BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by SGr » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:24 am

The Labour Party would do itself an enormous favour if it stopped concerning itself with Israel and Palestine. I hear “anti Israel isn’t antisemetic” all the time, but I ask the question: what’s the point of being anti Israel in the first place? The sooner Labour realise the general population of the United Kingdom don’t give two sh*ts about the supposed plight of the Palestinian people, the easier this all becomes.

If you’re campaigning to lead the UK you’ve got to ask the question: why is this our problem? My answer would be: it isn’t.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by android » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:49 am

If it be your will wrote:I admire your honesty. You are aware, though, that by saying this, you are openly admitting you actively sought to weaponise antisemitism against Corbyn, for reasons totally unrelated to the persecution of Jews? And if you did it, do you think others may have been guilty of this, too, or were you a lone exception? Considering you misused the antisemitism cause before, should we believe you are not still doing so? Also, you are admitting that all those that were saying the issue was being weaponised against Corbyn were not hopeless denialists after all, and were actually right all along?

A genuine campaigner against antisemitism would be totally disgusted by this hijacking of their cause to score an unrelated political point, by the way. And rightly so. It is, by any measure, a completely abhorrent thing to have done.
Wow indeed! By all means hold on to your view of Corbyn - I can't change your mind and I doubt anyone can - but It is very poor to misrepresent me in the way you have just attempted and I would appreciate it if you could refrain from doing that.

I said my "primary" motivation when some stuff first came out a few years ago was to get rid of Corbyn. Do you really not understand what primary means? Do you really not understand that other motives can exist alongside primary motives? Do you really expect me to let you (a Corbyn supporter of all people!) get away with claiming my concerns were "totally unrelated" to the persecution of Jews. As I explained, and you chose to ignore, it seemed to me 3 years ago that Corbyn was a far bigger threat to the country than antisemitism, which I thought was confined to a few cranks like Corbyn and friends (and some far right nut jobs as well obviously). I expected Corbyn to be gone and normality (no significant antisemitism problems in the Labour party) to return. Obviously we now know much more. And as I said, we have the hideous tactic of deflection onto other parties, stoking up division rather than dealing with the problem.

For the record of course my words cannot be misconstrued to mean that the hopeless denialists were right all along!

Not sure who your last paragraph is aimed at.

I should have stuck with my instinct to cease posting on this thread. It's a waste of time, as the hard core will stick to their guns whatever Corbyn does or does not do.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:39 am

Nope. You had your admirable moment of sincerity in your previous post, Android. Too late for a semantic argument now.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Erasmus » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:48 am

Android, it's a simple enough point. Just that some who are up in arms on this anti-semitism issue are taking it up as a means of attacking the Labour Party rather than or more than because they are concerned about racism. I think it is important to be aware that this is a factor in discussing the issue. Rowls, for example, suddenly became very concerned over racism (apparently) when he saw an opportunity to denigrate Corbyn.

Personally, I think the present Labour Party has some excellent policies that would benefit those who are less well off. You say that Labour's socialist outlook has always failed but that is really not the case. Social Democracy has brought great benefits to the people of this country, most notably of course the NHS, usually in the teeth of opposition from the right wing parties.

However, what we have seen just before and since Corbyn's becoming leader is an influx of people into the party who were previously more left wing than Labour and who engaged in a more aggressive form of politics in which quite vicious abuse of opponents was the norm. Such people also tend to be intolerant of different outlooks on any issues.

Amongst such individuals, Israel is seen in the same light as South Africa was in the apartheid era, and there are good grounds for condemning the racism, ethnic cleansing and land seizure of the Israeli government. However, their line of argument too often takes the form of using words that abuse and seek to hurt their opponents at a personal level through all kinds of unpleasant insults. Where their opponents are Jewish and are supporters of Israel then this abuse and desire to emotionally disturb sometimes takes the form of anti-semitism.

To my mind, this kind of abusive and hate-filled argumentation is a disgrace to the Labour Party. It is incompatible with true left wing values, which are an attempt to practically implement the moral precepts that gave rise to social democracy. On this board, we can observe people of a left wing tendency using insults and abusive words, thereby failing to recognise the fundamental basis of left wing politics.

Marxism fails primarily because of Marx's insistence on social determinism, which renders personal morality irrelevant. At the moment I find myself moving away from a lifelong adherence to the Labour Party, not because of anti-semitism, which is not a major issue, or because of the policies of the party, most of which are rightly conceived, but because I am unable to give support to a group that is so intolerant and aggressive and which delights in causing distress to political opponents.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:11 am

Erasmus wrote:..., but because I am unable to give support to a group that is so intolerant and aggressive and which delights in causing distress to political opponents.
Too many on the left are looking at the right and seeing their team-based politics as a good idea that the left should adopt. The alt-right are an amalgamation of far-right extremists who often believe very different things, sometimes fundamentally different things, but they come together on one issue - hatred of "libs". And it doesn't matter if they believe something completely at odds with the policy they're defending. As long as the people attacking it are what they define as "liberals" then they'll defend it. There are some on the left who are heading that way, if they're not there already.

I've said for years that we're following in America's footsteps with this stuff, but in this case we're actually pulling out ahead of them. They don't have an alt-left yet, but we're building one.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:59 am

Erasmus wrote:
Oh, come on Erasmus. Everything about your post was a rebuke. Its use of relentlessly measured tones does not detract from its hostility: it was intended to hurt.

As such it was no less aggressive in its intent than anything I (or IT for that matter) could ever put out.

You press home your point your way - I do appreciate it, by the way - and let me do it mine. Much as you might want to believe otherwise, there is more than one way to make your point heard.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Erasmus » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:34 pm

If it be your will, I would have to disagree with you there. My intention was absolutely not to hurt. I deny that completely, and I would never say or write anything that aimed to hurt an opponent on a personal level. People disagree with me all the time and that doesn't hurt at all, and mostly it is not intended to; surely, you must see the difference between expressing a contrary view and attempting to belittle an opponent or suggest that the opponent is some way despicable. Absolutely different. You are quite wrong on that point, and I say that with no intention whatsoever to cause you personal suffering.

With regard to the more aggressive and abusive approaches, I would repeat that the desire to cause emotional distress to an opponent is a betrayal of left wing values. Hence when expressing a contrary view, one should go to great lengths to ensure that this does not happen. Paul Waine on this board is a good example of this method of debate. I disagree with almost everything he says, but I admire the way he expresses his views and that makes me more inclined to listen to them.

Secondly, it is a form of debate that is completely dysfunctional. You are not going to convince people by abusing them, just the opposite. Moreover, when you argue a case you are taking the position of a representative of that case and the way you project yourself will have an influence over the ability you have to persuade others. Not just the opponent but those who are viewing the discussion. If you come across as an abuser, a harsh voice filled with contempt, then that will inevitably weaken the effectiveness of your arguments in convincing others. As Gandhi said, 'Never think for one moment that the end is not shaped by the means.' Nothing good comes from hatred, contempt and animosity.
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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by android » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:20 pm

If it be your will wrote:Nope. You had your admirable moment of sincerity in your previous post, Android. Too late for a semantic argument now.
No. I will try to spell it out in simple terms. I strongly believe that Corbyn represents a clear and present danger to this country for the many reasons outlined (including the antisemitism). Therefore, I have no qualms about people "weaponising" (as you put it) the truth against Corbyn if it helps keep him out of power. I would never be happy with a lie being weaponised against Corbyn or anyone else.

Some interesting points raised by Erasmus and IT. Agree with most of Erasmus's points in both of the above posts (except I see no reason to have a pop at Rowls and I can't agree that antisemitism is not a major issue - I believe Corbyn has allowed it to become a major issue).

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Spijed » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:26 pm

android wrote:No. I will try to spell it out in simple terms. I strongly believe that Corbyn represents a clear and present danger to this country for the many reasons outlined (including the antisemitism). Therefore, I have no qualms about people "weaponising" (as you put it) the truth against Corbyn if it helps keep him out of power. I would never be happy with a lie being weaponised against Corbyn or anyone else.

Some interesting points raised by Erasmus and IT. Agree with most of Erasmus's points in both of the above posts (except I see no reason to have a pop at Rowls and I can't agree that antisemitism is not a major issue - I believe Corbyn has allowed it to become a major issue).
If one of the reasons Corbyn presents a danger is because of antisemitism, don't you find it a little odd that the vast majority of Jewish people in the UK still choose to vote Labour, even with him in charge?

I suspect they feel the Tory party has far more hatred within its ranks, and their voting patterns reflect this. Boris Johnson will do well to realise this.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:28 pm

Spijed wrote:If one of the reasons Corbyn presents a danger is because of antisemitism, don't you find it a little odd that the vast majority of Jewish people in the UK still choose to vote Labour, even with him in charge?

I suspect they feel the Tory party has far more hatred within its ranks, and their voting patterns reflect this. Boris Johnson will do well to realise this.
"It's worse elsewhere" isn't a valid defence.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by taio » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:39 pm

Spijed wrote:If one of the reasons Corbyn presents a danger is because of antisemitism, don't you find it a little odd that the vast majority of Jewish people in the UK still choose to vote Labour, even with him in charge?
What are you basing this on?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by RMutt » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:46 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:"It's worse elsewhere" isn't a valid defence.

Of course not, but if we are applying different measuring standards to one party than to another, then it becomes an issue. No party will be perfect on any of this stuff but it seems the media only want Labour to be perfect on it. Then, blazing it all over the place affects people’s ability to make a sound choice. It is a classic smear campaign.
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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:20 pm

RMutt wrote:Of course not, but if we are applying different measuring standards to one party than to another, then it becomes an issue. No party will be perfect on any of this stuff but it seems the media only want Labour to be perfect on it. Then, blazing it all over the place affects people’s ability to make a sound choice. It is a classic smear campaign.
Yep. That's fair. It's a Karl Rove strategy. Accuse your opponent of your biggest flaw, and accuse them hard and repeatedly, and it won't really matter whether it's true or not, and when they point out your flaws it'll look like deflection.

Bush v Kerry, 2004. It then was successful for that party 12 years later.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:44 pm

Erasmus wrote:If it be your will, I would have to disagree with you there. My intention was absolutely not to hurt. I deny that completely, and I would never say or write anything that aimed to hurt an opponent on a personal level. People disagree with me all the time and that doesn't hurt at all, and mostly it is not intended to; surely, you must see the difference between expressing a contrary view and attempting to belittle an opponent or suggest that the opponent is some way despicable. Absolutely different. You are quite wrong on that point, and I say that with no intention whatsoever to cause you personal suffering.

With regard to the more aggressive and abusive approaches, I would repeat that the desire to cause emotional distress to an opponent is a betrayal of left wing values. Hence when expressing a contrary view, one should go to great lengths to ensure that this does not happen. Paul Waine on this board is a good example of this method of debate. I disagree with almost everything he says, but I admire the way he expresses his views and that makes me more inclined to listen to them.

Secondly, it is a form of debate that is completely dysfunctional. You are not going to convince people by abusing them, just the opposite. Moreover, when you argue a case you are taking the position of a representative of that case and the way you project yourself will have an influence over the ability you have to persuade others. Not just the opponent but those who are viewing the discussion. If you come across as an abuser, a harsh voice filled with contempt, then that will inevitably weaken the effectiveness of your arguments in convincing others. As Gandhi said, 'Never think for one moment that the end is not shaped by the means.' Nothing good comes from hatred, contempt and animosity.
I think I've discovered the source of the confusion. You supposed my forthright attack on Android, was a personal attack on him.

That's where your mistake is. I don't know Android, I will never meet Android, I have no personal feelings of animosity, contempt or anything else towards Android. This is not particularly because I'm nice or anything, but because it would be entirely illogical to have such feelings. As an exchange of ideas and opinions, an anonymous messageboard is surely the least personal platform imaginable. I honestly do not even see the person behind any post, nor do I even attempt to. It simply wouldn't make sense for me to do so. As such, absolutely nothing I ever type on here can possibly, even theoretically, be 'personal'.

All I've got is the opinion and the ideas expressed: the words. And when it is revealed that the noble cause of antisemitism has been abused for reasons other than its cause, to gain a cynical political advantage, I will challenge it with the robustness and contempt it deserves, in a way that attracts the attention I believe it ought to, in a manner I consider most likely to bring a successful challenge.

You have different ways of getting your point across. We could debate the relative success of either method. I like mine, you like yours. Who knows which is the most successful?

And Android, if you were in any way upset on a personal level by anything I write on here, I suppose I should apologise. But I can't for the life of me understand why you would become upset by something an anonymous stranger on a meassageboard would say. This has never happened to me, so I really don't know how it feels in order to empathise properly!

(Do people really get genuinely upset on here? Then my God, why on earth do you contribute??)

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by android » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:15 pm

I was not upset IIBYW - pointless on here as you say. But no-one likes having their views misrepresented, as you did to me in post 49. Hopefully you understand my post 58 even if you obviously don't agree with it. My post 58 is not at all inconsistent with my original response to Spijed.

Btw I don't think you mean to call antisemitism a "noble cause" unless it was a Freudian slip! Or a moment of honesty from a Corbynista - Touche!

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Erasmus » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:50 pm

There is indeed some confusion. I was making a very general comment with no one and no particular post in mind. I have never thought of you as a particularly aggressive poster. Most of what I said was based on personal experience of left-wing politics over the last fifty years or so and the way the Labour Party has changed in recent years.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by thomaspaine » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:13 pm

Clarets4me wrote:Some shocking revelations ... any thoughts ?
At the risk of being called insensitive I feel strongly that the whole saga has been over emphasised.The right wing media seem overly keen to flog the issue whilst seemingly paying scant attention to racism within the Tory party.You would be hard pressed to find a more fair minded and culturally sensitive individual than Corbyn and he has said numerous times that such behaviour will not be tolerated in the Labour Party. PS Spare me any fool who mentions the old chestnuts about him being an Hamas and IRA supporter as well - more right wing bull ****.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:38 pm

android wrote:The truth is that when the Corbyn antisemitism stuff all started to come out a few years ago I was primarily motivated by nailing Corbyn. I think his world view is a joke and the idea of him being our PM is ludicrous. His Marxism/Communism/Socialism (all bases covered by his closest team) can never work due to human nature and it has been proven over and over that capitalism (with a social conscience) is the least bad solution. On top of that, his world view is to blame the West for all the worlds ills and as a result he naturally sides with enemies of Britain (Russia, Iran etc), so it is unthinkable that he could actually be our Prime Minister.
So we're back to the words, not the humans behind them. That's good.

Okay Android. I will accept (what I consider to be) the semantic argument that the inclusion of the word 'primarily' allows for the possibility that a you might have also had a (more minor) concern for Jews, too. But however I look at it, this paragraph cannot be misinterpreted. You used the accusation of antisemitism to gain a separate political advantage, despite lower down in your post admitting you hadn't even given the antisemitism issue much consideration at the time.

This is crucially important for 2 reasons. First, it weakens the whole campaign against antisemitism when it is used for other purposes. As Graeber said on Twitter in response to Margaret Hodge clearly doing the same thing: Speaking as a Jew, let me say I consider your behavior so vile as to itself be anti-Semitic, since crying wolf like this for cynical political advantage means when the real anti-Semites start mobilizing no one will take the warnings seriously

And he's right. It is perfectly possible, especially looking at events across Europe, antisemitism could once again lead to mass murder. It should be seen as a very serious thing indeed. It absolutely should not be cheapened by use for other political advantage.

Second, these attacks have destroyed Corbyn. It has worked. You won. Corbyn will never be PM. Yet I, and many others on the left, know, with absolute certainty, dangerous antisemitism will never, ever come from the left. If there is one thing that never even gets past first base on the left, it is prejudice based on genetic makeup. You might claim this shows complacency, but it doesn't. No leftie will ever stand by and let this develop, least of all Corbyn. If antisemitism does ever take a mortal turn in the UK again, it will be the left, including myself, that will be the ones willing to die in order to stop it. That's because that's what the left is. Misusing the cause has defeated the one force that would never have let it happen, we now await what will come instead.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Clarets4me » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:56 pm

thomaspaine wrote:At the risk of being called insensitive I feel strongly that the whole saga has been over emphasised.The right wing media seem overly keen to flog the issue whilst seemingly paying scant attention to racism within the Tory party.You would be hard pressed to find a more fair minded and culturally sensitive individual than Corbyn and he has said numerous times that such behaviour will not be tolerated in the Labour Party. PS Spare me any fool who mentions the old chestnuts about him being an Hamas and IRA supporter as well - more right wing bull ****.
Ground control to Major Tom !!

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Paul Waine » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Hi guys, no, I didn't watch Panorama and, no I've not read any of this thread. Think this is the best place to share this one...

Dead Ringers, R4 today. Spoke about the Panorama prog and the Labour Party's NDAs. They mentioned an elderly party member. Said he'd signed an NDA 3 years ago - Jeremy Corbyn. Now we know why he's been silent! ;) :lol:

OK. You had to be there.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:11 pm

thomaspaine wrote:At the risk of being called insensitive I feel strongly that the whole saga has been over emphasised.The right wing media seem overly keen to flog the issue whilst seemingly paying scant attention to racism within the Tory party.You would be hard pressed to find a more fair minded and culturally sensitive individual than Corbyn and he has said numerous times that such behaviour will not be tolerated in the Labour Party. PS Spare me any fool who mentions the old chestnuts about him being an Hamas and IRA supporter as well - more right wing bull ****.
I've always confidently known that it was only a matter of time before the anti-Corbyn antisemitism campaign committed flagrant over-reach. I think this Panorama episode will go down as that moment when it finally dawned on nearly everyone that the accusations of antisemitism levelled against Corbyn's team were largely concocted for political purposes. Social media is on fire - edited emails, witnesses that worked for the Israeli embassy, the history of the producer, the flawed analysis, together with lack of hard evidence to back any of it up. On this messageboard, too, it feels like the game is finally up. It has now run its course, I think. It might carry on here and there, but it will gain no more electoral advantage from here.

Who'd have thought, though, that it would be the BBC, that bastion of impartiality, that would be the ones to have committed the decisive over-reach? Actually, I think it was because it was the BBC that it was so decisive in its effect.

The only thing that was ever in question was whether the over-reach occured before or after Corbyn was mortally wounded? (After, sadly, in my opinion.)

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 pm

I mean, look at this clip for instance:

https://twitter.com/evertonfc2/status/1 ... 2862460931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You thought something was dodgy about that Panorama episode? There was. Lots of things. Over-reach.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by South West Claret. » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:19 am

If it be your will wrote:I mean, look at this clip for instance:

https://twitter.com/evertonfc2/status/1 ... 2862460931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You thought something was dodgy about that Panorama episode? There was. Lots of things. Over-reach.
Hasn’t this one been put to bed yet.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by android » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:54 pm

Final post from me I hope:

That is some achievement IIBYW. You have gone from yet again lecturing me on my apparent lack of concern for Jews (due to you continuing to misunderstand my post) to one hour later spreading dirt (you not me) on a Jewish victim of antisemitism in the Labour party - lovely.

The Jewish woman you targeted said she would like to fight one of Corbyn's anti-Semitic friends (Walker in this case). It follows that the whole idea of Corbyn's antisemitism problem is a hoax. Nice one.

It's quite possible that the woman is a phony - but all of them - give over. Put it this way, would you be surprised if one of Jimmy Savile's victims wanted to give him a good kicking? Would you then conclude that the whole abuse scandal was a hoax? Of course not, it is desperate.

It is also ironic that you are claiming things have been taken out of context against Corbyn and yet here you are repeatedly doing that to me. So I will try one last time to explain my post that got you excited. I said at the outset that the greater threat to the country (the bigger picture) at the time that the antisemitism claims FIRST came out would be a Corbyn government. He was known to have anti-Semitic friends (here and abroad) for a long time but that did not seem like a large scale threat to our Jewish residents because it appeared to be confined to a few cranks like him and he was nowhere near power. So my point was never that antisemitism didn't matter. But Corbyn was clearly associated with antisemitism so I was happy for this truth to be "weaponised" against him. Get rid of him and you can largely eliminate what then seemed a small problem (now we know it is a much bigger problem) but also remove the massive threat of economic chaos (the primary objective at the time). You don't have to agree with my view but do you finally get my point now?

You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head when you point out the strong opposition to all forms of racism on the left. It is this moral certainty (the left are better people as Turtle put it) that is part of the reason the problem has arisen. If you are a minority in Britain you cannot possibly have anything to fear from the left. So if you are a Jew you are fine...as long as...you don't support ANYTHING done by the Israeli government, don't even think about a job at the Israeli embassy (one of the above mentioned woman's crimes apparently), don't be associated with any of the Jews that control the global media, don't be associated with the Jews who control global finance (like the hook nosed ones in the mural), don't be a British Jew who doesn't understand our irony and is not like us (Corbyn), don't try to ban or stop me hanging out with Holocaust deniers or people who want to obliterate Israel from the face of the earth oh and better not hang out with any Tories either...but apart from that you will be absolutely fine and have nothing to fear. (This is why it is appropriate to refer to "Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party", as the antisemitism may have existed in the party before he became leader but they didn't then have a leader who is a figurehead for tolerance of antisemitism).

I think most people see that Corbyn is a big part of the problem but a minority will continue to agree with you IIBYW whatever happens.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by If it be your will » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:12 pm

android wrote:It's quite possible that the woman is a phony - but all of them - give over. Put it this way, would you be surprised if one of Jimmy Savile's victims wanted to give him a good kicking? Would you then conclude that the whole abuse scandal was a hoax?
Maybe they're not all phoney's. It's difficult to know when people are using antisemitsm allegations 'primarily to nail Corbyn' for being a Marxist, as you did.

I'd be equally cross with someone that wanted to have a go at Savile for some other reason, but cynically concocted a story that they'd been sexually abused by him instead. Because this would cheapen the accounts of those that really had been abused by him. (I would hope nobody would stoop this low, though, to be honest.)

(Jackie Walker, the one you labelled as an anti-Semite, is Jewish, by the way. I believe the correct phrase for those wanting to 'nail Corbyn' and his supporters in these circumstances - when the supposed perpetrator is actually Jewish themselves - is 'self-hating Jew' rather than 'anti-Semite'. That's how vicious those merely wanting to 'nail Corbyn' have got.)

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:25 am

Louise Ellman resigns due to Anti-semitism

Labour's anti-semitism row has erupted spectacularly again as the veteran Jewish MP Louise Ellman quit the party and condemned Jeremy Corbyn as unfit to be Prime Minister.

Ms Ellman, 73 and a leading figure in the Jewish community, has been MP for Liverpool Riverside since 1997 and at the 2017 general election had a massive majority of nearly 36,000.

She has been at the forefront of the campaign by senior MPs against antisemitism in the Labour Party and has been the target for left-wingers attempting to oust her before the next election.

The campaign to de-select her was launched at a meeting held on Yom Kippur - regarded as the holiest day in the Jewish calendar - last week, a move condemned by Jewish supporters.

Announcing her decision on twitter, Ms Ellman said: "I have made the truly agonising decision to leave the Labour Party after 55 years. I can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM. I will continue to serve the people of Liverpool Riverside as I have had the honour to do since 1997."

There is "no way" the Liberal Democrats could support Labour's Jeremy Corbyn as an interim prime minister if Boris Johnson is toppled from power, the party's leader has said

And in a lengthy statement bitterly attacking Mr Corbyn, she said: "I believe that Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to serve as our Prime Minister. With a looming general election and the possibility of him becoming Prime Minister, I feel I have to take a stand. I cannot advocate a government led by Jeremy Corbyn.

"Under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, antisemitism has become mainstream in the Labour Party. Jewish members have been bullied, abused and driven out. Antisemites have felt comfortable and vile conspiracy theories have been propagated. A party that permits anti-Jewish racism to flourish cannot be called anti-racist.


"This is not compatible with the Labour Party's values of equality, tolerance and respect for minorities. Shamefully, its anti-Jewish racism is now being investigated by one of the last labour government's proudest creations, the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

"Jeremy Corbyn - who spent three decades on the backbenches consorting with, and never confronting, antisemites, Holocaust deniers and terrorists - has attracted the support of too many antisemites.

"The Labour Party is no longer a safe place for Jews and Jeremy Corbyn must bear the responsibility for this. We cannot allow him to do to the country what he has done to the Labour Party.

"The overwhelming majority of the Jewish community is fearful of what a Corbyn government might mean for Britain's Jews. I share those concerns. But this issue is not simply about the Jewish community. This is about the nature of our society. Jeremy Corbyn's seeming tolerance of antisemitism would embolden racists, poison our public debate and damage the social cohesion of our country.

"My values - traditional Labour values - have remained the same. It is Labour, under Jeremy Corbyn, that has changed. He has presided over a culture of hatred, fear and intolerance in the Labour Party.

"But this issue is no longer just about the Labour Party - it is about the threat a Jeremy Corbyn premiership could pose to the country."

Within minutes of Ms Ellman's shock announcement, several senior Labour MPs expressed strong support for her.

Harriet Harman, currently campaigning to succeed John Bercow as Commons Speaker, described her resignation as "very sad news".

"Thank you, Louise, for your terrific contribution to Parliament, politics and the Labour Party!" she tweeted.

Dame Margaret Hodge, with whom Ms Ellman campaigned against anti-semitism in the Labour Party, tweeted: "Absolutely devastated that @LouiseEllman feels that she no longer has a place in the Labour Party.

"Louise has given decades of her life to public service & having known her for nearly forty years I am proud to call her a close friend. This is a huge loss to the Labour Party."

Labour MP Lisa Nandy tweeted: "It is hard to explain how painful this is. I know Louise will have thought so hard before taking this decision. So much is at stake. We cannot allow this to continue."

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:20 am

android wrote:Final post from me I hope:

You have inadvertently hit the nail on the head when you point out the strong opposition to all forms of racism on the left. It is this moral certainty (the left are better people as Turtle put it) that is part of the reason the problem has arisen. If you are a minority in Britain you cannot possibly have anything to fear from the left. So if you are a Jew you are fine...as long as...you don't support ANYTHING done by the Israeli government, don't even think about a job at the Israeli embassy (one of the above mentioned woman's crimes apparently), don't be associated with any of the Jews that control the global media, don't be associated with the Jews who control global finance (like the hook nosed ones in the mural), don't be a British Jew who doesn't understand our irony and is not like us (Corbyn), don't try to ban or stop me hanging out with Holocaust deniers or people who want to obliterate Israel from the face of the earth oh and better not hang out with any Tories either...but apart from that you will be absolutely fine and have nothing to fear. (This is why it is appropriate to refer to "Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party", as the antisemitism may have existed in the party before he became leader but they didn't then have a leader who is a figurehead for tolerance of antisemitism).

I think most people see that Corbyn is a big part of the problem but a minority will continue to agree with you IIBYW whatever happens.
I am a Labour Party member and I do not want to be involved with a party that is anti-semitic. What stops me from cancelling my membership is not that I am against all forms of racism apart from that directed against Jewish people, but because I really need to hear examples of anti-semitic behaviour from the leadership. Members of the party have made anti-semitic comments, and I know that the Israel-Palestine issue runs deep and it can easily go in that direction. But being 'institutionally anti-semitic' is a different matter. It isn't that I don't believe the accusers, it is that I want to hear about whatever has happened to them in order for them to form that judgement. I'm not part of Corbyn's inner circle, and I want to know the facts. Today, we've had another resignation but again, the statement has lacked any detail and the usual voices (i.e. long-term Corbyn critics) have emerged in support. It is not surprising that Labour supporters think there is a conspiracy in these circumstances. Simply saying 'Corbyn has associated with anti-semites' isn't enough - it's circumstantial evidence at best, irrelevant at worst. Furthermore, the standard Corbyn is being held to seems to be that it is verboten to associate with any political actor who holds or has held unsavoury views, yet the same standard has not been applied to past Labour Party leaders (Blair and Gaddafi anyone?), let alone political leaders generally.

Perhaps these politicians do not feel they need to justify their feelings of persecution. But if it is as bad as they say and if they really do want the party to succeed, they need to be more clear with members like me about what's going on. As it is, one will always be tempted to think this is Westminster mudslinging in the House of Whispers. This is not apologism for anti-semitism, it's just a request for more information when there is a situation where it is one person's word against another. To be clear here, I would maintain the same standard were this issue about sexism, homophobia, or any other kind of racism. Sadly, the legacy of prejudice is sometimes weaponised by our political classes to score cheap points, occasionally even by people who hold views entirely alien to the causes they opportunistically champion. I don't want to accuse the people quitting the Labour Party over antisemitism of indulging in this behaviour, but, to repeat (sorry!), I need to hear what has actually gone on and I do not see that as an unfair request.
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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:46 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:I am a Labour Party member and I do not want to be involved with a party that is anti-semitic. What stops me from cancelling my membership is ... I really need to hear examples of anti-semitic behaviour from the leadership.

Simply saying 'Corbyn has associated with anti-semites' isn't enough - it's circumstantial evidence at best, irrelevant at worst.
Just to clarify here - The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn has associated with anti-semites is not circumstantial. It is clear and undeniable.

Jeremy has associated with and supported anti-semitic groups for many years.

The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn himself is anti-semitic is what is circumstantial,

You believe that Jeremy Corbyn is being held to a different standard? Well try this idea for size - what if prominent Conservative supporters and MPs were found to be anti-black racists?

What if the current leader of the Conservative Party was caught laying a wreath at a "martyred" white supremicists grave?

What if a Conservative Leader shared a platform with the Klu Klux Klan (not to support them but to engage them in debate, you understand) and called the Klan his "friends" (not because they were his 'friends' but out of formality, you understand)?

What if droves and droves of black people left the Conservative Party citing growing racism under the new leader as the main reason?

What if handfuls of black Conservative MPs resigned for the same reason?

Would you want whoever was leader of the Conservative Party to be held account?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:48 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote: I don't want to accuse the people quitting the Labour Party over antisemitism of indulging in this behaviour, but, to repeat (sorry!), I need to hear what has actually gone on and I do not see that as an unfair request.
I'll bump the "Anti - Semitism" thread for you.

I'm sure everybody will be grateful.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:05 am

Rowls wrote:Just to clarify here - The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn has associated with anti-semites is not circumstantial. It is clear and undeniable.

Jeremy has associated with and supported anti-semitic groups for many years.

The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn himself is anti-semitic is what is circumstantial,

You believe that Jeremy Corbyn is being held to a different standard? Well try this idea for size - what if prominent Conservative supporters and MPs were found to be anti-black racists?

...
I've cut out the rest of your questions because I suspect they were rhetorical. Nothing wrong with that: I shall offer my own in response.

You are absolutely right: my point was that the evidence that Corbyn is anti-semitic is circumstantial.

I do maintain that Corbyn is held to a different standard. However, and here is the nub of the issue, you say:

'what if prominent Conservative supporters and MPs were found to be anti-black racists?'

What evidence would be required in order for you to accept they were anti-black racists? If Jacob Rees-Mogg and the ERG were accused, for instance, would you have accepted it to be true were Ken Clarke, Heidi Allen or Anna Soubry to be making the accusations in their resignation letters, in broad strokes and with no reference to specific evidence?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:10 am

Reality is though mate, pretty much every Jewish MP has reported issues.

I'm no Corbyn fan and I think he's useless and his failure to deal with this is one of the reasons I think he's useless.

He has long held views that he won't change, and those views he has also has very wide support in people who are 100% anti-semitic.

Those people (rightly or wrongly) think Corbyn supports their anti-semitism because he supports their causes.

He's not done enough to counter that (hard to see how he could without alienating a lot of his support base btw)

It doesn't matter anymore now anyway, he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:18 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:What evidence would be required in order for you to accept they were anti-black racists? If Jacob Rees-Mogg and the ERG were accused, for instance, would you have accepted it to be true were Ken Clarke, Heidi Allen or Anna Soubry to be making the accusations in their resignation letters, in broad strokes and with no reference to specific evidence?
There are plenty of fine details to go along with the broad strokes though.

Here, for example, is Naz Shah proclaiming that although she is not an anti-semite, her words are sometimes anti-semitic. How's that for attention to detail?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's plenty more details listed on the anti-semitism thread which I bumped for you.

The problem seems widespread to me.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:19 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:It doesn't matter anymore now anyway, he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.
Hmmmmm? What exactly doesn't matter?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:22 am

Rowls wrote:Hmmmmm? What exactly doesn't matter?
That he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.

He might as well not bother to do anything about it.

Bit like the Islamophobia issue in the Conservative Party.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:24 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.

He might as well not bother to do anything about it.
You mean that it doesn't matter if anti-semitism is tackled in the Labour Party because there aren't any votes to be won from doing so?

Really?

You're really saying that?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:29 am

Rowls wrote:You mean that it doesn't matter if anti-semitism is tackled in the Labour Party because there aren't any votes to be won from doing so?

Really?

You're really saying that?
Oh dear Rowls

If only you'd quoted my whole post eh?

But its you, so being a disingenuous fool is all you can be.

Just read my post again

I WROTE THE WHOLE POST TO INCLUDE THE KILLER LAST LINE, WHICH YOU'VE NOT QUOTED BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT DOING NOTHING ABOUT ISLAMOPHOBIA IS EXACTLY WHAT THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY DO. AND AS PEOPLE ARE FINE WITH THAT, THEN LABOUR MIGHT AS WELL DO THE SAME.

THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF MY POST.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:31 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Reality is though mate, pretty much every Jewish MP has reported issues.

I'm no Corbyn fan and I think he's useless and his failure to deal with this is one of the reasons I think he's useless.

He has long held views that he won't change, and those views he has also has very wide support in people who are 100% anti-semitic.

Those people (rightly or wrongly) think Corbyn supports their anti-semitism because he supports their causes.

He's not done enough to counter that (hard to see how he could without alienating a lot of his support base btw)

It doesn't matter anymore now anyway, he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.

Agreed - he's lost the Jewish vote and it's a terrible thing. I'm not a Corbynista, maybe an ex-Corbynista. But, and here's the thing, the way I see it, a lot of the people leaving are tarnishing me and people who think like me with the brush of anti-semitism and that isn't right (we'd never say the same of Labour voters in Burnley who held views that would be considered Islamophobic by the liberal middle classes). By claiming that a party is institutionally anti-semitic, implicitly, those who support that party are supporting anti-semitism. I can't abide that and I entirely agree when they say it isn't what Labour is about.

He has ****** up this anti-semitism issue beyond all belief. I don't know what he's done, faffed about too much probably, but it needed an Alastair Campbell to tell him how to put it to bed. But I don't think he is an anti-semite, I think he is pro-Palestinian. There's an academic debate to be had about why it's dangerous to conflate the two, but it doesn't translate to British politics because people in Britain do not live in Palestine. At best, you will get support from Muslim voters, but even then at the expense of Jewish voters. It was once our issue, but it is no longer - at least no more than any other advanced economy. This is the problem with Corbyn and his inner circle - too much 'world socialism', not enough 'British socialism'.

As I said in another thread though: politicians (and their advisors) are, on the whole, very bright (there is even evidence for this) and Corbyn is no exception. His ratings will pick up once the GE campaigning starts proper. But he has ****** up and, despite the cultist crap you get from the trolls, even loyalists like me are willing to admit it.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Rowls » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:37 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That he's lost the Jewish vote whatever he does now.

He might as well not bother to do anything about it.

Bit like the Islamophobia issue in the Conservative Party.
You see that third sentence, Lancaster?

The first two sentences aren't dependent on it.

Whether or not you agree with the third sentence, the first two are logially independent.

So you think Jeremy Corbyn shouldn't bother tackling anti-semitism?

You just don't even catch yourself saying these things any more do you?

Byeeee for now.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:06 am

Rowls wrote:You see that third sentence, Lancaster?

The first two sentences aren't dependent on it.

Whether or not you agree with the third sentence, the first two are logially independent.

So you think Jeremy Corbyn shouldn't bother tackling anti-semitism?

You just don't even catch yourself saying these things any more do you?

Byeeee for now.
They are for the point I was making.

You are hilariously bad at this btw.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:10 am

Rowls wrote:You see that third sentence, Lancaster?

The first two sentences aren't dependent on it.

Whether or not you agree with the third sentence, the first two are logially independent.

So you think Jeremy Corbyn shouldn't bother tackling anti-semitism?

You just don't even catch yourself saying these things any more do you?

Byeeee for now.
I always wondered: 'Why do people bother getting into petty arguments on this forum? Surely it's waste of time'

Now I can see how people get sucked in to it.

I don't think you give a toss about racism Rowls, I think it's just a ball for you to toss between the right and the left. On the other thread you've posted a series of links you've collected, many, it must be said, from known right-wing muckrakers Guido Fawkes, which you believe demonstrate - definitively - that the Labour Party is antisemitic. Even were I to go through each, contextualising and adding nuance (and no, that doesn't mean whitewashing or revisionism) I reckon you would pick me up on some minor issue and use it to derail the discussion.

On this thread, I posted, in all sincerity, my thoughts about the anti-semitism issue because I care about not reviving the demons from the darkest corners of history. What do you do? 'Come look at all these things I've collected and posted on the internet which I think show the Labour Party is anti-semitic but I know people won't agree which is great because then we can argue about it forever while I jerk off into my cheerios'

You're not interested in engaging with what your interlocutor actually thinks, instead you want to engage with a hastily constructed archetype raised on the ground of a superficial glance at their statements. The archetype exists only for you, and you indulge yourself with it. I wouldn't care, I shouldn't care, but it's a persistent trope of the right, who have no positive arguments to make, only endless, kvetchy criticisms which, consciously or not, serve to distract from whatever is really important. A constant drip of nihilism, direct into the democratic veins.
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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:19 am

Rowls wrote:Just to clarify here - The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn has associated with anti-semites is not circumstantial. It is clear and undeniable.

Jeremy has associated with and supported anti-semitic groups for many years.

The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn himself is anti-semitic is what is circumstantial,

You believe that Jeremy Corbyn is being held to a different standard? Well try this idea for size - what if prominent Conservative supporters and MPs were found to be anti-black racists?

What if the current leader of the Conservative Party was caught laying a wreath at a "martyred" white supremicists grave?

What if a Conservative Leader shared a platform with the Klu Klux Klan (not to support them but to engage them in debate, you understand) and called the Klan his "friends" (not because they were his 'friends' but out of formality, you understand)?

What if droves and droves of black people left the Conservative Party citing growing racism under the new leader as the main reason?

What if handfuls of black Conservative MPs resigned for the same reason?

Would you want whoever was leader of the Conservative Party to be held account?
There is plenty of evidence of racism and anti semitism within the Tory Party. What was Johnson thinking when he used the word piccaninnies I a newspaper article? Watermelon smiles? He ticked the homophobia box with “Bumboys” and more recently comparing some women with letterboxes and bankrobbers. These are his own words! And if he’s willing to write this in a national newspaper, what is he willing to say privately? How many Muslims have left the Tory Party due to islamophobia? That’s just Johnson. Racism runs all the way through the Tory Party, and has done for a long time. “Hang Mandela” posters? “Nigger for a neighbour” slogan?

There isn’t even circumstantial evidence that Corbyn is anti Semitic. His work for the Jewish community is well documented. Where were all these Jewish Labour voices when Labour ran anti-Semitic ads against Michael Howard?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by NottsClaret » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:34 am

This whole thread could be abbreviated to 'yeah, but what about..'. Actually, most of the internet could.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:07 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:Agreed - he's lost the Jewish vote and it's a terrible thing. I'm not a Corbynista, maybe an ex-Corbynista. But, and here's the thing, the way I see it, a lot of the people leaving are tarnishing me and people who think like me with the brush of anti-semitism and that isn't right (we'd never say the same of Labour voters in Burnley who held views that would be considered Islamophobic by the liberal middle classes). By claiming that a party is institutionally anti-semitic, implicitly, those who support that party are supporting anti-semitism. I can't abide that and I entirely agree when they say it isn't what Labour is about.

He has ****** up this anti-semitism issue beyond all belief. I don't know what he's done, faffed about too much probably, but it needed an Alastair Campbell to tell him how to put it to bed. But I don't think he is an anti-semite, I think he is pro-Palestinian. There's an academic debate to be had about why it's dangerous to conflate the two, but it doesn't translate to British politics because people in Britain do not live in Palestine. At best, you will get support from Muslim voters, but even then at the expense of Jewish voters. It was once our issue, but it is no longer - at least no more than any other advanced economy. This is the problem with Corbyn and his inner circle - too much 'world socialism', not enough 'British socialism'.

As I said in another thread though: politicians (and their advisors) are, on the whole, very bright (there is even evidence for this) and Corbyn is no exception. His ratings will pick up once the GE campaigning starts proper. But he has ****** up and, despite the cultist crap you get from the trolls, even loyalists like me are willing to admit it.
I don’t think there’s anything Corbyn could have done differently on this issue, other than reaffirm his commitment to anti racism, and stance against anti-semitism to the public, and speed up the process by which allegations are investigated within the party (which is what he did). Plenty of Jewish people spoke out in support of him, and over time many of the accusations were shown to be scurrilous or complete bunkum - but the press ignored all of this.

If Corbyn made way for someone else, the press would turn their fire on them instead. Only a Labour Party that ditches the radical agenda will gain any traction from the press, and then what use would such a Labour Party be?

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by aggi » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:22 am

Rowls wrote:Just to clarify here - The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn has associated with anti-semites is not circumstantial. It is clear and undeniable.

Jeremy has associated with and supported anti-semitic groups for many years.

The evidence that Jeremy Corbyn himself is anti-semitic is what is circumstantial,

You believe that Jeremy Corbyn is being held to a different standard? Well try this idea for size - what if prominent Conservative supporters and MPs were found to be anti-black racists?

What if the current leader of the Conservative Party was caught laying a wreath at a "martyred" white supremicists grave?

What if a Conservative Leader shared a platform with the Klu Klux Klan (not to support them but to engage them in debate, you understand) and called the Klan his "friends" (not because they were his 'friends' but out of formality, you understand)?

What if droves and droves of black people left the Conservative Party citing growing racism under the new leader as the main reason?

What if handfuls of black Conservative MPs resigned for the same reason?

Would you want whoever was leader of the Conservative Party to be held account?
Good tactic to choose anti-Black racism here rather than Islamophobia.

Anyway, we all know that the right response to someone who makes accusations of anti-black racism is to boo them. That's what you told us you'd do after all.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by HieronymousBoschHobs » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:31 am

AndrewJB wrote:I don’t think there’s anything Corbyn could have done differently on this issue, other than reaffirm his commitment to anti racism, and stance against anti-semitism to the public, and speed up the process by which allegations are investigated within the party (which is what he did). Plenty of Jewish people spoke out in support of him, and over time many of the accusations were shown to be scurrilous or complete bunkum - but the press ignored all of this.

If Corbyn made way for someone else, the press would turn their fire on them instead. Only a Labour Party that ditches the radical agenda will gain any traction from the press, and then what use would such a Labour Party be?

You may well be right Andrew. The problem is that this is all very much 'she said, he said' and it's impossible to get any idea of what's really going on. Certainly, this is not just about anti-semitism - there are a whole variety of political interests at play. I'm also fairly confident in my belief that the press have done a hatchet job on Corbyn - the LSE study said as much and I struggle to believe that any impartial observer would find Johnson, in general, more likely to tell the truth than Corbyn but the polls suggest that the public believe just this (I could understand if people thought Johnson the better leader, but even Corbyn's parliamentary detractors regard him as honest - the opposite is the case for the Tory leader).

The problem is that the anti-semitism thing keeps running on and on and I wonder whether it is a reputational issue as much as anything else for some of the MPs who are leaving. My Dad always tells me that the press have never liked us (Labour) but pulling the Trump-card and attacking media bias only works when you are on the rise. There's no chance of a Blair-style pact with The Sun or other right-wing press while Corbyn is in charge, but they need to be handled better.

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by Damo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:42 am

AndrewJB wrote:I don’t think there’s anything Corbyn could have done differently on this issue
Not reinstating Naz Shah would have been a good start

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Re: BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:44 am

HieronymousBoschHobs wrote:You may well be right Andrew. The problem is that this is all very much 'she said, he said' and it's impossible to get any idea of what's really going on. Certainly, this is not just about anti-semitism - there are a whole variety of political interests at play. I'm also fairly confident in my belief that the press have done a hatchet job on Corbyn - the LSE study said as much and I struggle to believe that any impartial observer would find Johnson, in general, more likely to tell the truth than Corbyn but the polls suggest that the public believe just this (I could understand if people thought Johnson the better leader, but even Corbyn's parliamentary detractors regard him as honest - the opposite is the case for the Tory leader).

The problem is that the anti-semitism thing keeps running on and on and I wonder whether it is a reputational issue as much as anything else for some of the MPs who are leaving. My Dad always tells me that the press have never liked us (Labour) but pulling the Trump-card and attacking media bias only works when you are on the rise. There's no chance of a Blair-style pact with The Sun or other right-wing press while Corbyn is in charge, but they need to be handled better.
There have been wins along the way. Hammond quietly binned PFI as a policy. Johnson has reversed on police and healthcare cuts. Northern Rail is being readied for nationalisation. No longer can they say Labour’s economic vision is terrible, when Johnson has copied so much of it himself. The right wing papers will always oppose Labour, but during an election, Corbyn’s authentic voice will be heard, and as many people only know what they know about him through the prism of right wing media, that will change minds here and there. I’m optimistic.
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