Boris

[martin_p]

Crosspool, why is it worth wrecking the economy? That's what I can never get an answer on. What will we gain in return for the wrecking of the economy? It must be something very valuable that will benefit the lives of all of us. Please tell me what it is.

This won’t get a meaningful answer.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Crosspool, one thing I am curious about is whether you really believe that we can leave the EU AND strengthen the Union, as Boris seemed to imply?

We probably could if the Scots weren't so intent on throwing themselves onto the alter of the EU.

[Imploding Turtle]

We probably could if the Scots weren't so intent on throwing themselves onto the alter of the EU.

If only the other nations in our union stopped caring about their own interests, we could have a much stronger union.

[Imploding Turtle]

This won’t get a meaningful answer.

James O'Brien's been asking it on his show for three years and to my knowledge has yet to receive an answer. Along the lines of "Tell me one think you can do after Brexit that you can't do now."

[GodIsADeeJay81]

If only the other nations in our union stopped caring about their own interests, we could have a much stronger union.

We would have a stronger union if we didn't have such weak self centered governments from both parties, but there we go and here we are.

Like I said though, Scotland will want to be in the EU, the SNP wants to take Scotland out of the Union, it's their primary aim and Brexit gives them the perfect excuse to do it.
The perfect storm so to speak.

[Imploding Turtle]

We would have a stronger union if we didn't have such weak self centered governments from both parties, but there we go and here we are.

Like I said though, Scotland will want to be in the EU, the SNP wants to take Scotland out of the Union, it's their primary aim and Brexit gives them the perfect excuse to do it.
The perfect storm so to speak.

It's not just an excuse, it was a campaign promise to hold a referendum if Scotland are being taken out of the EU against its will. What you're complaining about is literally a political party keeping a campaign promise.

[Imploding Turtle]

Quick purely hypothetical question. If a senior aide to Boris had sent a speech he was planning to give on energy policy to officials for a rich, oil exporting country for edits. How corrupt would that be?

[bfccrazy]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/29/boris-sp ... 4mweuMadNk

So, £100,000,000 (100 million) is being spent on something that he said he would do whether people liked it or not ....... bit of a waste of money ain’t it?

[Imploding Turtle]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/29/boris-sp ... 4mweuMadNk

So, £100,000,000 (100 million) is being spent on something that he said he would do whether people liked it or not ....... bit of a waste of money ain’t it?

Kerching for advertisers. This should keep some of the media sweet.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's not just an excuse, it was a campaign promise to hold a referendum if Scotland are being taken out of the EU against its will. What you're complaining about is literally a political party keeping a campaign promise.

Yes their manifesto stated they'd hold another referendum if required, including but not limited to the UK leaving the EU.
Like I said, they've been looking for another reason to leave and the UK handed it to them on a plate.
That's their choice and if they go then good luck to them, however if they don't then the SNP will just wait a few more years and find another reason to try again.

[Colburn_Claret]

Crosspool, why is it worth wrecking the economy? That's what I can never get an answer on. What will we gain in return for the wrecking of the economy? It must be something very valuable that will benefit the lives of all of us. Please tell me what it is.

Sovereignty is very valuable, and in the long run will benefit us all.

[Spijed]

Sovereignty is very valuable, and in the long run will benefit us all.

An example?

[Colburn_Claret]

https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/29/boris-sp ... 4mweuMadNk

So, £100,000,000 (100 million) is being spent on something that he said he would do whether people liked it or not ....... bit of a waste of money ain’t it?

Not if it opens peoples minds to the opportunities available, and the realities of what no deal will mean to the country.
A bigger waste was the same money telling us how bad leaving would be, yet they still lost.

[martin_p]

Sovereignty is very valuable, and in the long run will benefit us all.

Told you, absolutely meaningless.

[Colburn_Claret]

Yes their manifesto stated they'd hold another referendum if required, including but not limited to the UK leaving the EU.
Like I said, they've been looking for another reason to leave and the UK handed it to them on a plate.
That's their choice and if they go then good luck to them, however if they don't then the SNP will just wait a few more years and find another reason to try again.

They could always hold another referendum if it snows in January

[Imploding Turtle]

Yes their manifesto stated they'd hold another referendum if required, including but not limited to the UK leaving the EU against Scotland's will.
Like I said, they've been looking for another reason to leave and the UK handed it to them on a plate.
That's their choice and if they go then good luck to them, however if they don't then the SNP will just wait a few more years and find another reason to try again.

I've added the important part you seem to have "accidentally" missed out.

[dsr]

How can we take back control of our borders if we have an open border with the EU in Northern Ireland?

Three plus years since the vote, and so many people still don't understand what it's about.

"Taking control of the borders" does not mean, and never did mean, stopping people getting into and out of the country - neither by the absurd suggestion of a Trump Wall in Ireland, nor by the more subtle suggestion of visas for all visitors. It was about having the power to stop unfettered immigration from the EU, and having control over immigration from the EU in the same way as we have control over immigration from the rest of the world. Not a single soul extra or fewer will be prevented from coming into the UK. It's possible, depending on government policy, that not a single soul will be prevented from working here. But the decision will be in the UK's hands, not the EU's.

Whatever the rules on trade barriers, there is so far as I know no reason why we can't continue with the free movement of people between RoI and the UK as we have done before partition, before the EEC, and before the EU. That's a decision for the UK to make. Of course we won't have any influence over the Irish side of the border; they may want to build their wall and impose travel restrictions of their own.

[Colburn_Claret]

Told you, absolutely meaningless.

Meaningless to you.
Millions of people died in the war, for what, meaningless......
If they knew how little their sacrifice would be appreciated.

If we leave and those left behind get even closer ties. Their European army. The control of each countries fiscal policies. Then the realities of why we needed to leave will become obvious. You cant see the issues and problems being in the EU will inevitably lead to, because you cant see past November 1st.
It isnt my, or any of the other Brexiteers fault, that you lack vision.

[nil_desperandum]

Sovereignty is very valuable, and in the long run will benefit us all.

Briefly, what do you understand by the term "sovereignty" and what will we be getting back that makes any meaningful difference to you personally and the country in general?

[nil_desperandum]

Three plus years since the vote, and so many people still don't understand what it's about.

"Taking control of the borders" does not mean, and never did mean, stopping people getting into and out of the country - neither by the absurd suggestion of a Trump Wall in Ireland, nor by the more subtle suggestion of visas for all visitors. It was about having the power to stop unfettered immigration from the EU, and having control over immigration from the EU in the same way as we have control over immigration from the rest of the world. Not a single soul extra or fewer will be prevented from coming into the UK. It's possible, depending on government policy, that not a single soul will be prevented from working here. But the decision will be in the UK's hands, not the EU's.

Whatever the rules on trade barriers, there is so far as I know no reason why we can't continue with the free movement of people between RoI and the UK as we have done before partition, before the EEC, and before the EU. That's a decision for the UK to make. Of course we won't have any influence over the Irish side of the border; they may want to build their wall and impose travel restrictions of their own.

I've asked this loads of times, and I'm in the minority in having raised the issue of the Irish border in the run-up to the referendum:
If there's no border what is there in place to stop EU citizens legally flying into Dublin and simply walking over the border and working on building sites or in bars in Belfast. And then indeed to travel across the Irish Sea and do something similar in Liverpool?
Ringo seems to think that brexit will lead to a reduction in people trafficking. I hope he's right, but in my view there'll be a massive escalation of illegal activity at the border and international organised crime will become an even bigger business / challenge than it is now. This is why ultimately the issue of the border and upholding the Belfast Agreement has become such an issue.

[dsr]

I've asked this loads of times, and I'm in the minority in having raised the issue of the Irish border in the run-up to the referendum:
If there's no border what is there in place to stop EU citizens legally flying into Dublin and simply walking over the border and working on building sites or in bars in Belfast. And then indeed to travel across the Irish Sea and do something similar in Liverpool?
Ringo seems to think that brexit will lead to a reduction in people trafficking. I hope he's right, but in my view there'll be a massive escalation of illegal activity at the border and international organised crime will become an even bigger business / challenge than it is now. This is why ultimately the issue of the border and upholding the Belfast Agreement has become such an issue.

Where does the illegal immigrant get his national insurance number?

This border is not designed to stop any EU citizen from entering the country. What would happen to the tourism industry if it was? It wouldn't matter if a Berlin Wall was built in Ireland; because the safeguards to stop illegal labour by someone who has flown in to Manchester would be the same as the safeguards for someone who has walked from Clones.

[martin_p]

Meaningless to you.
Millions of people died in the war, for what, meaningless......
If they knew how little their sacrifice would be appreciated.

If we leave and those left behind get even closer ties. Their European army. The control of each countries fiscal policies. Then the realities of why we needed to leave will become obvious. You cant see the issues and problems being in the EU will inevitably lead to, because you cant see past November 1st.
It isnt my, or any of the other Brexiteers fault, that you lack vision.

You’re right, I’m not a fantasist.

[aggi]

Meaningless to you.
Millions of people died in the war, for what, meaningless......
If they knew how little their sacrifice would be appreciated.

If we leave and those left behind get even closer ties. Their European army. The control of each countries fiscal policies. Then the realities of why we needed to leave will become obvious. You cant see the issues and problems being in the EU will inevitably lead to, because you cant see past November 1st.
It isnt my, or any of the other Brexiteers fault, that you lack vision.

You can't get much lower than invoking the sacrifice of dead war veterans for your personal crusade. The last desperate play of someone with no real argument.

Here's what one actual war veteran had to say
https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/06/d-day-ve ... e-9840041/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nil_desperandum]

Where does the illegal immigrant get his national insurance number?

This border is not designed to stop any EU citizen from entering the country. What would happen to the tourism industry if it was? It wouldn't matter if a Berlin Wall was built in Ireland; because the safeguards to stop illegal labour by someone who has flown in to Manchester would be the same as the safeguards for someone who has walked from Clones.

I anticipated that you would say that. The problem is that a significant proportion of those who voted leave are expecting to see closed borders. This has never been credible. The whole "ability to control our borders" myth was blown out of proportion by the likes of Farage. There are already a large number of people in the UK who operate without an NI number, and we apparently can't keep track of the situation. How will this change after brexit? We'll simply have more people living and working illegally, and then some of the people that we would really like to see here will be deterred from coming. Indeed, quite a lot have already left.

[aggi]

The tweet I referenced above is from the Germany correspondent to the Wall Street Journal. It is well worth a read. He suggests that as Germany heads towards recession their budget will be badly affected if Boris refused to pay the £39bn (the chunk of it we haven’t already paid) and it will make a dire situation worse.

Is it just me that has a parody account (not a comment aimed at Aggi) or him too?

https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/11558 ... 96416?s=21

It will certainly have an impact on their economies but the impact on ours will be far greater (as the journalist says "But in any event, it's a lose-lose situation that will hugely test both sides, no matter that the EU is vastly stronger in this fight.").

I would suspect that the EU would pull back on its spending if we didn't pay the £39bn which would give them a bit of breathing room. It just kicks the can down the road though to the point where we're discussing a trade agreement with the EU and although some of their economies will be in difficulty ours will be screwed. Do you really think we'll have the upper hand in that negotiation?

[nil_desperandum]

I would suspect that the EU would pull back on its spending if we didn't pay the £39bn which would give them a bit of breathing room. It just kicks the can down the road though to the point where we're discussing a trade agreement with the EU and although some of their economies will be in difficulty ours will be screwed. Do you really think we'll have the upper hand in that negotiation?

Additionally one assumes that once we're out, the EU won't discuss a new free trade deal until we've put a mechanism in place to pay what we owe them. Essentially they'll have us over a barrel once we leave.

[dsr]

I anticipated that you would say that. The problem is that a significant proportion of those who voted leave are expecting to see closed borders. This has never been credible. The whole "ability to control our borders" myth was blown out of proportion by the likes of Farage. There are already a large number of people in the UK who operate without an NI number, and we apparently can't keep track of the situation. How will this change after brexit? We'll simply have more people living and working illegally, and then some of the people that we would really like to see here will be deterred from coming. Indeed, quite a lot have already left.

But whether or not an immigrant has a national insurance number is a complete red herring. If an EU immigrant gets hold of a bogus NI number (and there are more NI numbers active than there are people, apparently, because they don't deactivate them when the owner dies of moves away) then it makes no difference whether the Irish border is closed, because he can enter at any other border. As it stands now, there will be no new restriction on EU citizens entering this country after Brexit.

A significant proportion of those who voted Remain are expecting closed borders as well. As you say, that was never the intention and it couldn't happen anyway. It's a nonsense and it's a red herring whichever side is raising it. The point of Brexit as regards immigration is that the UK will now have the option of restricting EU workers coming here, and that it may become easier to evict the undesirables (though the difficulties were at least partly of our own making rather than the EU's anyway).

[AndrewJB]

I have to choose which of my 8 replying fans to respond to, so I’ll pick this one

I didn’t miss it out at all. That was my entire point. Yes, it will wreck our economy (temporarily). But, for Brexiteers like Boris and Cummings, it’s worth it (for me too, and I bet most other Brexiteers on here). That is why it could happen, and is why EU leaders should be offering him an olive branch. Nutters in Parliament trying to wreck the whole thing have meant we have no choice.

How easy for the EU if they had said “look, we still have red lines, we have the single market to protect, but we recognise a new government is in place in the U.K. so we will agree to hold a rapid 50 day renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to try to find a compromise that works for both parties”.

Mature statesmanship to have done that. Instead, Varadkar is flushing his economy down the loo.

You should be ashamed of yourself, wishing bad upon our country, and others as well. If you beleve in god, I hope she has mercy on your soul.

[Imploding Turtle]

This is your Champion, Brexiteers.

Who are the snowflakes?

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

It says it all about our present political situation that I have posted a serious piece of investigative journalism and the contributors to this thread are more interested in memes and bickering. You would all do well to read more and write less.

[Imploding Turtle]

Rich people when they get an above-zero tax bill

https://v.redd.it/ktl5xgqcx9d31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It says it all about our present political situation that I have posted a serious piece of investigative journalism and the contributors to this thread are more interested in memes and bickering. You would all do well to read more and write less.

[HieronymousBoschHobs]

Rich people when they get an above-zero tax bill

https://v.redd.it/ktl5xgqcx9d31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My life in a meme-flavoured nutshell.

[AndyClaret]

If only the other nations in our union stopped caring about their own interests, we could have a much stronger union.

I could understand Scotland wanting independence if it wanted out of the EU as well, otherwise it won't be independent.

[evensteadiereddie]

They seem to want the indepence the EU offers more than the one currently offered by Westminster.

[Longsidebogs]

Additionally one assumes that once we're out, the EU won't discuss a new free trade deal until we've put a mechanism in place to pay what we owe them. Essentially they'll have us over a barrel once we leave.

LOL

[Burnley Ace]

Where does the illegal immigrant get his national insurance number?

Really! We don’t enforce the existing laws to stop “unfettered immigration from the EU” and you think we are going to worry about NI numbers? Is this before or after Boris’s amnesty?

[South West Claret.]

"The pound has slumped to a 28-month low as investors reacted with alarm to the escalation of no-deal rhetoric by Boris Johnson's government. Sterling dropped below $1.23 against the US dollar and fell sharply against the euro to below €1.10 on the international currency markets on Monday, as cabinet ministers began meetings to prepare for a no-deal Brexit. But while the pound suffered, there was confusion from Johnson's government about whether a no-deal Brexit is the main working assumption. The prime minister himself insisted there was an "assumption that we can get a new deal" and that he wanted to reach out to European leaders."

As forecast and much as expected by most .. Bunter and his Government are a disaster for this Country.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Meaningless to you.
Millions of people died in the war, for what, meaningless......
If they knew how little their sacrifice would be appreciated.

If we leave and those left behind get even closer ties. Their European army. The control of each countries fiscal policies. Then the realities of why we needed to leave will become obvious. You cant see the issues and problems being in the EU will inevitably lead to, because you cant see past November 1st.
It isnt my, or any of the other Brexiteers fault, that you lack vision.

What war?
Was there a war for Brexit?
Was it 'Nam?
In '69?

[nil_desperandum]

LOL

Rather a waste of a post. If you don't agree then maybe construct a case and present it so that we can debate it? You might have a point.
But let me pose this as a direct question: In what sense will our negotiating position be stronger if we leave without a deal than it is at present? What additional cards will we hold that we don't have now?

[dsr]

Rather a waste of a post. If you don't agree then maybe construct a case and present it so that we can debate it? You might have a point.
But let me pose this as a direct question: In what sense will our negotiating position be stronger if we leave without a deal than it is at present? What additional cards will we hold that we don't have now?

The big additional card would be that the EU would realise that now we are actually serious about leaving without a deal.

Another benefit would be that we would be negotiating as an independent country rather than as a member leaving. Which would make it an awful lot harder for the EU to demand an annual fee for the free trade agreement. I'm sure they never suggested that Canada, for example, should pay billions a year for their mutual free trade deal.

And the Irish backstop will have gone.

[martin_p]

The big additional card would be that the EU would realise that now we are actually serious about leaving without a deal.

Another benefit would be that we would be negotiating as an independent country rather than as a member leaving. Which would make it an awful lot harder for the EU to demand an annual fee for the free trade agreement. I'm sure they never suggested that Canada, for example, should pay billions a year for their mutual free trade deal.

And the Irish backstop will have gone.

The backstop May have gone, but the problem it was there to circumvent won’t have. The EU are still likely to not negotiate until we’ve paid them what they’re owed and there’s a solution for the Irish border. Meanwhile our economy will be tanking and we’ll be desperate for a deal. That’s not a good negotiating position.

[nil_desperandum]

The big additional card would be that the EU would realise that now we are actually serious about leaving without a deal.

Another benefit would be that we would be negotiating as an independent country rather than as a member leaving. Which would make it an awful lot harder for the EU to demand an annual fee for the free trade agreement. I'm sure they never suggested that Canada, for example, should pay billions a year for their mutual free trade deal.

And the Irish backstop will have gone.

I'm sure that's what longsidebogs mean't when he put LOL and some faces. I'm sure he's grateful to you for making his case.
As it happens I disagree with you, but that's fine.
Your first sentence describes a different scenario to the one I was discussing. The scenario I was referring to was having already left with no deal and still owing money to the EU.
Your second sentence correctly describes us as being an independent country once we've left, but I fail to see how owing them money will strengthen our position. It's not usually the case.

[Colburn_Claret]

Briefly, what do you understand by the term "sovereignty" and what will we be getting back that makes any meaningful difference to you personally and the country in general?

The new EU president in her first speech spoke of the European Army, something that most remainers on here argued was a fantasy. She has also stated that in the need to push forward the EU needs to get closer fiscal policies.
The only way to do that is if Brussels starts dictating the fiscal policies of every country, that includes Britain.
Some remainers will lie, and say that we have the opt out option but the reality of that is we are marginalised within the EU, so we might as well leave anyway, or we accept their control, in which case we are screwed.
I've always argued that the real test of the EU will come during the next world recession. If we cant make the decisions to protect our currency, protect our jobs we will be shafted. There are too many dead weights among the 27 members for just a handful of countries to support.
Earlier someone posted a view from a German in the NYT I think, which showed how detrimental a no deal Brexit would be to the German economy it will be a drop in the ocean compared to the problems a world recession would bring.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

You can't get much lower than invoking the sacrifice of dead war veterans for your personal crusade. The last desperate play of someone with no real argument.

Here's what one actual war veteran had to say
https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/06/d-day-ve ... e-9840041/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We fought wars to unite Europe, not destroy it.

That was what the Nazis were trying to do.

We had a name for British people who fought with the Nazis in the war and the Nazi's even had their own division of Brits who fought against the UK, it was called Der Stupider Brexiter Korp.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Meaningless to you.
Millions of people died in the war, for what, meaningless......
If they knew how little their sacrifice would be appreciated.

If we leave and those left behind get even closer ties. Their European army. The control of each countries fiscal policies. Then the realities of why we needed to leave will become obvious. You cant see the issues and problems being in the EU will inevitably lead to, because you cant see past November 1st.
It isnt my, or any of the other Brexiteers fault, that you lack vision.

Ah yes, the vision to hurt your country and others in the name of national sovereignty.

[nil_desperandum]

The new EU president in her first speech spoke of the European Army, something that most remainers on here argued was a fantasy. She has also stated that in the need to push forward the EU needs to get closer fiscal policies.
The only way to do that is if Brussels starts dictating the fiscal policies of every country, that includes Britain.
Some remainers will lie, and say that we have the opt out option but the reality of that is we are marginalised within the EU, so we might as well leave anyway, or we accept their control, in which case we are screwed.
I've always argued that the real test of the EU will come during the next world recession. If we cant make the decisions to protect our currency, protect our jobs we will be shafted. There are too many dead weights among the 27 members for just a handful of countries to support.
Earlier someone posted a view from a German in the NYT I think, which showed how detrimental a no deal Brexit would be to the German economy it will be a drop in the ocean compared to the problems a world recession would bring.

None of that answered my question about sovereignty, but to address what you have written: it's quite clear that we can currently veto an EU Army, (though I'm not entirely sure why it's such a bad thing in any case), and we can veto or opt out of closer fiscal union. We already have our own currency.
Now, if the EU should ever threaten to end our veto, our opt out and / or our rebate, we would still have the option to leave at that point, so your fears are totally without foundation.
It simply isn't the case that we are marginalised in the EU. Along with Germany and France, we've tended have the largest voice over the past couple of decades. We are about to give that up of course, along with the vetoes, the opt outs and the rebate, but on the positive side you'll have the sovereignty of England with a Tory government led by Boris Johnson. What could possibly go wrong for the north and working people?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I've added the important part you seem to have "accidentally" missed out.

Didn't miss anything out, you're just adding stuff in.

I stated that they'd want another referendum if the UK left the EU, you're just being a berk about it.

[Imploding Turtle]

Didn't miss anything out, you're just adding stuff in.

I stated that they'd want another referendum if the UK left the EU, you're just being a berk about it.

The manifesto specifically said "against Scotland's will".

[CrosspoolClarets]

You should be ashamed of yourself, wishing bad upon our country, and others as well. If you beleve in god, I hope she has mercy on your soul.

I don’t.

But anyway, I don’t wish ill on anyone. I want a deal. But not a deal that shackles us. I just think the EU is daft not dashing to the table.

This whole thing is about having freedom to be ourselves, to improve our culture, have our own laws, to have a better balanced economy, to have politicians who have learned to be independant minded not just subservient technocrats.

People above can ask Brexiteers all kinds of rhetorical questions but ultimately, we either think this way or we don’t.

[Spijed]

This whole thing is about having freedom to be ourselves, to improve our culture, have our own laws, to have a better balanced economy, to have politicians who have learned to be independant minded not just subservient technocrats.

But we do have all those things!

For example, I can't ever remember Mark Carney saying "We would like to adjust our interest rates, but we have to seek approval from the EU first".