Yes....and Labour as well...never.....again.DCWat wrote:So an election approaches, the manifestos are launched, and even if you felt a Tory manifesto was the best for the country (perhaps an off chance from your political standing) it’d still be “never”?
C4 Conservative leader debate
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
That parties generally don’t stray too far is a completely fair argument though there have been, and continue to be shifts - which to some are seen as betrayal.
A more centrist Tory leader would be a good thing and perhaps could / should appeal to some of those historically unwilling to switch.
A more centrist Tory leader would be a good thing and perhaps could / should appeal to some of those historically unwilling to switch.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
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Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Interesting question.If it be your will wrote:As a Corbyn fan I do ask myself, though, which candidate would definitely beat Corbyn? It's definitely Stewart
The big mistake made by Osborne (a devout advocate of it), Cameron (who wasn’t but was led that way by Osborne) and May - they all felt that the way forward for the Tories was to occupy the centre ground. Neither left nor right wing. The bit that Blair occupied.
I think Stewart is similar. And thus similarly inept. I don’t subscribe to the view that he won tonight.
Thatcher was right. So is Boris. The way forward is not the centre ground, it is the common ground (a phrase first attributed to Keith Joseph).
Person A may be a working class electrical apprentice and Person B may be a 40 year old entrepreneur from a rich family. The things they have in common is that they both want to succeed, they both want good education for their kids when they have them, they both want income to lead to a better quality of life, they both want good public services with good transport infrastructure around them.
Stewart’s approach will please nobody by trying to find that imaginary line in between everyone. Boris’s approach will be to appeal to as broad a group as possible, first of all the Leavers, then the “strivers” (with his tax cuts), then the left behind areas with transport and all areas in terms of education.
That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
It's amazing isn't it the prospect of power or an election and suddenly they morph from Ebenzer Scrooge and all of them turn into Santa Claus.jrgbfc wrote:Interesting the part where they were talking about knife crime and how the answer is educating and investing in young people, when all of them have been part of a government that has done nothing but cut funding and decimate youth services.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I am wary of this too. I will be attending a hustings in 2 weeks time and I intend to ask Boris and Candidate B that kind of question. I expect a manifesto with the kind of commitments that are in my above post. I would very much hope and expect members in the North to share similar views to me, compassionate small c conservatism if you will. Let’s see.If it be your will wrote:I struggle to conceive of a Conservative manifesto that would earn my vote. Their members and financial backers simply would not allow them to present such a manifesto to the electorate.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
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Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Just for reference, I don't think Thatcher alienated many people re. the miners. Or at least, by supporting the Nottinghamshire miners and crushing the Yorkshire ones. Obviously she wouldn't get many votes in yorkshire mining towns, but then she wouldn't anyway; but apart from the most ardent trades unionists, there wasn't any great support for the Yorkshire miners.CrosspoolClarets wrote:That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
That's some entertaining political fan fiction. Discussion of left/right/centre ground is a discussion about ideology, which is fundamentally abstract and whose labels are little more than descriptive. The minute you assume those labels are prescriptive (as you do above) as though they have any bearing on how the masses vote, you abandon reality. Elections aren't fought on the left or right or centre, or whatever that means - reality isn't a mechanical beam scale - they're fought on the clarity, worth, strengths and weaknesses of policy ideas as positioned and advanced in accordance with the strength and trustworthiness of their advocates. You want people to be well off and successful and have opportunities? Guess what? everyone does. Striving for prosperity isn't monopolised by the Tories or by leavers. You'd do well to make a habit of asking yourself: "what is the single best intention of the person proposing this policy" before assuming those with whom you disagree are on some sort of jealous race to the bottom. I also think it's patronising of you to reckon desperate folk could be won over by promising that the trains will run on time.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Interesting question.
The big mistake made by Osborne (a devout advocate of it), Cameron (who wasn’t but was led that way by Osborne) and May - they all felt that the way forward for the Tories was to occupy the centre ground. Neither left nor right wing. The bit that Blair occupied.
I think Stewart is similar. And thus similarly inept. I don’t subscribe to the view that he won tonight.
Thatcher was right. So is Boris. The way forward is not the centre ground, it is the common ground (a phrase first attributed to Keith Joseph).
Person A may be a working class electrical apprentice and Person B may be a 40 year old entrepreneur from a rich family. The things they have in common is that they both want to succeed, they both want good education for their kids when they have them, they both want income to lead to a better quality of life, they both want good public services with good transport infrastructure around them.
Stewart’s approach will please nobody by trying to find that imaginary line in between everyone. Boris’s approach will be to appeal to as broad a group as possible, first of all the Leavers, then the “strivers” (with his tax cuts), then the left behind areas with transport and all areas in terms of education.
That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The Tories could pick any of those tonight (or BoJo) and still look centrist compared to Corbyn, tbh.If it be your will wrote:I think you've exposed a logical inconsistency. It feels disconcerting.
I am very much of the view that the political centre has, for whatever reason, evaporated. Change UK spring to mind, and the Lib Dem surge can only realistically be explained by the 'remain' vote - no one seems to know any other Lib Dem policy, after all. As such, I believe those suggesting Labour should move back to the centre in order to win are completely and utterly mistaken. They'd just wither and die if they did that.
Therefore, by the same token, I think the Tories should choose someone they truly believe in, and ignore the centrists.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Boris was the big winner, let the other 5 fight it out for second place.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.CrosspoolClarets wrote:Interesting question.
The big mistake made by Osborne (a devout advocate of it), Cameron (who wasn’t but was led that way by Osborne) and May - they all felt that the way forward for the Tories was to occupy the centre ground. Neither left nor right wing. The bit that Blair occupied.
I think Stewart is similar. And thus similarly inept. I don’t subscribe to the view that he won tonight.
Thatcher was right. So is Boris. The way forward is not the centre ground, it is the common ground (a phrase first attributed to Keith Joseph).
Person A may be a working class electrical apprentice and Person B may be a 40 year old entrepreneur from a rich family. The things they have in common is that they both want to succeed, they both want good education for their kids when they have them, they both want income to lead to a better quality of life, they both want good public services with good transport infrastructure around them.
Stewart’s approach will please nobody by trying to find that imaginary line in between everyone. Boris’s approach will be to appeal to as broad a group as possible, first of all the Leavers, then the “strivers” (with his tax cuts), then the left behind areas with transport and all areas in terms of education.
That’s why Boris will crush Corbyn once he delivers Brexit. He just has to avoid Thatcher’s mistake and not alienate a large chunk by a desperately bad policy (miners, poll tax etc), and also remember the poorest are not a big group but still need looking after.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I didn't watch it as I have no say in who becomes their leader. I suppose I should have done to see what will become the new Prime Minister but all I see is just television entertainment, not really politics - like Question Time which I used to be able to watch but is now unbearable.
I think a factor that eludes some people is that any Prime Minister will have to deal with the most dodgy characters on the world stage that you can imagine and so you need a certain quality to be able to do this. Being an honest Mister Nice Guy is nowhere near enough. You surely have to have a bit of a criminal mind to understand these people.
I think a factor that eludes some people is that any Prime Minister will have to deal with the most dodgy characters on the world stage that you can imagine and so you need a certain quality to be able to do this. Being an honest Mister Nice Guy is nowhere near enough. You surely have to have a bit of a criminal mind to understand these people.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
On a technical note, putting your foot through a modern LED television is not so easy as the old cathode ray tube designs. You don't get that satisfying implosion and it's attendant bang. Plus some people put their TVs high up on the wall so you need to be some kung fu practitioner to succeed.Bin Ont Turf wrote:Did anyone put their foot through the tele watching that?
Life has certainly taken a turn for the worse.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
He's endorsing Johnson, so I'd say it's a bit harsh on Mickey, in all honesty.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Mickey Mouse aka Boris Johnson will deliver Brexit after somehow tweaking Mrs May's deal. Portillo sees him putting the Backstop/ Customs union just in NI which was the original EU offer with a possible referendum in NI to seek approval of that part of the deal.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
God help us if that shower is the best group of people we can find to become PM. A seriously mediocre bunch of very limited talent.
Fair play to Stewart for at least being honest about no deal being unviable and highlighting the fact that we are a parliamentary democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.
Whoever gets it, they'll be in the same boat as May come October. Another extension will be required, and we can't just repeat this circus during the next extended time period. Something will have to change.
Fair play to Stewart for at least being honest about no deal being unviable and highlighting the fact that we are a parliamentary democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.
Whoever gets it, they'll be in the same boat as May come October. Another extension will be required, and we can't just repeat this circus during the next extended time period. Something will have to change.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The DUP will never go for that. If he tries that they could well pull the plug on the government, which could lead to a general election.mdd2 wrote:Mickey Mouse aka Boris Johnson will deliver Brexit after somehow tweaking Mrs May's deal. Portillo sees him putting the Backstop/ Customs union just in NI which was the original EU offer with a possible referendum in NI to seek approval of that part of the deal.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
JohnMcGreal wrote:God help us if that shower is the best group of people we can find to become PM. A seriously mediocre bunch of very limited talent.
Fair play to Stewart for at least being honest about no deal being unviable and highlighting the fact that we are a parliamentary democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.
Whoever gets it, they'll be in the same boat as May come October. Another extension will be required, and we can't just repeat this circus during the next extended time period. Something will have to change.
There is a lot worse out there than any of that shower. Including the biggest danger leading the opposition
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Most non-Tories would take this view just for partisan reasons - they would say the same unobjectively no matter who the candidates are. Some of these people believe Labour is well-led by their leader and shadow cabinet.JohnMcGreal wrote:God help us if that shower is the best group of people we can find to become PM. A seriously mediocre bunch of very limited talent.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
You never know JM; something has to give somewhere and faced with no deal or May mark 15 maybe just maybe enough of the sheep will go into the Government lobby.JohnMcGreal wrote:The DUP will never go for that. If he tries that they could well pull the plug on the government, which could lead to a general election.
Of course it would only take 7 Sinn Fein to come over and vote against the Government and scupper this Parliament irrespective of the DUP. Interesting why this has never happened
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Matt Hancock withdrew on friday and yesterday came out as supporting Boris. I suspect Boris & his team are offering cabinet roles and Matt is just the first to bite. Wonder which of the 6 will be next?
I did think Rory won the night but he will lose the war. Gove talking into the camera had clearly been briefed by his wife, the Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine. She's a nasty piece of work and the thought of her being in number 10 should set alarm bells ringing.
I did think Rory won the night but he will lose the war. Gove talking into the camera had clearly been briefed by his wife, the Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine. She's a nasty piece of work and the thought of her being in number 10 should set alarm bells ringing.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Must admit my first thought about Hancock supporting Boris was he's just looking after himself.LoveCurryPies wrote:Matt Hancock withdrew on friday and yesterday came out as supporting Boris. I suspect Boris & his team are offering cabinet roles and Matt is just the first to bite. Wonder which of the 6 will be next?
I did think Rory won the night but he will lose the war. Gove talking into the camera had clearly been briefed by his wife, the Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine. She's a nasty piece of work and the thought of her being in number 10 should set alarm bells ringing.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
And you wouldn't endorse Mickey Mouse over Donald Trump? Of course you would.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I'd be too flabbergasted to wonder how Mickey Mouse won the democratic nomination to care!dsr wrote:And you wouldn't endorse Mickey Mouse over Donald Trump? Of course you would.
I'm very surprised that Crosspool is endorsing Johnson over Stewart (for example). JOhnson does what is best for Johnson, and that could be absolutely anything. Stewart has insisted that we must Brexit.
If I was a Brexiteer, I know which one I'd trust to deliver Brexit (I'm assuming that Raab coming across as a swivel eyed loon has torpedoed his chances as even the most Brexity Brexit voter can recognise that he's got no electoral pull outside of the Conservative Party)
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
This is going to trigger the likes of Ringo and Andyclaret but JOB has just nailed Rory Stewart
"I disagree with Rory Stewart about how we should deal with reality, but he actually recognises reality."
Recognising reality is a key stage to uniting the country behind a sensible Brexit.
"I disagree with Rory Stewart about how we should deal with reality, but he actually recognises reality."
Recognising reality is a key stage to uniting the country behind a sensible Brexit.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Yep, let's try and put through the same withdrawal agreement that has been rejected 3 times.Lancasterclaret wrote:This is going to trigger the likes of Ringo and Andyclaret but JOB has just nailed Rory Stewart
"I disagree with Rory Stewart about how we should deal with reality, but he actually recognises reality."
Recognising reality is a key stage to uniting the country behind a sensible Brexit.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Hilary Clinton got it last time. Possibly the only person who could have lost to Donald Trump. If she can do it, so can Mickey.Lancasterclaret wrote:I'd be too flabbergasted to wonder how Mickey Mouse won the democratic nomination to care!
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Recognising reality of where we are and the only way to avoid a "No Deal" short of "No Brexit".AndyClaret wrote:Yep, let's try and put through the same withdrawal agreement that has been rejected 3 times.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Your daily reminder that twitter isn't representative of the real world.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status ... 15808?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status ... 15808?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
None of the candidates impressed me. I wont even bother watching anything else now, when I get my ballot paper ill be voting for Boris
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The question posed was which candidate is best placed to beat Corbyn, not to deliver Brexit.Lancasterclaret wrote:lets be honest here, you'd endorse Mickey Mouse if you thought he'd deliver Brexit.
I then went on to suggest that is who commands the common ground, not the centre ground. Corbyn’s challenge is to find common ground with reasonably successful people, for the Tories it is less fortunate or left behind people. Boris has talked a lot about those people, which is why I (currently) endorse him, but he does need to be tested on that over the next 3 weeks. Today’s Boris article was about fibre broadband for all, a typical common ground issue and one long overdue for attention.
Brexit is nothing to do with any of that, other than it being the key trigger to give many of those people a voice for the first time in a long time.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The tweet clearly states that fieldwork was completed on Friday. Televised debates tend to have an major influence on these kinds of polls, so that poll might be a now-unreliable indicator. Let's at least wait for the post-debate data.AndyClaret wrote:Your daily reminder that twitter isn't representative of the real world.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status ... 15808?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.Spiral wrote:The tweet clearly states that fieldwork was completed on Friday. Televised debates tend to have an major influence on these kinds of polls, so that poll might be a now-unreliable indicator. Let's at least wait for the post-debate data.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I don't doubt those figures, but how are they relevant to the reporting of the debate on the news etc, and the the discussion that is going on up and down the country today. How many of those 4 million who watched Countryfile (e.g.) do you think have engaged with issues raised on the programme since yesterday.?AndyClaret wrote:The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.
I didn't watch any of the 3, but I've become fairly well informed about the debate, (and watched parts of it), whereas I don't have a clue what was on Countryfile or who won the football.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... sed-debate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You don't need to watch it, but read Crace's take on it.
You don't need to watch it, but read Crace's take on it.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Hipper wrote:On a technical note, putting your foot through a modern LED television is not so easy as the old cathode ray tube designs. You don't get that satisfying implosion and it's attendant bang. Plus some people put their TVs high up on the wall so you need to be some kung fu practitioner to succeed.
Life has certainly taken a turn for the worse.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
That about sums it up brilliantly.AndrewJB wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... sed-debate
You don't need to watch it, but read Crace's take on it.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
892 Tory members sampled. And even clocking at 1m pairs of eyeballs on this circus, that's 840,000 more than the total Conservative membership. I'd hazard a guess paid up Tories would have an interest in the televised debates. Look, I'm not arguing here nor there on who will/should win; I'm just pointing out that the data you're taking to be a sound representation of the views of party membership might be a bit useless, now. I'm not making a point about partisan issues, I'm making a point about data.AndyClaret wrote:The debates were watched by just over 1m people, 5m were watching socceraid, and 4m were watching countryfile.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
An interesting (but lengthy) profile on Stewart in the New Yorker from just after he was first elected in 2011
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010 ... ian-parker" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010 ... ian-parker" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Sinn Fein stand on a pledge of not appearing in Parliament. Their view is that they have a mandate to not vote.mdd2 wrote:You never know JM; something has to give somewhere and faced with no deal or May mark 15 maybe just maybe enough of the sheep will go into the Government lobby.
Of course it would only take 7 Sinn Fein to come over and vote against the Government and scupper this Parliament irrespective of the DUP. Interesting why this has never happened
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I see May apparently voted for Rory as did her lapdog Liddington. No surprises there. Like Rory they are both remainders and this confirms that she was never serious about a free trade deal. Rory has no clue how to get a deal through the HOC other than a no doubt rigged Citizen's Panel.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Rory roaring on. Seems he has some momentum now, whereas Boris appears to be promising everything to everyone. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-momentum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
I hope this'll be taken in good spirit , but the only notable thing about Rory Stewart is that he appears to have William Defoe's come face.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The Tories are ripping themselves apart at the moment. Calling each other liars in every interview in a bid to make their man look the best leader.
You couldn't make it up.
You couldn't make it up.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
**** me, thats some take.summitclaret wrote:I see May apparently voted for Rory as did her lapdog Liddington. No surprises there. Like Rory they are both remainders and this confirms that she was never serious about a free trade deal. Rory has no clue how to get a deal through the HOC other than a no doubt rigged Citizen's Panel.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Made me laugh!RingoMcCartney wrote:I hope this'll be taken in good spirit , but the only notable thing about Rory Stewart is that he appears to have William Defoe's come face.
Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
Indeed, negotiating peace deals with warring factions in Afghanistan is one thing but dealing with Nigel is an entirely different ball game.summitclaret wrote:I see May apparently voted for Rory as did her lapdog Liddington. No surprises there. Like Rory they are both remainders and this confirms that she was never serious about a free trade deal. Rory has no clue how to get a deal through the HOC other than a no doubt rigged Citizen's Panel.
Farage would have him for breakfast.
(Although I don't have any expectation that Stewart will get in, I reckon he's positioning himself for the next leadership campaign after Boris screws up and they're looking to go the other way.)
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
You've got to remember that Farage would take a rifle and head to the hills just like the Mujahideen did if brexit fails.aggi wrote:Indeed, negotiating peace deals with warring factions in Afghanistan is one thing but dealing with Nigel is an entirely different ball game.
(Although I don't have any expectation that Stewart will get in, I reckon he's positioning himself for the next leadership campaign after Boris screws up and they're looking to go the other way.)
He's the one for summit is Nigel, and no amount of common sense and pointing out the absurdities of what he's said is going to change that!
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate
The members will vote for whoever is most prepared to parrot their own ignorant and boneheaded views back at them, which rules out Stewart, who actually seems to have some grasp of reality.AndrewJB wrote:Rory roaring on. Seems he has some momentum now, whereas Boris appears to be promising everything to everyone. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-momentum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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