" Vote Rigging " Sunday Times report & comments ...

[Lowbankclaret]

One person claimed he had with two others burnt around 1000 Brexit voting papers. People got screen shots and reported it to the police.
Another care worker claimed he and other care workers had filled in postal vote for patients. That was also reported to the police.
The bookies got it massively wrong, the polls got it massively wrong.
There was a large increase in postal votes.

Labour employed a guy who had been in prison for vote rigging and he was at the count, but denied he was there, until photos of him being there were produced.

I am going to say it was rigged.

[Imploding Turtle]

In 2015 the national average for postal ballots was 21,2% so Peterborough having 29.1% postal ballots is definitely significantly higher, but that can have perfectly reasonable explanations, such as campaign volunteers being more focus on one election than on 650 elections, so it would be better to compare that 29.1% with postal vote proportions from other by-elections, in particular closely fought ones.

[Imploding Turtle]

One person claimed he had with two others burnt around 1000 Brexit voting papers. People got screen shots and reported it to the police.
Another care worker claimed he and other care workers had filled in postal vote for patients. That was also reported to the police.
The bookies got it massively wrong, the polls got it massively wrong.
There was a large increase in postal votes.

Labour employed a guy who had been in prison for vote rigging and he was at the count, but denied he was there, until photos of him being there were produced.

I am going to say it was rigged.

I'm trying to find polling on the peterborough by-election with little joy. If you have links to some/any it'd be appreciated if you could share them.

And "the bookies got it wrong" is not a credible thing to say since the bookies don't set prices, bettors do, and just because someone has a greater than 50% chance of winning something, and then they don't win, doesn't mean the probability of them winning it was "wrong". Please teach yourself how bookies prices change, and how to apply probability theory.

[AndrewJB]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the tweet by Chris Newsem highlighted on this "news" page seems to have a date of two years ago. https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/claims-o ... ial-media/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're claiming that 60% of votes came from postal ballots, which I also don't think is true,

[Imploding Turtle]

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the tweet by Chris Newsem highlighted on this "news" page seems to have a date of two years ago. https://unitynewsnetwork.co.uk/claims-o ... ial-media/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're claiming that 60% of votes came from postal ballots, which I also don't think is true,

That website isn't reliable as a source of news.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/unity-news-network/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lord Rothbury]

So there is a sizable increase in the number of postal votes mostly for the Labour candidate.There is an Asian involved with past history for vote rigging in favour of the Labour party. We now continue to say there is no conspiratory against the Brexit party.Lets have a rerun "Peoples vote " in Peterborough.

[Imploding Turtle]

So there is a sizable increase in the number of postal votes mostly for the Labour candidate.

Source?

There is an Asian involved with past history for vote rigging in favour of the Labour party.

I'm not sure what his ethnicity has to do wit... oh, right.
And was he involved? I understand he was present, and it's fair to ask why he was present, but was he actually involved in the counting?

We now continue to say there is no conspiratory against the Brexit party.Lets have a rerun "Peoples vote " in Peterborough.

Well, there's just allegations right now. If fraud is demonstrated then of course the election results should be voided.

But i'd like to know where you got information that there was a "sizeable increase" in the number of postal votes and that they were mostly for the Labour candidate.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You describe three examples of where the allowing the use biometric data is a choice made by the individual for their own personal convenience.

The government already has my name and address so that I can vote, and i'm ok with that. I'm OK with them requiring that i provide identification that they have issued in order to vote (providing it's equally accessible to everyone by being free), but i don't want the government having a record of any of my biometric information. I don't mind if others don't care if their biometric data is stored by the government, but I do. So such a requirement would disenfranchise me. But worse than that it would discourage dissent among a population if ever our government becomes the type of government that would use a person's private information to either embarrass them or simply lie about them.

I used to think bluelab was the biggest conspiracy theorist/tinfoil hat wearer on here, but I think they've got serious competition now...

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Stamping out fraud isn't the only objective of life. Tattooing our names on our foreheads would also help stamp out fraud; but people would still object to it. Don't automatically assume that anything that reduces fraud is an unalloyed good.

Obviously there isa the other side of the question too, ie. would a national identity card actually help stamp out fraud? In some ways it would help; in others, it would make it easier.

Make it easier in what way?
Apart from something else for fraudsters to make copies of, of course..

[Lord Rothbury]

Source?
It is not the counting that matters it is the form filling out.
I was only pointing out the ethnicity of the man involved... oh right
29 % of the vote against the average 21% or thereabouts


I'm not sure what his ethnicity has to do wit... oh, right.
And was he involved? I understand he was present, and it's fair to ask why he was present, but was he actually involved in the counting?




Well, there's just allegations right now. If fraud is demonstrated then of course the election results should be voided.

But i'd like to know where you got information that there was a "sizeable increase" in the number of postal votes and that they were mostly for the Labour candidate.

[No Ney Never]

You describe three examples of where the allowing the use biometric data is a choice made by the individual for their own personal convenience.

The government already has my name and address so that I can vote, and i'm ok with that. I'm OK with them requiring that i provide identification that they have issued in order to vote (providing it's equally accessible to everyone by being free), but i don't want the government having a record of any of my biometric information. I don't mind if others don't care if their biometric data is stored by the government, but I do. So such a requirement would disenfranchise me. But worse than that it would discourage dissent among a population if ever our government becomes the type of government that would use a person's private information to either embarrass them or simply lie about them.

I take it that you don't go abroad much IT?
Every country I fly to requires me to scan my passport, scan my fingers and look into a camera, this includes when I return to the UK.
It doesn't bother me either, I've nothing to hide. It's a small price to pay for the ability to see and experience the world with my own eyes instead of through a computer screen.

[Imploding Turtle]

I used to think bluelab was the biggest conspiracy theorist/tinfoil hat wearer on here, but I think they've got serious competition now...

lol. Because i dont' trust my government? You're not supposed to trust your government, you daft sod.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Is there any reason why a postal vote could not be an online vote instead? If we can pay bills online with appropriate security it doesn’t seem unrealistic to have accurate online voting.

I would agree the system is ripe for fraud - the number of hands a ballot paper goes through has to be tightly controlled.

[Imploding Turtle]

Is there any reason why a postal vote could not be an online vote instead? If we can pay bills online with appropriate security it doesn’t seem unrealistic to have accurate online voting.

I would agree the system is ripe for fraud - the number of hands a ballot paper goes through has to be tightly controlled.

Online voting would be an awful idea. Security would be a massive issue (as it is with bill paying), but if you think postal voting is open to fraud then online voting will make your head explode.

Postal vote fraud, when it occurs, is pretty small scale. Online voting will turn voter fraud into election fraud that can rig an entire country's election.
That would make it pretty funny to implement, but it's not something you should want if you want to trust your election results and the process by which they are reached.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

lol. Because i dont' trust my government? You're not supposed to trust your government, you daft sod.

Nah, because you're paranoid to **** that's why.

I've never trusted any government, from either party, they just running a big con and lining their own pockets.

[Imploding Turtle]

Nah, because you're paranoid to **** that's why.

I've never trusted any government, from either party, they just running a big con and lining their own pockets.

In what way am i paranoid? Look around the world and you see government misusing data to target dissidents. Honk Kong being the most recent example.

If this country is on the bring of electing a white nationalist government, which I think it is, I certainly don't want that government having any more information about me, or anyone else, than is absolutely necessary. That's not paranoia.

[Clarets4me]

In what way am I paranoid ? If this country is on the brink of electing a white nationalist government, which I think it is ....

I think he's finally imploded ....

[aggi]

How could it be in any way useful as a form of ID if a copy of your fingerprint isn't held by the government?

Realistically it'd more likely be held by Capita or someone ...

[Imploding Turtle]

In 2015 there was a review of electoral fraud. It found 1522 alleged offences out of 104,000,000 votes over 10 years. Tell me again how not needing ID is ridiculous.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... pdf#page42" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AndrewJB]

Just like all the allegations of students voting two female in the last election. Only one person charged.

[dsr]

Make it easier in what way?
Apart from something else for fraudsters to make copies of, of course..

If there is one single document/card that proves who you are for all purposes, then the thieves only have to steal, clone, or copy one card, and they're into everything.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

If there is one single document/card that proves who you are for all purposes, then the thieves only have to steal, clone, or copy one card, and they're into everything.

Driving licence will always be the first thing I hand over

[GodIsADeeJay81]

In what way am i paranoid? Look around the world and you see government misusing data to target dissidents. Honk Kong being the most recent example.

If this country is on the bring of electing a white nationalist government, which I think it is, I certainly don't want that government having any more information about me, or anyone else, than is absolutely necessary. That's not paranoia.

i-wouldnt-be-so-paranoid-if-everyone-wasnt-out-to-get-me.jpg (107.69 KiB) Viewed 1768 times

[aggi]

If there is one single document/card that proves who you are for all purposes, then the thieves only have to steal, clone, or copy one card, and they're into everything.

And for anything containing biometric information the issue will be much worse. You can't change your fingerprint or iris or whatever. The implications of this are only just starting to be considered.

[dsr]

If this country is on the bring of electing a white nationalist government, which I think it is, I certainly don't want that government having any more information about me, or anyone else, than is absolutely necessary. That's not paranoia.

What country are you in?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

What country are you in?

Unfortunately it isn't his beloved Scotland, with its nationalist ruling party.

[Caballo]

If this country is on the bring of electing a white nationalist government, which I think it is, I certainly don't want that government having any more information about me, or anyone else, than is absolutely necessary. That's not paranoia.

THE PLOT,


I'll leave that for you Turtle, you appear to have lost it.

[Spijed]

And for anything containing biometric information the issue will be much worse. You can't change your fingerprint or iris or whatever. The implications of this are only just starting to be considered.

You forget that your fingerprint or iris will be converted into digital information once stored in a computer, thus it's therefore still possible for someone to get hold of that info.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I used to think bluelab was the biggest conspiracy theorist/tinfoil hat wearer on here, but I think they've got serious competition now...

bluelab is more a turtlelight when it comes to the tin foil stakes

[Imploding Turtle]

THE PLOT,


I'll leave that for you Turtle, you appear to have lost it.

A very intelligent reply to my post. Well done. I like how you didn't have to think about what i said in order to make it too.

[dsr]

A very intelligent reply to my post. Well done. I like how you didn't have to think about what i said in order to make it too.

Considering that your level of discussion includes comments like "Take your meds", I don't see how you can really object to the level of reply.

[Imploding Turtle]

Considering that your level of discussion includes comments like "Take your meds", I don't see how you can really object to the level of reply.

That was in reply to someone who was replying to their other account. It wasn't an argument, it was a serious suggestion. If you were publicly talking to yourself wouldn't you want someone to help you?

[dsr]

That was in reply to someone who was replying to their other account. It wasn't an argument, it was a serious suggestion. If you were publicly talking to yourself wouldn't you want someone to help you?

I would leave diagnosis of mental illness to the professionals if I were you. However much of an expert you believe yourself to be.

[Lancasterclaret]

So have we found a solution that doesn't disenfranchise thousands of people yet?

[claretonthecoast1882]

So have we found a solution that doesn't disenfranchise thousands of people yet?

Millions not thousands

[Lancasterclaret]

Millions not thousands

Guess so, never realised that postal voting was so high

[aggi]

You forget that your fingerprint or iris will be converted into digital information once stored in a computer, thus it's therefore still possible for someone to get hold of that info.

In theory once it's digitised it should be salted and hashed. That should mean that it's impossible to go from the stored data back to the original data. As we've all seen though, what should be done isn't always what is done.

[dsr]

So have we found a solution that doesn't disenfranchise thousands of people yet?

Here's my solution.

1. Postal votes only available on request in person. People on holiday or working away can apply at the Town Hall or some other suitable council premises. Disabled people can be looked after by a council official visiting their homes.

2. Police on duty at polling stations, as they always used to be. They are trained observers and will spot many instances of personation, and they are also figures of authority who can prevent any breaches of law. Electoral officers on duty at polling stations are told to turn a blind eye.

3. Rules of secret ballot strictly adhered to. Specifically, any ballot paper which is shown to anyone after leaving the booth and before putting it in the box is disqualified; and anyone who attempts to accompany someone else into the booth (unless the other party is disabled and cannot vote independently) must be stopped from doing so.

[Imploding Turtle]

Here's my solution.

1. Postal votes only available on request in person. People on holiday or working away can apply at the Town Hall or some other suitable council premises. Disabled people can be looked after by a council official visiting their homes.

2. Police on duty at polling stations, as they always used to be. They are trained observers and will spot many instances of personation, and they are also figures of authority who can prevent any breaches of law. Electoral officers on duty at polling stations are told to turn a blind eye.

3. Rules of secret ballot strictly adhered to. Specifically, any ballot paper which is shown to anyone after leaving the booth and before putting it in the box is disqualified; and anyone who attempts to accompany someone else into the booth (unless the other party is disabled and cannot vote independently) must be stopped from doing so.

council officials visiting voters in their homes.



That won't cause further suspicion at all.

[Damo]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/po ... r-slapped-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;£1000-fine-election-watchdog

Looks like they have been cooking the books too

[SingaporeClarets]

It's a secret ballot but the serial number is still recorded against your name.

Didn't someone get arrested a few years ago because one of the candidates took objection to comments made on a spoilt ballot paper about them?

[martin_p]

Seems this was sour grapes after all. From The Guardian:

'Police investigating an allegation of the burning of ballots in the Peterborough by-election have concluded that no offences were committed, the Press Association reports. Cambridgeshire Police previously said no crimes were revealed in respect of one allegation of bribery and two relating to postal votes. The force said that it had concluded its investigation into an allegation of the burning of ballots, with no crime found to be committed. The investigation into a fifth allegation, of a breach of the privacy of the vote, is continuing. The Brexit party claimed last month that vote-rigging may have played a role in Labour’s wafer-thin victory in the by-election. Labour rubbished these claims as a “desperate attempt” to excuse a defeat, describing the allegations as “nonsense”.'

[evensteadiereddie]

So, complete ******** then. Oh dear.

[Imploding Turtle]

Seems this was sour grapes after all. From The Guardian:

'Police investigating an allegation of the burning of ballots in the Peterborough by-election have concluded that no offences were committed, the Press Association reports. Cambridgeshire Police previously said no crimes were revealed in respect of one allegation of bribery and two relating to postal votes. The force said that it had concluded its investigation into an allegation of the burning of ballots, with no crime found to be committed. The investigation into a fifth allegation, of a breach of the privacy of the vote, is continuing. The Brexit party claimed last month that vote-rigging may have played a role in Labour’s wafer-thin victory in the by-election. Labour rubbished these claims as a “desperate attempt” to excuse a defeat, describing the allegations as “nonsense”.'

It really doesn't matter. The intent of the accusations were to feed into the right's sense of victimisation which is not reliant on being supported by facts, so there's no investigation that finds no wrong-doing that will change these minds that they weren't stitched up. This was about undermining faith in our Democracy, it was never about the truth.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Undermining faith in democracy?

That's been going on for a few years now, minimum, last I checked.

[Imploding Turtle]

Undermining faith in democracy?

That's been going on for a few years now, minimum, last I checked.

Yep. But i suspect you're talking about the government not implementing a type of Brexit that wasn't promised by Vote Leave, while i'm talking about people trying to undermine faith in democracy.

[Spijed]

It's a secret ballot but the serial number is still recorded against your name.

Didn't someone get arrested a few years ago because one of the candidates took objection to comments made on a spoilt ballot paper about them?

Doubt anyone would ever be arrested as it would mean it's not a secret ballot.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yep. But i suspect you're talking about the government not implementing a type of Brexit that wasn't promised by Vote Leave, while i'm talking about people trying to undermine faith in democracy.

I know you're gagging for an argument, as always, but the type of Brexit voted for was quite simple.

To leave.

Trying to move the goalposts afterwards is still amusing.

If you don't like what the options were go whinge about it to your local MP.

[Imploding Turtle]

I know you're gagging for an argument, as always, but the type of Brexit voted for was quite simple.

To leave.

Trying to move the goalposts afterwards is still amusing.

If you don't like what the options were go whinge about it to your local MP.

Yes. moving the goalposts is indeed amusing. Which is why I find it funny that Farage and his sort who campaigned for a soft brexit in order to win the referendum are now saying that the only acceptable Brexit is a no deal brexit.

[tiger76]

I'm sure Farage advocated a Norway style brexit,which most people would accept,and would likely pass though parliament,if the hard brexiteers continue to push for a no-deal,it's much more likely that they'll cause a no brexit outcome.