C4 Conservative leader debate

[AndrewJB]

The members will vote for whoever is most prepared to parrot their own ignorant and boneheaded views back at them, which rules out Stewart, who actually seems to have some grasp of reality.

I think you're right.

[Steve1956]

Who is everyone's guess to go today,looks like Raab is a dead man walking to me,abysmal performance the other day.

[aggi]

Personally if I was strongly pro-Brexit I wouldn't be that keen on Johnson getting the leadership. Most of the others are ideologically driven to get out of the EU but I think most would agree that Johnson's ideology is himself first and the rest of it down the list.

He's the candidate I see as most likely to spin not leaving the EU or leaving with a close relationship as a good thing if that's the way the wind is blowing.

[nil_desperandum]

Who is everyone's guess to go today,looks like Raab is a dead man walking to me,abysmal performance the other day.

It will be unbelievable if Raab reaches 33 votes after his performances this week, and I think Sajid Javid might get squeezed out by "one nation" Conservatives, who want to ensure that Stewart passes the 33 vote threshold and is thus able to share the platform with Johnson this evening.
So they're the 2 to go for me.

[Lancasterclaret]

Personally if I was strongly pro-Brexit I wouldn't be that keen on Johnson getting the leadership. Most of the others are ideologically driven to get out of the EU but I think most would agree that Johnson's ideology is himself first and the rest of it down the list.

He's the candidate I see as most likely to spin not leaving the EU or leaving with a close relationship as a good thing if that's the way the wind is blowing.

100% do not get why he has ERG support because of exactly this.

[nil_desperandum]

Personally if I was strongly pro-Brexit I wouldn't be that keen on Johnson getting the leadership. Most of the others are ideologically driven to get out of the EU but I think most would agree that Johnson's ideology is himself first and the rest of it down the list.

He's the candidate I see as most likely to spin not leaving the EU or leaving with a close relationship as a good thing if that's the way the wind is blowing.

I've been saying that to people for ages. If the wind starts to blow in favour of remain then he'll ditch "leave" as quickly and easily as he switched to "leave" in 2016 ,(so long as he can drag the Telegraph and a couple of other newspapers with him).
He has no principles, morals or policies - only ambition, so "leavers" should be wary of what they vote for.

[If it be your will]

.

[aggi]

Rumours that Johnson may lend some votes to Hunt to keep him in the race as a safe, low-energy opponent.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status ... 49122?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

And more on that YouGov survey of Conservative party members:



It looks like Brexit is eating the party. Cameron's magnificent ploy of having a referendum to heal the divisions in the party is looking ever more ludicrous.

[Lancasterclaret]

Its reassuring that 40% realise that Farage is toxic.

Essentially he'll never be in charge, because you either think he's amazing or loathe him.

[dsr]

Rumours that Johnson may lend some votes to Hunt to keep him in the race as a safe, low-energy opponent.
https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status ... 49122?s=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That, I think, is on a par with the "Burnley to sign Dawson for £15m" rumours.

Apart from anything else, if Boris is already up to a majority of the MPs' vote, then why wouldn't he want to go to the menbership with the backing of a convincing majority of MPs?

[Greenmile]

I hope this'll be taken in good spirit , but the only notable thing about Rory Stewart is that he appears to have William Defoe's come face.

This is quite a witty and astute observation.

Who did you steal it from?

[aggi]

That, I think, is on a par with the "Burnley to sign Dawson for £15m" rumours.

Apart from anything else, if Boris is already up to a majority of the MPs' vote, then why wouldn't he want to go to the menbership with the backing of a convincing majority of MPs?

I've given it a bit more credibility as it's from the editor of the Spectator/Telegraph columnist so I imagine has plenty of links with Johnson.

Plus of course this is still a few stages from the final, he can end with a convincing majority still.

[RingoMcCartney]

This is quite a witty and astute observation.

Who did you steal it from?

Mrs Defoe.

[Tall Paul]

Does William Defoe look anything like the well known actor Willem Dafoe of Green Goblin fame?

If so, there does seem to be a likeness to Rory Stewart.

[ElectroClaret]

Raab out, just announced.

[mkmel]

No surprise

[Lancasterclaret]

Raab out

Somehow the most Brexity Brexity candidate is out already.

Not sure how what that means, but its probably good news for Johnson

Stewart gaining votes like mad. If he does well tonight v Johnson, then he could be the alternative candidate that would make this interesting

[nil_desperandum]

Team Boris won't be delighted that Stewart got through by the skin of his teeth and will be there to debate with Johnson this evening.
If Javid withdraws before the next round then we could see Stewart rising into 2nd place

[nil_desperandum]

Raab out

Somehow the most Brexity Brexity candidate is out already.

I think that that honour fell to Esther McVey, but she was the very first out.
Maybe WTO / no deal brexit isn't so attractive to Tory MPs afterall.

[mdd2]

This should be good I do hope that Rory destroys Boris tonight.

[AndyClaret]

Team Boris won't be delighted that Stewart got through by the skin of his teeth and will be there to debate with Johnson this evening.
If Javid withdraws before the next round then we could see Stewart rising into 2nd place

Raab's 30 votes will go to Boris and Gove, Javid has a lot of brexiteer support as well, can't see Stewert gaining unless some switch from hunt.

[aggi]

I've given it a bit more credibility as it's from the editor of the Spectator/Telegraph columnist so I imagine has plenty of links with Johnson.

Plus of course this is still a few stages from the final, he can end with a convincing majority still.

Although the latest theory is that some of Johnson's votes went to Javid in order to ensure that he got through to avoid a large number of Javid's votes going to Stewart if he was eliminated.

So who knows. (Although Gavin Williamson is meant to be orchestrating this so it may well be leaked soon.)

[summitclaret]

I hope Rory gets pushed from all the other 4 tonight re his weak brexit ideas. The citizen's panel is weird as there has already been a referendum with 34m votes. If it was just asking how we should leave then maybe, but he wants remain as an option. He should also be pushed on what is different to May's failed deal.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Stewart seems to have got an extra dozen votes due to May and her cronies wanting him as the Maybot Rebooted. He is obviously going to get absolutely panned by the members even if he gets that far, he doesn’t seem to have any ideas, just a social media presence and a criticism of a real Brexit.

I do find it quite fascinating how the party is a nest of vipers at the top level. This lot are making House of Cards look soft. No doubts Boris was right to keep a low profile till now and focus on MP shmoozing. He needs testing though so I am glad Stewart is in.

There seems a lot of talk about Boris not keeping his promises, but I have to say, apart from having a chaotic personal life and being secretive about it, I struggle to recall much in recent years to back up these accusations.

[Rick_Muller]

Does William Defoe look anything like the well known actor Willem Dafoe of Green Goblin fame?

If so, there does seem to be a likeness to Rory Stewart.

Paul, I too wanted to pull the Ringo up on it, but William is his name “Willem” is his self appointed nickname...

[Tall Paul]

Paul, I too wanted to pull the Ringo up on it, but William is his name “Willem” is his self appointed nickname...

Fair enough, does he have a self appointed different surname as well?

[Bordeauxclaret]

Gove using football in his first answer. Good Lord.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Christ the state of this lot! Gove ‘if are nearly there on negotiations on 31st October we can ask for extra time you do so in football when you want to slot home the winner.’ Like a Partridge special!

[nil_desperandum]

There seems a lot of talk about Boris not keeping his promises, but I have to say, apart from having a chaotic personal life and being secretive about it, I struggle to recall much in recent years to back up these accusations.

Rather difficult for him to have broken promises to the public in recent years, as he hasn't been in a position of authority, though his 350 million pledge was clearly undeliverable, and his stint as Foreign Secretary was littered with embarrassing and, in some cases, devastating gaffs.
However, if you want to examine his record as London Mayor:
Heathrow
Promise made: Boris Johnson ran twice for Mayor of London on a ticket of opposing expansion of Heathrow, famously saying that he would lie down "in front of those bulldozers and stop the building, stop the construction of that third runway."
Promise broken: Not only did Johnson not lie down in front of the bulldozers, but when the House of Commons vote on Heathrow expansion took place, Johnson engineered himself a foreign trip to ensure he wouldn't be able to take part in the vote. Following the trip, which cost taxpayers some £20,000, Johnson has now reportedly told Conservative MPs that he will not scrap expansion at Heathrow.

Tax cuts
Promise made: Johnson has made cutting tax a central part of his campaign for the premiership. However, in 2012, Boris also promised voters in London a tax cut saying that he would put "£445 back in your pocket by freezing the Mayoral share of council tax."
Promise broken: It later emerged that the £445 claim was based on imagined savings compared to what his campaign assumed Boris's then rival, Ken Livingstone, would have raised council tax by, rather than a promise for an actual further cut of that amount.

Rough sleeping
Promise made: When Boris Johnson became mayor he promised to totally eradicate rough sleeping on the streets of London by 2012, saying that "It's scandalous that in the 21st century London people have to resort to sleeping on the streets".
Promise broken: Rough sleeping rose by 130% in London over the course of his time in office.

Police Officers
Promise made: In 2012, Boris sent a list of nine promises to every household in London, labeled his "nine-point plan for a Greater London." Number four on the list was "Making our streets and homes safer with 1,000 more police on the beat".
Promise broken: The number of police officers in London actually fell by about 1,000 over his two terms as mayor. Pushed on his failure to increase police numbers back in 2013, Boris claimed that any suggestion he had actually promised 1,000 additional police officers was a "wilful misconstruction".

Ticket Offices
Promise made: In 2008, Boris campaigned heavily against Ken Livingstone's plans to close a number of ticket offices on the London Underground, even going so far as to sign a pledge never to close them.
His 2008 manifesto promised there would "always [be] a manned ticket office at every station."
Promise broken: Johnson went on to close all of the ticket offices remaining on the London Underground.

Tube strikes
Promise made: In 2008 Boris promised to negotiate a "no strike deal" with the Tube unions to ensure that no strike action ever took place again on the London Underground.
Promise broken: Boris did not even attempt to broker such a deal and consistently refused to meet with Tube union leaders while he was mayor. The strikes continued.

Fares
Promise made: Boris was first elected mayor in 2008 on a manifesto bemoaning the fact that Londoners "pay the highest fares in Europe," before immediately introducing a series of inflation-busting fares increases. Despite this record, Boris in 2012 promised to "bear down on fares" adding that "under my approach fares will be lower in the long term". In a debate on the BBC, he even went so far as to say that fares would "go down in an honest and sustainable way" if he was re-elected.
Promise broken: In the first year after being re-elected, Boris increased fares by on average 4.2% and then raised them in line with inflation in subsequent years. Overall the cost of a single bus fare increased by two-thirds since Johnson was first elected.

Bringing back bus conductors
Promise made: Boris's most famous pledge in 2008 was to restore the iconic open-platformed "hop-on, hop-off" buses to London. He insisted the buses had been taken off the streets by "health and safety fiends." His new version of the buses would, he promised, be staffed by a new army of old-fashioned bus conductors.
Promise broken: Boris spent hundreds of millions of pounds commissioning a new fleet of "Routemaster-style" buses. However, safety fears meant that all the promised 'open rear platforms' on the buses were fitted with doors. The promised old-fashioned bus conductors were never re-hired due to the fact that Oyster and contactless cards made their job obsolete. Instead, health and safety officers were positioned on the rear platforms. Even these were largely phased out under Johnson due to staffing costs. On most routes, at most times, the rear platforms on the new buses remained shut while buses were in motion.

Congestion
Promise made: Boris was first elected as mayor on a promise to tackle London's crippling congestion, by "re-phasing traffic lights, allowing motorcycles in bus lanes and cracking down on utility companies who dig up the roads"
Promise broken: Congestion increased significantly once he became mayor. Average vehicle delays in central London increased by 20% at peak time in the mornings and 38% at peak time in the evenings since 2008, while average speeds decreased by around 9%.

Congestion Charge
Promise made: Boris was elected on a promise not to raise London's congestion charge. He told a hustings in 2008 that "I would certainly not allow the congestion charge to go up above £8".
Promise broken: Boris raised the congestion charge in both his first and second terms.

Bike hire scheme
Promise made: "We will broker a deal with a private company to bring thousands of bikes to the capital at no cost to the taxpayer."
Promise broken: Boris's promise to bring a bike hire scheme to London "at no cost to the taxpayer" was not delivered, either in his original sponsorship deal with Barclays, or in his subsequent deal with Santander. The scheme continues to operate at a loss to taxpayers.

Fire service
Promise made: Boris repeatedly denied he had any plans to cut the numbers of fire engines or fire stations, telling the London Assembly in 2010 that there were "no plans" to remove engines. Pressed on the issue, he told Assembly Members that "I don't want to get rid of them. What's the problem?"
Promise broken: Boris closed ten fire stations across London and removed 27 fire engines from service. Fire response times rose in many areas across London.

Black taxis
Promise made: In 2012 Boris also promised to set up a "cabbies' cabinet" to deal with the concerns of London taxi drivers.
Promise broken: Plans for a formal cabbies' cabinet were scrapped in 2013. City Hall's relationship with the London taxi trade continued to deteriorate, culminating in large and disruptive protests both inside and outside City Hall.

[aggi]

There seems a lot of talk about Boris not keeping his promises, but I have to say, apart from having a chaotic personal life and being secretive about it, I struggle to recall much in recent years to back up these accusations.

I guess the 3rd runway construction for Heathrow hasn't started yet so there is still a chance that Johnson will lie down in front of the bulldozers to stop it. Given that he didn't even vote to stop it that does seem a little unlikely though.

He also did a really bad job at ending rough sleeping in London by 2012, or that time when he said he'd prove that water cannon were safe by having them blast him with them, or the one where he said he'd increase the number of police on the street and it actually fell, his promise that every underground station would have a manned ticket office (impressively he went on to close all of them), public transport fares would go down (they went up), there wouldn't be any strikes on the underground (there were), a return to bus conductors on certain routes (they didn't last long), promising not to close fire stations, that the hire bike scheme would operate at no cost to the taxpayer, ...

Apart from that though I can't recall much (but I'm sure there's more).

[Bordeauxclaret]

Fantasist strikes again.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

When do they start the drug taking round?

[jrgbfc]

Rather difficult for him to have broken promises to the public in recent years, as he hasn't been in a position of authority, though his 350 million pledge was clearly undeliverable, and his stint as Foreign Secretary was littered with embarrassing and, in some cases, devastating gaffs.
However, if you want to examine his record as London Mayor:
Heathrow
Promise made: Boris Johnson ran twice for Mayor of London on a ticket of opposing expansion of Heathrow, famously saying that he would lie down "in front of those bulldozers and stop the building, stop the construction of that third runway."
Promise broken: Not only did Johnson not lie down in front of the bulldozers, but when the House of Commons vote on Heathrow expansion took place, Johnson engineered himself a foreign trip to ensure he wouldn't be able to take part in the vote. Following the trip, which cost taxpayers some £20,000, Johnson has now reportedly told Conservative MPs that he will not scrap expansion at Heathrow.

Tax cuts
Promise made: Johnson has made cutting tax a central part of his campaign for the premiership. However, in 2012, Boris also promised voters in London a tax cut saying that he would put "£445 back in your pocket by freezing the Mayoral share of council tax."
Promise broken: It later emerged that the £445 claim was based on imagined savings compared to what his campaign assumed Boris's then rival, Ken Livingstone, would have raised council tax by, rather than a promise for an actual further cut of that amount.

Rough sleeping
Promise made: When Boris Johnson became mayor he promised to totally eradicate rough sleeping on the streets of London by 2012, saying that "It's scandalous that in the 21st century London people have to resort to sleeping on the streets".
Promise broken: Rough sleeping rose by 130% in London over the course of his time in office.

Police Officers
Promise made: In 2012, Boris sent a list of nine promises to every household in London, labeled his "nine-point plan for a Greater London." Number four on the list was "Making our streets and homes safer with 1,000 more police on the beat".
Promise broken: The number of police officers in London actually fell by about 1,000 over his two terms as mayor. Pushed on his failure to increase police numbers back in 2013, Boris claimed that any suggestion he had actually promised 1,000 additional police officers was a "wilful misconstruction".

Ticket Offices
Promise made: In 2008, Boris campaigned heavily against Ken Livingstone's plans to close a number of ticket offices on the London Underground, even going so far as to sign a pledge never to close them.
His 2008 manifesto promised there would "always [be] a manned ticket office at every station."
Promise broken: Johnson went on to close all of the ticket offices remaining on the London Underground.

Tube strikes
Promise made: In 2008 Boris promised to negotiate a "no strike deal" with the Tube unions to ensure that no strike action ever took place again on the London Underground.
Promise broken: Boris did not even attempt to broker such a deal and consistently refused to meet with Tube union leaders while he was mayor. The strikes continued.

Fares
Promise made: Boris was first elected mayor in 2008 on a manifesto bemoaning the fact that Londoners "pay the highest fares in Europe," before immediately introducing a series of inflation-busting fares increases. Despite this record, Boris in 2012 promised to "bear down on fares" adding that "under my approach fares will be lower in the long term". In a debate on the BBC, he even went so far as to say that fares would "go down in an honest and sustainable way" if he was re-elected.
Promise broken: In the first year after being re-elected, Boris increased fares by on average 4.2% and then raised them in line with inflation in subsequent years. Overall the cost of a single bus fare increased by two-thirds since Johnson was first elected.

Bringing back bus conductors
Promise made: Boris's most famous pledge in 2008 was to restore the iconic open-platformed "hop-on, hop-off" buses to London. He insisted the buses had been taken off the streets by "health and safety fiends." His new version of the buses would, he promised, be staffed by a new army of old-fashioned bus conductors.
Promise broken: Boris spent hundreds of millions of pounds commissioning a new fleet of "Routemaster-style" buses. However, safety fears meant that all the promised 'open rear platforms' on the buses were fitted with doors. The promised old-fashioned bus conductors were never re-hired due to the fact that Oyster and contactless cards made their job obsolete. Instead, health and safety officers were positioned on the rear platforms. Even these were largely phased out under Johnson due to staffing costs. On most routes, at most times, the rear platforms on the new buses remained shut while buses were in motion.

Congestion
Promise made: Boris was first elected as mayor on a promise to tackle London's crippling congestion, by "re-phasing traffic lights, allowing motorcycles in bus lanes and cracking down on utility companies who dig up the roads"
Promise broken: Congestion increased significantly once he became mayor. Average vehicle delays in central London increased by 20% at peak time in the mornings and 38% at peak time in the evenings since 2008, while average speeds decreased by around 9%.

Congestion Charge
Promise made: Boris was elected on a promise not to raise London's congestion charge. He told a hustings in 2008 that "I would certainly not allow the congestion charge to go up above £8".
Promise broken: Boris raised the congestion charge in both his first and second terms.

Bike hire scheme
Promise made: "We will broker a deal with a private company to bring thousands of bikes to the capital at no cost to the taxpayer."
Promise broken: Boris's promise to bring a bike hire scheme to London "at no cost to the taxpayer" was not delivered, either in his original sponsorship deal with Barclays, or in his subsequent deal with Santander. The scheme continues to operate at a loss to taxpayers.

Fire service
Promise made: Boris repeatedly denied he had any plans to cut the numbers of fire engines or fire stations, telling the London Assembly in 2010 that there were "no plans" to remove engines. Pressed on the issue, he told Assembly Members that "I don't want to get rid of them. What's the problem?"
Promise broken: Boris closed ten fire stations across London and removed 27 fire engines from service. Fire response times rose in many areas across London.

Black taxis
Promise made: In 2012 Boris also promised to set up a "cabbies' cabinet" to deal with the concerns of London taxi drivers.
Promise broken: Plans for a formal cabbies' cabinet were scrapped in 2013. City Hall's relationship with the London taxi trade continued to deteriorate, culminating in large and disruptive protests both inside and outside City Hall.

Yeah but apart from all that what has he ever lied about?

[nil_desperandum]

Yeah but apart from all that what has he ever lied about?

You'd have to ask his ex-wife, partners and children, I guess.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Amazing all of them are saying how they will fund all the cuts to services they voted for!!

[ElectroClaret]

What a ghastly crew. Its like a f***ing Hammer horror film.

[bfcjg]

I bet he's not even called Boris.

[Imploding Turtle]

I bet he's not even called Boris.

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

[mdd2]

There is a bit of a gang up on Rory whenever he speaks he is interrupted but he largely keeps quiet whilst the others rabbit on and he is the only one not to want to cut taxes as he believes any spare cash should go to public services.
And bloody Boris waffles and waffles and waffles. Full of ideas no idea how to achieve the end.

[bfcjg]

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson

I bet he's not even called Alexander Boris de Pfeffel.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Johnson managing to stay out of trouble which is his sole aim in the whole campaign.


Javid is the worst of an incredibly poor bunch.

[Lancasterclaret]

This is **** poor

[AndyClaret]

When do they start the drug taking round?

Looks like Rory's had them all !

[ksrclaret]

Oh my ******* good god. One of these tw@ts will be running the country very soon.

How can we possibly have got into such a mess

[Bordeauxclaret]

Even Brexit voting Tories must be appalled by this group of candidates.

Does Gove think he’s competing against Corbyn for leaders of the Tories?

[tarkys_ears]

Wow. Fantastic debate!

What a choice between such great candidates. I thought I'd default to Bojo but I'm quite liking Gove. To be honest, I'll be happy with any of them.

[Steve1956]

Looks like Rory's had them all !

Definatly bombed out of his tree.

[Spiral]

It's almost as though you can see Rory, in real time, reconsidering if he made the right choice to stand as a Tory.

Anyway, waste of an hour, that was.

[Stalbansclaret]

That was absolutely hideous.....the craven sycophancy and spurious empathy with the people asking the questions, the statement of dream goals with absolutely no substance in terms of how to achieve them, the "gizza job" failure to challenge Johnson ...just hideous.