Boris

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:31 am

aggi wrote:I imagine that we'd see an extension if that happened.

Only if the Prime Minister requests it. What happens if the PM has resigned?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:58 am

dsr wrote:Only if the Prime Minister requests it. What happens if the PM has resigned?

The House will instruct his deputy to request it.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:35 pm

martin_p wrote:The House will instruct his deputy to request it.

So far as I know, only the PM can request an extension. And anyway, if the PM has resigned, then the government will surely have resigned with him, and there won't be a PM. The next PM will not be appointed until either it becomes clear that someone else can command support of half the House (even if only for a short while) or else there is a general election.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:52 pm

dsr wrote:So far as I know, only the PM can request an extension. And anyway, if the PM has resigned, then the government will surely have resigned with him, and there won't be a PM. The next PM will not be appointed until either it becomes clear that someone else can command support of half the House (even if only for a short while) or else there is a general election.

I imagine that, given the majority of the house don't want No Deal, they could get behind someone for one motion requesting an extension.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote: What remainers? What mistakes?

You're ******* deluded. He's backing it with brexiteers because he's a brexiteer. The brexit secretaries have all been brexiteers. So how the **** have you reached the conclusion that Remainers hare to blame for this mess?

Utterly ******* desperate and delusional. It's always got to be someone elses fault. You people can't accept any responsibility for your own ****-ups

Just seen this reply to me yesterday. I thought that having a uniquely diverse top team would have pleased you but it seems Boris has more to do......

I’ll have to be brief - I’m about to fly back to that parallel universe where the previous PM did not vote Remain, the previous Chancellor did not vote Remain, the previous lead Brexit negotiator did not vote Remain, and the Brexit voting DEXEU secretaries didn’t have all power removed from their office by the PM - thus the place where only Brexiteers can be to blame for where we are.

As for my point about catastrophic errors of judgement by Remainer MPs (probably Boris’s view) - you have said many times that Brexiteers have made such an error of judgement, why would it be wrong for Brexiteers to feel the same way about Remain voting MPs? Perfectly credible for him to leave them out on that basis.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:03 pm

aggi wrote:I imagine that, given the majority of the house don't want No Deal, they could get behind someone for one motion requesting an extension.

It's a possibility. A very grand coalition of Labour, Liberal, SNP, Change UK, Green, Plaid Cymru, Independents, and disaffected Tories - could they find someone to be PM that they would all support, even short term? Maybe. The general election would follow immediately, though, because that coalition wouldn't last.

What if the EU wouldn't grant an extension?

(I suspect they would. They don't want a no deal Brexit either. They're £39bn and a lot of free trade down, at least in the short term, if that happens.)

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:04 pm

If I as a remainer were looking at sneaky little things to stop Brexit from happening (prorouging parliament, running time limits down, leaving the country leaderless so it can happen) then I can only imagine the names I’d be called.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:07 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If I as a remainer were looking at sneaky little things to stop Brexit from happening (prorouging parliament, running time limits down, leaving the country leaderless so it can happen) then I can only imagine the names I’d be called.

You'd be called "someone who is trying to overturn the referendum result". Not something that the Brexiters can be called. (Not reasonably, anyway.)

"Leaving the country leaderless" can only be done by Remainers. There's no rational way Johnson can do that; it would have to be his opponents who forced him out. He won't be resigning unless he loses a vote of confidence. (A vote to delay Brexit would almost certainly be taken as a vote of confidence).

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:09 pm

dsr wrote:You'd be called "someone who is trying to overturn the referendum result". Not something that the Brexiters can be called. (Not reasonably, anyway.)

"Leaving the country leaderless" can only be done by Remainers. There's no rational way Johnson can do that; it would have to be his opponents who forced him out. He won't be resigning unless he loses a vote of confidence. (A vote to delay Brexit would almost certainly be taken as a vote of confidence).

If we overturned the referendum result by conducting a full referendum and showed that the will of the people is that we reverse the first referendum result, why would that not satisfy you?

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:16 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote: Just seen this reply to me yesterday. I thought that having a uniquely diverse top team would have pleased you but it seems Boris has more to do......

I’ll have to be brief - I’m about to fly back to that parallel universe where the previous PM did not vote Remain, the previous Chancellor did not vote Remain, the previous lead Brexit negotiator did not vote Remain, and the Brexit voting DEXEU secretaries didn’t have all power removed from their office by the PM - thus the place where only Brexiteers can be to blame for where we are.

As for my point about catastrophic errors of judgement by Remainer MPs (probably Boris’s view) - you have said many times that Brexiteers have made such an error of judgement, why would it be wrong for Brexiteers to feel the same way about Remain voting MPs? Perfectly credible for him to leave them out on that basis.

Theresa May’s red lines were to appease her Brexiteers, and led directly to her getting a bad deal. Her foreign Sec, international trade, Brexit ministers, and more - all leavers.

Should be interesting to see how you apportion blame this next time, with the cabinet he’s got.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:19 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:If we overturned the referendum result by conducting a full referendum and showed that the will of the people is that we reverse the first referendum result, why would that not satisfy you?

At the very least, it would have to be best of three.

I don't think the government ought to have the right to refuse to enact the result of a referendum. Let the government enact the result, and then we can consider a second vote.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:22 pm

dsr wrote:At the very least, it would have to be best of three.

I don't think the government ought to have the right to refuse to enact the result of a referendum. Let the government enact the result, and then we can consider a second vote.

No one, not a single person, is pretending that if Remain won a second referendum that it would be the end of the debate. So shut the **** up about "best of three" bullshit and answer the question.

Explain to me why it is democratic for the public to decide to leave the EU, but not democratic for that same public to decide not to implement the result of the first referendum.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:31 pm

dsr wrote:It's a possibility. A very grand coalition of Labour, Liberal, SNP, Change UK, Green, Plaid Cymru, Independents, and disaffected Tories - could they find someone to be PM that they would all support, even short term? Maybe. The general election would follow immediately, though, because that coalition wouldn't last.

What if the EU wouldn't grant an extension? (I suspect they would. They don't want a no deal Brexit either. They're £39bn and a lot of free trade down, at least in the short term, if that happens.)

I could see it with the agreement that it would basically be only for that purpose. I don't think we have any true independent MPs, they've either been booted from or chosen to leave a major party, which would have been my favourite for the role.

I imagine they'd agree but we get weaker and weaker each time these things happen.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:33 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:No one, not a single person, is pretending that if Remain won a second referendum that it would be the end of the debate. So shut the **** up about "best of three" bullshit and answer the question.

Explain to me why it is democratic for the public to decide to leave the EU, but not democratic for that same public to decide not to implement the result of the first referendum.

How many wins for leave would it take for you to accept the result?
Nothing in the last 3 years has indicated that you would accept it, all you do is keep moving the goalposts as to why we apparently need another referendum.

Initially it was because of lies, then people didn't know what they voted for, now it's because people didn't vote for no deal.

You aren't interested in accepting a leave from the EU vote because it isn't what you want.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:34 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If I as a remainer were looking at sneaky little things to stop Brexit from happening (prorouging parliament, running time limits down, leaving the country leaderless so it can happen) then I can only imagine the names I’d be called.

Conveniently you don't have to imagine:

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:43 pm

Burnley Ace wrote:Priti Patel sacked for being dishonest in her explanation of secret meetings with the Israeli Government is Home Secretary!! WTF is that?

Exactly Boris’s type of person, I would suggest...

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:44 pm

aggi wrote:Conveniently you don't have to imagine:

Except all they were saying was that the Prime Minister doesn't have dictatorial powers when it comes to EU membership (or anything, really)

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:45 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:How many wins for leave would it take for you to accept the result?
Nothing in the last 3 years has indicated that you would accept it, all you do is keep moving the goalposts as to why we apparently need another referendum.

Initially it was because of lies, then people didn't know what they voted for, now it's because people didn't vote for no deal.

You aren't interested in accepting a leave from the EU vote because it isn't what you want.

What is all this about ‘accepting brexit’. Why should I accept something that I fundamentally disagree with? If it happens if happens, but the democracy that Brexiteers keep banging on about allows me or anyone else to disagree with it. If Brexit happens and the predicted sunlit uplands materialise then I’ll accept I’m wrong, but until then I’ll go on not ‘accepting Brexit’ and hope that it doesn’t happen.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:50 pm

martin_p wrote:What is all this about ‘accepting brexit’. Why should I accept something that I fundamentally disagree with? If it happens if happens, but the democracy that Brexiteers keep banging on about allows me or anyone else to disagree with it. If Brexit happens and the predicted sunlit uplands materialise then I’ll accept I’m wrong, but until then I’ll go on not ‘accepting Brexit’ and hope that it doesn’t happen.

The reason they want you to fall in line is because they think that's what they would do if Remain had won by less than 52-48.

I know. I think that's hilarious too. They really believe that they wouldn't be demanding a second referendum.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:No one, not a single person, is pretending that if Remain won a second referendum that it would be the end of the debate. So shut the **** up about "best of three" bullshit and answer the question.

Explain to me why it is democratic for the public to decide to leave the EU, but not democratic for that same public to decide not to implement the result of the first referendum.

Yes it would.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:07 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Yes it would.

You should tell pre-referendum Nigel Farage that.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:14 pm

Get some sun , you vitamin D lacking, rickets ridden, sore loser Remoaners !

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:16 pm

The level of intellectual debate from Ringo is impressive.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:19 pm

This will take a large chunk out of the budget, building safe spaces for the confused delicate leftist snowflakes currently in meltdown ...confused because of the high profile jobs afforded to second generation imgrunts...not quite fitting the perceived Hair Boris Nazi narrative.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:20 pm

The Facebook feeds of several older relatives were already talking up that “remain had stolen the referendum” on the night of the vote itself, so I don’t doubt it would still be going on.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 pm

morpheus2 wrote:This will take a large chunk out of the budget, building safe spaces for the confused delicate leftist snowflakes currently in meltdown ...confused because of the high profile jobs afforded to second generation imgrunts...not quite fitting the perceived Hair Boris Nazi narrative.

It would really upset us leftists if you punched yourself in the face. A lot. Please don't do that.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:24 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:

Explain to me why it is democratic for the public to decide to leave the EU, but not democratic for that same public to decide not to implement the result of the first referendum.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:25 pm

martin_p wrote:What is all this about ‘accepting brexit’. Why should I accept something that I fundamentally disagree with? If it happens if happens, but the democracy that Brexiteers keep banging on about allows me or anyone else to disagree with it. If Brexit happens and the predicted sunlit uplands materialise then I’ll accept I’m wrong, but until then I’ll go on not ‘accepting Brexit’ and hope that it doesn’t happen.

Democracy allows you to disagree with it, but the attempts to stop it happening at all is what makes it ridiculous.
That's why I stated the goalposts keep being moved as to why we should have another referendum.

morpheus2 · Post by **morpheus2** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:25 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:It would really upset us leftists if you punched yourself in the face. A lot. Please don't do that.

Uwwwwwwwww..... touchy

I love you too xx

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:36 pm

dsr wrote:At the very least, it would have to be best of three.

I don't think the government ought to have the right to refuse to enact the result of a referendum. Let the government enact the result, and then we can consider a second vote.

What if 'the people' no longer want the 2016 result to be enacted? Are you telling them it's tough? That they should be held hostage to something they might have felt over 3 years ago?

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:37 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The level of intellectual debate from Ringo is impressive.

He has a point though it's a beautiful day and your sat in your box room with the curtains shut...steve1956 reporting from his deck chair in the garden in sunny Fife.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:39 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:What if 'the people' no longer want the 2016 result to be enacted? Are you telling them it's tough? That they should be held hostage to something they might have felt over 3 years ago?

Turtle has suggested that the people want to have another vote, I'm waiting for the nationwide poll that would indicate this.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:40 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Turtle has suggested that the people want to have another vote, I'm waiting for the nationwide poll that would indicate this.

Like the nationwide poll in 2015 that indicated the public wanted a vote in the first place?

The minute it became clear that the Brexit promised by Leave could not be delivered, there was a perfectly valid reason to hold another vote.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:43 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Like the nationwide poll in 2015 that indicated the public wanted a vote in the first place?

Yup, if there is a recent poll suggesting the country wants another referendum about Brexit then great, let's go.
If it's an opinion and nothing else then no thanks to another vote.

Issue is we'd need to get it done before the leave date...

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:44 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:Like the nationwide poll in 2015 that indicated the public wanted a vote in the first place?

The minute it became clear that the Brexit promised by Leave could not be delivered, there was a perfectly valid reason to hold another vote.

The options were leave or remain.

The finer details were for the politicians to sort out and No Deal should've always been an option, because entering negotiations with a hand tied behind their back was stupid.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:23 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Yup, if there is a recent poll suggesting the country wants another referendum about Brexit then great, let's go.
If it's an opinion and nothing else then no thanks to another vote.

Issue is we'd need to get it done before the leave date...

His point was that there was no nationwide poll in 2015 about having an EU referendum.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:27 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:The options were leave or remain.

The finer details were for the politicians to sort out and No Deal should've always been an option, because entering negotiations with a hand tied behind their back was stupid.

Not as stupid as entering negotiations that we have significant reason to believe the public doesn't want us to be having at all.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:His point was that there was no nationwide poll in 2015 about having an EU referendum.

Government manifesto.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:51 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Not as stupid as entering negotiations that we have significant reason to believe the public doesn't want us to be having at all.

We entered negotiations with a referendum result stating that the majority of people who voted wanted to leave.

Not sure what your point is now, because we entered negotiations ages ago when the public wanted the government to do it.

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:56 pm

There is little real political debate amongst the masses anymore. After the wall came down we were convinced by the media that the socialist experiment had failed, and that was that. Political debate was over. All parties were perceived to be basically the same. There are only a few left wing newspapers left and union membership is seen as an insurance policy by many. The expenses scandal led people to think that all politicians were the same, nose in the trough shysters. In the vacuum that has followed the cult of personality has taken over. Hence, ‘ man of the people’ Farage with his pint and ‘political correctness gone mad’ mantra. Boris is in power, not because he is a great politician but because the Tories think the voting population will go for ‘ a character, a personality ‘ They know that the papers will persuade people to go for it, in a Love Island, Strictly sort of way. Real politicians are too boring for the populace now, we want entertainment. There is a blind passionate optimism that everything will be alright. I suppose it will for many with a bit of cash behind them. I’m not sure about everybody else.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:05 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Government manifesto.

But you think that anything that isn't on the ballot doesn't matter. Or have you changed your mind about that?

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:But you think that anything that isn't on the ballot doesn't matter. Or have you changed your mind about that?

Have I said that?

For the referendum it was leave or remain.
Not hard/soft brexit, no deal brexit etc.

If a government pledges to hold a referendum in their manifesto that's a different situation.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:39 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Have I said that?

For the referendum it was leave or remain.
Not hard/soft brexit, no deal brexit etc.

If a government pledges to hold a referendum in their manifesto that's a different situation.

I completely agree with you that how a campaign wins matters. Which is why i oppose a no deal Brexit, because that wasn't what was campaigned for.

But the reason i support a second referendum is because of all the evidence that shows that the public has changed its mind. And the only way to find out if all that evidence is accurate or not is to have a second referendum (which, by the way, would probably make sense anyway when enacting such a massive decision based on a tiny majority of public opinion but even more so when there's such massive amounts of evidence that says we no longer want this).

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I completely agree with you that how a campaign wins matters. Which is why i oppose a no deal Brexit, because that wasn't what was campaigned for.

But the reason i support a second referendum is because of all the evidence that shows that the public has changed its mind. And the only way to find out if all that evidence is accurate or not is to have a second referendum (which, by the way, would probably make sense anyway when enacting such a massive decision based on a tiny majority of public opinion but even more so when there's such massive amounts of evidence that says we no longer want this).

So if a second referendum was still saying leave would you finally shut up?
Nope, you'd want another just to make sure.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:18 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So if a second referendum was still saying leave would you finally shut up?
Nope, you'd want another just to make sure.

I'd no longer think we've changed out mind. And since the only reason, the ONLY reason, i'm saying we should have a second referendum is because i think we've changed our mind then naturally i'd stop making that argument.

I opposed a second referendum for a long time after the first one. Have you forgotten that?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:52 pm

The political landscape is looking mighty fine right about now

: 67113909_2332978143448612_7499324142211039232_n.jpg (74.54 KiB) Viewed 2210 times

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:01 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:The political landscape is looking mighty fine right about now

67113909_2332978143448612_7499324142211039232_n.jpg

I thought you people said you could meme?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I thought you people said you could meme?

what do you mean... you people?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:05 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:what do you mean... you people?

Edgelords

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Edgelords

Edgelords! that's one I haven't heard for a while.

Takes me back to the /b/ era of 2009-10