C4 Conservative leader debate

[Paul Waine]

https://countryeconomy.com/ratings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are 3 major global credit rating agencies: MOODY'S RATINGS, S&P RATINGS and FITCH RATINGS

There respective ratings on following countries are:

United States: (Moody's:) Aaa, (S&P) AA+ and (Fitch) AAA
United Kingdom Aa2, AA, AA
Germany Aaa, AAA, AAA
France Aa2 AA AA

Of these 4 countries - if you are interested I think there are 144 countries in total listed on countryeconomy.com - Germany has the highest ratings possible from all 3 rating agencies; USA has 2 of the highest, and S&P rates 1 notch down from the "very best;" the UK and France are both rated the same, and for all 3 rating agencies are rated 2 notches down from the "very best."

Hope this assists, a little.

[Cryssys]

it is fiscal headroom due to the booming economy, .

Whose booming economy? Annual domestic GDP growth for 2018 was 1.4 per cent, the lowest it has been since 2012. This years not looking good either. Stop making stuff up.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Whose booming economy? Annual domestic GDP growth for 2018 was 1.4 per cent, the lowest it has been since 2012. This years not looking good either. Stop making stuff up.

Interesting observation. Actually the world economy is indeed slowing but we have done far better than forecast in the budget over recent years which is where the surplus comes from. That is fact, not opinion.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Anyway, the reason I’m posting is just to say - Conservative Hustings tonight in Manchester Central Exhibition Hall.

Boris Johnson was fantastic. Positive, funny, uplifting, visionary - a true leader. Conversely Jeremy Hunt following him was like bringing on the reserves at half time.

Boris was massively positive about the Northern Powerhouse, saying he is passionate about it and it is about sideways connections not just to London, and it is also about joining up the towns too. Hunt just talked about doing HS2 first and Iain Dale asked him if he was saying today’s youngsters will have to be pensioners before it is delivered.

I was heavily leaning to Boris before tonight, but it is now clear. He is the one hope left. He can have as many rows as he wants at home. It has to be him. He will start off with lots of opposition, then will gradually win a good chunk of Remainers over with his positivity.

[Spijed]

Anyway, the reason I’m posting is just to say - Conservative Hustings tonight in Manchester Central Exhibition Hall.

Boris Johnson was fantastic. Positive, funny, uplifting, visionary - a true leader. Conversely Jeremy Hunt following him was like bringing on the reserves at half time.

Boris was massively positive about the Northern Powerhouse, saying he is passionate about it and it is about sideways connections not just to London, and it is also about joining up the towns too. Hunt just talked about doing HS2 first and Iain Dale asked him if he was saying today’s youngsters will have to be pensioners before it is delivered.

I was heavily leaning to Boris before tonight, but it is now clear. He is the one hope left. He can have as many rows as he wants at home. It has to be him. He will start off with lots of opposition, then will gradually win a good chunk of Remainers over with his positivity.

His ideas:

London buses - waste of money
Garden Bridge - failure
Cable Car - failure
Water Cannons - failure

[Spijed]

Boris promising the earth!

[martin_p]

Boris promising the earth!

Can’t believe a word any of them say. That’s been further brought into focus today listening to Matt Hancock, who is now backing Johnson, contradict the majority of what he said a few short weeks ago when he was still in the leadership contest himself. It’s embarrassing!

[Spijed]

Boris was massively positive about the Northern Powerhouse, saying he is passionate about it and it is about sideways connections not just to London, and it is also about joining up the towns too.

And how on earth can it be paid for?

[martin_p]

And how on earth can it be paid for?

Gullibility tax?

[Imploding Turtle]

Gullibility tax?

I think you just solved world hunger.

[Billy Balfour]

Hunt saying he would willingly tell people whose companies went bust after a no-deal Brexit that their sacrifice had been necessary - has be one of the biggest gaffs I've ever seen in a leadership race, especially one where the winner becomes PM. I thought Boris was an arrogant was a prick, but Hunt sure takes the biscuit. What a pair, eh. Same goes for the none-opposition of a Labour Party we currently have here in the UK. We are so screwed.

[AndrewJB]

Anyway, the reason I’m posting is just to say - Conservative Hustings tonight in Manchester Central Exhibition Hall.

Boris Johnson was fantastic. Positive, funny, uplifting, visionary - a true leader. Conversely Jeremy Hunt following him was like bringing on the reserves at half time.

Boris was massively positive about the Northern Powerhouse, saying he is passionate about it and it is about sideways connections not just to London, and it is also about joining up the towns too. Hunt just talked about doing HS2 first and Iain Dale asked him if he was saying today’s youngsters will have to be pensioners before it is delivered.

I was heavily leaning to Boris before tonight, but it is now clear. He is the one hope left. He can have as many rows as he wants at home. It has to be him. He will start off with lots of opposition, then will gradually win a good chunk of Remainers over with his positivity.

Johnson will say anything to get elected, and worry about squaring the circle afterwards.

[AndrewJB]

...and so will Chuka Umunna:

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/ ... -than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tiger76]

Can’t believe a word any of them say. That’s been further brought into focus today listening to Matt Hancock, who is now backing Johnson, contradict the majority of what he said a few short weeks ago when he was still in the leadership contest himself. It’s embarrassing!

Hmm! i wonder what cabinet job he's been offered,this leadership contest has shown a lot of politicians up for the charlatans that they really are,career 1st,party and the country most definitely a distant 2nd.

I hope Rory Stewart doesn't renege on his vow not to take a job in Boris's government,he is one of the few to emerge with his reputation enhanced from these shenanigans.

[CrosspoolClarets]

And how on earth can it be paid for?

Just picked up this reply to me.

Despite being an accountant my response (unusually) in this instance is - who cares?

The north is in such a state that every bit helps. If it adds to the deficit let London pay it off. We deserve it. I am on a 30 year old rattler now coming back from Wimbledon, 4 carriages packed to the rafters, after just getting off Thameslink, 8 brand new 90% empty carriages.

I say again - if Boris (or whoever) funds massive northern infrastructure who cares how it is paid for?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Hmm! i wonder what cabinet job he's been offered,this leadership contest has shown a lot of politicians up for the charlatans that they really are,career 1st,party and the country most definitely a distant 2nd.

I hope Rory Stewart doesn't renege on his vow not to take a job in Boris's government,he is one of the few to emerge with his reputation enhanced from these shenanigans.

I agree with this. Boris's weakness is that he is an insecure loner who is desparate to be liked. He will try to deliver on these promises but the unpopular decisions will bring him down, in my judgement after putting a lot of useful balls in motion including Brexit. I agree none have covered themselves in glory.

[Spijed]

I say again - if Boris (or whoever) funds massive northern infrastructure who cares how it is paid for?

So you are advocating boom and bust, as that what his promises amount to?

[jrgbfc]

Anyway, the reason I’m posting is just to say - Conservative Hustings tonight in Manchester Central Exhibition Hall.

Boris Johnson was fantastic. Positive, funny, uplifting, visionary - a true leader. Conversely Jeremy Hunt following him was like bringing on the reserves at half time.

Boris was massively positive about the Northern Powerhouse, saying he is passionate about it and it is about sideways connections not just to London, and it is also about joining up the towns too. Hunt just talked about doing HS2 first and Iain Dale asked him if he was saying today’s youngsters will have to be pensioners before it is delivered.

I was heavily leaning to Boris before tonight, but it is now clear. He is the one hope left. He can have as many rows as he wants at home. It has to be him. He will start off with lots of opposition, then will gradually win a good chunk of Remainers over with his positivity.

Pigs will fly before the Tories invest heavily in the North.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Just picked up this reply to me.

Despite being an accountant my response (unusually) in this instance is - who cares?

The north is in such a state that every bit helps. If it adds to the deficit let London pay it off. We deserve it. I am on a 30 year old rattler now coming back from Wimbledon, 4 carriages packed to the rafters, after just getting off Thameslink, 8 brand new 90% empty carriages.

I say again - if Boris (or whoever) funds massive northern infrastructure who cares how it is paid for?

Has Boris been growing magic money trees?

[If it be your will]

.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

The austerity he was part of help implement? Funny how both of them now deem it unnecessary I can’t think why that would be!

[Paul Waine]

And how on earth can it be paid for?

Hi Spijed, I'm hoping Northern Powerhouse will be paid for...…. by the taxpayers earning a decent living in the Northern Powerhouse. That's the scheme of things. Create a powerful "money making machine," lots of people, making lots of good money. All sorted.

If we get this right, the Northern Powerhouse will start to pay back the investments made to "create it." It will be just like when Lancashire was the "cotton capital of the world."

I'd expect Andy Burnham to be all in favour and many, many, more.

[elwaclaret]

The austerity he was part of help implement? Funny how both of them now deem it unnecessary I can’t think why that would be!

To be fair Boris was never a supporter of austerity. A big part of their problem with May was that she’d agree with them and then announce something different. He was part of the Government, but he knew that the war payments were ending and we only had to ride out the storm for a couple of years.

[Greenmile]

Just picked up this reply to me.

Despite being an accountant my response (unusually) in this instance is - who cares?

The north is in such a state that every bit helps. If it adds to the deficit let London pay it off. We deserve it. I am on a 30 year old rattler now coming back from Wimbledon, 4 carriages packed to the rafters, after just getting off Thameslink, 8 brand new 90% empty carriages.

I say again - if Boris (or whoever) funds massive northern infrastructure who cares how it is paid for?

Funny that how things get paid for suddenly becomes less important to you when it could mean the difference between another Brexit cultist (or someone who will pretend to be for political gain, at least) getting the top job or not.

Where was this “who cares how it’s paid for” attitude when the Tories were defunding schools, libraries, police forces, hospitals etc etc?

[Greenmile]

Hi Spijed, I'm hoping Northern Powerhouse will be paid for...…. by the taxpayers earning a decent living in the Northern Powerhouse. That's the scheme of things. Create a powerful "money making machine," lots of people, making lots of good money. All sorted...

Genius. Why has nobody thought of this before? Paul Waine for PM!

/s

[Paul Waine]

The austerity he was part of help implement? Funny how both of them now deem it unnecessary I can’t think why that would be!

I thought BJ stood down as an MP when he was elected mayor of London - then returned as MP in 2015. I'm not sure we can put "austerity" (or sorting out the mess left by the previous Labour gov't) can be placed on BJ's shoulders.

Just saying, not defending him.

[Paul Waine]

Genius. Why has nobody thought of this before? Paul Waine for PM!

/s

Steady, Greenmile. That's how we will really get screwed up!

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

To be fair Boris was never a supporter of austerity. A big part of their problem with May was that she’d agree with them and then announce something different. He was part of the Government, but he knew that the war payments were ending and we only had to ride out the storm for a couple of years.

Ride out the storm? Boris was never a supporter of austerity? Almost rewriting history.

So where is all this money suddenly going to come from for Boris’s promises like the Northern Powerhouse? If these were Labour or Lib Dem’s manifesto promises they would be absolutely crucified by the Tories and the Tory press.

[Greenmile]

I thought BJ stood down as an MP when he was elected mayor of London - then returned as MP in 2015. I'm not sure we can put "austerity" (or sorting out the mess left by the previous Labour gov't) can be placed on BJ's shoulders.

Just saying, not defending him.

Nor can the global financial crisis be placed on the previous Labour govt’s shoulders.

And nor was austerity the only answer to that problem - see your northern powerhouse comment above - it was and is just an easy way of making the poor pay the price for the crash without impacting on the traditional Tory voters.

Come on, Paul. You’re better than this.

[elwaclaret]

Ride out the storm? Boris was never a supporter of austerity? Almost rewriting history.

So where is all this money suddenly going to come from for Boris’s promises like the Northern Powerhouse? If these were Labour or Lib Dem’s manifesto promises they would be absolutely crucified by the Tories and the Tory press.

All this money is the result of some number cruncher having failed to realise a major war debt repayment was ending with the yanks. So May suddenly realised she didn’t need to do it after all. Can’t remember which war think it might be Falklands. I’m not a Tory, just stating facts... the fact that all that misery was the result of them not rechecking the figures enough, should be reason enough for a government to be ousted.

[martin_p]

All this money is the result of some number cruncher having failed to realise a major war debt repayment was ending with the yanks. So May suddenly realised she didn’t need to do it after all. Can’t remember which war think it might be Falklands. I’m not a Tory, just stating facts... the fact that all that misery was the result of them not rechecking the figures enough, should be reason enough for a government to be ousted.

I fear you’d be financially crippled if my proposed gullibility tax ever became law!

[elwaclaret]

[quote="martin_p"]I fear you’d be financially crippled if my proposed gullibility tax ever became law![/

. There is nothing gullible about facts. The reason the Torres were shitting themselves so much that they brought in austerity was in large part due to outgoings in re-payments to the yanks. If anyone had bothered to look hard enough the “financial black hole” that brought the panic of austerity could have been easily ridden out without any of the draconian measures.

[Greenmile]

There is nothing gullible about facts. The reason the Torres were shitting themselves so much that they brought in austerity was in large part due to outgoings in re-payments to the yanks. If anyone had bothered to look hard enough the “financial black hole” that brought the panic of austerity could have been easily ridden out without any of the draconian measures.

And nobody bothered to look hard enough? Nobody? Really??

[elwaclaret]

And nobody bothered to look hard enough? Nobody? Really??

Nobody that mattered.

[martin_p]

Come on then, evidence me some ‘facts’, because the war debt figures I’ve seen are a pin prick in percentage of National Debt terms.

[Greenmile]

Nobody that mattered.

Even someone who didn’t matter could have shared their discovery with somebody who did matter, couldn’t they? It seems like a pretty big thing to have been missed, and even if it was just a random anti-austerity campaigner who brought this news to their local MP’s attention, you’d think they might have checked out whether it was true or not.

As it is, the timing of this revelation seems far too handy for it to be believed by anyone but the most gullible.

[elwaclaret]

Personally I think it’s a disgrace that the Tories are trying to make out austerity was necessary, and that this sudden Brexit Chest.... it is money through incompetence they had earmarked for the yanks, but the debt is paid.

[dsr]

The austerity he was part of help implement? Funny how both of them now deem it unnecessary I can’t think why that would be!

You know that the Mayor of London doesn't have a cabinet post? The position has certain influence, but not, as a rule, in respect of national economic policy.

He wasn't an MP from 2008 to 2015.

[Greenmile]

Personally I think it’s a disgrace that the Tories are trying to make out austerity was necessary, and that this sudden Brexit Chest.... it is money through incompetence they had earmarked for the yanks, but the debt is paid.

That would be a disgrace, yes.

On an entirely unrelated note, I have a bridge for sale that you might be interested in.

[elwaclaret]

Even someone who didn’t matter could have shared their discovery with somebody who did matter, couldn’t they? It seems like a pretty big thing to have been missed, and even if it was just a random anti-austerity campaigner who brought this news to their local MP’s attention, you’d think they might have checked out whether it was true or not.

As it is, the timing of this revelation seems far too handy for it to be believed by anyone but the most gullible.

Hardly a revelation, I’ll have got it from the BBC political programmes, or a documentary (I don’t do conspiracies, I deal in best evidence).

[Greenmile]

You know that the Mayor of London doesn't have a cabinet post? The position has certain influence, but not, as a rule, in respect of national economic policy.

He wasn't an MP from 2008 to 2015.

Did austerity end in 2015? Nobody told the folk queueing up at my local food bank. You’d have thought they’d have seen the news on their brand new iPhones and plasma TVs.

[dsr]

Did austerity end in 2015? Nobody told the folk queueing up at my local food bank. You’d have thought they’d have seen the news on their brand new iPhones and plasma TVs.

Well, if you want to put it that way, it's clear that Johnson's opposition to the government's long established economic policy wasn't so great that he would refuse to join the cabinet. But if you expect anyone, ever, in history, to refuse to serve as Foreign Secretary because they think the Chancellor is just a bit tight with the purse strings - then you have a very rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility.

You can equally blame Boris for Hunt's messing about with the NHS and May's dismal performance with the police. He was, after all, in the cabinet when they happened. But hardly his responsibility.

[martin_p]

Personally I think it’s a disgrace that the Tories are trying to make out austerity was necessary, and that this sudden Brexit Chest.... it is money through incompetence they had earmarked for the yanks, but the debt is paid.

What’s really surprising is that Labour haven’t picked up on this as it means the claim they left the country in a mess is now disproved. Labour probably had better accountants and knew this debt was due to be paid off!

So anyway, some evidence of this claim would be nice.

[martin_p]

Well, if you want to put it that way, it's clear that Johnson's opposition to the government's long established economic policy wasn't so great that he would refuse to join the cabinet. But if you expect anyone, ever, in history, to refuse to serve as Foreign Secretary because they think the Chancellor is just a bit tight with the purse strings - then you have a very rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility.

You can equally blame Boris for Hunt's messing about with the NHS and May's dismal performance with the police. He was, after all, in the cabinet when they happened. But hardly his responsibility.

He was a crap foreign secretary though and you can’t lay that at anyone else’s door.

[Greenmile]

Hardly a revelation, I’ll have got it from the BBC political programmes, or a documentary (I don’t do conspiracies, I deal in best evidence).

When did you find out? Did the Tories find out by watching the same documentary or BBC political programme?

In all honesty, this is the first I’ve heard of this war debt repayment ending, but if it’s significant enough to have meant austerity was unnecessary, I just can’t believe that nobody noticed until Boris (and Hunt) needed something to bribe the electorate with. The Tories may be useless, but there must be some people in the Civil Service who aren’t completely incompetent.

[elwaclaret]

What’s really surprising is that Labour haven’t picked up on this as it means the claim they left the country in a mess is now disproved. Labour probably had better accountants and knew this debt was due to be paid off!

So anyway, some evidence of this claim would be nice.

Haha research isn’t for this time of night. But it will be a matter of record what payment ended (seem to recall debt in relation to the Falklands conflict, but may be wrong on that) and the Tories started throwing money around (for them), it was all very sudden and now there’s the magic war chest?

[Greenmile]

Well, if you want to put it that way, it's clear that Johnson's opposition to the government's long established economic policy wasn't so great that he would refuse to join the cabinet. But if you expect anyone, ever, in history, to refuse to serve as Foreign Secretary because they think the Chancellor is just a bit tight with the purse strings - then you have a very rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility.

You can equally blame Boris for Hunt's messing about with the NHS and May's dismal performance with the police. He was, after all, in the cabinet when they happened. But hardly his responsibility.

I can and do blame all Tory MPs (especially cabinet members) for all (major) Tory policies. I don’t think that’s an unreasonably “rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility”. If I was an MP for a party which was unnecessarily causing crushing poverty in large swathes of the population, I’d resign my position, especially if my family were so rich I’d never need to work again anyway.

Maybe you view that as ridiculously principled (and maybe it is), but I don’t.

[elwaclaret]

I can and do blame all Tory MPs (especially cabinet members) for all (major) Tory policies. I don’t think that’s an unreasonably “rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility”. If I was an MP for a party which was unnecessarily causing crushing poverty in large swathes of the population, I’d resign my position, especially if my family were so rich I’d never need to work again anyway.

Maybe you view that as ridiculously principled (and maybe it is), but I don’t.

But you chose to forget the number of resignations there have been because they found it impossible to shift May’s set position on all kind of matters. That cabinet ministers chose to resign or battle on is a matter for them. May was trying to be Thatcher. And was nearly as crazed by the end.

[dsr]

I can and do blame all Tory MPs (especially cabinet members) for all (major) Tory policies. I don’t think that’s an unreasonably “rigid view of collective cabinet responsibility”. If I was an MP for a party which was unnecessarily causing crushing poverty in large swathes of the population, I’d resign my position, especially if my family were so rich I’d never need to work again anyway.

Maybe you view that as ridiculously principled (and maybe it is), but I don’t.

And then again, maybe Johnson didn't believe that the UK in 2015 was vastly poorer and with great swathes of "crushing poverty" compared with 2010.

[Greenmile]

And then again, maybe Johnson didn't believe that the UK in 2015 was vastly poorer and with great swathes of "crushing poverty" compared with 2010.

I’m sure he didn’t. He’s not the type to notice all the poor people around him, is he?