" Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
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" Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vote ... k_QYoh033Q
I think it's time to look at reforming the system of " Postal votes on request ", brought in by Labour in 2001 ...
I think it's time to look at reforming the system of " Postal votes on request ", brought in by Labour in 2001 ...
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Doesn’t sound like it’s just postal voting that needs looking at if this is proven.Clarets4me wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/vote ... k_QYoh033Q
I think it's time to look at reforming the system of " Postal votes on request ", brought in by Labour in 2001 ...
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I agree. My wife and I have a postal vote but would be quite capable of attending a polling booth to cast our votes. We were offered the option after Blair changed the rules and took it. I think the system is open to abuse which would be less so where attendance at a polling booth was mandatory apart from special situations with infirm people.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
There was a similar problem in Tower Hamlets mayoral elections in 2014 with the same ethnic links and of course personation was and may still be rife in Northern Ireland elections
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
The Northern Ireland problem of " personation " has largely been eliminated, as all voters have had to present a suitable ID since 1985. In the 1983 General Election, 949 voters turned up to vote only to be told they already had ! An estimated 20% of Sinn Fein votes at that Election were suspected of being fraudulent. The relaxing of the rules on Postal Votes in 2001 did not include Northern Ireland, and you still have to satisfy the " Returning Officer " that you cannot attend the Polling Station due to Employment or Education issues, for reasons of mobility.mdd2 wrote:There was a similar problem in Tower Hamlets mayoral elections in 2014 with the same ethnic links and of course personation was and may still be rife in Northern Ireland elections
Fortunately, the cry of " Vote early and Vote often " is now fading into memory, in the North of Ireland ...
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Won't get many Labour voters in favour of addressing this issue.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
There's growing evidence this is a problem.
The Pickles report in 2016 drew up many changes which have been ignored.
This is a boil on the face of British democracy which needs lancing and tackling with a number of measures.
The Pickles report in 2016 drew up many changes which have been ignored.
This is a boil on the face of British democracy which needs lancing and tackling with a number of measures.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I thought this was going to be about the Burnley/Pendle area again
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/peterboroughbyelection" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May come to nowt.....
May come to nowt.....
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
File under, but we're not going to be talking about this today.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
You should have to bring with you a form of id at a polling station.
It's daft that you just need to bring your polling card.
It's daft that you just need to bring your polling card.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
IMO the biggest mistake of the Cameron coalition from 2010 was scrapping Labour's plans for all to have identity cards.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Absolutely.mdd2 wrote:IMO the biggest mistake of the Cameron coalition from 2010 was scrapping Labour's plans for all to have identity cards.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
You don't have to bring your polling card.Spijed wrote:You should have to bring with you a form of id at a polling station.
It's daft that you just need to bring your polling card.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-call ... cat-smith/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I've been voting since 1971 and always assumed I needed my voting card. In the recent European election I was out on another errand just happening to pass the polling station and decided to see if I could vote without my card as it was still at home. No problem- just gave my name and address, no "security questions", they just checked the name and address was on the electoral roll & gave me a voting slip.
Postal votes is even more dodgy; as far back as 2005 we see "Councillors guilty of postal votes fraud that would 'shame a banana republic'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 50422.html
"Six Labour activists, including two candidates, were discovered by police at midnight in a warehouse with 275 postal votes for the city's Aston ward laid out on a table. They were confiscated by officers, who submitted them to the elections office. Against the national trend, Labour won a narrow victory in all three seats in Aston.
A handwriting expert concluded that hundreds of signatures on postal votes in Birmingham were probably forged. The court was told Labour supporters stood on main roads trying to bribe passers-by to hand over their postal ballots. Children were sent to steal papers from letter-boxes and householders were intimidated into handing over their forms.
A week later in another part of the country "Vote-rigging councillor jailed for 3 years" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82195.html
" The security of the postal voting system came into question for the second time this week as a former Labour Party councillor who rigged postal votes in a local election was jailed for three years.
The judge sentencing Muhammed Hussain, who defrauded 233 voters' postal ballot papers in a local election in Blackburn, Lancashire, said the system was "wide open to fraud".
Postal votes is even more dodgy; as far back as 2005 we see "Councillors guilty of postal votes fraud that would 'shame a banana republic'"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 50422.html
"Six Labour activists, including two candidates, were discovered by police at midnight in a warehouse with 275 postal votes for the city's Aston ward laid out on a table. They were confiscated by officers, who submitted them to the elections office. Against the national trend, Labour won a narrow victory in all three seats in Aston.
A handwriting expert concluded that hundreds of signatures on postal votes in Birmingham were probably forged. The court was told Labour supporters stood on main roads trying to bribe passers-by to hand over their postal ballots. Children were sent to steal papers from letter-boxes and householders were intimidated into handing over their forms.
A week later in another part of the country "Vote-rigging councillor jailed for 3 years" https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 82195.html
" The security of the postal voting system came into question for the second time this week as a former Labour Party councillor who rigged postal votes in a local election was jailed for three years.
The judge sentencing Muhammed Hussain, who defrauded 233 voters' postal ballot papers in a local election in Blackburn, Lancashire, said the system was "wide open to fraud".
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Check the facts - the problems are in pockets of areas and not widespread/systematic.Postal voting does increase the number who vote.
Root out the bad apple communities.
Root out the bad apple communities.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Quelle suprise!claret wizard wrote:https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-call ... cat-smith/
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
My memory is a little hazy here, weren't there lots of people whining that identity cards were either a waste of money or would infringe on their rights, human or otherwise?mdd2 wrote:IMO the biggest mistake of the Cameron coalition from 2010 was scrapping Labour's plans for all to have identity cards.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
So they're objecting against something that would help stamp out fraud?claret wizard wrote:https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-call ... cat-smith/
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I this day and age when you can log on with an Iris photo or thumb print, who can say a ID card isn’t a waste of money.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:My memory is a little hazy here, weren't there lots of people whining that identity cards were either a waste of money or would infringe on their rights, human or otherwise?
They have the tech they chose not to implement it.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Our centre back vote should undergo scrutiny, as a test!
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
The press release is over a year old, but yes they are ...GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So they're objecting against something that would help stamp out fraud?
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Stamping out fraud isn't the only objective of life. Tattooing our names on our foreheads would also help stamp out fraud; but people would still object to it. Don't automatically assume that anything that reduces fraud is an unalloyed good.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So they're objecting against something that would help stamp out fraud?
Obviously there isa the other side of the question too, ie. would a national identity card actually help stamp out fraud? In some ways it would help; in others, it would make it easier.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
First-past-the-post is more of a problem if you're after things that 'rig' the vote.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Only if that ID card if free and provided by the government, otherwise an ID becomes a tax on your right to vote.Spijed wrote:You should have to bring with you a form of id at a polling station.
It's daft that you just need to bring your polling card.
America are using voter ID laws to disenfranchise millions, that's not a road we should be heading down.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Imploding Turtle wrote:Only if that ID card if free and provided by the government, otherwise an ID becomes a tax on your right to vote.
America are using voter ID laws to disenfranchise millions, that's not a road we should be heading down.
Why couldn't they take a passport or any other form of ID that almost everyone has rather than asking for something free off the government
Last edited by claretonthecoast1882 on Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Wondered how long it would take before somebody said we should get our heads tattooed....
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I thought you people were all for taxes?Imploding Turtle wrote:Only if that ID card if free and provided by the government, otherwise an ID becomes a tax on your right to vote.
America are using voter ID laws to disenfranchise millions, that's not a road we should be heading down.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Because it's not true that "almost everyone" has a passport. 76% in England and Wales have passports and 74% in England have drivers licences. How much do you want to bet that of the 24% that don't hold passports, and 26% that don't hold drivers licences, that there is a lot of cross over?claretonthecoast1882 wrote:Why couldn't they take a passport or any other form of ID that almost everyone has rather than asking for something free off the government
There are millions of people in this country who can't afford the purpose behind passports and driver's licences, so they don't bother purchasing one. If you make voting require one of those then voting becomes a right you have to buy, and that's not democratic.
I'm fine with voting requiring an ID, but that voter ID should be entirely taxpayer funded.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Why don’t they implement thumb print on entry, online or at the booths and postal vote applications. I-pads and computers use it and it’s good enough for banks.Imploding Turtle wrote:Because it's not true that "almost everyone" has a passport. 76% in England and Wales have passports and 74% in England have drivers licences. How much do you want to bet that of the 24% that don't hold passports, and 26% that don't hold drivers licences, that there is a lot of cross over?
There are millions of people in this country who can't afford the purpose behind passports and driver's licences, so they don't bother purchasing one. If you make voting require one of those then voting becomes a right you have to buy, and that's not democratic.
I'm fine with voting requiring an ID, but that voter ID should be entirely taxpayer funded.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Imploding Turtle wrote:Because it's not true that "almost everyone" has a passport. 76% in England and Wales have passports and 74% in England have drivers licences. How much do you want to bet that of the 24% that don't hold passports, and 26% that don't hold drivers licences, that there is a lot of cross over?
There are millions of people in this country who can't afford the purpose behind passports and driver's licences, so they don't bother purchasing one. If you make voting require one of those then voting becomes a right you have to buy, and that's not democratic.
I'm fine with voting requiring an ID, but that voter ID should be entirely taxpayer funded.
How many of those with neither are old enough to vote ? You saying the have nothing with photo ID ? They have no bank account or anything ?
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
You describe three examples of where the allowing the use biometric data is a choice made by the individual for their own personal convenience.elwaclaret wrote:Why don’t they implement thumb print on entry, online or at the booths and postal vote applications. I-pads and computers use it and it’s good enough for banks.
The government already has my name and address so that I can vote, and i'm ok with that. I'm OK with them requiring that i provide identification that they have issued in order to vote (providing it's equally accessible to everyone by being free), but i don't want the government having a record of any of my biometric information. I don't mind if others don't care if their biometric data is stored by the government, but I do. So such a requirement would disenfranchise me. But worse than that it would discourage dissent among a population if ever our government becomes the type of government that would use a person's private information to either embarrass them or simply lie about them.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Itwouldn’t Have to be held by the government. Any more than existing uses.Imploding Turtle wrote:You describe three examples of where the allowing the use biometric data is a choice made by the individual for their own personal convenience.
The government already has my name and address so that I can vote, and i'm ok with that. I'm OK with them requiring that i provide identification that they have issued in order to vote (providing it's equally accessible to everyone by being free), but i don't want the government having a record of any of my biometric information. I don't mind if others don't care if their biometric data is stored by the government, but I do. So such a requirement would disenfranchise me. But worse than that it would discourage dissent among a population if ever our government becomes the type of government that would use a person's private information to either embarrass them or simply lie about them.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
It sounds fairly simple to me....you can use your Passport or Drivers Licence if you have one, or you can apply for an ID card, free gratis, for the price of a passport photo from the booth in Nelson Bus Station - that way people who don't need an ID card don't need to get one, the government won't need to make 10's of millions of them so the price is negligible, it's not mandatory so no rights are infringed, if people don't want to vote they don't have to but those who do need to bring a form of ID with them that they will either already have or can get for free.
When do I start?
When do I start?
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
You don't need photo ID to have a bank account.claretonthecoast1882 wrote:How many of those with neither are old enough to vote ? You saying the have nothing with photo ID ? They have no bank account or anything ?
And you've accidentally made another point against requiring a passport or drivers licence to vote, cross-generational poverty. If a child's parents are too poor to vote then that means they, when they come of age, will consequentially be almost certainly too poor to vote.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
FREE?duncandisorderly wrote:It sounds fairly simple to me....you can use your Passport or Drivers Licence if you have one, or you can apply for an ID card, free gratis, for the price of a passport photo from the booth in Nelson Bus Station - that way people who don't need an ID card don't need to get one, the government won't need to make 10's of millions of them so the price is negligible, it's not mandatory so no rights are infringed, if people don't want to vote they don't have to but those who do need to bring a form of ID with them that they will either already have or can get for free.
When do I start?
The membership cards that were planned would have cost hundreds to produce ( with all the security they wanted.... any national ID card would cost more that the passport.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
How could it be in any way useful as a form of ID if a copy of your fingerprint isn't held by the government?elwaclaret wrote:Itwouldn’t Have to be held by the government. Any more than existing uses.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
You still have to prove who you are to the bank, can't just rock up and say my names Mick. Interesting that if someone only watches say Sky sports channels you are fine with them being forced to pay the BBC to be allowed to do so, but think everyone should be entitled to free photo IDImploding Turtle wrote:You don't need photo ID to have a bank account.
And you've accidentally made another point against requiring a passport or drivers licence to vote, cross-generational poverty. If a child's parents are too poor to vote then that means they, when they come of age, will consequentially be almost certainly too poor to vote.
Perhaps if they are that poor having kids shouldn't be a priority, plus those who are that poor probably couldn't give a toss about voting anyway
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
elwaclaret wrote:FREE?
The membership cards that were planned would have cost hundreds to produce ( with all the security they wanted.... any national ID card would cost more that the passport.
I'm not talking about the ones that were planned, and it would be for less than 25% of the population given IT's stats above, and it wouldn't be mandatory. It's not rocket science. If you want 99% pure voting then showing up in person with photographic ID is the only way to do it without forcing Lord St Primary school to install ******* retina scans or whatever.
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
If the government wants to check that your thumbprint matches the one on the record, then the government will have to have the record. (And at the photo-election we just had, the only forms of i.d. accepted were government-issued, not private. Passport, driving licence, bus pass, disabled driver badge, that sort of thing.)elwaclaret wrote:Itwouldn’t Have to be held by the government. Any more than existing uses.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
The ID’s could the be checked in any questions of fraudulent voting. Similar to how the government don’t store the DNA taken by the police during investigations.Imploding Turtle wrote:How could it be in any way useful as a form of ID if a copy of your fingerprint isn't held by the government?
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I'd forgotten about the Bus Pass, that must surely impact on IT's figures above, which means the vast majority of the country have photo ID anyway. For those that don't then let them get one for nothing but which does nothing other than allows you to vote.dsr wrote:If the government wants to check that your thumbprint matches the one on the record, then the government will have to have the record. (And at the photo-election we just had, the only forms of i.d. accepted were government-issued, not private. Passport, driving licence, bus pass, disabled driver badge, that sort of thing.)
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Yes, you do have to prove who you are to a bank. But not with photo ID if you don't have it, or want to. I opened a Santander account online last year without providing any ID myself.claretonthecoast1882 wrote:You still have to prove who you are to the bank, can't just rock up and say my names Mick. Interesting that if someone only watches say Sky sports channels you are fine with them being forced to pay the BBC to be allowed to do so, but think everyone should be entitled to free photo ID
Perhaps if they are that poor having kids shouldn't be a priority, plus those who are that poor probably couldn't give a toss about voting anyway
And no, i've got no problem with there being a TV licence. I see it as a tax. A tax that could be implemented more fairly, but a tax nonetheless. I also have no problem with people who only use private healthcare paying taxes that fund the NHS. But i don't see what that has to do with anything.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Imploding Turtle wrote:Yes, you do have to prove who you are to a bank. But not with photo ID if you don't have it, or want to. I opened a Santander account online last year without providing any ID myself.
And no, i've got no problem with there being a TV licence. I see it as a tax. A tax that could be implemented more fairly, but a tax nonetheless. I also have no problem with people who only use private healthcare paying taxes that fund the NHS. But i don't see what that has to do with anything.
But you took some form of ID in and then had documents sent to you once you have been checked ? They didn't give you the debit card there and then. The point is when it is something you agree with then it should be chargeable the minute you don't someone else should pay. If somebody wants to vote they should have no issue with proving who they are.
There are certain countries in the EU where you have to carry a photo ID card with you at all times, we had to in Holland last year for the football as well as being told not carrying ID was an offence that could lead to arrest. You had to pay for your own ID, sometimes in life you have to pay for things if you wish to take part.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
The vast majority of the country has photo ID even before you include bus passes. It's nto about the "vast majority" having it, it's about the people who don't have it. if you make people pay for an ID that they would only use for voting then you're disenfranchising poor people who can't afford it. That's a really scummy thing to do in a democracy, and one that is being done deliberately in America. And the only reason anyone would want to implement that requirement here, after it being explained to them that it will disenfranchise the poor, is if they just don't mind poor people being disenfranchised.duncandisorderly wrote:I'd forgotten about the Bus Pass, that must surely impact on IT's figures above, which means the vast majority of the country have photo ID anyway. For those that don't then let them get one for nothing but which does nothing other than allows you to vote.
And by the way, while we're disenfranchising millions of voters, there's no evidence that voter ID does anything to prevent voter fraud.
A statistic i vaguely remember from about 2012 in the US is that out of about 110,000,000 votes there was something like 86 examples of in-person voter fraud, which is the only form of voter fraud that it would prevent. I don't know what the statistics are here, but I don't seem to have ever heard about massive cases of in-person voter fraud here that this solution would prevent.
Edit: it was 86 examples out of 196,139,871 ballots, and it wasn't just in-person voter fraud, the convictions included other instances that voter-ID wouldn't prevent.
https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/ ... tification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Show me evidence of a widespread problem that voter ID would solve and i'll change my mind on voter ID being a necessity that makes disenfranchising millions worthwhile.
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I see that the BBC has finally caught up.
"Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-48665324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-48665324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
I wonder what % of those postal votes were for LabourAndyClaret wrote:I see that the BBC has finally caught up.
"Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-48665324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This user liked this post: AndyClaret
Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Here's an example of what it takes to get a free state ID card in Wisconsin, USA. This is only needed if you don't have the most common form of ID such as a passport, drivers license, student ID, etc.
It doesn't cost anything, but it does take some effort.
https://bringit.wi.gov/how-do-i-get-free-state-id-card" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It doesn't cost anything, but it does take some effort.
https://bringit.wi.gov/how-do-i-get-free-state-id-card" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: " Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...
Is that unusual for Peterborough?AndyClaret wrote:I see that the BBC has finally caught up.
"Postal votes accounted for 9,898 of the 33,998 ballot papers received."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-48665324" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;