Driving home earlier and listening to ‘Drive’ on Talksport. Michael Gray laboured the point, that he couldn’t understand why the Argies didn’t have to retake the penalty that they scored as the Scotland keeper had moved forward on that penalty as well. Not sure how that ended as I had to leave the car for a few minutes and when I returned they had changed the subject.

Well Michael Gray knows cock-all about penalties, as demonstrated by his infamous play-off final miss.

Why should you have to retake a penalty that you score, if the goalkeeper tries, and fails, to gain an unfair advantage?

How far did Tony Philiskirk get, seem to remember he wanted to get into refereeing?

Michael Gray giving us every reason why ex players don’t become referees

elwaclaret wrote:How far did Tony Philiskirk get, seem to remember he wanted to get into refereeing?

Got offered the youth job at Oldham so went for that

elwaclaret wrote:How far did Tony Philiskirk get, seem to remember he wanted to get into refereeing?

I seem to remember him becoming disillusioned because he couldn’t be fast-tracked. The number of young referees about now the rules may have been changed. We have a number of ex-refs on here so one of them will know.

When I did my old class certificate the league ref doing the training said youve always got to remember footballers don't know how the rules are applied,
they only think they do

Tricky Trevor wrote:I seem to remember him becoming disillusioned because he couldn’t be fast-tracked. The number of young referees about now the rules may have been changed. We have a number of ex-refs on here so one of them will know.

Not at all. He was progressing with his refereeing until the Oldham opportunity came up.

ClaretTony wrote:Not at all. He was progressing with his refereeing until the Oldham opportunity came up.

Fair enough.
I knew I’d read it somewhere. http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... hp?t=34858" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Impossible to fast track. There are criteria you must hit to be considered for promotion. The only "double jump" is level 7 to 5 or the very difficult 6 to 4. Following that it is an annual promotion scheme
It's all about experience and evolving as you go up the levels.
Refereeing a game at grass roots is very different to the semi pro and pro world.
There is a promotion / relegation system and a separate AR / ref pathway from levels 3 and 4 upwards. Very simple if you are not good enough you wont be around for long.
The minimum it would take is 6 or 7 years and by that point as an ex pro you are probably well into your 40s with a comparatively short shelf life compared to a Michael Oliver or similar who will be able to operate at the top level for probably 20 plus years.

In theory the earliest anyone could get to SG1 is 34/24 years old. That would take some serious luck and ability.

I also cant see ex pros wanting to put up with the grief for the princely sum of £30

Talking of referees, I wish they would enforce the taking of a penalty on the centre of the penalty spot, or has it now changed from an exact distance from the goal-line. Used to be 12 yards which was specific. Now I’m constantly seeing players trying to just ensure that it is partly on the spot, as close to goal as possible.

Darnhill Claret wrote:Talking of referees, I wish they would enforce the taking of a penalty on the centre of the penalty spot, or has it now changed from an exact distance from the goal-line. Used to be 12 yards which was specific. Now I’m constantly seeing players trying to just ensure that it is partly on the spot, as close to goal as possible.

Agreed. A small spot that the ball sits on would end all the messing with re-spotting.

Darnhill Claret wrote:Talking of referees, I wish they would enforce the taking of a penalty on the centre of the penalty spot, or has it now changed from an exact distance from the goal-line. Used to be 12 yards which was specific. Now I’m constantly seeing players trying to just ensure that it is partly on the spot, as close to goal as possible.

I think it's less as close to goal as possible, more that the penalty spot is often a bit damaged and they want to put the ball away from that.

Best ref ever, Mr Fussey.

basil6345789 wrote:Best ref ever, Mr Fussey.

We’re going back some time to Maurice Fussey. He ended up working for Sheffield United.

Referees were always referred to as Mr back then.

Roger Kirkpatrick, lol.

aggi wrote:I think it's less as close to goal as possible, more that the penalty spot is often a bit damaged and they want to put the ball away from that.

That’s exactly what Crouch was saying on his podcast the other week

Yeh, all those roughed up damaged pitches that we have these days.

dpinsussex wrote:Impossible to fast track. There are criteria you must hit to be considered for promotion. The only "double jump" is level 7 to 5 or the very difficult 6 to 4. Following that it is an annual promotion scheme
It's all about experience and evolving as you go up the levels.
Refereeing a game at grass roots is very different to the semi pro and pro world.
There is a promotion / relegation system and a separate AR / ref pathway from levels 3 and 4 upwards. Very simple if you are not good enough you wont be around for long.
The minimum it would take is 6 or 7 years and by that point as an ex pro you are probably well into your 40s with a comparatively short shelf life compared to a Michael Oliver or similar who will be able to operate at the top level for probably 20 plus years.

In theory the earliest anyone could get to SG1 is 34/24 years old. That would take some serious luck and ability.

I also cant see ex pros wanting to put up with the grief for the princely sum of £30

Nonetheless, there is a fast track scheme which seems to me to put an awful lot of pressure on the fast trackee as they appear at matches with coaches of their own, expect to be treated differently ( although that might be more the 'minder's' doing) and generally don't have the confidence of the players - whereas those not on the scheme but happened to be promoted quickly through their own merit do have.

There are some very able young officials about. And for the record, dpinsussex was decent when he was in Sussex.

Trouble is, some ex players will just see it as another chance to get their name and face bandied around again.

Best refs are those you don’t notice.

bobinho wrote:Trouble is, some ex players will just see it as another chance to get their name and face bandied around again.

Best refs are those you don’t notice.

Mike Dean a prime Example very good referee..at times you wouldn't know he was on the pitch.

Most ex players do not want to ref simply because they know the abuse they would have to put up with from current players

timshorts wrote:Nonetheless, there is a fast track scheme which seems to me to put an awful lot of pressure on the fast trackee as they appear at matches with coaches of their own, expect to be treated differently ( although that might be more the 'minder's' doing) and generally don't have the confidence of the players - whereas those not on the scheme but happened to be promoted quickly through their own merit do have.

There are some very able young officials about. And for the record, dpinsussex was decent when he was in Sussex.

Thanks for the compliment. I felt I was bang average back in Sussex lol not sure how many times I refereed you and how long ago but sure you will back me when i say i applied law.

I now have a coach for the first time in my career and am refereeing at a way better standard than I have ever done so in the past.
He will come to just a couple of games per season but we speak post game for an hour every Saturday night. Even when things went well he will challenge my decision making and look for improvements. Very glad to have him.

This is all down to experience and polishing those few rough edges. Still lots to learn but have overcome lots of hurdles to get to where I am now. Each level provides very different challenges most notably getting to know the players and vice versa. How to manage them, what you will tolerate.
The art of being in the right position is very difficult and is now starting to become second nature.

Re confidence as a referee it is crucial to be confident in order to sell those unpopular decisions. Remember there are often 11 players questioning 1 person so you need to be very sure of what you give.
The balance is confidence v arrogance which winds players up more than being unconfident.

tim_noone wrote:Mike Dean a prime Example very good referee..at times you wouldn't know he was on the pitch.

The aim of every referee is not to be noticed however there are times when you have to stand up and be noticed. I will say sometimes that is the referees doing that they are having to stand up all down to their actions. A change in what they have done could have prevented a big decision.

Darnhill Claret wrote:Talking of referees, I wish they would enforce the taking of a penalty on the centre of the penalty spot, or has it now changed from an exact distance from the goal-line. Used to be 12 yards which was specific. Now I’m constantly seeing players trying to just ensure that it is partly on the spot, as close to goal as possible.

Any part of the ball has to touch any part of the penalty mark.
Same as a corner and touching the arc.

bobinho wrote:Best refs are those you don’t notice.

I genuinely think a lot of refs have an eye on the lucrative after dinner speech circuit.

You don’t get that gig by being unnoticed.

The law says that there should be a penalty mark, 11 metres from the goal.

In practice this mark can be a spot, circle or even a cross. The law says the measurement is to the centre of the mark. As far as I know there is no rule about the size of this mark. In my view, therefore, the ball should be placed on the centre of the mark. Putting the ball on the edge of the spot is not 11 metres from the goal and is therefore wrong.

I suspect refs assume it is similar to corner kicks where the ball has to be placed inside the corner quadrant and that quadrant area includes the line that marks it - i.e. the one metre measurement of the quadrant is to the outside of the line. As the whole of the ball has to cross a line to be considered out, that is also applied to corners.

dpinsussex wrote:Any part of the ball has to touch any part of the penalty mark.
Same as a corner and touching the arc.

Re: my earlier post. The spot is meant to be at 12yd. Why not the small spot?

The spot should be 22cms diameter which is also very close to the diameter of the ball.
The ball may be placed exactly as dpinsussex said with any part of the ball touching the spot or whatever other mark is made.

Hipper--the practice of placing the ball so that part of it overhangs the corner quadrant, goal line etc., has only really come into the game in recent seasons -----I wonder who was the first to do it?
Although it falls within TLOG I always feel that it is a mild attempt at cheating that has crept into the modern game. I never experienced this when I was playing and refereeing but I retired 14 years ago.

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:The spot should be 22cms diameter which is also very close to the diameter of the ball.
The ball may be placed exactly as dpinsussex said with any part of the ball touching the spot or whatever other mark is made.

Does it say that in the Laws somewhere. I was a groundsman, not at any high level, but I never heard of this 22cms diameter.

Hipper--the practice of placing the ball so that part of it overhangs the corner quadrant, goal line etc., has only really come into the game in recent seasons -----I wonder who was the first to do it?
Although it falls within TLOG I always feel that it is a mild attempt at cheating that has crept into the modern game. I never experienced this when I was playing and refereeing but I retired 14 years ago.

Very true and that's my experience too. I look at it as the players and their management pushing all boundaries as far as they can - long walks off when substituted, time to set up free kicks or throw ins etc. etc. - anything to get a perceived advantage, even to the point of making the opponents get the ball rather then giving it to them. In the old days it was about winding opponents or referees up, and of course that still goes on to a more subtle degree.

Someone somewhere will have done some research that shows the advantage of doing these things - getting everything precisely in place, running down the clock, increasing energy consumption of opponents...

Hipper wrote:Does it say that in the Laws somewhere. I was a groundsman, not at any high level, but I never heard of this 22cms diameter.

No, I don't think so. It is just a memory from my RAF days in Germany and my involvement with Monchengladbach Amateurs. It was the German groundsman that told me that and I just took it as read ---obviously, I was too trusting, mind you, it was not matter of great importance as a 19 year old!

Very true and that's my experience too. I look at it as the players and their management pushing all boundaries as far as they can - long walks off when substituted, time to set up free kicks or throw ins etc. etc. - anything to get a perceived advantage, even to the point of making the opponents get the ball rather then giving it to them. In the old days it was about winding opponents or referees up, and of course that still goes on to a more subtle degree.

Someone somewhere will have done some research that shows the advantage of doing these things - getting everything precisely in place, running down the clock, increasing energy consumption of opponents...

You have hit the nail on the head with those observations, however, as officials you always knew that there were lots of players and management who were intent on pushing things to the extreme. They must have thought that we didn't know!

dpinsussex wrote:Any part of the ball has to touch any part of the penalty mark.
Same as a corner and touching the arc.

I remember when players used to remove the corner flag to take a (inswinging) corner in the days when the ball had to be inside the D. That isn't allowed now either, they held up a match a couple of months ago cos a corner flag was broken (Man C?)

Yeah, Joey Barton would make a brilliant ref!!!

rob63 wrote:I remember when players used to remove the corner flag to take a (inswinging) corner in the days when the ball had to be inside the D. That isn't allowed now either, they held up a match a couple of months ago cos a corner flag was broken (Man C?)

Correct it was man city and remember that too. corner flags are a mandatory piece of equipment on the field if play.