If we put Richard Keys in goal against Southampton, I’d back him on the Turf, that shouldn’t be in question with anyone regardless of how highly you rate Hart, or in my case don’t.

It’s absolutely crazy that the one position we looked so well equipped in has gone to us sticking our third choice in goal, but that’s circumstance. Let’s all just pray Pope is fit enough, and if he isn’t that he is very soon. We cannot afford the calamitous defensive unit we had to endure for the first half of last season - we would not survive having 12 points at Christmas again.

Joe Hart has at least achieved something which is to dethrone Beast from his 15 year reign as our #1 Marmite Goalkeeper

BurnleyFC wrote:Bailey Peacock-Farrell is nowhere near Joe Hart's level.

N Hart is nowhere near our level

I'll just put this one out there. Pope looked very ordinary at Crewe.

Did anyone else notice how much further he was coming out of the box yesterday? Last season he seemed reluctant to come off his line. Last night he was frequently out of the box completely. His distribution is excellent.

rob63 wrote:That's the spirit!

I was being sarcastic!

whiffa wrote:I was being sarcastic!

Gerraway!!

jedi_master wrote: We cannot afford the calamitous defensive unit we had to endure for the first half of last season - we would not survive having 12 points at Christmas again.

And the calamitous defensive unit was purely down to one man?

Really?

Are you really suggesting that the poor form, defensive mistakes and woefully disinterested displays by professional footballers were all down to the goalkeeper, because he didn’t come off his line and talk to them enough?

Aye, reyt.

bobinho wrote:And the calamitous defensive unit was purely down to one man?

Really?

Are you really suggesting that the poor form, defensive mistakes and woefully disinterested displays by professional footballers were all down to the goalkeeper, because he didn’t come off his line and talk to them enough?

Aye, reyt.

No, otherwise I would have said ‘the calamitous Joe Hart’.

Thought it was quite clear what ‘defensive unit’ referred to, if it needs more clarity it means the entire defensive portion of the team. With Joe Hart in goal the defensive unit was appalling. Was that down to Joe Hart? That’s for you to decide.

I have decided. I decided no.

What did you decide? Seems like yes to me from your inference.

Do I have that wrong?

Official PL stats for last season (19 games each) shows Heaton making 2 errors leading to a goal. Hart none. More saves from Hart (inc. a pen) (77 vs 63). Same number of clean sheets (4) each. Hart conceded 41 goals, Heaton 27. So that's 118 on-target chances conceded with Hart in goal, 90 with Heaton in goal. Put simply we were conceding far more chances (1.47 more per game) in the first half of the season. Need to look outfield when presented with such a disparity.

The City (5), Chelsea (4) and WHU (4) run of games has cemented a notion in some fans' minds that he's a stone cold liability when in reality the whole team was massively out of form during that period. The Everton debacle was the catalyst for a touch of revisionism, I think. Number of goals conceded was shocking in the first half, but we we were scoring far, far fewer in the first half of the season (0.84 vs 1.47 by my reckoning). As a team that couldn't give two $hits for building from the back, our limited threat up front in the first half of the season can't be wholly or even partially down to a goalkeeper. Now, am I saying Hart is a better keeper? No. I'd play Heaton and I'd rather he'd stay. But he's leaving, so here we are. Time to hit refresh. Don't take the pi$$ on the stands. Moan on here, by all means, but let's not become the kind of entitled pricks we all grew up hating when we're on the ground.

bobinho wrote:I have decided. I decided no.

What did you decide? Seems like yes to me from your inference.

Do I have that wrong?

I think Joe Hart is a good goalkeeper, who, for whatever reason, brought the worst out of a defence that had been absolutely superb the season(s) prior. That could be down to his style being different to Pope/Heaton, something personal that we have no knowledge of in the dressing room, or an overall squad overhang from the Europa League.

What is factual is that the defensive unit that started last season, of which Joe Hart was a member, conceded goals for fun (without question, we could have conceded even more but for Hart making some great saves, but the point remains) and had 12 points at Christmas.

Tom Heaton replaced Joe Hart in goal, and the defensive unit improved immeasurably. Heaton wasn’t the sole change in our upturn in form (McNeil, Barnes and Wood up top) but he was the sole change in that defensive unit and it resulted in more clean sheets and more solidity.

That is my opinion, if you have a different one then that is fine.

Post of the day from Spiral there.

Heaton has gone, so we move on.

I think that's a fair assessment and it's been debated to death on here so I'm not going to spend ages going over old ground but the other significant change in addition to those you've mentioned was Bardsley for Lowton.

Furthermore, the key to McNeil's inclusion was that it gave us a creative outlet and a reliable supply line to the strikers. The key to the upturn in form post-Christmas was that we played further up the pitch (hence our impressive goal-scoring record during this period) which took the pressure off the defence and (probably) meant we faced less shots. The ball certainly seemed to spend less time pinging around the edge of/inside our box.

There's no doubt Heaton was a key element primarily in terms of communication and organisation but it remains unknown whether or not Hart would have fared better playing behind the January 2019 onwards version of our team.

Whether or not he was the primary reason behind our August/December form - or the unfortunate victim of it we don't know - but given there seems a reasonable chance he'll start this season we may get an early opportunity to find out.

EarbyClaret wrote:I think that's a fair assessment and it's been debated to death on here so I'm not going to spend ages going over old ground but the other significant change in addition to those you've mentioned was Bardsley for Lowton.

Furthermore, the key to McNeil's inclusion was that it gave us a creative outlet and a reliable supply line to the strikers. The key to the upturn in form post-Christmas was that we played further up the pitch (hence our impressive goal-scoring record during this period) which took the pressure off the defence and (probably) meant we faced less shots. The ball certainly seemed to spend less time pinging around the edge of/inside our box.

There's no doubt Heaton was a key element primarily in terms of communication and organisation but it remains unknown whether or not Hart would have fared better playing behind the January 2019 onwards version of our team.

Whether or not he was the primary reason behind our August/December form - or the unfortunate victim of it we don't know - but given there seems a reasonable chance he'll start this season we may get an early opportunity to find out.

Fair point on Bardsley - he did make a huge difference.

Longsider wrote:I'll just put this one out there. Pope looked very ordinary at Crewe.

His distribution, particularly kicking, was very poor.

During our awful start to last season it was clear that several things were going wrong. Hart was not solely to blame, no one thinks that, however it was obvious to many that Hart was a contributing factor to the poor results. He didn’t give me any confidence. It seems he didn’t give the defence any confidence. He didn’t seem to be a calm in net, it seemed to panic the players and the fans. He did get a few MOTM but I believe that’s a combination of just how crap everyone was playing and the fact that when you get beat and the keeper has made a hand full of half decent saves there isn’t anyone else to vote for. Did he get any MOTM when we won with him in net? Many posters on here were calling for him to be dropped, and many were saying it wasn’t his fault.

Clearly he was contributing to our poor results. Our results picked up immediately after he was dropped. Our results didn’t pick up just because he was dropped, other things changed as well, but it was a contributing factor.

I wonder if those still backing him to the hilt are those who backed him to the hilt during our poor spell last season? There nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. He played his part in our poor results.

I will back Hart if he starts even though I hope he doesn’t. I just hope the other issues we had during our poor spell don’t rear their head again

I think the key is with Joe Hart this season is

1) He knows the players a lot better than last year after being thrown in without no more season and knowing his defenders strengths and weekness.

2) He’s had a full pre season

3) He has BM working on his weak areas (ie coming for crosses and staying on his line to often)

Let’s get behind Joe ,He’s a Claret after all !!

I've held off on this debate because I'm a keeper and I can see many sides to it. But I was definitely surprised how often he was beaten from distance. Fulham away twice , and definitely others.

And no, I don't think they were "worldies". You'd expect most senior keepers to get over and keep those out.

I’m not sure how any stats show Hart making no mistakes.

The 2nd goal at Fulham and one or two against Everton without even thinking about it.

All that said, we need to get behind him if the Pope is sidelined.

CharlieinNewMexico wrote:I've held off on this debate because I'm a keeper and I can see many sides to it. But I was definitely surprised how often he was beaten from distance. Fulham away twice , and definitely others.

And no, I don't think they were "worldies". You'd expect most senior keepers to get over and keep those out.

It wasn't surprising. The goals he conceded for England were shots from distance (against Scotland, Wales and Iceland) if my memory isn't playing tricks.

The way some talk about Joe Hart it's as though it was a mistake to award him 80 England caps and that by sheer luck he was a Premier league winner.

He is a different Joe Hart.

Spijed wrote:The way some talk about Joe Hart it's as though it was a mistake to award him 80 England caps and that by sheer luck he was a Premier league winner.

He evidently isn’t the same keeper as he was then his career since leaving City shows that.

Spijed wrote:The way some talk about Joe Hart it's as though it was a mistake to award him 80 England caps and that by sheer luck he was a Premier league winner.

And the way others talk about him it's as though he's the same player as when he was winning England caps and PL titles and hasn't regressed massively and been terrible since being dropped by Man City three years ago.

Spijed wrote:The way some talk about Joe Hart it's as though it was a mistake to award him 80 England caps and that by sheer luck he was a Premier league winner.

The way you post about Joe Hart it's as though we had the Paul Gascoigne of 1990 playing for us in 2002.

We played a season with only Kevin Long as back up at centre half. We played a season with Paul Robinson as our backup keeper. We played the second half of last season in relegation trouble with Peter Crouch as our 3rd choice striker. We are currently going into this season with only 3 centre midfield players of which two were our 3rd and 4th choices the season we came 7th.

The above all seemed/seem stuff to be a little concerned about whereas Joe Hart as 2nd choice keeper does not - IMO of course

With Heaton gone, (and apparently been offered astronomical wages at Villa, with personal details agreed a month ago) Hart was asked by Dyche if he is going after the Nice game, and said he will not stand in his way. However he needs to make this decision before it gets to the last 3/4 days of the transfer window so it gives us time to sort a replacement. Hence our interest on Peacock-Farrell

Devils_Advocate wrote:We played a season with only Kevin Long as back up at centre half. We played a season with Paul Robinson as our backup keeper. We played the second half of last season in relegation trouble with Peter Crouch as our 3rd choice striker. We are currently going into this season with only 3 centre midfield players of which two were our 3rd and 4th choices the season we came 7th.

The above all seemed/seem stuff to be a little concerned about whereas Joe Hart as 2nd choice keeper does not - IMO of course

You left out that one of our three central midfielders, Hendrick, is in the last year of his contract. He could have signed a new contract last year, but we triggered his one year extension. If Jeff doesn't sign a new contract we might have to think about moving him on in this window or the next. If we don't we will face the possibility of losing him for nothing.

Oh, and if Hendrick should leave then Brady probably won't be far behind. The boys to men bond they have developed over the years is probably a big factor in the pair of them being here.

Devils_Advocate wrote:We played a season with only Kevin Long as back up at centre half. We played a season with Paul Robinson as our backup keeper. We played the second half of last season in relegation trouble with Peter Crouch as our 3rd choice striker. We are currently going into this season with only 3 centre midfield players of which two were our 3rd and 4th choices the season we came 7th.

The above all seemed/seem stuff to be a little concerned about whereas Joe Hart as 2nd choice keeper does not - IMO of course

You forgotten about Marneys knee going kaboooom a few days after the window and us sleep walking to relegation?

A friend of mine here in Ireland said that Joe is on his way to Porto , hey make of that what you will .

If Joe Hart gets the nod a week on Saturday, he will have Dyche’s full confidence and support. That will be good enough for me.

It's not a popular view, but when you look at our defensive record and performances up to the New Year transformation, Ben Mee had some real stinkers, and didn't play anywhere near his best.
Was this down to Hart being in goal? As a top professional I very much doubt it. He was just going through a bad spell.

Tribesmen wrote:A friend of mine here in Ireland said that Joe is on his way to Porto , hey make of that what you will .

I think he is off somewhere before the start of the season and Porto has been doing the rounds

I've trying to convince myself to give Hart the benefit of the doubt now.
A year ago, I thought it was a good signing - Pope was injured and heaton was coming off an injury, we got a good experienced keeper.
A nightmare start to the first half of the season and everything flew out of the window.

Heaton and Pope both deserve to start and there was no way to keep each for the long term.
We could have sold Pope (our keeper of the future) or sold Heaton.

I'm keeping an open mind about Joe Hart now, letting last year's performance slide.

jedi_master wrote:It’s absolutely crazy that the one position we looked so well equipped in has gone to us sticking our third choice in goal.

At what point has Hart been third choice since joining us?