Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
And yet another Rowls post doesn't quite go as planned. Got himself in a real tizz about this one though
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Not quite sure how you come to that conclusion.Devils_Advocate wrote:And yet another Rowls post doesn't quite go as planned. Got himself in a real tizz about this one though
Do you imagine I post thinking that everyone will post agreements?
In this instance I posted an article which made some very accurate observations. nil_desperandum then posted an interpretation of the article which was so far devolved from what the article actually had to say that I didn't want to leave it unchallenged.
There is, as nil_desperandum states, often space for interpretation of written word so that two people may differ in their interpretation and yet neither of them is "wrong".
I do not think this is one of those cases.
I've posted why I think nil_desperandum is wrong and I've quoted the article extensively.
nil_desperandum doesn't want to post a repost because, ostensibly, it is Sunday. That is his prerogative and I wish him a peaceful observance of the Sabbath.
Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Exactly. There was a case involving a deceased bishop recently where someone claimed to have been abused by this bishop and was able to give a detailed description of the layout of the house and the rooms where it happened.Rowls wrote:When allegations are absurd, ridiculous and implausible from the off and they have no corroborating evidence to back them up, a proper police investigation should be able to dismiss them swiftly. As the Wiltshire Police did.
This was the point the article made.
It took the police years to establish (mainly because they didn't ask) that the house was extensively remodelled later on, and the detailed reconstruction of what happened when the "victim" was 12 was in a place that didn't exist till he was in his twenties. This is the sort of evidence that should be established early and used to avoid causing unfair distress and extravagant waste of money.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
rowls you are a tit.
if you had an ounce of manhood you'd admit you are talking crap.
but you're not that kind of man. you are the worst kind of person; a hypocrite.
if you had an ounce of manhood you'd admit you are talking crap.
but you're not that kind of man. you are the worst kind of person; a hypocrite.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Rowls wrote: What the article does state, which I think is why you have misread it as claiming that Beech was somehow a "credible" witness, is that whilst Beech was never credible, it is one thing to understand that but another to prove it conclusively
Not according to your first quote which says it’s hard to prove things are false even if they seem ridiculous. Incidentally, as the article shows, the Wiltshire police didn’t drop the first case against the two dead men because they’d proved them false, merely that they couldn’t be corroborated. Beech still received over £20,000 pounds compensation from this case which certainly implies his accusations were not dismissed.Rowls wrote: When allegations are absurd, ridiculous and implausible from the off and they have no corroborating evidence to back them up, a proper police investigation should be able to dismiss them swiftly. As the Wiltshire Police did.
This was the point the article made.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Very poor from you that Rowls, and tbh, I would have expected better. I would have been perfectly happy to continue this debate tomorrow but your sarcastic response and lack of respect towards me and my situation is unacceptable.Rowls wrote: nil_desperandum doesn't want to post a repost because, ostensibly, it is Sunday. That is his prerogative and I wish him a peaceful observance of the Sabbath.
Like probably the majority of posters on here I have a family and life outside of this forum. As on most Sundays I had arranged to spend time with family, (in this case my grandchildren) this afternoon. It wasn't an excuse not to engage with you.
Maybe your life is so empty that you don't have loved ones to enjoy time with at the weekend. That's maybe not your fault, but v sad. I've had a lovely afternoon and evening with family, and posting on this forum isn't a high priority for me.
I've tried to keep a balanced view about this affair, whilst you began this thread by making a false claim for which you apologised. I agree with your views on this matter to quite a large extent, but I find your jibes about "observing the Sabbath" to be totally inappropriate, misjudged and unnecessarily confrontational.
I generally enjoy "discussing" topics with you, and if others wish to continue this debate with you then fair enough, but I'll opt out at this point, so feel free to be as sarcastic and offensive about me as you wish.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
The only thing you've written here which is correct is that the distinction between "disproven" and uncorroborated is incidental. Wiltshire police dropped their investigation because it was completely and utterly uncorroborated.martin_p wrote:Not according to your first quote which says it’s hard to prove things are false even if they seem ridiculous. Incidentally, as the article shows, the Wiltshire police didn’t drop the first case against the two dead men because they’d proved them false, merely that they couldn’t be corroborated. Beech still received over £20,000 pounds compensation from this case which certainly implies his accusations were not dismissed.
They had to obtain a much higher standard of proof to push for a prosecution than they did to make the decision to discontinue their initial investigation.
The fact that Beech received compensation is actually neither here nor there. The Wiltshire police will have given Beech a "crime number" as opposed to an "incident number" essentially to fob him off. The award of compensation will been made by CICB with no additional input from Wiltshire police other than access to their files.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Well I'm sorry you feel that way and I did not intend to cause offence.nil_desperandum wrote:Very poor from you that Rowls, and tbh, I would have expected better. I would have been perfectly happy to continue this debate tomorrow but your sarcastic response and lack of respect towards me and my situation is unacceptable.
Like probably the majority of posters on here I have a family and life outside of this forum. As on most Sundays I had arranged to spend time with family, (in this case my grandchildren) this afternoon. It wasn't an excuse not to engage with you.
Maybe your life is so empty that you don't have loved ones to enjoy time with at the weekend. That's maybe not your fault, but v sad. I've had a lovely afternoon and evening with family, and posting on this forum isn't a high priority for me.
I've tried to keep a balanced view about this affair, whilst you began this thread by making a false claim for which you apologised. I agree with your views on this matter to quite a large extent, but I find your jibes about "observing the Sabbath" to be totally inappropriate, misjudged and unnecessarily confrontational.
I generally enjoy "discussing" topics with you, and if others wish to continue this debate with you then fair enough, but I'll opt out at this point, so feel free to be as sarcastic and offensive about me as you wish.
However, you have completely misread the article in question.
All the best, I'm going to give up on this now.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Hi spijed,Spijed wrote:Rowls,
Did you think Cyril Smith was guilty of child abuse?
Sorry for the delay - I wasn't interested in taking the thread off on this tangent.
It's a fair question and the answer is probably not, but it's hypothetical so I couldn't say for sure.Erasmus wrote:Rowls, would you have started this thread if Tom Watson was a Conservative MP?
What I can say with a lot more confidence is that if Tom Watson was a Conservative MP and somebody else started this thread, I wouldn't prevaricate, obfuscate and make excuses like so many Labour supporters on here have done.
Tom Watson isn't the only person who has tarnished his reputation on this matter.
Watson and the Met (specifically the officer who described these ludicrous fantasies as "credible and true") are simply the worst of the offenders. There is also the suggestion that Watson's political pressure could have adversely affected the Met's outrageously bad attempts at an "investigation".
As the article I quoted states, "Other MPs, including John Mann, Simon Danczuk, and the Conservative Zac Goldsmith, were also prominent in promoting Beech’s lies" and -yes- I do believe they should ALL apologise publicly to the victims (by which I mean the innocent men who were threatened with being charged and NOT Tom Watson) of Beech's lies.
I have found the response of the partisan Labour supporters on here to be largely pathetic. The fact that they can't simply accept that Watson made a massive error of judgement and was by far the loudest cheerleader for this criminal fraudster and liar is pathetic.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
I see he has hung his clubs up. 69 and has no longer got enough to compete.
Long, long career.
Long, long career.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
You got it down to a tee, Ian.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
My contribution to this thread has been largely to correct your gross inaccuracies and spinning of the facts, I.e. the use of the word ‘dismiss’ to describe Wiltshire polices response time Beech’s first allegations as if they’d proved them false. They weren’t dismissed, they simply couldn’t take the case any further.Rowls wrote:Hi spijed,
Sorry for the delay - I wasn't interested in taking the thread off on this tangent.
It's a fair question and the answer is probably not, but it's hypothetical so I couldn't say for sure.
What I can say with a lot more confidence is that if Tom Watson was a Conservative MP and somebody else started this thread, I wouldn't prevaricate, obfuscate and make excuses like so many Labour supporters on here have done.
Tom Watson isn't the only person who has tarnished his reputation on this matter.
Watson and the Met (specifically the officer who described these ludicrous fantasies as "credible and true") are simply the worst of the offenders. There is also the suggestion that Watson's political pressure could have adversely affected the Met's outrageously bad attempts at an "investigation".
As the article I quoted states, "Other MPs, including John Mann, Simon Danczuk, and the Conservative Zac Goldsmith, were also prominent in promoting Beech’s lies" and -yes- I do believe they should ALL apologise publicly to the victims (by which I mean the innocent men who were threatened with being charged and NOT Tom Watson) of Beech's lies.
I have found the response of the partisan Labour supporters on here to be largely pathetic. The fact that they can't simply accept that Watson made a massive error of judgement and was by far the loudest cheerleader for this criminal fraudster and liar is pathetic.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
"gross inaccuracies"
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
You are asking the impossible Rowls. Politicians of ALL parties have two things in common - they lie as if they have a degree in it and they never apologise. I never heard one word of apology from Thatcher after she destroyed the industrial and mining infrastructure of this country whilst taking money from the poor to give to the rich. I waited for years but alas that apology has gone with her to the grave.Rowls wrote:This thread is about the public call for Tom Watson to apologize for his involvement in dragging innocent parties into false allegations of paedophilia.
These accusations have had terrible effects on the lives of those who were falsely accused.
Never mind eh?
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
The Police themselves also look like they will have to face more questions:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49160506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49160506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Questions are "asked" when people are killed in custody and nothing happens. This will be no different.
Nobody cares enough, I'm afraid.
Nobody cares enough, I'm afraid.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Douglas Murray eviscerates James O'Brien over his promotion of Carl Beech.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/j ... itch-hunt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/j ... itch-hunt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Only took him several weeks to write an article complaining that O'Brien publicly acknowledged that he had been bullshitted by Beech.
Just seems like a pretty desperate hit piece to me. He even conditions his readers in the most obvious way. No surprise then that you swallowed it up like a cheap whore with a drug habit.
Just seems like a pretty desperate hit piece to me. He even conditions his readers in the most obvious way. No surprise then that you swallowed it up like a cheap whore with a drug habit.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Everything in the Douglas Murray article is true. All of the lies James O’Brien promoted were lies.Imploding Turtle wrote:Just seems like a pretty desperate hit piece to me. He even conditions his readers in the most obvious way. No surprise then that you swallowed it up like a cheap whore with a drug habit.
This article points this out very clearly and demonstrates how keenly O’Brien was taken in by these self-evident lies.
It’s a shame you appear to have a gripe with such honest and factual reporting.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Meanwhile, back in Parliament..............
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Rowls wrote:Everything in the Douglas Murray article is true. All of the lies James O’Brien promoted were lies.
This article points this out very clearly and demonstrates how keenly O’Brien was taken in by these self-evident lies.
It’s a shame you appear to have a gripe with such honest and factual reporting.
That's not reporting, you daft ****. It's an opinion article.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Douglas Murray is usually an eloquent and readable journalist but this article is a slog to read. The reason why? Because he goes out of his way to report vast swathes of carefully transcripted speech from O’Brien.Imploding Turtle wrote:That's not reporting, you daft ****. It's an opinion article.
He will have done this very accurately and very factually. It probably took hours and hours of listening to O’Brien’s shows to get these transcripts.
If he hasn’t reported these quotations accurately then O’Brien will almost certainly sue him. The fact that Murray has reported them in direct quotation form tells you how confident he is here.
You sometimes make half decent observations turtleboy but trying to label this article as an “opinion piece” shows up your bias and ignorance.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
and part 2.AndyClaret wrote:Douglas Murray eviscerates James O'Brien over his promotion of Carl Beech.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/j ... itch-hunt/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/j ... buse-lies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Breaking news
The Home Secretary has ordered an inquiry into the Met's incompetent handling of these false allegations, such is the level of failure here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49915366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Home Secretary has ordered an inquiry into the Met's incompetent handling of these false allegations, such is the level of failure here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49915366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Nice to find a political thread that Rowls is still keen on participated in.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Hopefully the inquiry will also look at those in the media who promoted the allegations.Rowls wrote:Breaking news
The Home Secretary has ordered an inquiry into the Met's incompetent handling of these false allegations, such is the level of failure here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49915366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
AndyClaret wrote:Hopefully the inquiry will also look at those in the media who promoted the allegations.
Can you provide the rest of us with an example of someone in the media who you think should be investigated and punished for what they said or wrote, and perhaps give a brief explanation why you feel what they said means they shouldn't be protected by freedom of speech.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
This stinks of Patel crawling to the Party Hierarchy far more than a desire for lessons to be learned. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, of course, but she seems as slimy and opportunistic as they come.Rowls wrote:Breaking news
The Home Secretary has ordered an inquiry into the Met's incompetent handling of these false allegations, such is the level of failure here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49915366" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
I think the News story and pics around Cliff Richards arrest was "a story too far" IT, don't you?-Even if not directly related to the false allegations from Carl Beech
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
see post 173.Imploding Turtle wrote:Can you provide the rest of us with an example of someone in the media who you think should be investigated and punished for what they said or wrote, and perhaps give a brief explanation why you feel what they said means they shouldn't be protected by freedom of speech.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Not at all Zizkov.ZizkovClaret wrote:This stinks of Patel crawling to the Party Hierarchy far more than a desire for lessons to be learned. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, of course, but she seems as slimy and opportunistic as they come.
This shouldn't be political at all. Tom Watson tried to make it political but it isn't - it just happens to include ex-politicians.
What happened is an utter fantasist made up serious -completely untrue- allegations about prominent people. There were one or two Conservatives but it was exclusively politicians - he named war veterans and other prominent people.
Here is the important thing - his lies were palpably untrue, clearly bullcrap and should have been easily disprovable from the beginning. The Met however, wasted millions of pounds investigating them and n publicly described the lies as "credible and true". It is a shocking piece of police work from start to finish in an investigation that will have been worked on by heaven knows how many police.
Many of them will have smelled the bullcrap long before the investigation collapsed and yet it continued and continued for over two years.
This investigation is warranted and necessary.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
I'd like it to be investigated in non-partisan terms but i can't help thinking it just might put off the MET from investigating the elite in the future, which would be a shame.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
I understand your concern here.ZizkovClaret wrote:I'd like it to be investigated in non-partisan terms but i can't help thinking it just might put off the MET from investigating the elite in the future, which would be a shame.
I really did think twice about posting on this thread.
But this case is just off the scale in terms of incompetence.
Previously there have been problems with victims coming forward and problems with the police dismissing allegations. But the current system of "victims MUST be believed" is just as bad.
If we do not test for truth then truth has no meaning. Truth and lies did not appear to concern the Met during their investigation and it should have formed the crux of it.
Although I've posted this on a political thread, the investigation is going to be performed by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. It should not be political in any way whatsoever.
However, it will have to look into whether the Met were influenced by Tom Watson pushing them into investigating the matter. No matter what they find, it will not be their job to pass any verdict on Watson - they will decide how the Met should have responded.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Can't disagree, i just fear it pushed the burden of proof for an investigation of anyone high profile so high as to make it "not worth the hassle" and many will be nipped in the bud that maybe shouldn't beRowls wrote:I understand your concern here.
I really did think twice about posting on this thread.
But this case is just off the scale in terms of incompetence.
Previously there have been problems with victims coming forward and problems with the police dismissing allegations. But the current system of "victims MUST be believed" is just as bad.
If we do not test for truth then truth has no meaning. Truth and lies did not appear to concern the Met during their investigation and it should have formed the crux of it.
Although I've posted this on a political thread, the investigation is going to be performed by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. It should not be political in any way whatsoever.
However, it will have to look into whether the Met were influenced by Tom Watson pushing them into investigating the matter. No matter what they find, it will not be their job to pass any verdict on Watson - they will decide how the Met should have responded.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
AndyClaret wrote:see post 173.
So you admit that freedom of the press is to go out the window? lol.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
So what your saying is..... your just a sh!t Cathy Newman !Imploding Turtle wrote:So you admit that freedom of the press is to go out the window? lol.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
AndyClaret wrote:So what your saying is..... your just a sh!t Cathy Newman !
Your fascism is showing.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
James O'Brien talking about this now.. he's just thrown his mate Tom Watson under a bus.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Tom Watson to stand down as an MP and not contest the election. Says the decision is "personal, not political".
(BBC.)
(BBC.)
Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
At this rate there will be no existing MP's left since Phil Hammond also said he won't be standing.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
The centre ground is vanishing before our very eyes for the 2 main political parties. A pity, as politics moves towards the extremes. Compromise and agreeing to differ are quitting the arena.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
In normal times the Lib Dems would capitalise on this polarization and hoover up a lot of floating voters,however we are not in normal times,and many leave voters in particular consider their brexit policy as sticking two fingers up to the referendum result,they might make modest gains in remain-leaning seats,but i see slim pickings in the north for the yellow peril,as they'll be squeezed by both left and right.CleggHall wrote:The centre ground is vanishing before our very eyes for the 2 main political parties. A pity, as politics moves towards the extremes. Compromise and agreeing to differ are quitting the arena.
Our politics is becoming more americanised by the the election,even the campaign launches mimicked a traditional Republican/Democratic rally.
On Watson he was never going to get a major cabinet post in the event of a Corbyn government,and he doesn't strike me as the type to sit quietly on the backbenches,his departure suggests Corbyn is winning the civil war in the Labour party,but it'll annoy many moderate Lanour MP'S.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Very rum this.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
**** the centre ground. 40 years of right and centre-right governments and look at what it's given us? Gutted services, climate change inaction, war-for-profit and massive wealth inequality. So the centre ground, and the Right along with it, can get to ****.CleggHall wrote:The centre ground is vanishing before our very eyes for the 2 main political parties. A pity, as politics moves towards the extremes. Compromise and agreeing to differ are quitting the arena.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
Running away from his part in the Carl Beech affair.
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Re: Time For Tom Watson To Apologize
lol. ok then.AndyClaret wrote:Running away from his part in the Carl Beech affair.