C4 Conservative leader debate

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tiger76
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby tiger76 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:39 pm

AndyClaret wrote:You mean Abdullah the extremist ?

https://order-order.com/2019/06/19/abdu ... sequences/


Doesn't bring the BBC'S vetting process into a great light,although their argument is he hoodwinked the producers https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48687744

It was a perfectly valid question,sadly all the headlines will be about the questioner,when they should be on the responses of the candidates.

It was telling Javid laid down a commitment from all the candidates to agree to an independent investigation into Islamophobia in the Conservative party,but they could hardly refuse such a request on national TV could they.

Similar to Labour's anti-semitism issues words are one thing,let's see what actions if any the Conservatives take to root out any offensive behaviour from their grassroots members.

This sums up the state of UK politics currently,the choice is an anti-semitic Marxist Labour party,or a right-wing cabal probably led by Boris Johnson,who are determined to pursue a hard brexit come what may,and to hell with the consequences.

Thankfully parliament won't allow a no-deal brexit,and i suspect we'll finally agree a WA not very different then the current one.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby claretandy » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:41 pm

Turns out that the second man of peace is a former labour HQ staffer, the BBC knew this, but didn't think it was important to tell us. Superb balanced journalism.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Clarets4me » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Words still have meaning though, however dodgy the bloke asking the question is. I mean, without words we wouldn't have a clue about how you stand on a lot of things, but because we do, we all know.


Well, we certainly know where our friend Abdullah stands on the question of women .....

" Men are the predators, but women need to realise this and be smarter. It takes two to tango, and if you put yourself in that position, don't expect every man to pass up the opportunity to take advantage of you. Don't be alone with a man "

He also calls for the destruction of Israel and it's relocation to the United States, and compares Gaza to the Auschwitz Concentration camp ...

This man has been suspended this morning, from his job as a Deputy Head of a primary school in Gloucester, and his question to the panel was provided to him or inspired by, the Muslim Council of Britain, the versions vary. :cry:

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:49 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Well, we certainly know where our friend Abdullah stands on the question of women .....

" Men are the predators, but women need to realise this and be smarter. It takes two to tango, and if you put yourself in that position, don't expect every man to pass up the opportunity to take advantage of you. Don't be alone with a man "

He also calls for the destruction of Israel and it's relocation to the United States, and compares Gaza to the Auschwitz Concentration camp ...

This man was a Deputy Head of a primary school in Bristol, and his question to the panel was provided to him or inspired by, the Muslim Council of Britain, the versions vary. :cry:


Yes, exactly

Words mean stuff. Thanks for backing up the point I was making.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:01 pm

The way they were all sat on high backed stools, boy band-like, I half expected them to all stand up at the key change.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Clarets4me » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:07 pm

By the way, one of the other questioners, " Amad Thaker ", from London, has been revealed as a Labour member and local election Candidate in Southwark, last year. He has actually worked for the party as part of the team investigating claims of anti-semitism.

A source who worked in Labour’s complaints department at the time says Thakar was “uber partisan” and claims he was brought in by Shami Chakrabarti to help “close down” cases of anti-Semitism. It turns out that the BBC’s background checks didn’t miss the fact that Thakar had worked for Labour, according to a spokesman, they just didn’t think it was either a problem or worth informing viewers about.

Incredible !

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby ecc » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:21 pm

"Prior to tonight thought Jeremy Hunt was probably the best of the bunch and still think the same after watching most of it"

A truly frightening thought.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby claretonthecoast1882 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:22 pm

Clarets4me wrote:By the way, one of the other questioners, " Amad Thaker ", from London, has been revealed as a Labour member and local election Candidate in Southwark, last year. He has actually worked for the party as part of the team investigating claims of anti-semitism.

A source who worked in Labour’s complaints department at the time says Thakar was “uber partisan” and claims he was brought in by Shami Chakrabarti to help “close down” cases of anti-Semitism. It turns out that the BBC’s background checks didn’t miss the fact that Thakar had worked for Labour, according to a spokesman, they just didn’t think it was either a problem or worth informing viewers about.

Incredible !



Not really a shock with modern Labour considering Amad Facker is the leader

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RingoMcCartney
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Well, we certainly know where our friend Abdullah stands on the question of women .....

" Men are the predators, but women need to realise this and be smarter. It takes two to tango, and if you put yourself in that position, don't expect every man to pass up the opportunity to take advantage of you. Don't be alone with a man "


It's that dark age mind set that help bring about industrial scale child abuse in Rochdale.....Telford....Newcastle.......Oxford...Rotherham.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby ElectroClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:06 pm

Rory Stewart knocked out.

Four left.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndrewJB » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:10 pm

Who wants ll the ABB MPs vote for now?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:13 pm

Stewat actually LOST 10 votes from yesterday, rumours that Boris lent him some to knock Raab out.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Rick_Muller » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:13 pm

The country is (if anyone was in doubt) completely f#cked now. The only pragmatic and sensible option has gone - and as primarily a LibDem voter I would have backed for PM.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:18 pm

Lots of liberal tears being shed on Twitter, dry your eyes lads !

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Imploding Turtle » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:20 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Lots of liberal tears being shed on Twitter, dry your eyes lads !


Got any proof? Or are you just wanting to have a go at liberals for no reason?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndrewJB » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:30 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Stewat actually LOST 10 votes from yesterday, rumours that Boris lent him some to knock Raab out.

In terms of the tactics of taking the rightwing ground (which that yougov poll would suggest is where the Tory rank and file sit), lending Stewart votes to knock Raab out was a smart move. Withdrawing those same votes to knock Rory out narrows the argument for Bozza, but allows his competitors to move into the "left" space vacated by Rory. But now we'll see Bozza move into that space too.

My prediction is that Bozza, with the rightwing on his side, will outflank the remaining rump on the other flank too. With the leadership race in the bag, and an eye to the next general election, he'll look for opportunities to portray himself as socially progressive.

Let's see how it goes. :)

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby summitclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:43 pm

Big cheer when Rory's vote announced from me. He just wanted May's **** deal and had no idea how to get it passed. That's another none believer out and just 2 more to dump.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndrewJB » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:50 pm

summitclaret wrote:Big cheer when Rory's vote announced from me. He just wanted May's **** deal and had no idea how to get it passed. That's another none believer out and just 2 more to dump.

Cool. So who do you want? And why?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:51 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Got any proof? Or are you just wanting to have a go at liberals for no reason?


Have a look at the replies to Stewarts tweets, tears everywhere !

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby CombatClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:52 pm

summitclaret wrote:That's another none believer out and just 2 more to dump.


Believe in the bin!!!

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby elwaclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:54 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Lots of liberal tears being shed on Twitter, dry your eyes lads !


As someone who voted Brexit, I’m disappointed. While it most people’s best guess he wouldn’t win. I would liked to have got the chance for two distinct visions of Europe to form the final two. It’s now Boris orBoris light.

Still not convinced that Boris is a disaster, he might do surprisingly well. if his dad and brother stay close to guide him, neither are slouches, and tend to reign him in a bit.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby RingoMcCartney » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:59 pm

Channel 4 have cancelled tonight's Channel 4 news. They'll play sombre music for the hour instead
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby summitclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:01 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Cool. So who do you want? And why?


I want a brexiteer. Not much time for Boris or to a lesser extent Gove. However, there is no logic to having another remainer like may. I am not convinced that the HOC will allow any type of Brexit. The way labour are going we could see a revocation, which would mean an early GE and a tory/farage pact with Labour pro remain. Only 1 winner imo - a mandate for a free trade deal.

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nil_desperandum
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:07 pm

summitclaret wrote:Big cheer when Rory's vote announced from me. He just wanted May's **** deal and had no idea how to get it passed. That's another none believer out and just 2 more to dump.

You may not have agreed with him, but he actually had the only realistic plan to get the UK out of the EU this year, and if you look at the numbers he would have had a pretty good chance of delivering. It would probably have required Labour support, but it looks like the numbers were almost there, (based on the declaration of 25 labour embers today), and faced with reality at the end of Oct he would probably have got the numbers.
He's now totally correct when he says that he was the only candidate who could deliver what he promised.
None of the others have proposed anything that will deliver brexit before October 31st. There aren't going to be any new negotiations, and numerically no PM will be able to get "no deal"/ WTO through Parliament, so the log-jam will roll on, and it looks more and more like an extension would be the only means by which there could be either a new vote or a General election.
Failing this of course, then the only other option would be revoke, so where does all this leave those who still want to leave?

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nil_desperandum
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:16 pm

summitclaret wrote: Only 1 winner imo - a mandate for a free trade deal.

What free trade deal would that be, and who with?
It's been proved that Johnson was talking rubbish, wrong or lying last night when he was waffling about tariff free trade over the Irish Border, as it contravenes rules.
"He said there would be "no tariffs or quotas" because "what we want to do is get a standstill in our current arrangements under GATT 24" until a free trade deal had been negotiated.
GATT 24 is an article of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. Supporters of a no-deal Brexit say it would allow the UK to continue to trade with the EU without tariffs for up to 10 years, while the two sides were negotiating a permanent future trade agreement.
But you can't use it in this way - a trade agreement has to be agreed in principle before Article 24 can be used.
It also needs the two sides to agree - the UK can't just impose it on the EU"

Note also that it states that Supporters of a no-deal brexit are talking in terms of up to 10 years to negotiate a permanent future trade agreement.
Johnson's vision doesn't look that great when you scrutinise it, but of course, this is why his supporters are trying to remove him for the spotlight.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndrewJB » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:17 pm

summitclaret wrote:I want a brexiteer. Not much time for Boris or to a lesser extent Gove. However, there is no logic to having another remainer like may. I am not convinced that the HOC will allow any type of Brexit. The way labour are going we could see a revocation, which would mean an early GE and a tory/farage pact with Labour pro remain. Only 1 winner imo - a mandate for a free trade deal.

A free trade deal would be good. It's a lot like what we have now...
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:17 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Lots of liberal tears being shed on Twitter, dry your eyes lads !


You proper spat your dummy out yesterday when your pin up boy Raab went.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:24 pm

The "You've just got to believe in Brexit" lot are cock a hoop.

Fair enough, but who can really trust Boris Johnson?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:35 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:You proper spat your dummy out yesterday when your pin up boy Raab went.


Really ?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Billy Balfour » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:35 pm

Boris says one thing to one group of MPs and another to a different group. Each grouping know that they are being played. The reason why they go along with this is because they arrogantly think that their 'cause' will win through. At the end of the day, Boris will decide what's best for himself like he always does, certainly not the country as a whole or any political group inside the Tory party.
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:36 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Really ?


Yes, really

I don't know why you are celebrating this. Stewart promised to leave on Oct 31st. He's the only one to explicitly do that.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby aggi » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:37 pm

With the next PM being the one whose decisions will potentially direct the future course of the country for the next couple of generations it's a particularly uninspiring selection.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:48 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes, really

I don't know why you are celebrating this. Stewart promised to leave on Oct 31st. He's the only one to explicitly do that.


Javid said it last night, but hey, facts.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:49 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes, really

I don't know why you are celebrating this. Stewart promised to leave on Oct 31st. He's the only one to explicitly do that.


You are going to have to show me where i've been supporting Raab.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:52 pm

AndyClaret wrote:You are going to have to show me where i've been supporting Raab.


****, have I made the mistake of not insinuating stuff and coming straight out with it?

Silly me. Need to be more like you.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:****, have I made the mistake of not insinuating stuff and coming straight out with it?

Silly me. Need to be more like you.


Oh right gotcha, you're just making **** up again.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:58 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Oh right gotcha, you're just making **** up again.


Yup

Everyone knows you supported Tommy Robinson, but he's not running in this one

Isn't it time you got back on twitter and starting retweeting those "hilarious and not at all racist" parody accounts you are so fond of?

I can't imagine for the life of me why you left South Africa. You must have fitted in so well.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 pm

Chin up Andy!

Your Brexit that you've dreamed about is just around the corner!

Got to watch the football now, so try not to tweet anything too racist while I'm away!

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:04 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yup

Everyone knows you supported Tommy Robinson, but he's not running in this one

Isn't it time you got back on twitter and starting retweeting those "hilarious and not at all racist" parody accounts you are so fond of?

I can't imagine for the life of me why you left South Africa. You must have fitted in so well.


now you've really lost me, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndyClaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:04 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Chin up Andy!

Your Brexit that you've dreamed about is just around the corner!

Got to watch the football now, so try not to tweet anything too racist while I'm away!


Is there not some monkey tennis on, far more entertaining.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Damo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:44 pm

The vote tonight was advisory only.
It's about time everyone involved had another vote to see if they really wanted Rory Stewart to be eliminated from the race to be PM
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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby elwaclaret » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:51 pm

Damo wrote:The vote tonight was advisory only.
It's about time everyone involved had another vote to see if they really wanted Rory Stewart to be eliminated from the race to be PM


Are you kidding? It’s only in the last 30 years they’ve let the “riff raff” of party members have a say! Hundred years before any further change can be considered.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:44 pm

I don't know, these remoaners who vote Tory once in their life and think they are qualified to add to this debate. Is there anything that they would just shut up about?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 pm

Elizabeth wrote:I don't know, these remoaners who vote Tory once in their life and think they are qualified to add to this debate. Is there anything that they would just shut up about?

Hopefully the Tories regard everyone as potential voters, so they need to try to reach out to all 4 corners of the UK, and to all sections of society.
Johnson might deliver a brexit of sorts, though I doubt that he is capable of delivering the one that many of his supporters want, but electing him as leader would appear to me to be to be an act of remarkable and potentially catastrophic self-harm by the Conservative (and supposedly UNIONIST) Party, and by failing to reach out beyond their idealogically driven hard-core support they're taking an extraordinary risk.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby dsr » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:35 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Stewat actually LOST 10 votes from yesterday, rumours that Boris lent him some to knock Raab out.

Raab was knocked out because he didn't get 32 votes. If joe Bloggs MP would have liked to vote for Boris but voted instead for Stewart, how would that have contributed to Raab getting less than 32 votes?

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Imploding Turtle » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:47 pm

dsr wrote:Raab was knocked out because he didn't get 32 votes. If joe Bloggs MP would have liked to vote for Boris but voted instead for Stewart, how would that have contributed to Raab getting less than 32 votes?


This is correct. Raab was knocked out in the round where anyone who got fewer than 10% MP support was eliminated. Lending Stewart votes would have had no effect other than to keep Stewart in, otherwise both Raab and Stewart would've been knocked out.

Under previous rules it would have worked though.

The election takes place in two stages. In the first stage (shortlisting), Conservative MPs put their own names forward. In the 2019 leadership election candidates will need the support of eight MPs (proposer, seconder and six others) to stand. In the 2016 leadership election, candidates only needed the nominations of two other MPs.

MPs then vote in a series of rounds to whittle down the candidates. In each round, the candidates who don’t meet a certain threshold of votes are eliminated. In 2019, for the first ballot, this will be 5% of Conservative MPs (more than 16 MPs), and 10% of Conservative MPs in the second ballot (more than 32 MPs). For all subsequent ballots, the candidate who comes last is eliminated, until there are only two candidates remaining. In previous leadership elections, the candidate who received the least votes in each round was eliminated.

In stage two, the party membership is balloted on which of the two candidates they prefer.

The timescale for each contest is set out by the 1922 Committee. The outline timetable suggests that the first stage of the 2019 leadership contest will take two weeks, starting on the 7 June and finishing on the 20 June. Stage Two is expected to take a month, with the new leader announced in the week beginning the 22 July.

In 2016, the whole process was scheduled to take two months, but was not needed after Andrea Leadsom withdrew following the second ballot and Theresa May became leader.



https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... p-contests

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby nil_desperandum » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:54 pm

dsr wrote:Raab was knocked out because he didn't get 32 votes. If joe Bloggs MP would have liked to vote for Boris but voted instead for Stewart, how would that have contributed to Raab getting less than 32 votes?

That's stating the obvious, but in advance of the vote how could anyone know that Raab would fall just one short of the 33. It was quite feasible that Raab could have got 33 or more, and therefore "lending votes" to Stewart that then took him above Raab would actually have made sense.
(So sensible in fact that Johnson could never have instigated it himself.)

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:28 am

nil_desperandum wrote:That's stating the obvious, but in advance of the vote how could anyone know that Raab would fall just one short of the 33. It was quite feasible that Raab could have got 33 or more, and therefore "lending votes" to Stewart that then took him above Raab would actually have made sense.
(So sensible in fact that Johnson could never have instigated it himself.)



Taking Stewart above Raab would have had absolutely no affect on the leadership race. If they both got fewer than 10% then they both would have been eliminated.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby AndrewJB » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:56 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Taking Stewart above Raab would have had absolutely no affect on the leadership race. If they both got fewer than 10% then they both would have been eliminated.

The one with the fewest votes was eliminated. Lending Stewart votes (if that was what happened) helped push him above Raab.

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Re: C4 Conservative leader debate

Postby Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:09 am

AndrewJB wrote:The one with the fewest votes was eliminated. Lending Stewart votes (if that was what happened) helped push him above Raab.



One more time, it wasn't that Raab got the fewest votes that saw him knocked out, it was because he received fewer than 10% of the votes. If Stewart had also received fewer than 10% then they'd have both been knocked out.

The next round of voting is when they start eliminating the person with the fewest votes. The first two rounds saw candidates eliminated if they failed to reach 5% in the first round, and 10% in the second round.


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