VAR

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South West Claret.
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Re: VAR

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:11 pm

NottsClaret wrote:See how next season pans out but I’m already not that arsed about watching games with VAR.

Hopefully it settles down but just watching normal football at local non-league genuinely feels more appealing now than this pixel perfect sequence of TV clips.
I tend to agree with Notts on how football at the top level has and is going, the stage managed tripe we have to put up with on match days gets worse as the seasons go by.

Much sooner go to a local non league game these days with costs minimal compared with the so called top league games.

Clarets4me
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Re: VAR

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I hope we or France offer that referee asylum because she's not going to survive back in DPRK after that embarrassment.
France is the nearest safe Country for the Referee, " I T " .... imagine her face if she accepted asylum in the United Kingdom, and was offered a two bed terrace in Glasgow !

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Re: VAR

Post by KRBFC » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:42 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:On the plus side there has been almost zero grappling in the penalty areas.
I like the grappling in the penalty areas, the dirty little tricks of a defender, some of the very best in the world like Godin, Chiellini, Pepe and Ramos have mastered the art of it. I like the physical duels all over the pitch, nothing better than seeing a big physical centre forward and central defender go at it, I really liked Diego Costa at Chelsea for that reason but I know many others don't.

RammyClaret61
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Re: VAR

Post by RammyClaret61 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:16 am

NottsClaret wrote:See how next season pans out but I’m already not that arsed about watching games with VAR.

Hopefully it settles down but just watching normal football at local non-league genuinely feels more appealing now than this pixel perfect sequence of TV clips.
It’s happened to me. The Australian league have had Var now for 3 years. I don’t watch any games anymore. I even canceled my Foxtel last year. I still watch our games when I can. But VAR is not the answer. It’s created a whole new set of problems. Players are now going down more often in the hope of a review spotting something. Then you’ve got the decisions that are blatantly incorrect, a player runs onto a through ball, clean through, flag goes up he stops, replays show he was onside, you can’t correct that.
They’ve created a massive sledgehammer to crack a nut, and completely forgot about the contents.

Tricky Trevor
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Re: VAR

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 am

RammyClaret61 wrote:Players are now going down more often in the hope of a review spotting something. Then you’ve got the decisions that are blatantly incorrect, a player runs onto a through ball, clean through, flag goes up he stops, replays show he was onside, you can’t correct that.
These are two situations that are a massive plus for VAR.
It’s pointless diving as VAR will out you and the linos have been told not to flag the offsides as the goal would be chalked off on review. The latter being the situation I was most in favour of VAR over. As you say you never get that moment back.

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Re: VAR

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:18 am

All teams are told the rules prior to the tournament
Dumb keeper is told before penalty is taken if you come off your line and save it then it will be re-taken
Keeper doesn't listen and does exactly this and to peoples amazement it is re-taken.

Being 3-0 up with 15 to go and chucking it is a new one even for the the constant losers.

Haven't watched any of the tournament but can't imagine there will be a funnier moment than the woman being shown in the sky sports studio last night covering the game. Womens football might not be very good but the people in and around it are good value.

dougcollins
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Re: VAR

Post by dougcollins » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:57 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:These are two situations that are a massive plus for VAR.
It’s pointless diving as VAR will out you and the linos have been told not to flag the offsides as the goal would be chalked off on review. The latter being the situation I was most in favour of VAR over. As you say you never get that moment back.

You may say that but I bet there's a load more pens given for minimal contact that wouldn't have before- basically a dive 'with contact'. It's already happened under VAR.
Just watch the big six get more pens than ever.

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Re: VAR

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:03 am

The Scottish keeper was also off her line for the re-take.
I do find the booking a bit harsh though, although it is the new law. I presume it’s for denying a GSO but they get the re-take.
Like all changes it’ll take some bedding in.

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Re: VAR

Post by dsr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:31 am

claretonthecoast1882 wrote:All teams are told the rules prior to the tournament
Dumb keeper is told before penalty is taken if you come off your line and save it then it will be re-taken
Keeper doesn't listen and does exactly this and to peoples amazement it is re-taken.

Being 3-0 up with 15 to go and chucking it is a new one even for the the constant losers.

Haven't watched any of the tournament but can't imagine there will be a funnier moment than the woman being shown in the sky sports studio last night covering the game. Womens football might not be very good but the people in and around it are good value.
But she didn't come off the line. At least, VAR is inconclusive - her toe is on the ground in front of the line, and her heel is in the air possibly above the goal line, possibly not. The ref was apparently convinced beyond possibility of doubt that the heel was entirely in front of the line, in spite of lack of evidence.

It's all very well suggesting that one foot should be planted behind the line to ensure the save won't be disallowed, but then you wouldn't save many if you did that.
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Re: VAR

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:31 am

Tricky Trevor wrote:The Scottish keeper was also off her line for the re-take.
I do find the booking a bit harsh though, although it is the new law. I presume it’s for denying a GSO but they get the re-take.
Like all changes it’ll take some bedding in.

It's a pity that she didn't save the second penalty, VAR review showing she was off her line fractionally, therefore a second retake and a second caution leading to a dismissal. In this case, Scotland could have brought a sub keeper on because they had only used 2 subs.
It could be interesting in penalty shoot-outs this season with VAR watching keepers intensely.
Just seen dsr's post ----under the new Law a keeper is not allowed to stand behind the line unless one foot is touching the line. Having said that I don't think that a keeper would think anything other than a forward movement would be helpful.

Nothing said about encroachment in any of the penalty situations and there has been a lot which should have been seen.
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Re: VAR

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:15 am

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:It's a pity that she didn't save the second penalty, VAR review showing she was off her line fractionally, therefore a second retake and a second caution leading to a dismissal. In this case, Scotland could have brought a sub keeper on because they had only used 2 subs.
It could be interesting in penalty shoot-outs this season with VAR watching keepers intensely.
Just seen dsr's post ----under the new Law a keeper is not allowed to stand behind the line unless one foot is touching the line. Having said that I don't think that a keeper would think anything other than a forward movement would be helpful.

Nothing said about encroachment in any of the penalty situations and there has been a lot which should have been seen.
I posted this on Saturday and there was no VAR. The strangest shoot out I’ve ever seen.

Mexico and Ireland play out a boring 0-0.
Straight to pens. Penalty spot biggest I’ve ever seen. Would take 3 balls.
4-3 Mexico, final kick to come. Ref makes Irish lad re-spot the ball 3 times. Lad buries it, no good. He says he hadn’t blown his whistle. Lad has it saved. You have to feel for him.

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Re: VAR

Post by basil6345789 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:44 am

Womens' football has wasted no time in moaning about referees.
VAR is supposed to minimise the human element of refereeing and help foolproof it.
Then what would they have to moan about? They're only happy when they're moaning.

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Re: VAR

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:56 pm

basil6345789 wrote:VAR is supposed to minimise the human element of refereeing and help foolproof it.
Who do you think is looking at the telly, if not a human?

The most farcical thing about VAR - and it's a competitive field - is how people still talk about bringing 'the technology' in. It's a TV. We've had them since the 50s. Goal line technology is impressive. The hawkeye thing at Wimbledon is excellent. A man in a hut watching telly and contradicting the ref while 30,000 people sit around waiting doesn't feel like a great leap forward.
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Re: VAR

Post by IanMcL » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:32 pm

VAR last night, at the Scotland match, was appalling. Many mins lost and none added, to restore.

aggi
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Re: VAR

Post by aggi » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:38 pm

NottsClaret wrote:Who do you think is looking at the telly, if not a human?

The most farcical thing about VAR - and it's a competitive field - is how people still talk about bringing 'the technology' in. It's a TV. We've had them since the 50s. Goal line technology is impressive. The hawkeye thing at Wimbledon is excellent. A man in a hut watching telly and contradicting the ref while 30,000 people sit around waiting doesn't feel like a great leap forward.
This is the crux of the issue. They're trying to make subjective issues objective.

I've no issue with technology being used for offsides if it can be implemented seamlessly like goal-line technology: you're either on or off side with no debate. Other decisions are still interpretation though, just someone else is doing the interpreting.
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Re: VAR

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:59 pm

VAR is absolute nonsense.

With the tech available, offside is a rubbish also.

Using some fairly fag packet maths....just to illustrate a point.

An HD camera records at around 24 frames per second.

A decent standard footballer, will run at a rate of around 833 cm per second so between frames it's possible that he has moved around 34cm, which is around the length of a size 10 shoe, yet we are now calling and justifying offsides based upon "his toe is offside".

I've called referees and liners but leave them to it. The technology just isn't there for VAR to exist.

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Re: VAR

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:03 pm

only issue with VAR is they lack an understanding of what clear and obvious is, a keeper being 5 inches off the line for a penalty or a guy being 3 inches offside is not clear and obvious. The Wilson disallowed goal for England was clear and obvious as he had fouled a player earlier in the move to get space. It's not even ******* difficult

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Re: VAR

Post by BurnleyFC » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:18 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:******* hell, it's even worse!

Here's a freeze frame from the game. This is Scotland in the middle of making a substitution and the referee has just blown the whistle for the free kick to be taken. You can see the Argentine player begin her run up in the background.

This is the free kick that leads to the penalty.

Image
It’s women’s football.

File alongside under 5’s. Nobody cares, it’s the taking part that counts.
Last edited by BurnleyFC on Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiger76
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Re: VAR

Post by tiger76 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:20 pm

No VAR on keeper's encroaching next season,at least not initially,this could change over time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48703852

I'm curious if the officials will be brave enough to give a VAR decision against one of the favourites during the KO stages.

Hypothetical situation USA-France QF,0-0 with a couple of minutes to go and one of the teams vehemently appeals for a spot-kick.

Or equally any of England's latter stage games if they make it that deep into the tournament.

I noticed watching the England-Japan match last night,that both sets of defenders where ensuring their hands weren't raised,in fact at one point Lucy Bronze placed her arms behind her back when the winger advanced into the penalty area for Japan,clever wingers/full backs will cotton on to this and use it to their advantage.

You have to have sympathy for the Scots,their 1st WC,and ever VAR decision went against them.particularly in the Japan game,stonewall handball for a pen,and bizarrely not given by the on-field ref,or by VAR which is why the whole system was introduced in the first place,to correct clear and obvious errors.

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Re: VAR

Post by arise_sir_charge » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:28 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:only issue with VAR is they lack an understanding of what clear and obvious is, a keeper being 5 inches off the line for a penalty or a guy being 3 inches offside is not clear and obvious. The Wilson disallowed goal for England was clear and obvious as he had fouled a player earlier in the move to get space. It's not even ******* difficult
Thing is, not many off sides are clear and obvious, especially not when you factor in the margin for error that should be applied in relation to pin pointing exactly when a ball left a players foot etc.

The Lingard one was a perfect example. That goal should have stood, despite VAR. Lots of folk saying "well it's the right decision"....no way on earth, with the tech available can you be sure Lingard is offside for that goal.
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Re: VAR

Post by ClaretTony » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:37 pm

Mike Riley has confirmed that VAR will not intervene in Premier League games for goalkeepers coming off the line at a penalty. It will be left to the match officials.

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Re: VAR

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:Thing is, not many off sides are clear and obvious, especially not when you factor in the margin for error that should be applied in relation to pin pointing exactly when a ball left a players foot etc.

The Lingard one was a perfect example. That goal should have stood, despite VAR. Lots of folk saying "well it's the right decision"....no way on earth, with the tech available can you be sure Lingard is offside for that goal.
so then they should give the goal, it's simple, if there is any part of the player that is level just give the goal - people watch football to see goals not have them ruled out. Offside rule needs changing for VAR, more goals will be given and the process would speed up overnight

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Re: VAR

Post by box_of_frogs » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:43 pm

IanMcL wrote:VAR last night, at the Scotland match, was appalling. Many mins lost and none added, to restore.
At least the Scottish lasses got to the finals, unlike their male counterparts!

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Re: VAR

Post by aggi » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:48 pm

tiger76 wrote:I noticed watching the England-Japan match last night,that both sets of defenders where ensuring their hands weren't raised,in fact at one point Lucy Bronze placed her arms behind her back when the winger advanced into the penalty area for Japan,clever wingers/full backs will cotton on to this and use it to their advantage.
Dyche has said that Burnley have been working on their body shape when defending which I assume means hands by your sides at all times in the box.

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Re: VAR

Post by dsr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:50 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:only issue with VAR is they lack an understanding of what clear and obvious is, a keeper being 5 inches off the line for a penalty or a guy being 3 inches offside is not clear and obvious. The Wilson disallowed goal for England was clear and obvious as he had fouled a player earlier in the move to get space.
They could set a rule of thumb for officials - if they have watched it twice, with freeze frame if applicable, and still aren't sure, then it wasn't "clear and obvious".
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IanMcL
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Re: VAR

Post by IanMcL » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:02 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:so then they should give the goal, it's simple, if there is any part of the player that is level just give the goal - people watch football to see goals not have them ruled out. Offside rule needs changing for VAR, more goals will be given and the process would speed up overnight
Imagine you are at the back of the penalty area, for a free kick. Ball crossed....you lean forward to be able to see ball coming and the pundits all shout offside, as your torso is ahead of the defender!

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Re: VAR

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:11 pm

IanMcL wrote:Imagine you are at the back of the penalty area, for a free kick. Ball crossed....you lean forward to be able to see ball coming and the pundits all shout offside, as your torso is ahead of the defender!
that's why it needs changing to what I said then it's simple and straightforward and the above example is no issue
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Re: VAR

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:19 pm

aggi wrote:Dyche has said that Burnley have been working on their body shape when defending which I assume means hands by your sides at all times in the box.
It's true. Here's the new defending coach.

Image

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Re: VAR

Post by Darnhill Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:05 pm

‘Play stopped on 85.50 and didn’t resume until and play resumed after the penalty was scored on 93.45 give or take a few seconds’.

Well that is 4.10 seconds as a game lasts for 90 minutes. Plus the game must have restarted before the penalty was retaken not after it was scored. I do see that not enough game time added but not quite by as much as you may have first thought. Plus there must have been some other added time due. But the overlap beyond 90 minutes is not as it first seems

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Re: VAR

Post by Tricky Trevor » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:41 pm

arise_sir_charge wrote:The Lingard one was a perfect example. That goal should have stood, despite VAR. Lots of folk saying "well it's the right decision"....no way on earth, with the tech available can you be sure Lingard is offside for that goal.
What annoyed me most about that decision is normally you see the full half with the player passing the ball in contact with it. The only view I saw was a tight shot across the back 4 with red and blue lines on the pitch. No reference to the pass.

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Re: VAR

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:01 pm

Darnhill Claret wrote:‘Play stopped on 85.50 and didn’t resume until and play resumed after the penalty was scored on 93.45 give or take a few seconds’.

Well that is 4.10 seconds as a game lasts for 90 minutes. Plus the game must have restarted before the penalty was retaken not after it was scored. I do see that not enough game time added but not quite by as much as you may have first thought. Plus there must have been some other added time due. But the overlap beyond 90 minutes is not as it first seems
Yes. play did indeed resume when the penalty kick was taken and stopped when the ball crossed the line for the goal. I honestly didn't think anyone would have a problem with me omitting that approximately one second of game time.

And yes 4 minutes plus stoppage time was replaced with a single minute of stoppage time. Assuming a minimum of 3 minutes stoppage time without the penalty incident that means 7 minutes of game time was replaced with 1 minute of stoppage time.
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Re: VAR

Post by Vegas Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:13 pm

dsr wrote:They could set a rule of thumb for officials - if they have watched it twice, with freeze frame if applicable, and still aren't sure, then it wasn't "clear and obvious".
I think this is a great idea

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Re: VAR

Post by Darnhill Claret » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:17 pm

I agreed it was shorter than it should have been.

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