Bus Lane Tickets

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AndrewJB
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Bus Lane Tickets

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:22 am

I've been fighting one of these tickets since January of this year, but today received a final rejection letter from my council. I can now take it to a tribunal or pay a reduced penalty.

I've fought the ticket on the basis that I was making a left turn, I travelled only a short distance (about fifteen metres) in the bus lane, didn't impede traffic in any way - there were no buses in the bus lane at the time, and I'm aware that cars idling on that stretch of road are a significant source of pollution. I was also under the impression at the time that my circumstances wouldn't incur a fine - otherwise I wouldn't have done it.

The only online site I've found to back up my case is here: https://www.carfinance247.co.uk/blogpos ... -lane-fine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The councils own advice says that cars cannot travel in a bus lane to turn left until the arrows on the road indicate you can.

Has anyone got first hand experience in this kind of case? I'm not fighting this as a means of getting one over on the man, but because I think it's over zealous enforcement, but if I'm clearly in the wrong then I don't want to waste people's time.

Thanks in advance.

Quickenthetempo
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Quickenthetempo » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:37 am

Family have had to pay for entering a bus lane for a few metres, before realising and getting back out.

Also stopping at Liverpool airport (well out the way) for 5 seconds and boom, fine in the post.

If it's sign posted clearly you won't win

Wokingclaret
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Wokingclaret » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:43 am

Been stung in London by one, where the stretch was 7 til 19:00 and then further up it suddenly changed to all day
Pay your fine and stay clear of them unless you know its not active.

They can't get you if you don't enter them
Last edited by Wokingclaret on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

dsr
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:43 am

You're clearly not in the wrong morally because bus lanes are there to assist the flow of buses, and skipping past a queue for 15 yards doesn't impede anything. But legally, you're in the wrong because putting one wheel into a bus lane is against the rules.

Is it Blackburn council? They're demons for enforcement. They don't mind how many people they discourage from coming to Blackburn, as long as they get their pound of flesh. Most councils allow a certain leeway, perhaps 20 yards, at each end of a bus lane where they don't enforce it. Blackburn don't.

claret2018
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by claret2018 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:49 am

Were you driving a bus at the time?
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Hendrickxz
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Hendrickxz » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:49 am

If you don't like bus lanes never go to Nottingham or Preston. As for Liverpool Airport, it's to divert you into the car parks where you have to pay. Those tossers are there in their van night and day. I have arrived back after midnight and there they are cynically trapping people when there's sod all traffic about. :evil:

AndrewJB
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:18 am

Thanks for the replies. This is in London, local to my house. As I illustrated to the council I was turning left to get onto my street, but they've firmly rejected every explanation letter. If I do go ahead and fight it, I'll let you know how it goes.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:31 am

If you can be arsed stick a post on Money saving Expert and you'll get spot on advice on whether it is worth fighting and if it is how you should go about it and make your defence.

I had a private parking ticket that I was ignoring and had a County Court Claim raised against me and with the help of MSE I got them to back down and revoke it in no time

houseboy
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:41 am

dsr wrote:You're clearly not in the wrong morally because bus lanes are there to assist the flow of buses, and skipping past a queue for 15 yards doesn't impede anything. But legally, you're in the wrong because putting one wheel into a bus lane is against the rules.

Is it Blackburn council? They're demons for enforcement. They don't mind how many people they discourage from coming to Blackburn, as long as they get their pound of flesh. Most councils allow a certain leeway, perhaps 20 yards, at each end of a bus lane where they don't enforce it. Blackburn don't.
Apparently Blackburn are vicious when enforcing the bus lane rules. I work in Darwen and fortunately don't have to go into Blackburn from where I live but I do go to Blackburn quite a lot as well and it is the oddest place to drive around anyway. I said to my wife just recently I would hate to drive round the place if I didn't know it, it has bus lanes that are on stretches with a lot of left turns and a one way system that I am convinced is devised and regularly changed by some bloke of limited mental capacity who they keep locked in a padded cell, only to be used when they want to yet again f**k up the road system. Said individual obviously does not actually drive either.

I did however once get caught in a 'bus lane situation' in Manchester (the stretch heading into the city from the Prestwich end) and was prosecuted. I didn't bother arguing the toss - I was wrong.
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Bosscat
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Bosscat » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:46 am

AndrewJB wrote:I've been fighting one of these tickets since January of this year, but today received a final rejection letter from my council. I can now take it to a tribunal or pay a reduced penalty.

I've fought the ticket on the basis that I was making a left turn, I travelled only a short distance (about fifteen metres) in the bus lane, didn't impede traffic in any way - there were no buses in the bus lane at the time, and I'm aware that cars idling on that stretch of road are a significant source of pollution. I was also under the impression at the time that my circumstances wouldn't incur a fine - otherwise I wouldn't have done it.

The only online site I've found to back up my case is here: https://www.carfinance247.co.uk/blogpos ... -lane-fine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The councils own advice says that cars cannot travel in a bus lane to turn left until the arrows on the road indicate you can.

Has anyone got first hand experience in this kind of case? I'm not fighting this as a means of getting one over on the man, but because I think it's over zealous enforcement, but if I'm clearly in the wrong then I don't want to waste people's time.

Thanks in advance.
This answer should have been in the "top tips" thread.

How to avoid congestion and drive in bus lanes...


Buy a bus

Herts Clarets
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Herts Clarets » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:52 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:If you can be arsed stick a post on Money saving Expert and you'll get spot on advice on whether it is worth fighting and if it is how you should go about it and make your defence.

I had a private parking ticket that I was ignoring and had a County Court Claim raised against me and with the help of MSE I got them to back down and revoke it in no time
The advice on there is usually in relation to Parking Charge Notices issued by private enforcement companies. Anything that is issued by a local authority is legally enforceable subject to following their appeals procedures. I deal with a number of local authorities in London and Home Counties regarding PCNs and enforcement. I have appealed a number of these successfully - delivering to a Jewish School and stopping on a red route whilst the gates were opened was one success, similar with stopping on zig zags outside a school in order to reverse into their car park.

Unfortunately anything that is related to a box junction, bus lane etc. seem non negotiable. I have appealed a couple of these without any degree of success. Good luck with this one, but from experience I don't fancy your chances.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Foulthrow » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:52 am

Father-in-law got done recently. He went into the bus lane to make way for an ambulance. Appealed. Rejected. Had to pay.

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:57 am

Herts Clarets wrote:The advice on there is usually in relation to Parking Charge Notices issued by private enforcement companies. Anything that is issued by a local authority is legally enforceable subject to following their appeals procedures. I deal with a number of local authorities in London and Home Counties regarding PCNs and enforcement. I have appealed a number of these successfully - delivering to a Jewish School and stopping on a red route whilst the gates were opened was one success, similar with stopping on zig zags outside a school in order to reverse into their car park.

Unfortunately anything that is related to a box junction, bus lane etc. seem non negotiable. I have appealed a couple of these without any degree of success. Good luck with this one, but from experience I don't fancy your chances.
Agree but MSE is good on all sorts of topics so whist the help for me was on Private Parking Notices I reckon that you'd get equally as good advice on something like a Bus Lane ticket even if that advice is just suck it up ad save your effort as you've no chance of appealing it.

Sounds like you have decent experience in this area and can give solid advice yourself

dsr
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:02 pm

Foulthrow wrote:Father-in-law got done recently. He went into the bus lane to make way for an ambulance. Appealed. Rejected. Had to pay.
And if he had stayed in the normal lane and let the ambulance past in the bus lane, they'd have probably charged the ambulance.

I sometimes wonder if "I thought it was a policeman" defence would work. If a policeman in a panda car tells you to move into a bus lane by flashing his blue light, then you're allowed to; would claiming you thought it was a policeman's blue light do the trick?

Foulthrow
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Foulthrow » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:09 pm

dsr wrote:And if he had stayed in the normal lane and let the ambulance past in the bus lane, they'd have probably charged the ambulance.

I sometimes wonder if "I thought it was a policeman" defence would work. If a policeman in a panda car tells you to move into a bus lane by flashing his blue light, then you're allowed to; would claiming you thought it was a policeman's blue light do the trick?
Policemen don't have Panda cars. They all have brand new BMWs yet complain about cuts.

And, I assume it wouldn't work as the ambulance had its flashing lights on.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Fretters » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:18 pm

houseboy wrote:Apparently Blackburn are vicious when enforcing the bus lane rules. I work in Darwen and fortunately don't have to go into Blackburn from where I live but I do go to Blackburn quite a lot as well and it is the oddest place to drive around anyway. I said to my wife just recently I would hate to drive round the place if I didn't know it, it has bus lanes that are on stretches with a lot of left turns and a one way system that I am convinced is devised and regularly changed by some bloke of limited mental capacity who they keep locked in a padded cell, only to be used when they want to yet again f**k up the road system. Said individual obviously does not actually drive either.

I did however once get caught in a 'bus lane situation' in Manchester (the stretch heading into the city from the Prestwich end) and was prosecuted. I didn't bother arguing the toss - I was wrong.
I also work in Darwen and was caught by the camera near the motorway lights (heading away from Darwen towards Ewood). I nipped in for about five metres before it turned into a standard lane as the right-hand lane, which I didn't need, was queuing. I won't be making that mistake again - I did appeal to their better nature (it was just before Christmas too), but at the end of the day it was my fault so they were never going to let me off.

houseboy
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:00 pm

Fretters wrote:I also work in Darwen and was caught by the camera near the motorway lights (heading away from Darwen towards Ewood). I nipped in for about five metres before it turned into a standard lane as the right-hand lane, which I didn't need, was queuing. I won't be making that mistake again - I did appeal to their better nature (it was just before Christmas too), but at the end of the day it was my fault so they were never going to let me off.
I know the rules are there for a reason but the lack of pragmatism I find somewhat startling. I was caught a few years ago by a mobile speed camera near Hollands Pies in Baxenden (they are there fairly regularly). Fact: I was speeding (not massively but yes I was). However it was a Sunday afternoon and I had just had a call that my mother had been rushed to hospital (she subsequently died 3 days later so it wasn't 'minor'). When I got the ticket I explained the situation and asked for a certain amount of understanding (who wouldn't speed if their sick mum had been rushed to hospital), even offering to produce the death certificate as proof. No. Not a jot. It was then I fully realised that the people who run these things really, I mean really, don't give a f**k.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Pay up and move on , technically your guilty in all fairness ,not worth wasting your time on

theroyaldyche
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by theroyaldyche » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:14 pm

Pay it

South West Claret.
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by South West Claret. » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:20 pm

Sorry lads but guilty as charged and if you do want to complain then send it to the Government as they make the laws.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:24 pm

got caught in blackburn and had no idea i was doing anything wrong, somewhere near ewood just heading towards the town centre, Bolton road.

Hipper
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Hipper » Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:38 pm

In the OP's link, the second picture down looks like a trolley bus - a bus with links to overhead cables.

Does London now again have trolley buses?

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:29 pm

My Wife was fined for being in a bus lane on Oxford Road, Manchester near the University.
The photo was hilarious.
Cars are now banned altogether on Oxford Rd there.

She was the only car and about 4 buses.
I did say to her, " I bet you thought it was quiet?"
"Well actually, I did" was her reply.

She gets done about twice a year. It's never her fault usually it's the sat nav's.

She thinks these lanes are just for her and buses. :lol:

Although in fairness there is some talk of contesting this.
They are now saying it's probably illegal to make a trunk road Oxford Rd (A34) car free.

Why has somebody said it is the government? This is Local Authority business, not Central Government.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by tim_noone » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:30 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Thanks for the replies. This is in London, local to my house. As I illustrated to the council I was turning left to get onto my street, but they've firmly rejected every explanation letter. If I do go ahead and fight it, I'll let you know how it goes.
Got a fine on the main drag in Edgware entering the McDonalds just beyond the bus lane you automatically drift left on the approach.they sent me the photo evidence on request. I bet they've made upwards of a million pound there. Won't enter London now by car to many enforcement laws. Jct.4 M1 for me now.Theres one approaching saltaire from Bingley and cars myself included enter it....without penalty. Maybe it's only a matter of time if there's money to be made !!

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:39 pm

Foulthrow wrote:Father-in-law got done recently. He went into the bus lane to make way for an ambulance. Appealed. Rejected. Had to pay.
This is a weird one. A guy a year or two ago a guy had to fight tooth and nail to get one revoked when he went through a red light to make way for a police car on an emergency. He eventually famously won though. Did your father-in-law fight it enough? If this is the case then is it now legal by default to say 'f**k you' to an emergency vehicle if it means giving way gets you a fine? I'm sure the police, fire and ambulance services don't want their jobs made harder by people adhering to petty local government by laws.

houseboy
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:got caught in blackburn and had no idea i was doing anything wrong, somewhere near ewood just heading towards the town centre, Bolton road.
If you want a really daft one in Blackburn try the railway station. In front of that cars have to actually pull off the road and re-enter it further on and on the other side pull off and go down a bloody back street. The problem here is that it looks as though as it has actually been designed to confuse because it is a totally unnatural manoeuver. Blackburn's roads are as ridiculous as their football team.
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tim_noone
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by tim_noone » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:54 pm

houseboy wrote:This is a weird one. A guy a year or two ago a guy had to fight tooth and nail to get one revoked when he went through a red light to make way for a police car on an emergency. He eventually famously won though. Did your father-in-law fight it enough? If this is the case then is it now legal by default to say 'f**k you' to an emergency vehicle if it means giving way gets you a fine? I'm sure the police, fire and ambulance services don't want their jobs made harder by people adhering to petty local government by laws.
The Bus Lanes in London have been making Money for years now along with parking tickets.some boroughs have recently changed the Lay out for people entering the normal quicker route to their homes forcing a detour to enter the street from another direction. Possibly similar to what's now happening to JB the opening post.

dsr
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by dsr » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:55 pm

houseboy wrote:This is a weird one. A guy a year or two ago a guy had to fight tooth and nail to get one revoked when he went through a red light to make way for a police car on an emergency. He eventually famously won though. Did your father-in-law fight it enough? If this is the case then is it now legal by default to say 'f**k you' to an emergency vehicle if it means giving way gets you a fine? I'm sure the police, fire and ambulance services don't want their jobs made harder by people adhering to petty local government by laws.
I think the point is that a policeman in uniform can give you authority to break traffic rules, and if he is behind you flashing his light then he's telling you to get out of the way in any way that's safe. The policeman's blue light is your valid excuse for breaking the regulations.

An ambulanceman or a fireman don't have that authority, so the local councils can continue making all the money they possibly can from people making way for ambulances and fire engines. Though it says a lot about their priorities when they think that getting money into council coffers is more important than getting ambulances and fire engines to where they are needed. How many of us, given the chance of making £60 but stopping an ambulance getting to a sick person, would prefer to have the money? None, I hope. Apart from the councillors among us.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Foulthrow » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 pm

houseboy wrote:This is a weird one. A guy a year or two ago a guy had to fight tooth and nail to get one revoked when he went through a red light to make way for a police car on an emergency. He eventually famously won though. Did your father-in-law fight it enough? If this is the case then is it now legal by default to say 'f**k you' to an emergency vehicle if it means giving way gets you a fine? I'm sure the police, fire and ambulance services don't want their jobs made harder by people adhering to petty local government by laws.
I don’t think he fought it, he appealed but accepted the outcome. But, I agree, can’t be good from a safety point of view.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Fretters » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:27 pm

houseboy wrote:If you want a really daft one in Blackburn try the railway station. In front of that cars have to actually pull off the road and re-enter it further on and on the other side pull off and go down a bloody back street. The problem here is that it looks as though as it has actually been designed to confuse because it is a totally unnatural manoeuver. Blackburn's roads are as ridiculous as their football team.
I'm with you on this one, it's stupid. Last time, I caused a hold up thinking, 'surely this can't be right' as I didn't want to get stung again.
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:47 pm

dsr wrote:I think the point is that a policeman in uniform can give you authority to break traffic rules, and if he is behind you flashing his light then he's telling you to get out of the way in any way that's safe. The policeman's blue light is your valid excuse for breaking the regulations.

An ambulanceman or a fireman don't have that authority, so the local councils can continue making all the money they possibly can from people making way for ambulances and fire engines. Though it says a lot about their priorities when they think that getting money into council coffers is more important than getting ambulances and fire engines to where they are needed. How many of us, given the chance of making £60 but stopping an ambulance getting to a sick person, would prefer to have the money? None, I hope. Apart from the councillors among us.
And theoretically an ambulance or fire engine could be more important than a police car in that they may be going to save a life whereas that is probably mostly unlikely with a police car (although not definitely). Wrong priorities methinks.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by houseboy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:57 pm

Fretters wrote:I'm with you on this one, it's stupid. Last time, I caused a hold up thinking, 'surely this can't be right' as I didn't want to get stung again.
I've driven down that way many times (usually going down the back street) but either way it just doesn't feel right to do that manoeuvre. The really odd thing is more cars than buses go past that way so shouldn't the buses take the 'odd' route?

AndrewJB
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by AndrewJB » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:13 pm

Foulthrow wrote:I don’t think he fought it, he appealed but accepted the outcome. But, I agree, can’t be good from a safety point of view.
In my borough - Newham - they used to be more fair, or at least more pragmatically sympathetic when it came to challenged tickets, but now they seem to reject all challenges out of hand, and this forces you to go to the tribunal panel. Most people I know won't take it so far, with the cost of the ticket effectively doubling and the potential of having to pay costs if you lose. What the internet suggests however (links such as the one in the original post) is that councils can't always find someone to represent them at tribunals (which means you win by default), and that tribunals - being independent and not motivated by the ticket revenue as councils are - tend to have more sympathy for the pragmatism shown by drivers in infringing the rule. So perhaps your father (in law?) would have been let off for moving into a bus lane in order to let an ambulance by had he taken it to tribunal?

For me, and I still have a number of days yet to pay the reduced fine so don't need to make a decision right away, I would be counting on the "common sense" of the panel in the tribunal to see my actions in a positive light. If I go that route I'll post how it goes.
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Foulthrow » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:06 pm

Good luck.

South West Claret.
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by South West Claret. » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:10 pm

South West Claret. wrote:Sorry lads but guilty as charged and if you do want to complain then send it to the Government as they make the laws.
Well I trust that you have payed up then Andrew?

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by tim_noone » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:51 pm

AndrewJB wrote:In my borough - Newham - they used to be more fair, or at least more pragmatically sympathetic when it came to challenged tickets, but now they seem to reject all challenges out of hand, and this forces you to go to the tribunal panel. Most people I know won't take it so far, with the cost of the ticket effectively doubling and the potential of having to pay costs if you lose. What the internet suggests however (links such as the one in the original post) is that councils can't always find someone to represent them at tribunals (which means you win by default), and that tribunals - being independent and not motivated by the ticket revenue as councils are - tend to have more sympathy for the pragmatism shown by drivers in infringing the rule. So perhaps your father (in law?) would have been let off for moving into a bus lane in order to let an ambulance by had he taken it to tribunal?

For me, and I still have a number of days yet to pay the reduced fine so don't need to make a decision right away, I would be counting on the "common sense" of the panel in the tribunal to see my actions in a positive light. If I go that route I'll post how it goes.
"In my Borough Newham" They Used to be Fair....you could also park on the streets and not be troubled by wardens near the fire station and swimming baths.its all changed since the Olympic stadium arrived.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by dsr » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:16 am

There must be doubts about the legality of the rule saying that if you take this case to trial, we will double the fine. You surely can't charge people for access to justice. I would like to see a civil libertarian with deep pockets challenge this one on principle.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by Herts Clarets » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:29 am

dsr wrote:There must be doubts about the legality of the rule saying that if you take this case to trial, we will double the fine. You surely can't charge people for access to justice. I would like to see a civil libertarian with deep pockets challenge this one on principle.
If you pay within a set number of days then the fine is reduced by 50%. Beyond that and you are liable for the fine in full so they don't double it, just remove the discount. If you appeal and lose you are still eligible for the reduced fine, however if you then decide to proceed to a tribunal and are unsuccessful then the fine is payable in full.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by South West Claret. » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:14 am

Herts Clarets wrote:If you pay within a set number of days then the fine is reduced by 50%. Beyond that and you are liable for the fine in full so they don't double it, just remove the discount. If you appeal and lose you are still eligible for the reduced fine, however if you then decide to proceed to a tribunal and are unsuccessful then the fine is payable in full.
They should double the fine and charge him extra for wasting peoples time.
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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by dsr » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:14 am

Herts Clarets wrote:If you pay within a set number of days then the fine is reduced by 50%. Beyond that and you are liable for the fine in full so they don't double it, just remove the discount. If you appeal and lose you are still eligible for the reduced fine, however if you then decide to proceed to a tribunal and are unsuccessful then the fine is payable in full.
If you say that black is white, that doesn't mean that legally black is white. What happens is that they double the penalty if you go to appeal. The form of words they use doesn't change that fact.

If the "discount" is for prompt settlement, then it should be available for settling promptly once the liability is fully established in law. It should not be used as a threat to circumvent the legal process.

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Re: Bus Lane Tickets

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:28 am

dsr wrote:If you say that black is white, that doesn't mean that legally black is white. What happens is that they double the penalty if you go to appeal. The form of words they use doesn't change that fact.

If the "discount" is for prompt settlement, then it should be available for settling promptly once the liability is fully established in law. It should not be used as a threat to circumvent the legal process.
Herts is right in terms of the specifics of it, but I agree with you that it's set up to materially discourage challenges (and that isn't good).

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