Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

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warksclaret
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Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:24 pm

Has anyone ever had a speeding offence where the photo cannot identify the driver. I received one but because its a lease car I did not find out until 6 weeks later (all the police need to do is advise the lease company within 14 days), Whilst its a company car my wife also drives it at weekends.With it being so long after the event and it being over the Easter weekend, I knew it was not being used on business but both of us regularly do the drive to the local shops at weekends,where the offence occurred. I requested a photo in order to identify which of us was driving , but the photo was from behind the car so inconclusive. I provided a detailed written explanation stating that we genuinely did not know who was driving, but they have responded by saying its the responsibility of the registered owner(me) to keep a record of who is driving the vehicle at anyone time and this in itself is an offence if you cannot provide. The AA on their web site state that failure to keep records of the driver can lead to 6 points. Has anyone experienced something similar and is there any advice on how I proceed. Would be grateful to hear

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by ClaretAndJew » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:29 pm

Who else has access to it?

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by claptrappers_union » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:30 pm

The person with fewest points was driving

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:32 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:The person with fewest points was driving
This, or if you know someone who's got no points and is happy to help...

warksclaret
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:38 pm

My wife is the only one who has access other than me and before you ask I would not ask her to take the points (remember the MP who was jailed for this ??)

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by NL Claret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:39 pm

When you thought UTC couldn't stoop much lower......just go on a speed awareness course , could be money well spent.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:39 pm

warksclaret wrote:My wife is the only one who has access other than me and before you ask I would not ask her to take the points (remember the MP who was jailed for this ??)
Yeah we remember the MP who was jailed, but they were clearly inept at lying/keeping a secret which is surprising for an MP.

It happens more than you'd think, but not everyone goes round blabbing about it.

warksclaret
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:40 pm

I cannot, as I have been on a recent one and you cannot go on another for 3 years

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by ClaretAndJew » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:41 pm

warksclaret wrote:My wife is the only one who has access other than me and before you ask I would not ask her to take the points (remember the MP who was jailed for this ??)
Then just toss a coin and whoever loses takes the fine.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:42 pm

I worked on a development a few years ago where one of the directors was also a magistrate. Similar story to yours there's was in Manchester and it was a genuine case of we don't know who was driving and they got off with it. Both were prepared to take the points or do the course but two people can't be done apparently. Might have changed since.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by SonofPog » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:44 pm

You or the wife? seems like a clear choice to me. ;-)

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:44 pm

Thanks BFCJG-that's the best suggestion so far

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:47 pm

Meant to put this link in.
http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/disput ... river.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

warksclaret
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:52 pm

Bfcg -appreciate the effort you have made. Thanks for the attachment. There is one very good case study to make reference too when I respond

Thank you my friend

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by bfcjg » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:57 pm

No problem. The rich and famous test the law when it comes to motoring why shouldn't the rest of us.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:02 pm

Fully agree-thanks again

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:31 pm

warksclaret wrote:Has anyone ever had a speeding offence where the photo cannot identify the driver. I received one but because its a lease car I did not find out until 6 weeks later (all the police need to do is advise the lease company within 14 days), Whilst its a company car my wife also drives it at weekends.With it being so long after the event and it being over the Easter weekend, I knew it was not being used on business but both of us regularly do the drive to the local shops at weekends,where the offence occurred. I requested a photo in order to identify which of us was driving , but the photo was from behind the car so inconclusive. I provided a detailed written explanation stating that we genuinely did not know who was driving, but they have responded by saying its the responsibility of the registered owner(me) to keep a record of who is driving the vehicle at anyone time and this in itself is an offence if you cannot provide. The AA on their web site state that failure to keep records of the driver can lead to 6 points. Has anyone experienced something similar and is there any advice on how I proceed. Would be grateful to hear
Pay the fine and stop speeding.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by tim_noone » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:52 pm

warksclaret wrote:Has anyone ever had a speeding offence where the photo cannot identify the driver. I received one but because its a lease car I did not find out until 6 weeks later (all the police need to do is advise the lease company within 14 days), Whilst its a company car my wife also drives it at weekends.With it being so long after the event and it being over the Easter weekend, I knew it was not being used on business but both of us regularly do the drive to the local shops at weekends,where the offence occurred. I requested a photo in order to identify which of us was driving , but the photo was from behind the car so inconclusive. I provided a detailed written explanation stating that we genuinely did not know who was driving, but they have responded by saying its the responsibility of the registered owner(me) to keep a record of who is driving the vehicle at anyone time and this in itself is an offence if you cannot provide. The AA on their web site state that failure to keep records of the driver can lead to 6 points. Has anyone experienced something similar and is there any advice on how I proceed. Would be grateful to hear
Respond to the notification ..take the three points. Irrespective you will get 6points and a massive fine if you ignore. We went down the unsure who was driving route 10 or so years ago.and mislaid correspondence from the police.A letter dropped on the mat with 6 points and a £ 500 fine!! For the missus "registered"owner. the Law had then been changed. She Appealed the conviction citing the mislaid correspondence.the points stuck the fine was waived. On travelling from Burnley to Bournemouth Magistrates court "I was Driving" :D I got 3 points for Speeding in an average speed check area of the Motorway!!!

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Wile E Coyote » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:17 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Pay the fine and stop speeding.
christ, the arrogance of this post , and from the boards resident know it all smug git.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by tim_noone » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:19 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:christ, the arrogance of this post , and from the boards resident know it all smug git.
Tbf he is right wile.... :D
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Wile E Coyote » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:28 pm

tim_noone wrote:Tbf he is right wile.... :D
in essence, but that curt response is crass. can almost picture the sanctimonious expression as he replied.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Chobulous » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:30 pm

Just fecking man up and take your medicine you absolute tosspot
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:52 am

Wile E Coyote wrote:christ, the arrogance of this post , and from the boards resident know it all smug git.
So easily upset. Living up to your username.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by No Ney Never » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:07 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Pay the fine and stop speeding.
Stop speeding I agree with, pay the fine I don't.
The OP has clearly stated that he doesn't know who was driving, so why should he?
If you take the trouble to read the link attached to Bfcjg's post, you'll see that there is a lawful process that can be persued.
For someone who sees the world through the internet, I'd have thought you would have considered this before posting, or are you just being arsey?...again!

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:21 am

I posted on here as a lot of the readers have immense knowledge and experience, and I have never been failed to be impressed by some of the good advice on here. Couple of the posters on this thread have gone out of their way to help me for which I am grateful. The car I just handed in had 110,000 miles done in 3 years-mainly business. I simply cannot afford to amass points on my license-I need the car for work.I got the summons nearly 7 weeks after the offence,as its a lease car, and during the weekend when we both regularly use the car. There is speeding and speeding-this was 35 in a 30 in a rural area

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Dyched » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:25 am

Stop ******* speeding

Speed cameras need replacing with Anti Speed Missile Systems. Any speeding and booooom, no points, no fines just take care of the problem.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by durhamclaret » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:29 am

How ya doin warks, well I hope.
Know the feeling, I've just got done for 38 in a 30 in a non built up area.
Occupational hazard for you I guess.
Cheers

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by warksclaret » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:14 am

Hi Durham-well thanks. Trust you are too. Coming up to retirement so more time to watch the team.regards

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Billy Balfour » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:09 pm

This is off topic, but driving related. The other day I was doing 70mph while driving down the M65 in the left hand lane towards Preston. The car behind was tailgating - not even a car's length from me. He could have overtaken at any point, but no, he was near enough glued to my bumper.

If I slowed down, he slowed too. This was incompetent driving on his part rather than aggressive driving. A traffic cop was parked up in a bay a couple of miles past the Shadsworth's junction. I thought 'got you now, you arsehole', but nope. Totally ignored him. The tailgating law seems to be ignored by idiots and the enforcers alike. Apparently, it kills or seriously injures more than 100 people a year.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:48 pm

If used correctly tailgating is a key driving skill to get slow drivers out of the middle and fast lane.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:17 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:If used correctly tailgating is a key driving skill to get slow drivers out of the middle and fast lane.
Reduces drag as well. The best way to get optimum MPG on the motorway whilst in turn reducing carbon emissions.
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Pstotto » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:54 pm

If you've got a g.p.s. phone then its location can be tracked over distance and speed calculated. If that phone belongs to the accused occupant of the car, then it's quite damning evidence.

They call it the tachograph in the sky, from what I've heard, there's a police traffic satellite checking all phone locations and travel.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by elwaclaret » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:06 pm

NL Claret wrote:When you thought UTC couldn't stoop much lower......just go on a speed awareness course , could be money well spent.
Had to go on one last week. There had been a speed change on a road I used to drive daily (40 down to 20) so I was six over instead of 4 under as I thought... it is amazing how much you forget when you have been driving so long. While I wouldn’t volunteer I actually found it very useful. Some of it you do but you’ve even forgotten why....
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rick_Muller » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:35 pm

Pstotto wrote:If you've got a g.p.s. phone then its location can be tracked over distance and speed calculated. If that phone belongs to the accused occupant of the car, then it's quite damning evidence.

They call it the tachograph in the sky, from what I've heard, there's a police traffic satellite checking all phone locations and travel.
There is not a big brother satellite in the Sky Pete, that would be just daft considering that each and every smartphone has gps built in and most users leave location services switched on. If needed, the police can request info from your phone provider, but only if needed.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Hendrickxz » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:48 am

Why not toss a coin to decide which one of you takes the rap? :)

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:15 am

Surely it is your responsibility to recall who was driving the car. Otherwise you and your wife could drive around wearing balaclavas as fast as you like and plead ignorance when caught. Can you honestly not recall who was driving on that day and does the location of the offence not give it away?

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Damo » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:25 am

In instances like this, they should prosecute every person who has access to the vehicle. The threat of that would make people remember who the culprit was, and close this loophole for good
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by deanothedino » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:32 am

No Ney Never wrote:Stop speeding I agree with, pay the fine I don't.
The OP has clearly stated that he doesn't know who was driving, so why should he?
If you take the trouble to read the link attached to Bfcjg's post, you'll see that there is a lawful process that can be persued.
For someone who sees the world through the internet, I'd have thought you would have considered this before posting, or are you just being arsey?...again!
Because he's the registered keeper of the vehicle and he is responsible for it.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:39 pm

deanothedino wrote:Because he's the registered keeper of the vehicle and he is responsible for it.
All those who share a car and keep a detailed log of who was driving and where, stand up now.

I don't see many people standing. Who in the real world does that?

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by claret2018 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:45 pm

Damo wrote:In instances like this, they should prosecute every person who has access to the vehicle. The threat of that would make people remember who the culprit was, and close this loophole for good
I can't see any problem with this idea at all

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:08 pm

dsr wrote:All those who share a car and keep a detailed log of who was driving and where, stand up now.

I don't see many people standing. Who in the real world does that?
I would definitely be able to recall who was driving the vehicle on said day in a specified location. Maybe if you can’t then you should keep a log. See my balaclava scenario above.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:28 pm

Rileybobs wrote:I would definitely be able to recall who was driving the vehicle on said day in a specified location. Maybe if you can’t then you should keep a log. See my balaclava scenario above.
That's pretty impressive. Not many of us, if asked who went to the shop for a bottle of milk 6 weeks ago, would have such prefect recall. I'e just come back from a week in Ireland with my brother and I both driving, and I'm willing to bet that if you were to ask in 6 weeks' time which of us did the daily shop on Tuesday, I wouldn't know. Well, I don't know now as it happens.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:43 pm

dsr wrote:That's pretty impressive. Not many of us, if asked who went to the shop for a bottle of milk 6 weeks ago, would have such prefect recall. I'e just come back from a week in Ireland with my brother and I both driving, and I'm willing to bet that if you were to ask in 6 weeks' time which of us did the daily shop on Tuesday, I wouldn't know. Well, I don't know now as it happens.
Most people have routines and make the same journeys on the same days there or thereabouts - not always, granted. Your trip in Ireland would be an exception I imagine. I am very confident that I would be able to tell you who out of my partner and I was making said journey. If in doubt, there is a good chance that an appointment in our respective diaries would give it away.

Edit - failing that I can use location services on my phone which have a comprehensive list of places I’ve visited and on which date. If the OP has an iPhone then he and his wife could do the same.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:07 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Most people have routines and make the same journeys on the same days there or thereabouts - not always, granted. Your trip in Ireland would be an exception I imagine. I am very confident that I would be able to tell you who out of my partner and I was making said journey. If in doubt, there is a good chance that an appointment in our respective diaries would give it away.

Edit - failing that I can use location services on my phone which have a comprehensive list of places I’ve visited and on which date. If the OP has an iPhone then he and his wife could do the same.
Diary appointments don't help with who'#s doing the shopping. The phone might help, if they weren't both in the car and if it was switched on. (I presume a switched off iphone doesn't broadcast its location?)

Of you and your partner, who bought the bottle of milk on 31st May or nearest day thereto?

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:17 pm

dsr wrote:Diary appointments don't help with who'#s doing the shopping. The phone might help, if they weren't both in the car and if it was switched on. (I presume a switched off iphone doesn't broadcast its location?)

Of you and your partner, who bought the bottle of milk on 31st May or nearest day thereto?
Well firstly I do my shopping online. But secondly I note that 31st May was a Friday. I often have a couple of lunchtime beers and sometimes stay out after work and catch up with mates for a few. So I take the train into work unless I have a meeting that I need to drive to.

Having consulted my calendar, I didn’t have any appointments outside of the office on that day so it stands to reason I used the train. My iPhone location services show me at Leeds Station on that morning which backs that up. Curiously it shows me at my mates house in the evening which reminds me that it was his wedding the morning after and as his best man I stayed at his the evening before and drunk quite a lot of scotch.

Too much information, I know, but goes some way to proving my point.

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Bosscat » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Notice of Impending prosecution1 .jpg
Notice of Impending prosecution1 .jpg (65.94 KiB) Viewed 2378 times
Notice of Impending prosecutio 2.jpg
Notice of Impending prosecutio 2.jpg (63.48 KiB) Viewed 2378 times

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by The Quattro » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 pm

The test in these cases is whether or not the identity of the driver could be ascertained by exercising due diligence. You would need to demonstrate that you took all reasonable steps to identify the driver.

Particularly relevant to you is the stated case of Marshall v CPS 2015.

http://stokenewingtonchambers.co.uk/wp- ... allcps.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:35 pm

I wonder about the legality of not releasing the photo before the court hearing. There are no other criminal offences, so far as I know, where the prosecution isn't obliged to tell the defendant what the evidence is against him.

The other one I wonder about is what happens if the husband and wife (whether genuinely or because they are trying it on) each declare that the other was driving. Does the court toss a coin?

Or as an even sneakier complication, what happens if husband and wife both claim to have been driving? Or perhaps both say that they can't be sure, but each of them believes themselves to have been driving? Can they both be convicted of the same defence, in cricumstances where for any other offence both would be acquitted? Or does the court toss a coin again?

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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by dsr » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:36 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Well firstly I do my shopping online. But secondly I note that 31st May was a Friday. I often have a couple of lunchtime beers and sometimes stay out after work and catch up with mates for a few. So I take the train into work unless I have a meeting that I need to drive to.

Having consulted my calendar, I didn’t have any appointments outside of the office on that day so it stands to reason I used the train. My iPhone location services show me at Leeds Station on that morning which backs that up. Curiously it shows me at my mates house in the evening which reminds me that it was his wedding the morning after and as his best man I stayed at his the evening before and drunk quite a lot of scotch.

Too much information, I know, but goes some way to proving my point.
You're way ahead of me on the digital information stakes. If one of us gets accused of murder, I hope it's you - you'll have the better alibi! :twisted:

Rileybobs
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Re: Speeding Conviction Where Photo Inconclusive

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:39 pm

dsr wrote:You're way ahead of me on the digital information stakes. If one of us gets accused of murder, I hope it's you - you'll have the better alibi! :twisted:
Only if it’s on a Friday!! :D

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