BBC " Panorama " report on anti-semitic Labour ...
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 pm
Some shocking revelations ... any thoughts ?
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The Labour Party is in danger of becoming irrelevant, and will be lucky to survive as one party. If they push for an election they must be dreaming, they’ll do well to finish third.Clarets4me wrote:Some shocking revelations ... any thoughts ?
Did you watch the programme ?South West Claret. wrote:Shocking revelations? Like what?
Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are two completely different things.Burnley Ace wrote:There are more votes to be won in the Muslim block than the Jewish, there's no need to for Labour to pander to the Jewish vote so they can let their anti Israel views spew forth.
That was made very clear in the programme, it's far from the issue ....fidelcastro wrote:Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are two completely different things.
It's clear that the Blarites in the Labour Party, who never wanted Corbyn as leader in the first place, won't make a distinction between the two.Clarets4me wrote:That was made very clear in the programme, it's far from the issue ....
A concept that some anti Israel protesters sometimes forget, or get confused about or perhaps, in their enthusiasm, allow to spill over.fidelcastro wrote:Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are two completely different things.
No I was out, what were those shock revelations.Clarets4me wrote:Did you watch the programme ?
It's no use saying this mate, I've argued this point with so many people but they don't want to know - especially if they are anti-Labour. Unfortunately many people cannot see the difference between criticising the actions of a government and criticising a race of people connected with the country (even if they don't live there).fidelcastro wrote:Being anti-Israel and being anti-semitic are two completely different things.
South West Claret. wrote:Shocking revelations? Like what?
tbh I know its almost entirely bull, and the media/right wing are just hammering this antisemitism drum as a means to beat Labour and the hard left with. I think most people know this in reality, for me though I just hammer the drum not because I believe its true, but because its nice to give the left a taste of their own medicine.houseboy wrote:It's no use saying this mate, I've argued this point with so many people but they don't want to know - especially if they are anti-Labour. Unfortunately many people cannot see the difference between criticising the actions of a government and criticising a race of people connected with the country (even if they don't live there).
I subscribe to an American Jewish website and it is full of criticisms of Israel and deplores it's actions. The people writing the articles are Jews - they are fine people - they want the world to take action over the crimes against Palestine. Israel is a rogue state that takes no notice of the opinions of the world and even gets support from some of it (Us and America mainly).
The line between anti-semitism and anti-Israel is very clear and the two are mutually exclusive but that line is blurred by those who are to stupid to see it or can see it clearly but ignore it in order to force an agenda of their own.
As I thought no one has or can as the allegations are just a load of covert nonsense.South West Claret. wrote:Can someone list them then please?
It's worked though, hasn't it? Not in the sense that anyone actually believes it, because they don't. Virtually nobody changed their vote because they were persuaded Corbyn was a racist. Yet, in spite of this, it still managed to destroy Corbyn. Fascinating when you think about it, isn't it?ClaretMoffitt wrote:tbh I know its almost entirely bull, and the media/right wing are just hammering this antisemitism drum as a means to beat Labour and the hard left with. I think most people know this in reality, for me though I just hammer the drum not because I believe its true, but because its nice to give the left a taste of their own medicine.
Mistreatment and bullying of junior staff investigating allegations, interference in the " Independent " disciplinary proceedings by the Leaders Office, forcing leaving staff to sign Non disclosure agreements, whitewash of an " internal enquiry ", led by Shami Chakrabarti ( She reported her findings in 2 months, and got the title of Baroness, on Corbyn's recommendation 8 weeks later ! ), evidence of holocaust denial, members calling for the destruction of Israel, the usual outpourings of Corbyn on Iranian state TV and him sharing platforms with terrorists ....South West Claret. wrote:As I thought no one has or can as the allegations are just a load of covert nonsense.
Tom Watson appears to believe it.If it be your will wrote:It's worked though, hasn't it? Not in the sense that anyone actually believes it, because they don't.
Wouldn't expect anything else from him.levraiclaret wrote:
Yep.Clarets4me wrote:Some shocking revelations ... any thoughts ?
Does he hell! Of all the people that secretly know the whole thing is complete tosh, it's Tom Watson!levraiclaret wrote:
I must say that I do not think clarets4me is a liarWexford_Claret wrote:Yep.
It was made by a former Sun journalist who’s previously had to apologise for lying in ‘documentaries’ on Corbyn and a prominent Palestinian activist.
A number of the e-mails in last night’s ‘documentary’ were edited so as to fit the programme’s agenda.
And, of course, there’s the fact that anybody who can look at a lifelong anti-racist campaigner (who did more for the disciplinary process on anti-Jewish hatred than any other Labour leader) and call him anti-Semitic is either a liar or a moron.
That made me smile.Devils_Advocate wrote:I must say that I do not think clarets4me is a liar
Then why did he say he does?If it be your will wrote:Does he hell! Of all the people that secretly know the whole thing is complete tosh, it's Tom Watson!
A Jewish Labour MP has resigned the Labour whip, one left the party altogether, and three long serving Labour members of the Lords have resigned from the party, but it's all an Establishment plot against the " Magic Grandpa " , apparently ....If it be your will wrote:That made me smile. (But I disagree. I think he, too, knows full well it's all a load of nonsense. We all do. That's what makes it all so interesting.)
Ah, I'm with you now!levraiclaret wrote:Then why did he say he does?
Its the neo-liberal globalists that do this to both our sides, to them it all comes down to money. That is all.If it be your will wrote:It's worked though, hasn't it? Not in the sense that anyone actually believes it, because they don't. Virtually nobody changed their vote because they were persuaded Corbyn was a racist. Yet, in spite of this, it still managed to destroy Corbyn. Fascinating when you think about it, isn't it?
And the legacy of all this is that all 5 major UK parties have (ludicrously) adopted the IHRA definition for use as a disciplinary tool - probably for ever.
If Israel did have any hand in this, they've played an absolute blinder.
I was actually going to say that I'd noticed very similar tactics being used against the 'far' right in the past (i.e anything socially or economically to the right of say, the Tories), the haunting music accompanying images - that sort of nonsense! Even though I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum, I can still see it. Going right back to Nick Griffin, I said loudly at the time this is not the correct approach, that it will only have short term success, and that you have to sensibly debate instead. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the endless tricks and nonsense can keep the neoliberal order going indefinitely, even when their model dramatically and utterly fails, as it did in 2008.ClaretMoffitt wrote:Its the neo-liberal globalists that do this to both our sides, to them it all comes down to money. That is all.
Anti-immigration will cost them money so they do everything they can to attack those who call for that.
And left wing economic policy will cost them money so they do everything they can to attack those who call for that.
They have pulled a blinder though as you say, they have the left and right right constantly fighting over the ill's that they themselves have created in society.
Corbyn is very dangerous to the Neo liberal consensus. He’ll tax them more, and in nationalising some sectors of the economy, they will lose easy rentier profit opportunities. What is worse from their standpoint is that many people will see improvements in their standards of living, and this will win him support in taxing the very rich further.If it be your will wrote:I was actually going to say that I'd noticed very similar tactics being used against the 'far' right in the past (i.e anything socially or economically to the right of say, the Tories), the haunting music accompanying images - that sort of nonsense! Even though I'm on the opposite end of the political spectrum, I can still see it. Going right back to Nick Griffin, I said loudly at the time this is not the correct approach, that it will only have short term success, and that you have to sensibly debate instead. But perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps the endless tricks and nonsense can keep the neoliberal order going indefinitely, even when their model dramatically and utterly fails, as it did in 2008.
I think Farage will largely escape it, though, because he won't significantly change anything, I don't think. And I genuinely believe Tommy Robinson was always too stupid to pose a proper threat. Is there anyone at your end of the political spectrum with the intelligence and required nouse to be 'dangerous' at the moment, by the way? It'll be interesting to see how they'll be treated.
(All that said, I didn't really consider Corbyn to be 'dangerous'! I mean, look at him!! He makes a wicked apple and blackberry jam, you know?)
Do you mind if I ask what medicine that is?ClaretMoffitt wrote:tbh I know its almost entirely bull, and the media/right wing are just hammering this antisemitism drum as a means to beat Labour and the hard left with. I think most people know this in reality, for me though I just hammer the drum not because I believe its true, but because its nice to give the left a taste of their own medicine.
(Still using the present and future tenses, eh? Well I hope you're right, I suppose. IHRA, mandatory reselection, and now Brexit. He's backed down once too many times to survive, I think. The Blairites smell blood, now!)AndrewJB wrote:Corbyn is very dangerous to the Neo liberal consensus. He’ll tax them more, and in nationalising some sectors of the economy, they will lose easy rentier profit opportunities. What is worse from their standpoint is that many people will see improvements in their standards of living, and this will win him support in taxing the very rich further.
You’re closer to the action than me, so I’ve felt rather dismayed at your prognoses. Reading AAV’s review and Jon Lansmenn’s in the Guardian, it sounds as though the Panorama documentary was set out with an anti Corbyn agenda. Not giving right of reply to various people accusations were levelled at, editing emails out of context, and not even mentioning that the people they interviewed from the previous complaints procedure allowed the huge backlog of complaints to build up in the first place, are huge errors for a supposedly truth seeking program. And this: https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/ ... r.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;If it be your will wrote:(Still using the present and future tenses, eh? Well I hope you're right, I suppose. IHRA, mandatory reselection, and now Brexit. He's backed down once too many times to survive, I think. The Blairites smell blood, now!)
I agree.AndrewJB wrote: To me it’s all to transparently contrived to be taken seriously, but I suppose we’ll have to wait until the next election to see.
It's actually funnier than Campbell putting out grossly antisemitic posters under Blair, then joining the antisemitism bandwagon under Corbyn. It turns out the boy on Panorama was present when Joan Ryan - arch Corbyn critic who left for Change UK with a stream of anti-Corbyn abuse - was negotiating a million quid off Israel for Labour Friends of Israel! She went on to describe people of Colour a 'funny tinge' on telly, remember (Edit - I'm wrong here, this was actually Change UK's Angela Smith. Joan Ryan was the 'Look at your hands' one)! And that girl on Panorama? that totally broken one? It's all over twitter that she's a martial arts expert that has previously worked for the Israeli embassy! I've no idea if any of this is true because I can't be bothered with it anymore. But bonkers though he is, George Galloway's timeline has been funny to read the last couple of days. Here's that boy off Panorama, for instance:AndrewJB wrote:You’re closer to the action than me, so I’ve felt rather dismayed at your prognoses. Reading AAV’s review and Jon Lansmenn’s in the Guardian, it sounds as though the Panorama documentary was set out with an anti Corbyn agenda. Not giving right of reply to various people accusations were levelled at, editing emails out of context, and not even mentioning that the people they interviewed from the previous complaints procedure allowed the huge backlog of complaints to build up in the first place, are huge errors for a supposedly truth seeking program. And this: https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/ ... r.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To me it’s all to transparently contrived to be taken seriously, but I suppose we’ll have to wait until the next election to see.
Yes you are right but why do they let their anti Jewish views spew forth? Just keep quiet but no the bile spews forth. Its horrible.Burnley Ace wrote:There are more votes to be won in the Muslim block than the Jewish, there's no need to for Labour to pander to the Jewish vote so they can let their anti Israel views spew forth.
They cannot help themselves, it’s like Tourette’s!Stayingup wrote:Yes you are right but why do they let their anti Jewish views spew forth? Just keep quiet but no the bile spews forth. Its horrible.
Can I ask, are you really bothered about any anti-semitic behaviour?android wrote:Some surreal contributions on this and the other thread for sure.
The linked Panorama "critique" even tried to claim that antisemitism in the Labour party had hugely decreased under Corbyn !! That will be a great relief to British Jews I'm sure. You might as well say that Liverpool won the league last season - after all the Daily Mail reported City winning the title so it can't possibly be true.
Anyway, back in the real world, Philip Collins (Labour supporter or previous Labour supporter) summed up the situation pretty well in the Times (Murdoch filth I know) today: "Labour can rid itself of the virus of antisemitism or it can be led by Jeremy Corbyn and his friends but it cannot do both". Corbyn and his friends hold the views they have always held and they are not going to change so it is pointless thinking he will ever deal with antisemitism when it comes from people who share his world view. (But yes, if you are a right wing (Tory or pre Corbyn Labour) council trying to close a Jewish cemetery, Corbyn will leave his blackberry jam making and be all over you like a rash claiming oppression of a minority - right on comrade).
The rump of people who still hang onto to the smear/conspiracy delusion are never going to change their minds but at least it now seems to be a small minority.
It's a good question, which we should perhaps ask ourselves from time to time whatever our politics (even if you intended it as a bit of point scoring banter!), so I will give it a full answer.Spijed wrote:Can I ask, are you really bothered about any anti-semitic behaviour?
I admire your honesty. You are aware, though, that by saying this, you are openly admitting you actively sought to weaponise antisemitism against Corbyn, for reasons totally unrelated to the persecution of Jews? And if you did it, do you think others may have been guilty of this, too, or were you a lone exception? Considering you misused the antisemitism cause before, should we believe you are not still doing so? Also, you are admitting that all those that were saying the issue was being weaponised against Corbyn were not hopeless denialists after all, and were actually right all along?android wrote:It's a good question, which we should perhaps ask ourselves from time to time whatever our politics (even if you intended it as a bit of point scoring banter!), so I will give it a full answer.
The truth is that when the Corbyn antisemitism stuff all started to come out a few years ago I was primarily motivated by nailing Corbyn. I think his world view is a joke and the idea of him being our PM is ludicrous. His Marxism/Communism/Socialism (all bases covered by his closest team) can never work due to human nature and it has been proven over and over that capitalism (with a social conscience) is the least bad solution. On top of that, his world view is to blame the West for all the worlds ills and as a result he naturally sides with enemies of Britain (Russia, Iran etc), so it is unthinkable that he could actually be our Prime Minister.
So initially I didn't think much about the antisemitism to be honest probably because it wasn't that visible to me as: a) I thought it was confined to a few cranks of Corbyn's ilk and b) because I don't think I am close to any Jewish people.
But since then we have seen much more of the actual suffering and fear amongst British Jews, as a result of Corbyn allowing antisemitism to fester, which of course bothers me. It probably didn't really hit home fully with me until it became apparent that Corbyn wasn't even trying to deal with the problem of antisemitism and he or his advisers decided that the best form of defence was to play the look over there card - the Tories have an Islamaphobia problem. That kind of politics to me is utterly disgusting, as it is further spreading hatred and division. The reason that strikes more of a chord with me now is that, while I don't have any close Jewish friends, I do have a significant number of close Muslim friends. So the encouragement of division that Corbyn has brought about - one lot supposedly on the side of Jews and the other on the side of muslims - bothers me enormously and the effects are close enough to me for it to be very real.
Wow. Sometimes the simplest of questions can get the most revealing of answers.Spijed wrote:Can I ask, are you really bothered about any anti-semitic behaviour?