What would Burnley Football Club be like if it was a member of the "Big Six"

[Chester Perry]

Yesterday I posted about Vysyble's 4th Edition of "We're so rich it is unbelievable" report on PL finances (http://uptheclarets.com/messageboard/po ... &p=1031440" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with added info here http://uptheclarets.com/messageboard/vi ... start=1449" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

which provoked this response

Post #1441.......Vysyble providing yet more thought provoking stuff, although to be fair it's merely confirmation of something we already suspected. Perhaps the so-called big six have got it right and the fact that overseas broadcast income has now increased dramatically means that they are within their rights to demand an even larger share.

I suspect if Burnley were in that elite group we might be thinking on similar lines.

This has got me thinking - What would our club look lime if it was an established Big Six club?
- Would it be owned by lifelong fans?
- Would we as fans become as entitled as those at the other Big 6 clubs?
- Would the fans be as blind to failings and as defensive of their club as say Man City fans
- Would we still play at the Turf in the heart of the town?
- What would our ground look like?
- Would the town have developed to match status of the club?
- Would life long local fans be priced out of regular attendance?
- Would our away support dwindle due to a combination of success/cost/incomes in the way Man City are struggling?

The discussion does not belong on the Magic Money Tree thread so brought it to a thread of it's own

[Steve1956]

A lot of plastic support.

[COBBLE]

We were for a week or so!

[claptrappers_union]

This has got me thinking - What would our club look lime if it was an established Big Six club?

- Would it be owned by lifelong fans? No, unless there is a Billionaire Claret out there somewhere...

- Would we as fans become as entitled as those at the other Big 6 clubs? Fans from the 'dark days' wouldn't. But on a whole, yes they would

- Would the fans be as blind to failings and as defensive of their club as say Man City fans? All fans are, doesn't matter which club.

- Would we still play at the Turf in the heart of the town? No, we need a larger, modern stadium, is there space in the town?

- What would our ground look like? King Power Stadium

- Would the town have developed to match status of the club? Probably not

- Would life long local fans be priced out of regular attendance? No, Premier League clubs are selling out every week, doesn't matter where you are in the league

- Would our away support dwindle due to a combination of success/cost/incomes in the way Man City are struggling? Our away support isn't that special anyway

[Royboyclaret]

Happy to play along with this even though, in reality, we know it's highly unlikely that Burnley could ever take that next permanent step to be a top-six club. Nevertheless there are some intriguing conundrums outlined in the OP if it ever were to happen.

In terms of ownership, if the unthinkable did happen, how difficult would it then be for Mike, John, Barry and the other four to hand over the reins to an outsider with no real connection to the Club and town? They've guided the Club through the recent years of good and not so good and undoubtedly would have the backing of the fans in an attempt to consolidate a top-six position. How fantastic would it be for them to succeed?

As for location I really hope amendments could be made to the existing site with a view to maintaining our historical home. Make the cricket club an offer they could no longer refuse and do a 'New White Hart Lane' moving the base 50 metres or so back towards town and constructing a new stadium perhaps in the image of the King Power. It's a not well known fact that before the football and cricket clubs occupied the site it was the home of a horse racing track from the early 1800's.

[Tricky Trevor]

Royboy is spot on with purchasing the cricket club. The acreage is ample for a 30-35k stadium, with footings for expansion, and parking. I’m sure the cricket club would be thrilled with their brand spanking cricket ground and the funds to improve their coaching of locals.

[Chester Perry]

Royboy is spot on with purchasing the cricket club. The acreage is ample for a 30-35k stadium, with footings for expansion, and parking. I’m sure the cricket club would be thrilled with their brand spanking cricket ground and the funds to improve their coaching of locals.

I suspect that he only way you will ever get the cricket club to move is to replicate their revenue from the football, to do this would effectively see the football club rent the land off them/or profit share starting at around £300-400k a year and rising with inflation (clauses would have to be inserted depending on the division we are in. Even then the football club would first have to fund the cricket clubs new ground and facilities as a"turn key" type move

[Bosscat]

A lot of plastic support.

Aren't they getting Plastic Support in the CFS (unless they stand up all game with the new seating

[timshorts]

Guess I'd enjoy regularly finishing in the top 6 but not being a member of the big six.
A top 6 of wolves, Newcastle, Norwich, Southampton, Everton and us for a few years, not in that order, would be perfect.

[Royboyclaret]

I suspect that he only way you will ever get the cricket club to move is to replicate their revenue from the football, to do this would effectively see the football club rent the land off them/or profit share starting at around £300-400k a year and rising with inflation (clauses would have to be inserted depending on the division we are in. Even then the football club would first have to fund the cricket clubs new ground and facilities as a"turn key" type move

Thing is Chester, if we became a member of the top-six set, finance or lack of, ceases to be a problem. We can provide the cricket club with a shiny new home across the way at Towneley and fund them as necessary.

[Chester Perry]

I have long thought the best option for the cricket club (subject to finance) was the old Sainsbury's site (now TK Max) along with the Baptist church and the store next to that - I suspect that you could have a great social club (on the Yorkshire street corridor, an indoor nets facility year round and really engage the eastern side of the town the same way Lowerhouse have with the west End. It could be a real bowl against the straight mile and benefit hugely from the central position

[AlargeClaret]

Thing is Chester, if we became a member of the top-six set, finance or lack of, ceases to be a problem. We can provide the cricket club with a shiny new home across the way at Towneley and fund them as necessary.

Often considered this , surely a cricket pitch with a clubhouse and some nets/changing rooms etc is relatively shall beer in the “ football money tree” world? I realise they’d have to get endless planning and build relief road etc etc but the thought of a huge cop like end would be fantastic for the club quite possibly bringing some real atmosphere back . If we had another solid season though I genuinely like to see some serious ground development movement of either the BL or CFS

[Steve1956]

Aren't they getting Plastic Support in the CFS (unless they stand up all game with the new seating

[Tricky Trevor]

I suspect that he only way you will ever get the cricket club to move is to replicate their revenue from the football, to do this would effectively see the football club rent the land off them/or profit share starting at around £300-400k a year and rising with inflation (clauses would have to be inserted depending on the division we are in. Even then the football club would first have to fund the cricket clubs new ground and facilities as a"turn key" type move

I would never argue with you on football & finance but as Royboy has commented it is the big 6 element that would allow us to buy them out. It would take a year or so to get their new ground match ready, pitch & facilities. I’m sure they’d be grateful for a big cheque but even an annual payment wouldn’t hurt the football operations.

[cricketfieldclarets]

In a minority but even as a non cricket fan i love the cricket ground being next to the football ground. Its just another nod to our tradition.

I would prefer we revamped where we are and looked at building some sort of tie with the cricket club. Better for us, better for them and importantly better for the community.

No reason there isn't enough space for both. There is ample room behind the longside, some behind CFS and JML to make it work. We could even have something a bit quirkier a la Brentfords new ground. Making the most of the space we have.

[Hipper]

The only way we could be a top six club is the way Blackburn did it - some Burnley supporter benefactor. I can't see anyone that would consider owning the current big six wanting to throw money at Burnley, a small town in a run down locality. The big six were already pretty big or had big potential. We are none of those.

Therefore we wouldn't need a much bigger stadium - we'd rarely fill it.

There would perhaps be a bigger sense of entitlement amongst fans - we have that now in small ways.

The running of the club would depend even less on supporters then it does now. I imagine a Bob Lord type character who would implement all the things he couldn't do then, especially doing without supporters. Of course he couldn't threaten to burn the television cameras!

Frankly I don't like the idea at all. We are a special club to us with some actual special qualities and history - like many smaller clubs. I would prefer to keep it that way. Small minded maybe but there are obvious examples of a club being a rich man's plaything until he gets bored or runs out of money. Surely we've been too close to oblivion to want to be there again.

[Tricky Trevor]

No reason there isn't enough space for both. There is ample room behind the longside, some behind CFS and JML to make it work. We could even have something a bit quirkier a la Brentfords new ground. Making the most of the space we have.

The boundary is to short to the CFS as is. You couldn’t, sensibly, do anything to take that back.

[Royboyclaret]

The only way we could be a top six club is the way Blackburn did it - some Burnley supporter benefactor. I can't see anyone that would consider owning the current big six wanting to throw money at Burnley, a small town in a run down locality. The big six were already pretty big or had big potential. We are none of those.

Therefore we wouldn't need a much bigger stadium - we'd rarely fill it.

There would perhaps be a bigger sense of entitlement amongst fans - we have that now in small ways.

The running of the club would depend even less on supporters then it does now. I imagine a Bob Lord type character who would implement all the things he couldn't do then, especially doing without supporters. Of course he couldn't threaten to burn the television cameras!

Frankly I don't like the idea at all. We are a special club to us with some actual special qualities and history - like many smaller clubs. I would prefer to keep it that way. Small minded maybe but there are obvious examples of a club being a rich man's plaything until he gets bored or runs out of money. Surely we've been too close to oblivion to want to be there again.

And yet in December of the 2017/18 after we beat Stoke City we were 4th in the big league, and never worse than 7th for the remainder of the season.

Perhaps we have all become conditioned to the fact that in order to join the top six set each team has to contain 11 players all valued at £60m or more. Maybe one day we will achieve the same doing it the Burnley way and then the rest of the football world will sit up and accept there might just be an alternative way forward.

[mikeS]

Faceless individuals appointed by ruthless, dodgy corporations running the club totally unaccountable to the fans.
Appointing a different manager every season. Top six also rans like Chelsea or Arsenal? No thanks. And to compete with Citeh, well a two or three billion injection of cash, might well do it but their aren't many Sheihks throwing money about in Burnley (at the moment).

[Royboyclaret]

Faceless individuals appointed by ruthless, dodgy corporations running the club totally unaccountable to the fans.
Appointing a different manager every season. Top six also rans like Chelsea or Arsenal? No thanks. And to compete with Citeh, well a two or three billion injection of cash, might well do it but their aren't many Sheihks throwing money about in Burnley (at the moment).

But mikeS, does it really HAVE to be the only way?........We proved in '17/'18 we can challenge the top six by employing an alternative method.

[arise_sir_charge]

The boundary is to short to the CFS as is. You couldn’t, sensibly, do anything to take that back.

There is more than ample space where the cricket field is, the club house, the road up the side and the car park on Harry Potts Way to reconfigure the cricket club and create a brilliant facility.

[Quickenthetempo]

The club aren't set up in any way to be a big club.

We don't think big, actions aren't big and we don't even talk big. Dyche and the chairman play everything down.

But it works for Burnley.

[Quickenthetempo]

There is more than ample space where the cricket field is, the club house, the road up the side and the car park on Harry Potts Way to reconfigure the cricket club and create a brilliant facility.

Haven't they got an artificial net facility there now?

[edlass]

I still really don't understand the finance thing.

If there was a Bill Gates rich Burnley fan out there how would he put the money in without us failing FFP? Would it have to be a £1bn Microsoft sponsorship to hide it whilst we build the infrastructure to match? Buy the ground for £500m?

[Pstotto]

Nottingham Forest used to be and so did Leeds... And so did Burnley!

[AndrewJB]

I don’t think a rich owner is the way to go, unless they’re genuine Burnley fans, and there is an agreed succession path in place, for when they’ve gone. I’d like to see the club owned by the fans, and in some respects the Green Bay Packers, and Barcelona might have models to consider in this. I think the club can certainly attract support from overseas playing up to how small a town we are as the perennial underdog.

[Chester Perry]

I still really don't understand the finance thing.

If there was a Bill Gates rich Burnley fan out there how would he put the money in without us failing FFP? Would it have to be a £1bn Microsoft sponsorship to hide it whilst we build the infrastructure to match? Buy the ground for £500m?

This is the dichotmy of FFP at UEFA level, which is very different and more stringent than PL. To get the big commercial deals and additionsl TV revenues you need to have European success ideally in the Champions League (Leicester set world record profits the 1 year they played in it). To get to Champions League you have to meet UEFA FFP which is all about Profit and Sustainability (same as EFL) and that is much more difficult. Both City and Chelsea would have not been allowed in at the time of their growth surges under current rules which effectively closed the door behind them.

3 English clubs are currently trying to find a way though:

- Wolves have a very clear vision and strategy, utilise a particular talent centre (Portugal) very well and benefit from a local fanbase that could support 50k plus attendances, once one of the biggest clubs in the country.

- Leicester got lucky to an extent with their title, they had an excellent talent spotting (data driven) system (now much copied) and were able to forge a success from a small nucleus of players who largely avoided injury and had the best defensive midfielder in the world. Since then they have invested heavily in infrastructure (£100m on training/Academy facility) and top quality kids.

- Everton, possibly the biggest of the founding clubs (Aston Villa potentially closest) with a long top flight history, have money and fanbase to grow just need to sort out the new ground and stabilise the strategy

The biggest problem for any insurgent is keeping hold of their best players - Leicester didn't last time and actually lost their midfield pretty cheaply which is why we now see them pricing Maguire at £80m and Maddison at over £60m.

In Europe new owners at both the Milan clubs, Roma and possibly even Fiorentina are going to start challenging Juventus as club owned Stadiums come on line in the next 5 years. AC Milan have fallen foul of UEFA FFP in the last 2 seasons and are currently fighting their case with CAS

[JohnDearyMe]

I suspect that he only way you will ever get the cricket club to move is to replicate their revenue from the football, to do this would effectively see the football club rent the land off them/or profit share starting at around £300-400k a year and rising with inflation (clauses would have to be inserted depending on the division we are in. Even then the football club would first have to fund the cricket clubs new ground and facilities as a"turn key" type move

Is that roughly how much the cricket club make each year from fans using the clubhouse before and after our games?

[Tall Paul]

But mikeS, does it really HAVE to be the only way?........We proved in '17/'18 we can challenge the top six by employing an alternative method.

It does have to be that way to challenge them consistently, I'm afraid. Our results from that season just aren't sustainable against clubs with much bigger budgets, as we showed last season. And we didn't really challenge them that season, we were a long way short of the top six in the end.

[Stayingup]

Happy to play along with this even though, in reality, we know it's highly unlikely that Burnley could ever take that next permanent step to be a top-six club. Nevertheless there are some intriguing conundrums outlined in the OP if it ever were to happen.

In terms of ownership, if the unthinkable did happen, how difficult would it then be for Mike, John, Barry and the other four to hand over the reins to an outsider with no real connection to the Club and town? They've guided the Club through the recent years of good and not so good and undoubtedly would have the backing of the fans in an attempt to consolidate a top-six position. How fantastic would it be for them to succeed?

As for location I really hope amendments could be made to the existing site with a view to maintaining our historical home. Make the cricket club an offer they could no longer refuse and do a 'New White Hart Lane' moving the base 50 metres or so back towards town and constructing a new stadium perhaps in the image of the King Power. It's a not well known fact that before the football and cricket clubs occupied the site it was the home of a horse racing track from the early 1800's.

Just a point. There are many fans who attend games who dont have any real conection to the town but they do have to the club.

As far as the ground extension, upgrade whatever, that would be a requirement to suit our current status. Your idea is very good.

[houseboy]

People keep talking about making the ground bigger but it would never be needed. The numbers don't stack up. United, for instance, get as many at a game as Burnley has population (pretty much), they and City share a population of over half a milllion in Manchester and probably about 3 times that in the larger area. Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs have the lions share of a population of around 8 million. The greater Liverpool area has a population of over 2.2 million with only 2 teams of any note playing there. The only reason for having a much bigger ground would be purely to make even more money from a much bigger away section, and even then who would fill it apart from the big six (and maybe not the likes of Spurs or Arsenal even) plus maybe one or two others? No matter how 'big' we get we are never going to have more than about 20k home regulars (not including any 'out-of-towners' who may decide to trophy hunt) so spending money on a bigger ground (and turfing out the cricket club) all seem a bit pointless. Any money spent on the ground should be done to make it better, not particularly bigger.

[mikeS]

Yeah a few billion quid would do it I would think.
First, 1 - 2 billion to rebuild Turf Moor, probably just off the M65 at Accrington where a new Disneyland was once planned. With new access roads, a huge car park, shopping mall, restaurants, plus a new training ground (a bit like Citeh’s ) maybe throw in a small airport or dedicated railway station nearby for all the thousands of additional glory hunting fans who would fly in every fortnight just to watch us play Real Madrid and Barca.

Then we could spend the rest on twenty-odd multi-million pound a week players from Brazil, Argentina and the cream of Europe, fly them in and put them and their families up in purpose built luxury homes the Ribble Valley, with Chauffeur driven Bentleys to training.

No, I think i’ll stick with my season ticket in the Bob Lord supporting a built not bought team thanks

[IanMcL]

There is no point for anyone to invest sufficient funds, to achieve tha outcome, as per city etc.

Catchment, not large enough. Returns, not possible.

We must do it the hard way.

I am pleased to say.

[Chester Perry]

There is no point for anyone to invest sufficient funds, to achieve tha outcome, as per city etc.

Catchment, not large enough. Returns, not possible.

We must do it the hard way.

I am pleased to say.

I am not sure we have ever mined the possibilities of our catchment area - you only ever hear the club talk about the town

The combined populations of the boroughs of Burnley and Padiham, Pendle, Rossendale, Craven, Calderdale together with parts of the Ribble Valley and Keighley is a sizeable one and big enough for us to work at (without much competition)


I remember our friends down the road being mocked for their buses from all over the place (not saying that should be our approach), especially north Lancashire - but it did develop new loyalties and attachments that they are trying to rekindle again https://twitter.com/ICTalbot/status/1141721996620894208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IanMcL]

I am not sure we have ever mined the possibilities of our catchment area - you only ever hear the club talk about the town

The combined populations of the boroughs of Burnley and Padiham, Pendle, Rossendale, Craven, Calderdale together with parts of the Ribble Valley and Keighley is a sizeable one and big enough for us to work at (without much competition)


I remember our friends down the road being mocked for their buses from all over the place (not saying that should be our approach), especially north Lancashire - but it did develop new loyalties and attachments that they are trying to rekindle again https://twitter.com/ICTalbot/status/1141721996620894208" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree with that as potential, ChesterP, however, it is a 'non-focussed' catchment, with no definitive, unlike a big city. That is the investment attraction.

I would applaud the club working in those communities, to attract new fans. Laying on transport, would be a good way of filling the stadium, every match.