it’d still be “never”?


I'm inferring your argument, here, so I apologise if I'm being presumptuous, but folk have made this argument on here (and elsewhere) before: that "never (*insert party*)" is a somehow dogmatic stance; the natural assumed conclusion being that 'open mindedness' is somehow more pragmatic, ergo, virtuous. But such an argument doesn't factor in that some people have more cogently and precisely attuned worldviews than others; that those worldviews (whatever they may be) are often entirely rational, and are informed by our individual values as humans. One can't accuse another of dogma for refusing to betray their values. (The obvious caveat being that parties generally don't break from their values without utterly redefining what they are as a party.)


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