Is Attenborough right?

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CombatClaret
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CombatClaret » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:04 pm

If it be your will wrote:Ah, rationing. At last. So I'm not the only person on the planet who thinks the answer to environmental disintegration has to involve rationing.

(We shouldn't be afraid to call it that either. There's nothing wrong with rationing.)
I'm also in favour of rationing air travel however I expect even then prices would increase as budget carriers rely on number of passengers.

The finances of air travel is a very interesting subject.
As this graphic illustrates on a flight from Washington to London the 14 people in first class earns the airline more than the 122 people in economy.
However it's been proven impossible to fill an aircraft on any route with just business and first class passengers along so economy are just making up the space. I recommend Wendover Productions as a great Youtube Channel for travel breakdowns and info.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Flight.jpg
Flight.jpg (152.09 KiB) Viewed 2506 times
Last edited by CombatClaret on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DCWat
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by DCWat » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:06 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:Nobody's turned it into a Farage/Robinson thread. We're discussing blatant hypocrisy and deceit - or at least the OP and several others seem to think we are.
You might support these "bellends", a few of your "likes" certainly do, you might not.
FWIW, I think Attenborough's good deeds far outweigh a few airline flights that he might or might not make.
Less the hypocrisy for me and more a lack of agreement with such an approach. I don’t think that penalising the less well off is the way to get everyone engaged in something - not just travel but the need for change in general.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CombatClaret » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:07 pm

LaLigaClaret wrote:The biggest polluters happen to use and produce the most coal in the world. Putting a mean spirited tax that hits the poorest in the UK is not the answer.
I was referring to 'we' as a species not just a country, controversial I know. We should be seeking ways to advance other nations off the most destructive fuels rather than giving up because 'well they do it more', the UK could even make money doing it.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:11 pm

karatekid wrote:Ban all domestic flights of less than 60 minutes flight time. Catch the train instead.
you are kidding, train fares are extortionate. flew down south last year for next to nowt, was going to go for train option but it was hundreds of pounds more expensive. I am not wealthy so more than happy to fly .

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by jrgbfc » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:33 pm

CoolClaret wrote:What is deemed as 'needless'... Your opinion on a messageboard?
I'd say getting a 3 hour flight to sit in a bar and booze all weekend when you could do it in this country is pretty needless, wouldn't you?

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Rileybobs » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:38 pm

jrgbfc wrote:I'd say getting a 3 hour flight to sit in a bar and booze all weekend when you could do it in this country is pretty needless, wouldn't you?
Almost everything we do is needless.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CoolClaret » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:13 am

jrgbfc wrote:I'd say getting a 3 hour flight to sit in a bar and booze all weekend when you could do it in this country is pretty needless, wouldn't you?
I'd say by that logic absolutely anything that isn't essential for the continuation of the species is 'needless'

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Lowbankclaret » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:22 am

Rileybobs wrote:Almost everything we do is needless.
No everything we do orientates around profit.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Wile E Coyote » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:45 am

SirAlec wrote:It may seem hypocritical but the work he has done flying around the world raising awareness about plastic in the ocean and other environmental issues, I’m guessing has offset his carbon footprint? I doubt he’d of had the same impact sat In a tv studio.

If raising the cost of flights means some people have to go on holiday in the uk rather than Spain or wherever than I’m all for it.
arrogant nonsense, and based on nothingness. shame on you.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:23 am

randomclaret2 wrote:Celebrity Environmentalists rely on Jet Travel to get around the world lecturing people
Selfish twot!

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:30 am

Billy Balfour wrote:I turn off when I read or see wealthy and privileged individuals telling us not to do the very same things that they have done or are doing.
Ever seen Planet Earth?..Blue Planet?....Our Planet?...David Attenborough has done more, to reveal the destruction of our perfect jewel of a Planet, and to show its wonders.....Therefore encouraging people around the world to save what's left, than anyone else i can think of.......His air miles are irrelevant, the good far outweighs the bad........you however are wasting valuable Oxygen!

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:39 am

So many thick, selfish, Cnuts on this board...........DEPRESSING!

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:47 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:So many thick, selfish, Cnuts on this board...........DEPRESSING!
Are they the ones that have a different opinion to you ?
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:34 am

jrgbfc wrote:I'd say getting a 3 hour flight to sit in a bar and booze all weekend when you could do it in this country is pretty needless, wouldn't you?
You mean British people going abroad to behave exactly like they would back here is pointless?
Yeah, but they've been doing it for years bizarrely.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by BurnleyFC » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:41 am

I heard he travels everywhere on his brother’s sleigh.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Clarets4me » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:59 am

SirAlec wrote:It may seem hypocritical but the work he has done flying around the world raising awareness about plastic in the ocean and other environmental issues, I’m guessing has offset his carbon footprint? I doubt he’d of had the same impact sat In a tv studio.

If raising the cost of flights means some people have to go on holiday in the uk rather than Spain or wherever than I’m all for it.
This issue was around in the 1970's, when " Friends of the Earth " first came to prominance ...

I remember well a TV discussion between a middle class female Environmental campaigner, and the Labour Cabinet minister, Anthony Crosland. She proposed punative taxes on airtravel, which would produce " an enormous reduction in demand ". Crosland, MP for Great Girmsby, retorted, " Yes indeed, the rich would proceed in leisurely fashion across Europe and the Oceans to the beauty spots, where they could park up their expensive cars. As for the majority of my constituents, who have only a fortnight's holiday, let them eat cake, and go back to the Boarding houses, of Blackpool and Skegness ! "

This was, of course, back in the days when the Labour party still represented working class folk ....

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Hipper » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:25 am

All those saying it would penalise the poorest are also being hypocritical. There are now 'the poorest' people in the UK who can't fly, or afford a car etc.. There was a time when most of us were like that, in the 1950s say. What has happened is that air travel (any travel) has become more efficient and more affordable. It's time to reverse this trend. The environmental price is too high.

If you are really concerned about equality then why not remove the money from the rich and give to the poor? It will then be argued that 'I earned my money and I will spend it how I like'.

It's clear that at the moment we are flying to our doom. Attenborough is right. It doesn't matter who the messenger of this information is - it's the message we should be listening to.
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Hipper » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:35 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48929632" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by willsclarets » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:45 am

I'm not sure why being rich precludes you from either having an opinion or trying to make the world a better place. Bill Gates has done brilliant things in healthcare and education he would otherwise had not been able to do. There are several other examples of people putting their wealth to good use. It doesn't mean all rich people are a net benefit to society but plenty are.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:51 am

randomclaret2 wrote:Celebrity Environmentalists rely on Jet Travel to get around the world lecturing people

The support legislation to make air travel less impactful on the environment.

Oh, that's right. The whole point of your ad hominem argument is to avoid that.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:05 am

Apparently, one time David Attenborough’s black bin was full so he discarded some used tin foil in his green, recyclable waste bin. Not sure if it’s true, but a pretty scummy thing to do if it is.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:07 am

Rileybobs wrote:Apparently, one time David Attenborough’s black bin was full so he discarded some used tin foil in his green, recyclable waste bin. Not sure if it’s true, but a pretty scummy thing to do if it is.
And therefore anything he says is irrelevant and to be ignored. I think that's the point idiots are making when they criticise environmentalists for having a carbon footprint.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Billy Balfour » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:43 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:Nobody's turned it into a Farage/Robinson thread. We're discussing blatant hypocrisy and deceit - or at least the OP and several others seem to think we are.
You might support these "bellends", a few of your "likes" certainly do, you might
You were the one who mentioned them in post (11). BTW I can't let the rest of your post go without without comment.

I think you had better point out where a few on my 'likes' have shown that I support Farage or Robinson?

Do you always make lies up about people who post on here? Is this how low you stoop in order to make a point? Pretty sad and pathetic. Like I said - show me where I have supported Farage or Robinson on here.

I'll wait with bated breath.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:17 pm

Billy Balfour wrote:I turn off when I read or see wealthy and privileged individuals telling us not to do the very same things that they have done or are doing.
He's probably thinking of your petulant comments!......similar to the above.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Cryssys » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:27 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote: What about make all new houses have 5kw solar on the roof, designers would organise new estates would be designed to harness renewable energy. Think outside the box to make a difference, not within it.
Spot on. I believe that all new houses in Germany must have solar panels installed. Why on earth it isn't a legal requirement in the UK is beyond me.
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Rileybobs » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:16 pm

Cryssys wrote:Spot on. I believe that all new houses in Germany must have solar panels installed. Why on earth it isn't a legal requirement in the UK is beyond me.
Not sure that solar panels are very efficient in the UK. There’s more sunshine in Germany. New housing developments in the UK are required to take a more fabric-first approach which minimises the energy use of the building throughout its life.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:13 am

Rileybobs wrote:Not sure that solar panels are very efficient in the UK. There’s more sunshine in Germany. New housing developments in the UK are required to take a more fabric-first approach which minimises the energy use of the building throughout its life.
Not sure you get the idea, generate your own electric, charge your own car.

Oh yes there’s the issue, massive loss in tax revenue. Ffs don’t want that.

Money rules the world, thing outside of that and its the answer that government will stop due to loss of taxes.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CJW » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:03 am

LoveCurryPies wrote: What does worry me is population growth. 7.7billion people now but an additional 4billion by the end of the century. All needing food, power and transportation.
This ^ all day long.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Hipper » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:06 am

Electric cars not perfect solution:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Taffy on the wing » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:30 pm

Hipper wrote:Electric cars not perfect solution:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Silly, nonsense of an article!

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:25 am

Hipper wrote:Electric cars not perfect solution:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48944561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More bothered about stuff like this really, https://phys.org/news/2018-09-scientist ... lt-dr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As though Electric cars are gonna be this great big saviour.

Want to help the planet? Get public transport or walk, or buy an old unwanted car and run it for as long as possible...

This leasing model we have with new cars being produced constantly uses way more emissions than running an old diesel motor (one that isn't completely ****** mind) would.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by mikeS » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:20 pm

Trains made the switch from coal and diesel to electric. Cars are making the switch from petrol and diesel to electric. Could planes to do the same?

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 pm

The root of all evil

Climate change
housing shortages
lack of jobs
plastic in the oceans
traffic congestion
bed shortages in hospitals

There is just too many people on this planet, and every day, nay every second, it gets worse. Until the human race addresses this problem then we are all just ******* in the wind. Dealing or trying to deal with the symptoms instead of dealing with the disease.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CoolClaret » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:11 pm

mikeS wrote:Trains made the switch from coal and diesel to electric. Cars are making the switch from petrol and diesel to electric. Could planes to do the same?
Absolutely not, the size of the batteries would be absolutely ginormous & would be far too heavy.

& fighting M*G*H is always a struggle; the energy requirements are insane.

Nuclear on the other hand....

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by mikeS » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:20 pm

From Google
“A: The Boeing 737-800 is an example of an average sized airplane. It has a maximum takeoff weight of about 80,000 kg (175,000 lbs). This includes the weight of the plane, which is about 41,000 kg (90,000 lbs), and the weight of the fuel which is about 18,000 kg (40,000 lbs)”

Just wondered if any research has been done into aircraft using electric engine powered planes, and if electric engines could be made with equivalent power and thrust to weight ratio as used by current jet fuelled engines.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:47 am

This place broke 20C on Sunday and Monday.

Image

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/he ... -1.5212801" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:04 am

Possible new Jet2 destinaton
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:22 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:The root of all evil

Climate change
housing shortages
lack of jobs
plastic in the oceans
traffic congestion
bed shortages in hospitals

There is just too many people on this planet, and every day, nay every second, it gets worse. Until the human race addresses this problem then we are all just ******* in the wind. Dealing or trying to deal with the symptoms instead of dealing with the disease.
One of the answers is dealing with countries that have high infant mortality rates.
There are reasons why people in poorer countries churn out lots of kids and it's partly due to them half expecting their kids to not make it to adulthood.
Then when they move to a better country they carry on churning out lots of kids, because it's a cultural pattern.

We used to be the same in the UK, due to higher infant mortality rates, but we've tailed off a bit now thankfully.
My Nan was one of 12 kids for example, whereas my dad and Aunties only had 2-4 kids each.
Me and my brother have 2 each max as do our cousin's and it isn't just down to the cost of living.

Yet there are families in the UK who still have the cultural mindset to have large families.

Yes we have poorer people in the UK who are from British only backgrounds churning out kids, but it's not as prevalent as it was back when my Nan was born.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:30 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:One of the answers is dealing with countries that have high infant mortality rates.
There are reasons why people in poorer countries churn out lots of kids and it's partly due to them half expecting their kids to not make it to adulthood.
Then when they move to a better country they carry on churning out lots of kids, because it's a cultural pattern.

We used to be the same in the UK, due to higher infant mortality rates, but we've tailed off a bit now thankfully.
My Nan was one of 12 kids for example, whereas my dad and Aunties only had 2-4 kids each.
Me and my brother have 2 each max as do our cousin's and it isn't just down to the cost of living.

Yet there are families in the UK who still have the cultural mindset to have large families.

Yes we have poorer people in the UK who are from British only backgrounds churning out kids, but it's not as prevalent as it was back when my Nan was born.
Also:
Birth control

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:31 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Also:
Birth control
Yeah, but unfortunately religion has a firm grip in a number of these countries and they don't encourage birth control....
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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Hipper » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:35 am

Taffy on the wing wrote:Silly, nonsense of an article!
Maybe but braking seems a silly loss of energy - rotational energy to heat. If that rotational energy could be converted to electricity it could be reused.

That's what some electric locomotives do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_brake" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:35 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yeah, but unfortunately religion has a firm grip in a number of these countries and they don't encourage birth control....
Wait. You're saying we should be having fewer kids? Oh. Ok. Well, that's dumb.

How do you propose we pay for our society when we all retire and there's no one left to work to pay the taxes that fund our capitalist utopia, because we were successful in encouraging people to have fewer kids?

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:44 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Wait. You're saying we should be having fewer kids? Oh. Ok. Well, that's dumb.

How do you propose we pay for our society when we all retire and there's no one left to work to pay the taxes that fund our capitalist utopia, because we were successful in encouraging people to have fewer kids?
Sigh, you're looking for an argument again aren't you?

If overpopulation is an issue, which it is, what's your answer Mr Know it all?

I've merely said we need to look at poorer countries and help them out.
We pour millions upon millions into these countries and they're still having the same issues.
Yet the richer countries also help to cripple the poorer ones due to rising debt levels so things can't get any better.

I'm not going to fight all day with you, because that's what you want and clearly you're the expert on yet another subject.
I put across an opinion, if you don't like it, you'll chuck out some names in my direction and I'll get on with my day like usual.

Have fun

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:06 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Sigh, you're looking for an argument again aren't you?

If overpopulation is an issue, which it is, what's your answer Mr Know it all?

I've merely said we need to look at poorer countries and help them out.
We pour millions upon millions into these countries and they're still having the same issues.
Yet the richer countries also help to cripple the poorer ones due to rising debt levels so things can't get any better.

I'm not going to fight all day with you, because that's what you want and clearly you're the expert on yet another subject.
I put across an opinion, if you don't like it, you'll chuck out some names in my direction and I'll get on with my day like usual.

Have fun
You don't have a solution either. What you're talking about as a "solution" would lead to the complete collapse of society, just like climate change would, only with a different cause.

When you consider a solution to mean something that actually solves the problem then you have presented exactly as many solutions as I have.

And i'm not looking for an argument, because it's not up for debate. Your idea isn't a solution.

Unless you want to go around slaughtering people then there's no viable solution to the planet's overpopulation problem within the next couple of centuries. The mathematics of this are so basic that i don't even need to calculate them. Life expectancy is rising because science is advancing. Should we stop? No. So Are we doing to stop births? No, because then we'd have to lower life expectancy to below retirement age, which we're not going to do. So... what?

Basically, shut the **** up about over-population. It's a worthless topic of discussion because there's no solution to it that we are willing to take that would actually work. So focus on something where a solution is palatable.
The only reason anyone is talking about over-population in the context of climate change is if they want to distract you from talking about something that can actually solve the problem, or if you are one fo the people fooled into being distracted away from talking about something that can actually solve the problem.

It's like you're in a sinking ship and you're trying to solve the problem by reducing the sea level.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Colburn_Claret » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You don't have a solution either. What you're talking about as a "solution" would lead to the complete collapse of society, just like climate change would, only with a different cause.

When you consider a solution to mean something that actually solves the problem then you have presented exactly as many solutions as I have.

And i'm not looking for an argument, because it's not up for debate. Your idea isn't a solution.
He never gave a solution , just acknowledged that over population of the planet is a massive contributor to climate change.

However your suggestion that we need to keep knocking out as many kids as possible, in order to fund the utopian life style of presumably, pensioners, is totally bonkers.

I'd start by only paying child benefit on the first two children only. If people feel the need to have more children than that, then they should pay for their upkeep themselves.
If that doesn't address the problem I'd cut it to one.

The sad truth is we wont be the ones to pay the price of overpopulation, it will be our children or grandchildren. When there isnt enough to go around for everyone to share, it leads to conflict, and conflict leads to wars. It would be a very sad world if the only solution to overpopulation is war.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:31 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
However your suggestion that we need to keep knocking out as many kids as possible, in order to fund the utopian life style of presumably, pensioners, is totally bonkers.

If you're just going to make **** up then what's the point of even discussing things with you?

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by CJW » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:32 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:
I'd start by only paying child benefit on the first two children only.
No.
If you can't afford to support your own offspring under your own finances, don't have any.
Abolish child benefit.

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:37 pm

CJW wrote:No.
If you can't afford to support your own offspring under your own finances, don't have any.
Abolish child benefit.
Colburn's idea was already pretty silly, but you just decided to drive that silly-mobile right off the cliff of moronic, didn't you?
:roll:

This idea would destroy the economy, unless you're willing to welcome in unlimited numbers of immigrants to pay the taxes required to fund the healthcare and pensions of the elderly.

You ok with immigrants coming here to do the jobs we're too old to do?

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by ClaretSteve » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:42 pm

Thanos has a good idea
This user liked this post: CJW

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Re: Is Attenborough right?

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Notice how this has worked? A thread about climate change, which is caused by the burning of fossil fuels. The fossil fuel industry doesn't want us talking about that so they plant seeds of doubt in society. One of those seeds grows into "but it's because of over population" and now we're talking about child benefits to solve an over-population problem that doesn't really exist. So imagine this conversation we're having now, but on a global scale, and realise that thsi is how we've managed to avoid taking the action we needed to take to solve this climate crisis.


And by the by, it's interesting since another of those seeds has grown into "we're too small a country to affect the climate while China, India, America..." and yet that doesn't seem to be a concern when discussing this so-called global over-population. Funny that.

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