VAR at the Women’s World Cup

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Whitgord
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VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Whitgord » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:07 pm

Just watched end of game between Sweden and Canada. Full time whistle is blown by ref. Then amazingly there is a possibility of a VAR review for handball. Sweden are busy celebrating, fans are heading for the exits. Thankfully VAR review comes to nothing. This is getting beyond a joke. Although VAR seems to be getting the decisions right it is absolutely killing the spontaneity for the watching fans. I love the use of technology in cricket but it is just so clinical and slow for football. I predict huge backlash from fans at next seasons premier league games.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by aggi » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:23 pm

We've already had some pretty stupid instances
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -var-chaos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:25 pm

aggi wrote:We've already had some pretty stupid instances
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -var-chaos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Remember that one in Germany
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by IanMcL » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:50 pm

The VAR offside has to be sorted with clear space between defender and attacker. This too end or heel makes you offside is ludicrous and unfair.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Stproc » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:53 pm

Other sports have utilised this technology pretty well but I’m dreading what will happen this next season. Cricket allows error but leans towards the umpires original decision. Football referees just seem to be avoiding decisions and passing it to VAR.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by kentonclaret » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:59 pm

Slightly different in cricket (50 over world cup) because each captain only has a single review per innings should they use it rashly. Hence, not too much time is wasted because reviews are limited. If the women's football world cup is a foretaste of what's to come this season they will ruin the game as a spectacle and take away much of the enjoyment from fans. Instead of discussing the game after the final whistle the first topic will be the VAR decisions. Surely that cannot be right.

We have already seen in cricket that most umpires refer all runout decisions to the Third Umpire, even when it is clearly obvious one way or the other, they would rather leave it to technology.
Last edited by kentonclaret on Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by dsr » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:01 pm

Stproc wrote:Other sports have utilised this technology pretty well but I’m dreading what will happen this next season. Cricket allows error but leans towards the umpires original decision. Football referees just seem to be avoiding decisions and passing it to VAR.
The main difference is that other sports only use it for clear and obvious errors. Football doesn't. (Regardless of what they claim.)

The other problem is that other sports recognise the limitation of technology. Football doesn't - football thinks that the TV picture will give a definitive answer in all cases, and sees nothing wrong (when the definitive answer isn't there) in just taking a guess. Marginal offside being the most flagrant.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by RammyClaret61 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:08 pm

Why is it called VAR? Shouldn’t it be VARC? I’ve only ever seen it written VAR controversy :lol:

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:12 pm

Stproc wrote:Other sports have utilised this technology pretty well but I’m dreading what will happen this next season. Cricket allows error but leans towards the umpires original decision. Football referees just seem to be avoiding decisions and passing it to VAR.
The one huge difference is there not being any subjective decisions in cricket.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by dsr » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:15 pm

ClaretTony wrote:The one huge difference is there not being any subjective decisions in cricket.
That obviously helps with technology, and even in cricket they have situations like stumpings where they accept that they technology isn't good enough to judge it to the inch, and lbws where they go "umpire's call" where the question of whether or not it would have hit the stumps is too close to say with certainty.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by !aiboforceN » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:33 pm

It seems to (mostly) be working in terms of getting the right decisions - but I do feel that being able to hear the dialogue between the ref and the VAR team would help those watching.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Bin Ont Turf » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:39 pm

If it's going to be implemented the same in the men's World Cup then it's going to become unwatchable. In fact it's going to be a farce.

What is the point of Video Assistant Referees if the referee on the field has to keep going off the field to look at a video?

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Tricky Trevor » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:47 pm

Saw a VAR anomaly tonight. The attacker can only be offside with a part of the body they can score with but the defender can play them onside by pointing back at their own goalline.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:50 pm

Tricky Trevor wrote:Saw a VAR anomaly tonight. The attacker can only be offside with a part of the body they can score with but the defender can play them onside by pointing back at their own goalline.
That’s not a VAR anomaly. That’s the laws for offside.
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Claret » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:00 am

The length of time it takes to reach a decision is a major stumbling block. Some delays I just do not understand. The telly shows a replay of an incident within seconds and I can immediately see that it is/isn’t a foul or that it is/isn’t offside. The VA Referee should watch the bl**dy BBC highlights.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Lord_Bob » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:15 am

Here's how you implement VAR. The goals of VAR should be:

1) allow the on field officials to be in charge
2) not interrupt the flow of the game
3) eliminate bad decisions by the on field officials

In order for those goals to be met:

Each team gets one review per half.
The request to review an on field decision is via the manager to the 4th official and must specify exactly which decision is being challenged.
Lose the challenge, lose the review, win and retain the review for the half. Otherwise, all on field decisions stand.

Play this out with Eng vs Cameroon, England 2nd goal would (likely) have been challenged and won by Eng, Cameroon "goal" would likely have NOT be challenged and game is now 2-1, emotions are in check and we have a game on our hands. England penalty claim in 2nd half would have been challenged and likely won, so result stays the same and the bad decisions, as opposed to the marginal (offside) decisions have been eliminated.

One caveat, be clear about which on field decisions can be challenged. I would not allow yellow / red card decisions to be challenged - too subjective, and gets to point 1) - on field officials are in charge.
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Firthy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:11 am

Having seen some of the decisions and how long it takes to review. I've finally decided that football is actually better off without it. Seeing everything scrutinised to every minute detail and even then it's still not clear will make the game sterile. Players will end up being afraid to make tackles inside the penalty area because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Hibsclaret » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:39 am

Lord_Bob wrote:Here's how you implement VAR. The goals of VAR should be:

1) allow the on field officials to be in charge
2) not interrupt the flow of the game
3) eliminate bad decisions by the on field officials

In order for those goals to be met:

Each team gets one review per half.
The request to review an on field decision is via the manager to the 4th official and must specify exactly which decision is being challenged.
Lose the challenge, lose the review, win and retain the review for the half. Otherwise, all on field decisions stand.

Play this out with Eng vs Cameroon, England 2nd goal would (likely) have been challenged and won by Eng, Cameroon "goal" would likely have NOT be challenged and game is now 2-1, emotions are in check and we have a game on our hands. England penalty claim in 2nd half would have been challenged and likely won, so result stays the same and the bad decisions, as opposed to the marginal (offside) decisions have been eliminated.

One caveat, be clear about which on field decisions can be challenged. I would not allow yellow / red card decisions to be challenged - too subjective, and gets to point 1) - on field officials are in charge.
Agree with most of this.

However, the pen for England wasn’t given on VAR review. Not sure how they came to that decision but the challenge would allow them to review and still get the wrong decision. The England/Cameroon game is a bad example because the referee made Darren Deadman look like Collina. She didn’t even see the red/ yellow card challenge in the last minute....

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Lord_Bob » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:40 pm

The reason the pen wasn't given was that the ref was scared that Cameroon would walk off if she gave it, according to a report (Telegraph I think). Totally bottled it - so I agree with your assessment of the refs capabilities, or lack thereof.

However, had the Cameroon goal been allowed, the situation wold have been different and the pen probably given, as it should have been.

So I stick by my VAR rules IF we are going to have to have it - I am no longer convinced it is a good thing - certainly the way it is currently implemented.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Claretforever » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:52 pm

I’d rather be talking about an unjust decision (in my eyes) over a pint or two afterwards than VAR. I don’t want it at all.

They are going to have to delay the football results by 10 minutes next season.
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:02 pm

The Cameroon game is a good example of how VAR interference can spoil a game just by trying to get it right.
The two offside decisions proved to be correct. The England goal which was allowed had been flagged as offside when the ball went in the next and this was the big beef from the Cameroon team. The Cameroon goal which was disallowed had not been flagged but was disallowed because of VAR.
In real time, the original decisions would have stood and I don't think that anybody from either team would have argued about it and there certainly would ont have been the ridiculous happenings caused by the revues.
In my opinion, these things affected the onfield officials and they missed several things afterwards including the penalty and the assault on Steph Houghton ---they shouldn't have, however, I think that their confidence had gone.
As an official you give what you see, it will not always agree with what the fan or players see, however, it is your decision and, as a referee, your decision is final --unfortunately, with VAR interference, this is no longer the case.
VAR will keep the authorities, the media and many modern fans happy but will result in the game becoming very sterile with players not wanting to risk a challenge and many instances of physical contact being penalised one way or another and officials constantly being hounded by people sat at a TV screen, many who will be 100 miles plus from the action!

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:11 pm

One thing I've seen time and time again on Twitter that hasn't been communicated well is that off-sides under VAR are NOT about clear and obvious errors. They're now seen as a decision based on fact. I'd question the technology being 100% accurate and whether someone being a few millimeters offside is really in the spirit of the game. Unfortunately though, the people who harp on about the money involved want it to be like this.

Like it or loathe it, hopefully offsides will be one thing that officials won't be able to be manipulated on. I still fear that VAR over the course of a season is going to benefit the big boys far more than it does us. Even taking away unconscious bias, I expect we'll see more penalties given and teams spending a lot more time defending are likely to be penalised more often.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by IanMcL » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:55 pm

VAR will not help us!

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Hibsclaret » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:01 pm

IanMcL wrote:VAR will not help us!
Agree it most likely won’t.

However, if it had of been used last season we would likely have had 8 premier league wins in a row from late December through to the Newcastle away game. Neither VAR or divine intervention would have helped at Newcastle though...

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:49 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:Agree it most likely won’t.

However, if it had of been used last season we would likely have had 8 premier league wins in a row from late December through to the Newcastle away game. Neither VAR or divine intervention would have helped at Newcastle though...
I think expecting that the Lingard penalty wouldn't have been given with VAR is very optimistic.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Hibsclaret » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:00 pm

I did say likely. The last minute goal would not have stood that’s for sure and the pen could have been missed....Either way, I reckon VAR would have helped us last season on the whole, assuming it was used correctly.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Jeremy_Bentham » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:09 pm

. thinks VAR should just **** off.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:42 pm

Hibsclaret wrote:I did say likely. The last minute goal would not have stood that’s for sure and the pen could have been missed....Either way, I reckon VAR would have helped us last season on the whole, assuming it was used correctly.
I entirely forgot about the possible offside goal, was just thinking of the soft penalty that will still be given under VAR.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Garnerssoap » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:03 pm

The good thing is when we score at the turf next season you can pop downstairs in the bob lord have a bene then come back up in time to celebrate when the var chap gives it
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Falcon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:12 am

I expect after a few months of the season when everyone has got used to it all this 'VAR controversy' media talk will calm down.

Most of the time the 'controversy' is because of how the players/coaches have reacted to a perfectly accurate video ref decision.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by MDWat » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:20 am

. wrote:. thinks VAR should just **** off.
Spot on!

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by NottsClaret » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:28 am

Falcon wrote:I expect after a few months of the season when everyone has got used to it all this 'VAR controversy' media talk will calm down.
It's been around over a year, I'd say there's more controversy and anger towards it than when it was first introduced, and it's not been in the Prem yet.

Obviously it'll kill off the fan's goal celebrations by around October, nobody wants to look a pillock celebrating a VAR disallowed goal anymore. But on the upside, it might reign in the likes of Lingard etc, with their painful choreographed routines. They'd still be on their 14th handshake manoeuvre when the 'VAR Review' sign pops up on the scoreboard.
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Foulthrow » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:32 am

ClaretTony wrote:That’s not a VAR anomaly. That’s the laws for offside.
I can see Ben Mee sawing his own arms off at this rate.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Falcon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:01 am

He's certainly hard enough

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by IanMcL » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:49 pm

VAR or no VAR is getting ridiculous. USA score goal number 3. Offside flag goes up.

Not sure they did a VAR, however, when the TV pundits put a line across, a back foot, pointing away from goal, was the only body part beyond the defender. "Offside", says the pundit.

Farcical!

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Goodclaret » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:09 pm

IanMcL wrote:VAR or no VAR is getting ridiculous. USA score goal number 3. Offside flag goes up.

Not sure they did a VAR, however, when the TV pundits put a line across, a back foot, pointing away from goal, was the only body part beyond the defender. "Offside", says the pundit.

Farcical!
What did you think to the potential penalty shout for France? Some of the handballs I've seen given so far would mean it should have been a pen but this one wasn't. Personally thought it shouldn't have been given but it still doesn't seem consistent to me?!

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:19 pm

Goodclaret wrote:What did you think to the potential penalty shout for France? Some of the handballs I've seen given so far would mean it should have been a pen but this one wasn't. Personally thought it shouldn't have been given but it still doesn't seem consistent to me?!
What people seem to be forgetting is that VAR is operated by people and people will always have their own opinions, particularly when it is something that is not black and white such as handball or a possible foul and even offside to a certain extent.
The authorities, with the use of VAR, are questioning the decisions of the onfield officials and remember that there is not just one VAR operator.
It is officiating by committee which is pathetic. Goal line technology is spot on, however, VAR ..................

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Spijed » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:21 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:What people seem to be forgetting is that VAR is operated by people and people will always have their own opinions, particularly when it is something that is not black and white such as handball or a possible foul and even offside to a certain extent.
The authorities, with the use of VAR, are questioning the decisions of the onfield officials and remember that there is not just one VAR operator.
It is officiating by committee which is pathetic. Goal line technology is spot on, however, VAR ..................
And has been said, viewing an incident in slow-mo is different from real-time.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by bfcmik » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:27 pm

I had thought that VAR was intended to right 'clear and obvious' mistakes which would take seconds for the referee to determine. However, it seems to be being used to check whether every part of the action was OK however minute and barely noticeable - which is what is taking several minutes.
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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by IanMcL » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:02 pm

Goodclaret wrote:What did you think to the potential penalty shout for France? Some of the handballs I've seen given so far would mean it should have been a pen but this one wasn't. Personally thought it shouldn't have been given but it still doesn't seem consistent to me?!
It was balk shot at hand, with no distance, so not a pen, for me. However, when it suited, VAR awarded a pen, just for the fact, rather than the actuality of the event.

That is the huge danger.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by tiger76 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:06 pm

IanMcL wrote:VAR or no VAR is getting ridiculous. USA score goal number 3. Offside flag goes up.

Not sure they did a VAR, however, when the TV pundits put a line across, a back foot, pointing away from goal, was the only body part beyond the defender. "Offside", says the pundit.

Farcical!
The same for Cameroon's "goal" against England,VAR is being overused,it's intention is to correct clear and obvious errors,not to review marginal offside calls,i thought the benefit was supposed to go to the attacking team,what will happen is that players will appeal for anything and everything,in the hope of VAR going in their favour.

Call me cynical but from what i've seen of this World Cup,the VAR has on nearly every occasion given decisions to the perceived bigger nations,let's hope this isn't a foretaste of it's introduction into the PL.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by IanMcL » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:18 pm

Looks that way, Tiger. I agree re Cameroon goal, too.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by FactualFrank » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:24 pm

Just asking for clarification here on people's thoughts.

Do people think the ruled out goal for Cameroon was correct or incorrect?

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by tiger76 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:13 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Just asking for clarification here on people's thoughts.

Do people think the ruled out goal for Cameroon was correct or incorrect?
Strictly by the letter of the law the correct decision was reached,but whether you can argue it's a clear and obvious error is questionable.

As long as VAR is consistent fine,and Germany had a likely penalty shout denied earlier due to a prior offside in the build-up,on reviewing the VAR it was offside by millimetres at the most.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by aggi » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:49 pm

That was a clear penalty in the Sweden game. No idea how it was missed with VAR.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by tiger76 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 pm

aggi wrote:That was a clear penalty in the Sweden game. No idea how it was missed with VAR.
I don't think it was referred to VAR bizarrely,but the Swedes weren't vehement in their appeals,i agree it was a foul probably more of a foul than the England penalty last night.

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Re: VAR at the Women’s World Cup

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:04 am

tiger76 wrote:I don't think it was referred to VAR bizarrely,but the Swedes weren't vehement in their appeals,i agree it was a foul probably more of a foul than the England penalty last night.
The VAR operators obviously thought that there was nothing wrong and that is the problem with VAR ---it is operated by human beings, therefore, it is just someone elses opinion which has needlessly been introduced into the game.
This coming season we will be having decisions made by people who will be miles away from the ground watching on a screen and being selective about what they review.
The only fair way to use VAR is to review every decision because no one decision is more important than another.
Obviously, this will not happen because the game would be too bitty. However, by being selective about what is reviewed, they are saying that the officials can be relied on to do their job except in certain circumstances when someone, not directly involved with the match, can question their decision, however, as was the case in last night's match, it is far from a foolproof system.

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