Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:25 pm

martin_p wrote:What language is it, specifically, that ‘follows the style of some posters on here’?
He hasn't read what Darroch sent, so how would he know?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by PutTheWheelieBinsOut » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:57 pm

So lets get this right we paid Kim Darroch all these pounds just to come up with an assessment that the average man in the street could have come up with about Trump.

His job is to be a diplomat and represent her Majesty abroad. Not to rant about political leaders. Fortunately civil servants do not decide the next Prime Minister or President.

No sympathy at all for him, he has chosen to make a grandstanding departure and try to put himself into the political debate of who is the next Prime Minister instead of departing quietly. If he had wanted to enter into politics he should have chosen to stand for as an MP for parliament and not chosen to be a civil servant in the foreign office.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:00 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:So lets get this right we paid Kim Darroch all these pounds just to come up with an assessment that the average man in the street could have come up with about Trump.

His job is to be a diplomat and represent her Majesty abroad. Not to rant about political leaders. Fortunately civil servants do not decide the next Prime Minister or President.

No sympathy at all for him, he has chosen to make a grandstanding departure and try to put himself into the political debate of who is the next Prime Minister instead of departing quietly. If he had wanted to enter into politics he should have chosen to stand for as an MP for parliament and not chosen to be a civil servant in the foreign office.
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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by aggi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:01 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:So lets get this right we paid Kim Darroch all these pounds just to come up with an assessment that the average man in the street could have come up with about Trump.

His job is to be a diplomat and represent her Majesty abroad. Not to rant about political leaders. Fortunately civil servants do not decide the next Prime Minister or President.

No sympathy at all for him, he has chosen to make a grandstanding departure and try to put himself into the political debate of who is the next Prime Minister instead of departing quietly. If he had wanted to enter into politics he should have chosen to stand for as an MP for parliament and not chosen to be a civil servant in the foreign office.
You realise the ambassador's job isn't just handing out the Ferrero Rocher at parties? He is employed to give honest assessments of the country, including its leaders, where he is posted.

And you're saying he leaked all the documents to make a grandstanding departure? It's a brave call.
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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:18 pm

PutTheWheelieBinsOut wrote:So lets get this right we paid Kim Darroch all these pounds just to come up with an assessment that the average man in the street could have come up with about Trump.

His job is to be a diplomat and represent her Majesty abroad. Not to rant about political leaders. Fortunately civil servants do not decide the next Prime Minister or President.

No sympathy at all for him, he has chosen to make a grandstanding departure and try to put himself into the political debate of who is the next Prime Minister instead of departing quietly. If he had wanted to enter into politics he should have chosen to stand for as an MP for parliament and not chosen to be a civil servant in the foreign office.
A whopper of a post. Completely clueless about what's happened and yet no doubt absolutely certain in his opinion.

"chosen to make a grandstanding departure" for Christ's sake :lol:

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:47 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You haven't even read what he said, and yet you're so sure he was inappropriate.
Has anyone read what was in the leaked docs? All I can find are a few "quotes" in MoS article. Having read them, I'm puzzled as to why everyone appears to have got "so excited" by them.

And, that's not just "everyone" on here. I'm not sure that ITV didn't "over-hype" the leaks in the BJ v JH debate. What was JH defending? Why ae people so "aggitated" that BJ, as PM, might want to appoint someone else.

What was it that got you "so excited?"

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:51 pm

Greenmile wrote:And what exactly is “your case”, Paul? That Darroch should have lied to his employers in a secure encrypted communication on the off-chance that someone might have leaked it and upset the snowflake president? Or that people sometimes swear on a messageboard and that upsets you?
Hi Gm, see my other responses this evening.

Message board styles? No, never "upset." Puzzled why people feel that's the way to post on a mb, nothing more.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:55 pm

elwaclaret wrote:No but private emails to your superior are just that Paul. He didn’t make his comments public someone else did that for him. If he think that Trump is a clown and the Whitehouse is in turmoil, absolutely he should be referring that back and holding no punches.... it’s is a big part of why we keep ambassadors.
Hi elwa, OK, see my other responses. From the quotes I've seen - are any of the documents available to read in full? - I don't see anywhere that KD refers to DT as "a clown." All pretty moderate language. Based on what we all know/have seen/has been in the US press/DT's tweets etc etc etc. Nothing that KD has reported in his leaks that I find "undiplomatic."

What's puzzling me - why all the excitement?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:58 pm

martin_p wrote:What language is it, specifically, that ‘follows the style of some posters on here’?
Hi martin, see my other posts this evening. Do you know where I can read what KD's "leaked cables" actually said - instead of what many people are saying that they said?

From the "quotes" I've now seen in MoS, I can't see anything that is remotely like the language used my "some posters on here." Professional and "diplomatic" is my view.

Have you any idea why "everyone" appears to have been filled with "shock horror" etc, etc?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by martin_p » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:00 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Has anyone read what was in the leaked docs? All I can find are a few "quotes" in MoS article. Having read them, I'm puzzled as to why everyone appears to have got "so excited" by them.

And, that's not just "everyone" on here. I'm not sure that ITV didn't "over-hype" the leaks in the BJ v JH debate. What was JH defending? Why ae people so "aggitated" that BJ, as PM, might want to appoint someone else.

What was it that got you "so excited?"
It’d stop you looking a bit silly if you took the trouble to read the story you were commenting on. Some of your posts last night look a little ridiculous. And to answer your question, the only people getting excited about the contents of the leak were Trump and his cronies (both here and abroad). People (including the PM and Jeremy Hunt) the sought to defend Darroch against the attack from Trump which used significantly more inflammatory language than the leaked material. Trump’s attack and the subsequent lack of support from our future PM made Darroch’s position untenable.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by martin_p » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:01 pm

Paul Waine wrote: Have you any idea why "everyone" appears to have been filled with "shock horror" etc, etc?
Because they’ve jumped into comment on a story they haven’t actually read.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:04 pm

And if you want to look closer to home on this messageboard why dont you direct your question to the right wing nutjobs who were the actual ones getting upset. There's several on this thread alone so shouldn't be too difficult for you to identify them

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:07 pm

martin_p wrote:It’d stop you looking a bit silly if you took the trouble to read the story you were commenting on. Some of your posts last night look a little ridiculous. And to answer your question, the only people getting excited about the contents of the leak were Trump and his cronies (both here and abroad). People (including the PM and Jeremy Hunt) the sought to defend Darroch against the attack from Trump which used significantly more inflammatory language than the leaked material. Trump’s attack and the subsequent lack of support from our future PM made Darroch’s position untenable.
Hi martin, yes, a little lesson for me not to pay attention to what's going on in the media - and, including this site - and get to the source(s) myself. Sorry, been busy at work most of this week, so didn't do that. No worries, I don't mind a little "silly" or "ridiculous."

What I don't get - and, appreciate, if you can assist me - why are so many people on here getting "excited?" Why do we have 2 threads on the same subject? Why have we got a few people saying that KD said "this" or KD said "that?"

Aren't we all used to DT's " excitements?" Aren't we all used to DT's "inflammatory language?"

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by elwaclaret » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:12 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi elwa, OK, see my other responses. From the quotes I've seen - are any of the documents available to read in full? - I don't see anywhere that KD refers to DT as "a clown." All pretty moderate language. Based on what we all know/have seen/has been in the US press/DT's tweets etc etc etc. Nothing that KD has reported in his leaks that I find "undiplomatic."

What's puzzling me - why all the excitement?
The excitement comes from several sources, it is Trump. It otherwise would be a serious security breech in its own right. By the very nature of the relationship an ambassador is encouraged to be as plain speaking as possible so as to avoid misinterpretation. The deal is that it remains secure so the honest “gut” of the agent is not exposed beyond those intended. I’m sure there are some worried people both on the ground and in the ivory towers; that a newspaper Is able to access secret private documents.

Ask any Plummer, you can’t pick and chose your leaks. It is a very serious breech of trust and protocol... pretty much the very core of our systems, just imagine you were working in Putin’s kitchen right now as an agent... how great do you feel?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by aggi » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:42 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi elwa, OK, see my other responses. From the quotes I've seen - are any of the documents available to read in full? - I don't see anywhere that KD refers to DT as "a clown." All pretty moderate language. Based on what we all know/have seen/has been in the US press/DT's tweets etc etc etc. Nothing that KD has reported in his leaks that I find "undiplomatic."

What's puzzling me - why all the excitement?
Regardless of the content, someone's leaked 30 months worth of very confidential documents. That is a huge issue.

The content itself would be less of an issue if the president of the United States didn't have the temperament of a small child. As he has we have the unedifying spectacle of the US President calling the British ambassador a very stupid guy and various other insults. That is clearly going to be a news story.

In terms of who found it offensive. It was mainly just the aforementioned child president and Rowls.
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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:59 am

aggi wrote: Regardless of the content, someone's leaked 30 months worth of very confidential documents. That is a huge issue.

The content itself would be less of an issue if the president of the United States didn't have the temperament of a small child. As he has we have the unedifying spectacle of the US President calling the British ambassador a very stupid guy and various other insults. That is clearly going to be a news story.

In terms of who found it offensive. It was mainly just the aforementioned child president and Rowls.
elwaclaret wrote:The excitement comes from several sources, it is Trump. It otherwise would be a serious security breech in its own right. By the very nature of the relationship an ambassador is encouraged to be as plain speaking as possible so as to avoid misinterpretation. The deal is that it remains secure so the honest “gut” of the agent is not exposed beyond those intended. I’m sure there are some worried people both on the ground and in the ivory towers; that a newspaper Is able to access secret private documents.

Ask any plumber, you can’t pick and chose your leaks. It is a very serious breech of trust and protocol... pretty much the very core of our systems, just imagine you were working in Putin’s kitchen right now as an agent... how great do you feel?
Few thoughts/responses:

1) we've all got used to DT - surely, no one's excited any more about his "uncomventional" style;
2) we also see many leaks, this isn't the first, it won't be the last. Maybe it's the first leak of diplomatic cables, though I doubt even that;
3) As I've said, having read the very little that is available, there's nothing "astounding" or even "new" in KD's cables - just "sound," "sensible" and "professional" diplomatic commentary on the situation with DT and Washington;
4) aggi, if you are getting "excited" by DT calling KD "a very stupid guy" it's possibly best not to comment at the same level and refer to DT as having "the temperament of a small child." Are you offended that the US has a "child president" as you describe him?
5) elwa, are we really concerned that "a newspaper is able to access secret private documents?" or that someone gave a newspaper - does it matter if the docs were given to MoS, Telegraph or Guardian? - or that someone inside the "government circles" has collected some docs and decided to leak them?
6) Is the leaker another member of the government? or someone who has been a member of the government? or a civil servant? I'm pretty sure we can rule out anyone outside these circles. If Putin has access to our secrets, then what KD thinks about DT is not worth so much to risk losing the "access" for "really important stuff" - such as which of the kitchen staff in Putin's kitchen is working for MI5/6 (or is 007)!
7) I don't know if it's reported accurately, it's been suggested that diplomatic cables are destroyed after 3 months. For me, this makes sense, because will there still be anything of significant value in an opinion that was written 4 months, or more, back. Won't you be asking the ambassador for a new assessment? If the "destroy after 3 months" is correct - then it looks like someone has been collecting these docs over the past 30 months. So, does that narrow the search? there's certainly been a lot of "comings and goings" among ministers, is there a junior minister that's been in FCO all this time? Do junior ministers get access to these diplomatic cables?
8) Is the leak a "friend of BJ" or a "friend of JH" action - both of them have been FCO, but neither thru the 30 months period. And, what would either gain, doesn't it just create more fuss as their leadership contest draws to conclusion?
9) Is this a leak from someone with an opposing view? Surely not any of the candidates who have dropped out of the leadership contest earlier on?
10: Is it an "anti-Trump" leak? DT has just been "made happy" by his "pussy cat, pussy cat" visit to London to see the Queen.
11) Or, has it got something to do with Brexit? Apart from KD's previous post being in Brussells, I can't see any serious connection. Nor can I see any leak from the current Ambassador to EU, or any of the Brexit negotiating team, revealing anything that would be a big surprise.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:23 am

Paul Waine wrote:Few thoughts/responses:

1) we've all got used to DT - surely, no one's excited any more about his "uncomventional" style;
2) we also see many leaks, this isn't the first, it won't be the last. Maybe it's the first leak of diplomatic cables, though I doubt even that;
3) As I've said, having read the very little that is available, there's nothing "astounding" or even "new" in KD's cables - just "sound," "sensible" and "professional" diplomatic commentary on the situation with DT and Washington;
4) aggi, if you are getting "excited" by DT calling KD "a very stupid guy" it's possibly best not to comment at the same level and refer to DT as having "the temperament of a small child." Are you offended that the US has a "child president" as you describe him?
5) elwa, are we really concerned that "a newspaper is able to access secret private documents?" or that someone gave a newspaper - does it matter if the docs were given to MoS, Telegraph or Guardian? - or that someone inside the "government circles" has collected some docs and decided to leak them?
6) Is the leaker another member of the government? or someone who has been a member of the government? or a civil servant? I'm pretty sure we can rule out anyone outside these circles. If Putin has access to our secrets, then what KD thinks about DT is not worth so much to risk losing the "access" for "really important stuff" - such as which of the kitchen staff in Putin's kitchen is working for MI5/6 (or is 007)!
7) I don't know if it's reported accurately, it's been suggested that diplomatic cables are destroyed after 3 months. For me, this makes sense, because will there still be anything of significant value in an opinion that was written 4 months, or more, back. Won't you be asking the ambassador for a new assessment? If the "destroy after 3 months" is correct - then it looks like someone has been collecting these docs over the past 30 months. So, does that narrow the search? there's certainly been a lot of "comings and goings" among ministers, is there a junior minister that's been in FCO all this time? Do junior ministers get access to these diplomatic cables?
8) Is the leak a "friend of BJ" or a "friend of JH" action - both of them have been FCO, but neither thru the 30 months period. And, what would either gain, doesn't it just create more fuss as their leadership contest draws to conclusion?
9) Is this a leak from someone with an opposing view? Surely not any of the candidates who have dropped out of the leadership contest earlier on?
10: Is it an "anti-Trump" leak? DT has just been "made happy" by his "pussy cat, pussy cat" visit to London to see the Queen.
11) Or, has it got something to do with Brexit? Apart from KD's previous post being in Brussells, I can't see any serious connection. Nor can I see any leak from the current Ambassador to EU, or any of the Brexit negotiating team, revealing anything that would be a big surprise.
You’ve missed out Boris Johnson in all of this who, when he had a clear opportunity to assert his backing for KD, refused to give it, precipitating KD’s resignation. It’s not for Donald Trump to say who is and who isn’t acceptable as U.K. ambassador, so by refusing to back KD Johnson was either signalling to Trump: “I’m your man” in which case he was also signalling to the the diplomatic corps that as prime minister he was happy to use and lose them as pawns in the service of his own greater good, or he was ignorant that he would be sending this message.

We don’t know who the leaker is (or are), but we do know they leaked to someone with very close ties to the Brexit Party. Was the leak in the national interest? It doesn’t seem like a watergate moment. So far the public have just lost a valuable civil servant.

Finally our reaction to Trump’s tweets - again mostly by Johnson - has been pitiful.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:40 am

AndrewJB wrote:You’ve missed out Boris Johnson in all of this who, when he had a clear opportunity to assert his backing for KD, refused to give it, precipitating KD’s resignation. It’s not for Donald Trump to say who is and who isn’t acceptable as U.K. ambassador, so by refusing to back KD Johnson was either signalling to Trump: “I’m your man” in which case he was also signalling to the the diplomatic corps that as prime minister he was happy to use and lose them as pawns in the service of his own greater good, or he was ignorant that he would be sending this message.

We don’t know who the leaker is (or are), but we do know they leaked to someone with very close ties to the Brexit Party. Was the leak in the national interest? It doesn’t seem like a watergate moment. So far the public have just lost a valuable civil servant.

Finally our reaction to Trump’s tweets - again mostly by Johnson - has been pitiful.
Hi Andrew, have I really missed out BJ? "Friends of BJ" were amomg those I've consider as among the list of possible leakers, but I can't see what BJ has to gain.

I agree, it's not for DT to pick and choose the UK's ambassador. But, I don't agree that BJ "not backing" KD was the only reason KD resigned. Surely the leaks are the cause - and DT's reaction to the leak. Don't we need an ambassador in Washington (as in every other country) that can do their job?

I'm not sure "the public have just lost a valuable civil servant." How many knew this guy's name before these leaks? How can we "value" someone we didn't even know existed? And, he was going to retire in a few months time anyway. I can't get excited over someone leaving their job 6 months early.

But, if you are telling me that "all the excitement" has been about brexit and BJ, then, fair enough. It's just another "brexit storm." We've had pety of those already. Makes me wonder if the leaker isn't someone on the remain side, because I still can't see what anyone who favours brexit will gain from this.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by aggi » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:52 am

Paul Waine wrote:Few thoughts/responses:

1) we've all got used to DT - surely, no one's excited any more about his "uncomventional" style;
2) we also see many leaks, this isn't the first, it won't be the last. Maybe it's the first leak of diplomatic cables, though I doubt even that;
3) As I've said, having read the very little that is available, there's nothing "astounding" or even "new" in KD's cables - just "sound," "sensible" and "professional" diplomatic commentary on the situation with DT and Washington;
4) aggi, if you are getting "excited" by DT calling KD "a very stupid guy" it's possibly best not to comment at the same level and refer to DT as having "the temperament of a small child." Are you offended that the US has a "child president" as you describe him?
5) elwa, are we really concerned that "a newspaper is able to access secret private documents?" or that someone gave a newspaper - does it matter if the docs were given to MoS, Telegraph or Guardian? - or that someone inside the "government circles" has collected some docs and decided to leak them?
6) Is the leaker another member of the government? or someone who has been a member of the government? or a civil servant? I'm pretty sure we can rule out anyone outside these circles. If Putin has access to our secrets, then what KD thinks about DT is not worth so much to risk losing the "access" for "really important stuff" - such as which of the kitchen staff in Putin's kitchen is working for MI5/6 (or is 007)!
7) I don't know if it's reported accurately, it's been suggested that diplomatic cables are destroyed after 3 months. For me, this makes sense, because will there still be anything of significant value in an opinion that was written 4 months, or more, back. Won't you be asking the ambassador for a new assessment? If the "destroy after 3 months" is correct - then it looks like someone has been collecting these docs over the past 30 months. So, does that narrow the search? there's certainly been a lot of "comings and goings" among ministers, is there a junior minister that's been in FCO all this time? Do junior ministers get access to these diplomatic cables?
8) Is the leak a "friend of BJ" or a "friend of JH" action - both of them have been FCO, but neither thru the 30 months period. And, what would either gain, doesn't it just create more fuss as their leadership contest draws to conclusion?
9) Is this a leak from someone with an opposing view? Surely not any of the candidates who have dropped out of the leadership contest earlier on?
10: Is it an "anti-Trump" leak? DT has just been "made happy" by his "pussy cat, pussy cat" visit to London to see the Queen.
11) Or, has it got something to do with Brexit? Apart from KD's previous post being in Brussells, I can't see any serious connection. Nor can I see any leak from the current Ambassador to EU, or any of the Brexit negotiating team, revealing anything that would be a big surprise.
I didn't say I was getting excited by it. However, the US president insulting the UK Ambassador in that way is always going to be a big news story. There's a couple of differences between me saying the US president has the temperament of a small guy and the US president describing a UK ambassador as a very stupid guy:
One, the evidence suggests that my description was correct and Trump's wasnt.
Two, I'm just a random nobody talking to half a dozen people on the internet; he's the US president addressing the world. You would expect a different tone.

There have been leaks before and there undoubtedly will be again. However, this appears to be a pretty high level one with a lot of content which makes it interesting. On top of that the motivation is a bit unclear. Is it trying to purge the civil service of Remain supporters, to do with the leadership contest, is it to embarrass Trump, embarrass Darroch, the Uk, America, etc?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Ilkley claret » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:55 am

Two words sum all of this up


Gavin Williamson

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by AndrewJB » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:56 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Andrew, have I really missed out BJ? "Friends of BJ" were amomg those I've consider as among the list of possible leakers, but I can't see what BJ has to gain.

I agree, it's not for DT to pick and choose the UK's ambassador. But, I don't agree that BJ "not backing" KD was the only reason KD resigned. Surely the leaks are the cause - and DT's reaction to the leak. Don't we need an ambassador in Washington (as in every other country) that can do their job?

I'm not sure "the public have just lost a valuable civil servant." How many knew this guy's name before these leaks? How can we "value" someone we didn't even know existed? And, he was going to retire in a few months time anyway. I can't get excited over someone leaving their job 6 months early.

But, if you are telling me that "all the excitement" has been about brexit and BJ, then, fair enough. It's just another "brexit storm." We've had pety of those already. Makes me wonder if the leaker isn't someone on the remain side, because I still can't see what anyone who favours brexit will gain from this.
I don’t know the names of any serving firefighters or ambulance drivers, but I don’t doubt their value. I think Darroch could have continued in his job, had Johnson expressed confidence in him (as ambassador he’d be liaising with people lower down the chain from Trump anyway). That he declined to do so is apparently why Darroch resigned. Again either Johnson was ignorant, or he’s just shown his lack of metal; when it comes to pleasing Trump there isn’t a hoop Johnson won’t jump through, or a career that isn’t worth wrecking.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:09 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I don’t know the names of any serving firefighters or ambulance drivers, but I don’t doubt their value. I think Darroch could have continued in his job, had Johnson expressed confidence in him (as ambassador he’d be liaising with people lower down the chain from Trump anyway). That he declined to do so is apparently why Darroch resigned. Again either Johnson was ignorant, or he’s just shown his lack of metal; when it comes to pleasing Trump there isn’t a hoop Johnson won’t jump through, or a career that isn’t worth wrecking.
Did Hunt express confidence in Darroch out of interest?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Devils_Advocate » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 pm

Paul W: You seem to be just waffling and throwing out strange questions probably along the lines of a more nuanced version of "Look, a squirrel" so a few questions for you now you have had chance to review and reflect on the events. Ive put my answers below so interested to see if you agree

1 Should people be getting excited over what Darroch communicated in his confidential document and which side of the political spectrum got excited and made a big fuss over it?

IMO: No we shouldn't and it was the right like Farage and his supporters who made a fuss over it (the left defended that Darroch was just doing his job)

2 Should people be getting excited about confidential documents being leaked to the press and which side of the political spectrum got excited about it and made a fuss over it

IMO: Yes we should be concerned about this and it was the left who got excited about this (the rights focus was not on the leak but on what Darroch wrote)

3 Should we be getting excited and taking seriously the childish tweets Trump constantly Tweets and which side of the political spectrum got concerned about Trumps opinion and reacted by attacking one of our own senior civil servants

IMO: No we should treat them with disdain but it was the right who elevated their status and used to attack Darroch for doing his job

4 Should we be getting excited and taking seriously that childish tweets by Trump can result in politicians, media and public in general attacking our own Civil servant doing is job in our country's best interests and which side of the political spectrum got excited and concerned with this

IMO: Yes we should get excited about Trumps tweets having that much of an impact on the way we treat and value our govt officials and it was the left who have got excited about this and responded to it.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:19 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Paul W: You seem to be just waffling and throwing out strange questions probably along the lines of a more nuanced version of "Look, a squirrel" so a few questions for you now you have had chance to review and reflect on the events. Ive put my answers below so interested to see if you agree

1 Should people be getting excited over what Darroch communicated in his confidential document and which side of the political spectrum got excited and made a big fuss over it?

IMO: No we shouldn't and it was the right like Farage and his supporters who made a fuss over it (the left defended that Darroch was just doing his job)

2 Should people be getting excited about confidential documents being leaked to the press and which side of the political spectrum got excited about it and made a fuss over it

IMO: Yes we should be concerned about this and it was the left who got excited about this (the rights focus was not on the leak but on what Darroch wrote)

3 Should we be getting excited and taking seriously the childish tweets Trump constantly Tweets and which side of the political spectrum got concerned about Trumps opinion and reacted by attacking one of our own senior civil servants

IMO: No we should treat them with disdain but it was the right who elevated their status and used to attack Darroch for doing his job

4 Should we be getting excited and taking seriously that childish tweets by Trump can result in politicians, media and public in general attacking our own Civil servant doing is job in our country's best interests and which side of the political spectrum got excited and concerned with this

IMO: Yes we should get excited about Trumps tweets having that much of an impact on the way we treat and value our govt officials and it was the left who have got excited about this and responded to it.
Hi DA, interesting way you state you rquestions. OK, I get we live in a polarised left v right world. I don't like it and I certainly try to ignore as much of the "left v right" as I can - if for no other reason than 1) it's not improving my life and 2) there's nothing I can do about it.

I think you''ve answered my original question "what is all the fuss about." You've given reasons why a lot of people were excited, including some of the guys on here who procliam themselves on the left of everything political.... Fair enough, thouugh if you'd not posted I've have just shrugged my shoulders and not got to these reasons...

So, to give answers to your questions:

1) Once I'd read the MoS article - is there anyone who knows where I can find ccopies/text of the actual leaks - still no one saying. Does that also mean no one else has read them? - I find KD's analysis pretty sound, notihing unexpected and exceptional and everything written in professional diplomatic terms. As for Farage, I haven't given him much thought. I didn't know it was his team making the fuss. If stuff was coming from them, more fool them. I really can't see what the brexit party has to gain from the UK "upsetting" DT.

2) I'm not sure how to respond to this question. "the left got excited because the right got excited...." OK, that's the level of our politics. I wish it wasn't.

3) DT's been tweeting for well over 30 months. I've got used to just ignoring it all - after the initial surprise that no one appears to have worked out how to switch his tweets off. "but it was...." why does that matter? How can anyone "elevate the status" of a DT tweet? (or anyone else's tweet, probably...).

4) We are a democracy. That doesn't mean we place our civil servant on a pedestal and beyond comment, favourable or otherwise. As I've posted earlier, I doubt there's a single person on here who knew KD's name before the MoS article was published. We might have had a view on how our ambassador in DC was serving our country - or we might never have given it a thought. From what you say, it's just "tribal stuff" again, this guy has said something that "my team agrees with" - so we must support him. I've nothing against KD - hey, I might even enjoy an evening with him - he went to a public school (on a scholarship) and Durham Uni and then became a civil servant and rose to the top. If we'd first heard of him alongside BJ, we'd have thought the two of them were obvious friends.

Anyway, got to get to Hyde Park: Neil Young and Bob Dylan are performing this evening. :) :)

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:05 pm

Among the idiots it's apparently a threat to press freedom (that they don't care about) to investigate this leak.

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1 ... 24896?s=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oakeshott know's she's perfectly fine just reporting it. But i wonder if she's concerned about committing crimes in obtaining the leaks. If all she did was receive them then she's OK, but it'd be hilarious if she actually incited the leak, because then she'd be in some trouble.

Anyway, behold her hypocrisy.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Did Hunt express confidence in Darroch out of interest?
Yes.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by dsr » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:58 pm

Would Darroch have resigned if Johnson had backed him and Hunt hadn't? More to the point, did the Prime Minister of the UK back him? If so, why did he have to resign because one of the candidates for leader of one of the political parties, did not back him? Wouldn't it be better to find out who is actually going to be PM, rather than expecting every Tom, Dick or Harry who might be PM within the next 6 months to make a considered view over something that is currently none of their business?

If he has resigned because of Johnson. then that's on overtly political act and one that a diplomat shouldn't be doing. If he hasn't resigned because of Johnson, then there's no need to give Johnson any stick for it.

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:41 am

dsr wrote:Would Darroch have resigned if Johnson had backed him and Hunt hadn't? More to the point, did the Prime Minister of the UK back him? If so, why did he have to resign because one of the candidates for leader of one of the political parties, did not back him? Wouldn't it be better to find out who is actually going to be PM, rather than expecting every Tom, Dick or Harry who might be PM within the next 6 months to make a considered view over something that is currently none of their business?

If he has resigned because of Johnson. then that's on overtly political act and one that a diplomat shouldn't be doing. If he hasn't resigned because of Johnson, then there's no need to give Johnson any stick for it.
Barring crazy unforeseen happenstances, Johnson will be our next PM. Johnson pointedly refused to back Darroch when asked. So it's not hard to see that Darroch felt his best option was to resign, as he didn't have the backing of our next PM. Johnson was either signalling his subservience to Trump, or made a mistake. It wouldn't be his first mistake, so I'd say it's the latter. Boris Johnson for PM - what could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Kim Darroch resigns (politics)

Post by Spiral » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:44 am

Hunt basically backed him, and No.10 essentially said 'it's our business, not the business of the US who we appoint as ambassador,' so basically the only idiot in this whole episode is the idiot who could've played out the theatre of backing his own country but blundered into behaving like Trump's patsy because that bloke is a genuine idiot and doesn't know anything about leadership or statesmanship. Darroch is undoubtedly politicising this (can't blame him, really, considering he's had his career pulled from underneath him by brexiteers with a laser sighted on the civil service) but Johnson's response has been about as dumb as was possible. He isn't gaining any more political capital from this episode because most of the lunatic brexiteers were already onside. He only has support to lose and his actions might well have sharpened the focus of the small but significant handful of Tory MPs waiting for an excuse to scupper his leadership.

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