London again

[AndrewJB]

Paramedics are trained to first response, they do hold qualifications . The same cant be said of teaching assistants or specials. Theres no way of saying it without sounding as if I'm pulling them down, and that isnt what I'm trying to do. Anyone who puts himself out to try and help his community should be applauded, but the truth is specials dont have the training, the power or the authority that genuine Police have. They are a visible presence on the street, but everybody knows they are specials, lots of people will know them from their other lives, and maybe wrongly, treat them accordingly.
Teaching assistants arent teachers
Specials aren't Police officers
Paramedics arent doctors, but they're not supposed to be, they are trained to do a specialist job.

Teaching assistants and Community Support Officers do great work within their limited remit. Some schools now also use Academic Assistants (degree educated TAs),but I agree with you that teachers and police officers are what they are, and we shouldn’t become so parsimonious we replace them with TAs and community support officers.

[Lancasterclaret]

Jesus the libs are rubbing each others backs with "likes" in some volume on this thread.

Guess this must be a really touchy subject for them.

Come on everyone, CM needs a virtual hug in the terms of a "like".

[Colburn_Claret]

Teaching assistants and Community Support Officers do great work within their limited remit. Some schools now also use Academic Assistants (degree educated TAs),but I agree with you that teachers and police officers are what they are, and we shouldn’t become so parsimonious we replace them with TAs and community support officers.

I'm just glad that you understand my point, because it's only a matter of time before Lancs or IT accuse me of slagging off TAs and Specials. Which is neither true, or the point.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm just glad that you understand my point, because it's only a matter of time before Lancs or IT accuse me of slagging off TAs and Specials. Which is neither true, or the point.

Why would I do that?

You've read Tsar Bomba's post (an expert in the field) and ignored it because you think the police all drive around in souped up cars and that kids need corporal punishment.

There is zero point talking to you about anything that isn't a Daily Mail letters page.

[Imploding Turtle]

I'm just glad that you understand my point, because it's only a matter of time before Lancs or IT accuse me of slagging off TAs and Specials. Which is neither true, or the point.

Oh look. There you are again, pretending others are going to criticise you for something you haven't done just so that you can criticise them for it. It's kinda like you don't really have a good reason to criticise us, but you really want to, so you're just making up a reason.

All i think is that people who think that austerity isn't at all responsible for a rise in crime are idiots. And that people who think those of us who accept that are saying that austerity is an excuse for crime are even bigger idiots.

[alwaysaclaret]

So the answer is stop and search and spending less time talking about Brexit and Trump.

Seems an easy fix.

Would be a step in the right direction, but clearly this has happened over a generation and will quite likely take at least a generation to fix, unfortunately.

[Colburn_Claret]

Oh look. There you are again, pretending others are going to criticise you for something you haven't done just so that you can criticise them for it. It's kinda like you don't really have a good reason to criticise us, but you really want to, so you're just making up a reason.

All i think is that people who think that austerity isn't at all responsible for a rise in crime are idiots. And that people who think those of us who accept that are saying that austerity is an excuse for crime are even bigger idiots.

Austerity is just a new buzz word for something that has been going on for decades, cuts in public services. This phenomena although sad, is not the cause of rising crime, although I'm sure it doesn't help. The main reason is the breakdown of community. A social network provided by neighbourhoods all over the country, to look out for one another. You add to it a generation that have grown up feeling entitled to what the older generations were taught you had to work to earn, and the mix spills out angry young people, who have no respect for other people, for the law, for themselves. There are hundreds of different things that have added to this position, and a lack of Police, especially on the beat is certainly one of them. But to cancel austerity and throw money at it, would solve nothing. The die is cast for these people, as I've said it could take 40 years to get back to where we were.
So you can spout on about it being austerities fault as much as you like , you'd still be wrong. The problem you have with this, and many other topics, is you focus on one thing and cling on to it like a dog with a bone, you never try to step back and see the bigger picture.

[Colburn_Claret]

Why would I do that?

You've read Tsar Bomba's post (an expert in the field) and ignored it because you think the police all drive around in souped up cars and that kids need corporal punishment.

There is zero point talking to you about anything that isn't a Daily Mail letters page.

I never ignored Tsar Bombas post at all. I think what he is trying to do is wonderful, not everybody is willing to give up their time to try and help the community. But just because Specials wear a blue uniform, yellow hi vis vests with blue and white checks on, they still arent policemen , which is what we need. They could have just as easily been given an orange uniform, changed their title to Neighbourhood Friends, and done the same worthy task as they do now, and then everybody would understand that they are not policemen. Every little helps so I do applaud them all, but it isnt enough to solve the problems we face today.

[Imploding Turtle]

Austerity is just a new buzz word for something that has been going on for decades, cuts in public services. This phenomena although sad, is not the cause of rising crime, although I'm sure it doesn't help. The main reason is the breakdown of community. A social network provided by neighbourhoods all over the country, to look out for one another. You add to it a generation that have grown up feeling entitled to what the older generations were taught you had to work to earn, and the mix spills out angry young people, who have no respect for other people, for the law, for themselves. There are hundreds of different things that have added to this position, and a lack of Police, especially on the beat is certainly one of them. But to cancel austerity and throw money at it, would solve nothing. The die is cast for these people, as I've said it could take 40 years to get back to where we were.
So you can spout on about it being austerities fault as much as you like , you'd still be wrong. The problem you have with this, and many other topics, is you focus on one thing and cling on to it like a dog with a bone, you never try to step back and see the bigger picture.

How is it that you can see that the consequences of austerity leads to an increase in crime and yet still refuse to admit that austerity causes increased crime.

[AndrewJB]

I never ignored Tsar Bombas post at all. I think what he is trying to do is wonderful, not everybody is willing to give up their time to try and help the community. But just because Specials wear a blue uniform, yellow hi vis vests with blue and white checks on, they still arent policemen , which is what we need. They could have just as easily been given an orange uniform, changed their title to Neighbourhood Friends, and done the same worthy task as they do now, and then everybody would understand that they are not policemen. Every little helps so I do applaud them all, but it isnt enough to solve the problems we face today.

In my neighbourhood the benefits cap has forced a lot of families to move further out of London in order to find affordable rent, thus tearing the very social fabric you were talking about. Add to this the closure of libraries and other community social spaces, and the feeling of isolation for people of all ages is more palpable. Add to this mix the trimming down of police numbers, and you can understand how things took a turn for the worse. And at the root of it all is government cuts.

[Tall Paul]

I never ignored Tsar Bombas post at all. I think what he is trying to do is wonderful, not everybody is willing to give up their time to try and help the community. But just because Specials wear a blue uniform, yellow hi vis vests with blue and white checks on, they still arent policemen , which is what we need. They could have just as easily been given an orange uniform, changed their title to Neighbourhood Friends, and done the same worthy task as they do now, and then everybody would understand that they are not policemen. Every little helps so I do applaud them all, but it isnt enough to solve the problems we face today.

You must've ignored it, or at least not read it properly, if you think he's a Special.

[Colburn_Claret]

How is it that you can see that the consequences of austerity leads to an increase in crime and yet still refuse to admit that austerity causes increased crime.

Because austerity has been with us for ever. There was austerity in post war Britain. There was massive austerity under the witch Thatcher, but we didn't have this massive problem of knife crime that we have today. We didn't have the massive breakdown in communities that we have today, people didn't have a lot, but they stuck together.
Particularly talking about the young, we didn't have youngsters who expected something for nowt. The breakdown in Society isnt going to end because you throw more money at it, if only it was that simple. The loss of youth clubs, libraries, community centres of course it plays a part, as I've said lots of times, and more money could turn that round, but it isnt going to take the knives out of these kids hands because they are a different breed from the rest of us.
I made lots of mistakes as a kid, lots and lots. I have rap sheet as long as my arm, been to court countless times and even served time. It wasnt because I had bad parents they were great, I didn't have bad teachers. It wasnt a lack of Police and it certainly wasnt because of austerity. It was because I was an arsehole. Very clever, no sodding common sense at all. I dont blame anyone for my mistakes but me. Yet too many people want to make excuses for these kids carrying knives. Place the blame and the responsibility on someone else. The truth is despite all the issues they face today, they need to look in the mirror to find the problem.
I'm in no way defending austerity, or denying it, but I dont put it down to creating the problems caused by some of today's morons.
When I say these bastards need jailing, I'm talking from experience. I only served 21 days. 21 days in a cell for 23 hours a day. An hours exercise and slopping out. It didn't frighten me, I was tougher than that, but it was the longest 3 weeks of my life, it felt like 3 years. The most boring, mind numbingly, waste of time, my time. I didn't go home telling friends it was a doddle, I could do it my head. I told them I was never, ever going back. It taught me a lesson, straightened me out. If prison today wasnt so cushy, if they were made to stay in a cell 23 hours a day, if more offenders were sent to experience it, the country wouldn't be perfect, but it would be a lot better off than it is today.

[Imploding Turtle]

... The loss of youth clubs, libraries, community centres of course it plays a part, as I've said lots of times, and more money could turn that round, but it isnt going to take the knives out of these kids hands because they are a different breed from the rest of us. ...

No, it's not. But what it will do is stop kids putting knives in their own hands. Which is exactly what these things were doing before their funding was cut and they had to close. This is a consequence of austerity.

Are you so desperate not to agree with the rest of us that you will make the exact same point we make and then still claim to disagree with us?

[Imploding Turtle]

... Yet too many people want to make excuses for these kids carrying knives. ...

How many different ******* ways does it have to be explained to you that no **** is making excuses for anyone? Are you literally this ******* stupid that even when told that no one is excusing knife crime, and that even when it is explained to you in terms so simple that the only way to make them simpler would require crayons, that you still are too stupid to get it into that smooth brain of yours that no one is excusing knife crime?

You cannot be reasoned with while you continue to believe this bullshit. There's no point discussing it with you in good faith is you persist with this discussion is such obviously bad faith.

[Wile E Coyote]

youth clubs ???? yes, that'll work ! why didn't anyone think of that before.

[Imploding Turtle]

youth clubs ???? yes, that'll work ! why didn't anyone think of that before.

If a kid is participating in a youth club are they more likely or less likely to be simultaneously committing knife crime?

[Greenmile]

Who else was surprised to learn that salt-of-the-earth, things-were-much-better-in-my-day, kids-today-don’t-know-they’re-born, string-em-all-up, Colburn Claret is an ex-con?

[Imploding Turtle]

Who else was surprised to learn that salt-of-the-earth, things-were-much-better-in-my-day, kids-today-don’t-know-they’re-born, string-em-all-up, Colburn Claret is an ex-con?

Which is a surprise since back in his day communities stuck together which prevented crime, yet apparently today communities don't stick together and that causes crime.

But it's not making excuses for criminals when you say crime is rising because of a lack of community, though. Unlike when you say that austerity increases crime (in part as a result of closing community centres), which is totally different and is definitely making excuses for criminals.

[Wile E Coyote]

If a kid is participating in a youth club are they more likely or less likely to be simultaneously committing knife crime?

these are areas of high crime, seemingly jammed to the rafters with idiots intent on replicating amerian style ghetto behaviour. They talk the same, dress the same and for a chosen few it looks like huge profits can be made from criminality mainly through drug supplying.
Youth clubs will sound about as alluring to these people as a picnic with their auntie in margate.

[Rileybobs]

You know when loads of people are pointing out how stupidly wrong you are, would your natural reaction not be to think maybe I'm stupidly wrong?

[Lancasterclaret]

Rileybobs has a point it has to be said.

[Lord Rothbury]

No he doesn’t as loads of people agree with him.Lets go with the starting up youth clubs and re opening the libraries and see where that gets us.

[Lancasterclaret]

Fair play to Colburn btw for turning his life around as it can't have been easy, but that doesn't mean what worked for him will work for everybody, and the figures suggest it doesn't.

[aggi]

You know when loads of people are pointing out how stupidly wrong you are, would your natural reaction not be to think maybe I'm stupidly wrong?

Is this the first time you've been on UTC?

[aggi]

I would have said it's not the money, but how its spent.
From over a decade in the NHS, I watched an institution that was run by a Senior Surgeon, Doctor and a Matron, get overrun with secretaries and pen pushers. Lots more money spent on the NHS, but no extra nurses, no extra beds.
I imagine the Police went through something similar in the 70s onwards. Everything written in triplicate, and Bobbies going from the beat to a desk.
There are other factors, culminating with our crap system of justice. Many years ago now I read of a young lad going before the magistrates for his 20th ASBO. Now common sense to me says that if the first 19 ASBOs didn't deter him, the 20th was a waste of time as well. Yet everytime he broke the law, some Police Officer had to attend the scene, had to type the report (in triplicate), had to attend the magistrates to give testimony, and for what. That isnt making the best use of a PO time, and the system at present does nothing to improve it. ECJ, Human Rights, our own policies and procedures, and the left wing zealots, combine to make a Coppers job far more difficult and time consuming than it need be. You add it all together and it's hardly surprising we dont see Coppers on the beat, yet that is what we need if we are to improve the crime figures. That includes the judicial system getting more repeat offenders off the street and banged up. The cost of keeping these Scallies in prison, is a pittance to what it costs to keep re arresting, re charging and then re releasing them. Add the costs of the Solicitors, Lawyers, magistrates, witnesses insurance pay outs. The human cost of the victims of these criminals hasn't come into it yet. Building more prisons is cost effective and would leave us all feeling a little bit safer. It would also free up Police officers to do what they are supposed to be doing, which is preventing crime. If that still leaves us in need of more Police Officers then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Do you not think that employing "secretaries and pen pushers" is better than having very highly qualified people carry out administrative tasks? That seems to contradict your later point.

I agree with you in many ways, we do need to free up police officers to be out preventing crime. It's just that I don't think the best way to do this is to remove thousands of admin staff so that police officers now have to deal with that, remove mental health resources so that police are having to deal with that (I read somewhere that something like 40% of callouts are now in relation to mental health issues and it ties up the police for a huge amount of time as there is no-one to pass the patient to now), cut police numbers so they don't have the ability to have that local bobby, close police stations (about 80% of public police stations have gone in London) so there isn't a local presence, etc.

I'd be interested to see your workings to show that buildings more prisons is cost effective as compared to preventative measures to stop people becoming criminals (which I think would also leave us feeling even safer).

[Wile E Coyote]

You know when loads of people are pointing out how stupidly wrong you are, would your natural reaction not be to think maybe I'm stupidly wrong?

who is that aimed at?

[BurningBeard]

who is that aimed at?

If you have to ask...

[Colburn_Claret]

Do you not think that employing "secretaries and pen pushers" is better than having very highly qualified people carry out administrative tasks? That seems to contradict your later point.

I agree with you in many ways, we do need to free up police officers to be out preventing crime. It's just that I don't think the best way to do this is to remove thousands of admin staff so that police officers now have to deal with that, remove mental health resources so that police are having to deal with that (I read somewhere that something like 40% of callouts are now in relation to mental health issues and it ties up the police for a huge amount of time as there is no-one to pass the patient to now), cut police numbers so they don't have the ability to have that local bobby, close police stations (about 80% of public police stations have gone in London) so there isn't a local presence, etc.

I'd be interested to see your workings to show that buildings more prisons is cost effective as compared to preventative measures to stop people becoming criminals (which I think would also leave us feeling even safer).

My point was more the fact that Red tape has created these posts. It isnt a case of Police Officers taking over clerical duties, just that these clerical duties didn't used to exist. Modern technology means methods have changed, and these facilities need manning, but they can be done without drawing o beat offices. The NHS example was even more extreme, in terms of creating pen pushers. The whole system needs simplifying, but then someone would scream human rights are being ignored by taking shortcuts. Often a loophole exploited to prolong someones freedom. I've known a few people who knew they were banged tobrights who pleaded not guilty. The goes to Crown Court, then Appeals, solely for the purpose of delaying incarceration. That's his RIGHT, but its costs the Tax Payer a fortune and ties up many people, including PO from doing their primary duties.
There are ways of improving this. Offering reduced sentences for people who plead guilty and save the need for a trial. Increasing the sentences for those that extend their trials and still get found guilty.....The main thing is trying to cut the bureaucracy that pervades all our government institutions. Get as much money as possible to the front line where its needed.

P.S. I've written on other threads over the years. I've always been an advocate for ID cards I wouldn't be bothered getting DNA from everybody at birth. Civil Liberties ******** the only people who should fear it are those with criminal intentions. I've heard the arguments of those opposed to them and I just think they are living on a different planet. I just dont get it..

[AndyClaret]

Just another normal day in Mayor Khan's London......

https://twitter.com/MotorcycleTheft/sta ... 4139301888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[aggi]

My point was more the fact that Red tape has created these posts. It isnt a case of Police Officers taking over clerical duties, just that these clerical duties didn't used to exist. Modern technology means methods have changed, and these facilities need manning, but they can be done without drawing o beat offices. The NHS example was even more extreme, in terms of creating pen pushers. The whole system needs simplifying, but then someone would scream human rights are being ignored by taking shortcuts. Often a loophole exploited to prolong someones freedom. I've known a few people who knew they were banged tobrights who pleaded not guilty. The goes to Crown Court, then Appeals, solely for the purpose of delaying incarceration. That's his RIGHT, but its costs the Tax Payer a fortune and ties up many people, including PO from doing their primary duties.
There are ways of improving this. Offering reduced sentences for people who plead guilty and save the need for a trial. Increasing the sentences for those that extend their trials and still get found guilty.....The main thing is trying to cut the bureaucracy that pervades all our government institutions. Get as much money as possible to the front line where its needed.

P.S. I've written on other threads over the years. I've always been an advocate for ID cards I wouldn't be bothered getting DNA from everybody at birth. Civil Liberties ******** the only people who should fear it are those with criminal intentions. I've heard the arguments of those opposed to them and I just think they are living on a different planet. I just dont get it..

But times have moved on. In the past where there may have been a filling cabinet of papers to look at there may now be a hard drive full. If you want intelligence led policing then reports need to be filled and indexed, etc. Is cutting administrative staff the best way of doing this? There was a story recently about a police force getting volunteers to review images for sexual abuse, personally I don't think that's a route we should be taking.

There are already reduced sentences for pleading guilty and I think you'd agree that we can't remove the right to a trial just because you think they're guilty.

On sending more people to prison, just look at the US. Their incarceration rates are way (4 or 5 times) the UK's but the crime rates are higher too. It doesn't look like it's an effective deterrent there.

[Devils_Advocate]

Just another normal day in Mayor Khan's London......

https://twitter.com/MotorcycleTheft/sta ... 4139301888" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Imploding Turtle]

https://news.sky.com/story/cctv-shows-t ... g-11746478" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If this was in London...

[AndyClaret]

Facts, evidence, uncomfortable truths my friend.

[Imploding Turtle]

Facts, evidence, uncomfortable truths my friend.

Says the guy so upset that Trump's government is running concentration camps that he just couldn't read any more lest his teary eye render him blind.

[AndyClaret]

Says the guy so upset that Trump's government is running concentration camps that he just couldn't read any more lest his teary eye render him blind.

Where am i upset ? i couldn't give two hoots about what Trump does or doesn't do, as long as he keeps triggering the likes of you that's fine by me.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Where am i upset ? i couldn't give two hoots about what Trump does or doesn't do, as long as he keeps triggering the likes of you that's fine by me.

You would have been great in the 1930’s!

[Imploding Turtle]

Where am i upset ? i couldn't give two hoots about what Trump does or doesn't do, as long as he keeps triggering the likes of you that's fine by me.

I think its says everything there is to say about you that you're quite content for a country very much like ours to bring back concentration camps just to own the libs.

I kinda wonder if you would be happy to see immigrants here locked up extra-judicially and separated from their children just so that it pisses off people like me. And I think I know the answer.

[joey13]

You would have been great in the 1930’s!

Like Rickets

[Imploding Turtle]

You would have been great in the 1930’s!

I think they were called 'sympathisers' back then.

[Colburn_Claret]

But times have moved on. In the past where there may have been a filling cabinet of papers to look at there may now be a hard drive full. If you want intelligence led policing then reports need to be filled and indexed, etc. Is cutting administrative staff the best way of doing this? There was a story recently about a police force getting volunteers to review images for sexual abuse, personally I don't think that's a route we should be taking.

There are already reduced sentences for pleading guilty and I think you'd agree that we can't remove the right to a trial just because you think they're guilty.

On sending more people to prison, just look at the US. Their incarceration rates are way (4 or 5 times) the UK's but the crime rates are higher too. It doesn't look like it's an effective deterrent there.

Ghettos are ghettos, whether in the UK or USA. I spent a fantastic week in New York, and the only trouble I witnessed was a couple having an argument in the street. Zero tolerance, and sentences for any repeat offender, would deter lots of people from re offending. Career criminals are a different matter, but even more so with these people, put them in a place where they dont have the opportunity to commit crimes. Jail has to be tough, especially for those in short term. Making it cosy doesn't deter anyone. It is the biggest challenge we face, reducing crime, failing to jail repeat offenders, and then making it the life of Riley for them when they do finally get sent down, is top of the list of where this country goes wrong.

[aggi]

Ghettos are ghettos, whether in the UK or USA. I spent a fantastic week in New York, and the only trouble I witnessed was a couple having an argument in the street. Zero tolerance, and sentences for any repeat offender, would deter lots of people from re offending. Career criminals are a different matter, but even more so with these people, put them in a place where they dont have the opportunity to commit crimes. Jail has to be tough, especially for those in short term. Making it cosy doesn't deter anyone. It is the biggest challenge we face, reducing crime, failing to jail repeat offenders, and then making it the life of Riley for them when they do finally get sent down, is top of the list of where this country goes wrong.

You haven't really addressed the point at all there though have you. Why are crime rates in the USA so high given they send so many people to jail?

If we're just going by anecdotes I'm in Ohio at the moment and have seen a few people stopped by the police in the past week which is more than I'd see in London.

[Colburn_Claret]

You haven't really addressed the point at all there though have you. Why are crime rates in the USA so high given they send so many people to jail?

If we're just going by anecdotes I'm in Ohio at the moment and have seen a few people stopped by the police in the past week which is more than I'd see in London.

I've never been all over America, so only stated what I'd witnessed. The benefit system, and health care system in this country, are a thousand times better than America, where in some states it's practically non existent. The benefit system and health care in this country, despite austerity, means nobody should have to resort to crime to get by. Those that do suffer from either greed or bone idleness.
I saw something on the Sky News app yesterday or the day before, 'The homeless dont need handouts, they need jobs'. If you've ever been around a big city, Edinburgh or Manchester, the last thing the homeless want is a job. They need one Yes, but they'd run a blooody mile if you offered them one.
I really think that there are well meaning people, who genuinely want to help the homeless, and young gangster criminals, but dont have a clue about the psyche that drives them. Throwing money at it, without understanding the issues, is just a waste of money.

[SingaporeClarets]

Not quite London but when I read this article and saw the debate on here linking crime with racial demographics then I thought this may be of interest.

Clearly very complex issues which require a strong government to resolve and unfortunately also linked to other non-drug gang related issues in Huddersfield and other towns across the north of England with the same issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/595fH2 ... me_hotspot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you look at the quantities of drugs involved, they are astronomical compared to the quantities which would warrant capital punishment here.

Under Schedule 2 of the Misuse of Drugs Act, (https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/MDA1973#Sc2-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) any person caught involved in "unauthorised traffic or import" of more than the following quantities of drugs receives a mandatory death sentence:

1200 grams of opium and containing more than 30 grams of morphine (§5 and §7, (2)(b));
30 grams of morphine (§5 and §7, (3)(b));
15 grams of diamorphine (heroin) (diamo (§5 and §7, (4)(b));
30 grams of cocaine (§5 and §7, (5)(b));
500 grams of cannabis (§5 and §7, (6)(b));
1000 grams of cannabis mixture (§5 and §7, (7)(b));
200 grams of cannabis resin (§5 and §7, (8)(b));
250 grams of methamphetamine (§5 and §7, (9)(b)).

Death sentences are also mandatory for any person caught manufacturing :

Morphine, or any salt of morphine, ester of morphine or salt of ester of morphine (§6, (2));
Diamorphine (heroin) or any salt of diamorphine (§6, (3));
Cocaine or any sale of cocaine (§6, (4));
Methamphetamine (§6, (5)).

It's worth noting that for quantities less than the above the punishments are typically:

Maximum 30 years or imprisonment for life and 15 strokes

[Imploding Turtle]

You'd think if it was as big a problem as they say it is then they wouldn't have to lie about it.



Spoiler: It's not London.