VAR.........

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Vegas Claret
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Re: VAR.........

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:29 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Under the new rules its not a penalty but I presume we are discussing the logic for the rules.

The logic for the ball accidentally hitting an attackers arm which directly resulted in a goal is that to gain / lose a goal is so great that in this circumstance any contact with the arm should be punished

In your view what is the logic for the ball accidentally striking the defenders arm on the edge of the box being given as a penalty and thus almost certainly costing the defending team a goal?

Also in your rule how do you define the rule to distinguish between the Murray handball and the Lowton scenario I put to you?
there is no logic to it and that is my issue, the Wolves goal would have hit Boly on his chest had it not hit his arm and could well have landed in the same place.

As the rule stands at the moment if it hits your hand as an attacking player then the goal is ruled out regardless if intent, it should be the same at the other end, I'd personally scrap the rule altogether because it's utter nonsense

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Penalising a hand ball that definitively results in a goal is entirely different than penalising a hand ball that may have prevented a goal.
had it not hit his hand it would have probably hit his chest, i disagree with you 100% under the new rule, under the old rule I agree with you 100%

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:37 pm

Rileybobs wrote:The problem is that not all offsides are decided by VAR. so then we have a different offside rule for decisions leading to goals and ones that don’t. An AR could correctly call a player offside by 5cm and then the opposing team could go down the other end from that free kick and a player who is offside by the same margin could score a goal which would stand.
I know what you are saying and Im on the same side as you of this debate but I can see some merit.

The linesmen should still make their decisions based on the original law/rule but any offside decision that is that close and results in a goal or penalty or red card is now always going to go to VAR so there would be consistency.

If a linesman's decision that didnt go to VAR as it wasnt a significant decision is reviewed as just part of normal analysis then the 5cm rule wouldn't be applicable but by default these decisions would hardly analysed as by definition by not going to VAR they are not that important. Anyhow it would only be analysis so again there would be consistency in the decision making from the officials

Struggling to articulate my thoughts into a message but hope you get my gist

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:39 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:there is no logic to it and that is my issue, the Wolves goal would have hit Boly on his chest had it not hit his arm and could well have landed in the same place.

As the rule stands at the moment if it hits your hand as an attacking player then the goal is ruled out regardless if intent, it should be the same at the other end, I'd personally scrap the rule altogether because it's utter nonsense
Fair enough we are really seeing things differently so we've probably debated as much as we can on this without starting to repeat ourselves.

On this one we'll just disagree I think
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Re: VAR.........

Post by bfcmik » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:41 pm

As long as the rules are applied reasonably consistently I don't see what the problem is. Our current level of technology works to certain parameters - but they will be the same parameters for every VAR decision - unlike the non-VAR system where players could be onside by a yard and get flagged offside or offside by a yard and get waved on.

Handball rules are clear for referees, attackers and defenders - not necessarily fair to everyone but easy to arbitrate on with a lot of consistency.
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Vegas Claret
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Re: VAR.........

Post by Vegas Claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Fair enough we are really seeing things differently so we've probably debated as much as we can on this without starting to repeat ourselves.

On this one we'll just disagree I think
at least it puts to be the philosophy that VAR would stop people debating ! :D
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Re: VAR.........

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:I know what you are saying and Im on the same side as you of this debate but I can see some merit.

The linesmen should still make their decisions based on the original law/rule but any offside decision that is that close and results in a goal or penalty or red card is now always going to go to VAR so there would be consistency.

If a linesman's decision that didnt go to VAR as it wasnt a significant decision is reviewed as just part of normal analysis then the 5cm rule wouldn't be applicable but by default these decisions would hardly analysed as by definition by not going to VAR they are not that important. Anyhow it would only be analysis so again there would be consistency in the decision making from the officials

Struggling to articulate my thoughts into a message but hope you get my gist
Yeah, I get the reason for all the points and suggestions raised, just think we’re in danger of over complicating something even more for no actual gain.

I’m not a fan of VAR - as an armchair football fan it adds to the spectacle, it certainly did in the CL semi final. But as someone who passionately supports a team and goes to games it worsens the game. It’s here to stay so we’ve just got to see how it plays out.

The technology is lagging behind, particularly when you see how slick DRS is executed in cricket. For the amount of money in the game VAR is archaic.

I’m surprised PL grounds don’t have a similar system to that which decides horse races or track events - granted this particular camera would need to be on a runner and be trained on the last man. It’s not beyond the wit of man though.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Scott Arfield's Swag » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:44 pm

Paul Waine wrote:I think we need a "sticky" for VAR.

I'm puzzled why the reason for re-taking Aguero's pen at London Stadium was because a WHU player encroached. Why not go with the keeper didn't have one of his two feet on the line when the ball was kicked? Or, is that one of the new rules that Premier League have decided not to apply?

It appears that the rule makers/refs have got a "new toy" - but don't know how it's supposed to work.

It would be so easy to determine that offside arises when the player is nearer to the goal line when the ball is played forward by a member of the attacking side - and "nearer" will be judged as "nearer" when the gap is at least 10 cms between the attacker and relevant member of the defending team - measured where each player is closest to the pitch, i.e normally the boots/feet - and take out concerns about heads, shoulders or other body parts.
City were allowed to re-take the penalty because the encroaching player (Rice) cleared the ball from the save by Fabianski, therefore gaining an advantage by encroaching. Had the ball been parried wide of the goal, the save would have stood

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Devils_Advocate » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:47 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yeah, I get the reason for all the points and suggestions raised, just think we’re in danger of over complicating something even more for no actual gain.

I’m not a fan of VAR - as an armchair football fan it adds to the spectacle, it certainly did in the CL semi final. But as someone who passionately supports a team and goes to games it worsens the game. It’s here to stay so we’ve just got to see how it plays out.

The technology is lagging behind, particularly when you see how slick DRS is executed in cricket. For the amount of money in the game VAR is archaic.

I’m surprised PL grounds don’t have a similar system to that which decides horse races or track events - granted this particular camera would need to be on a runner and be trained on the last man. It’s not beyond the wit of man though.
Yep agree we are just gonna over complicate things and like you Im not a VAR fan. I would rather just let the ref make the decision and respect sometime mistakes are made

Only positive for me this weekend was that the principle about obvious mistake was seeming to be followed in the Prem and just hope that continues

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:47 pm

bfcmik wrote:As long as the rules are applied reasonably consistently I don't see what the problem is. Our current level of technology works to certain parameters - but they will be the same parameters for every VAR decision - unlike the non-VAR system where players could be onside by a yard and get flagged offside or offside by a yard and get waved on.

Handball rules are clear for referees, attackers and defenders - not necessarily fair to everyone but easy to arbitrate on with a lot of consistency.
This, exactly this.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:56 pm

My thoughts on VAR are that it is needed but not exactly in the way it is being used at present. I personally can see in 5 years sensors being in a players toecaps of their boots, plus the ball and some sort of sensor across the touchline which would automatically know if a player is offside at the time of the ball being struck. The issue I have is that an arm flailing does not make you offside (in my view), it is not giving you any advantage in a footrace if your head or arm is ahead of a defender facing the other way.

Quick question on it so : the Che Adams red card? Was no action took because the ref didnt feel it was a red card? Therefore the guys assessing saying no you are probably right it was possibly a yellow? But because that wasnt what he questioned (a red card challenge) no action was took, whereas on review surely it was at least a yellow. Or did the assessors flag it up, then ask ref what he saw? When he explained what he saw the assessors then say well you have seen enough to make a fair judgement and we agree you saw enough for no action to be took. So the judgement was made on assessors agreeing that the ref saw enough rightly or wrongly to make the judgement

Hope you understand the question ha ha and can offer an explanation

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:58 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Yep agree we are just gonna over complicate things and like you Im not a VAR fan. I would rather just let the ref make the decision and respect sometime mistakes are made

Only positive for me this weekend was that the principle about obvious mistake was seeming to be followed in the Prem and just hope that continues
Considering that this was the first match week that VAR has been in place you'd have to say that the referees and assistants across the PL this weekend did very well. There will be some monumental balls-up, of that I'm sure, but it worked a lot smoother than I was expecting.
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Re: VAR.........

Post by bfcmik » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:01 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Quick question on it so : the Che Adams red card? Was no action took because the ref didnt feel it was a red card? Therefore the guys assessing saying no you are probably right it was possibly a yellow? But because that wasnt what he questioned (a red card challenge) no action was took, whereas on review surely it was at least a yellow. Or did the assessors flag it up, then ask ref what he saw? When he explained what he saw the assessors then say well you have seen enough to make a fair judgement and we agree you saw enough for no action to be took. So the judgement was made on assessors agreeing that the ref saw enough rightly or wrongly to make the judgement
I have read that Adams was deemed to have played the ball before the contact with Mee's leg so not a red card offence and, once the question goes off for VAR then a yellow cannot be awarded if a red is not seen as appropriate.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Rileybobs » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:01 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:My thoughts on VAR are that it is needed but not exactly in the way it is being used at present. I personally can see in 5 years sensors being in a players toecaps of their boots, plus the ball and some sort of sensor across the touchline which would automatically know if a player is offside at the time of the ball being struck. The issue I have is that an arm flailing does not make you offside (in my view), it is not giving you any advantage in a footrace if your head or arm is ahead of a defender facing the other way.
Arms don't come into the equation, it is only parts of the body that a player can legally score with - which is everything other than the arms.

I don't agree that a head not being ahead doesn't give an advantage though. In the case of a whipped cross across the 6 yard line an attacker being a head in front of a defender then heading the ball in has clearly gained an advantage.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:02 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Quick question on it so : the Che Adams red card? Was no action took because the ref didnt feel it was a red card? Therefore the guys assessing saying no you are probably right it was possibly a yellow? But because that wasnt what he questioned (a red card challenge) no action was took, whereas on review surely it was at least a yellow. Or did the assessors flag it up, then ask ref what he saw? When he explained what he saw the assessors then say well you have seen enough to make a fair judgement and we agree you saw enough for no action to be took. So the judgement was made on assessors agreeing that the ref saw enough rightly or wrongly to make the judgement

Hope you understand the question ha ha and can offer an explanation
The simple explanation is that VAR is only used for goals, penalties, red cards and mistaken identity.

They reviewed the Che Adams incident to see if it was a clear and obvious error not to award a red card, decided it wasn't and that was the end of it.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:07 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Arms don't come into the equation, it is only parts of the body that a player can legally score with - which is everything other than the arms.

I don't agree that a head not being ahead doesn't give an advantage though. In the case of a whipped cross across the 6 yard line an attacker being a head in front of a defender then heading the ball in has clearly gained an advantage.
Wasnt Sterling pulled up because of his arm?

Hadnt thought of that regards a header at goal. Thank you

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Cleveleys_claret wrote:Wasnt Sterling pulled up because of his arm?
It was his shoulder.

Image

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Re: VAR.........

Post by dougcollins » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:11 pm

If you penalised every hand touch you would literally have specialists aiming for this rather than shooting.
Every rule change is mercilessly exploited much to the consternation of the PL.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:16 pm

Tall Paul wrote:It was his shoulder.

Image
Well that is ridiculous, for starters that line touches the top of his arm. If he was to score with that he would be pulled for handball....yet from what I have just learned you can only be offside from a part of the body with which you can score from

Not having a go at you...just the rule

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Re: VAR.........

Post by duncandisorderly » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:52 pm

Regarding offsides - I think it should just be feet.
In the picture above it's pretty ridiculous that Sterling is going to score with his shoulder, and apart from John Gayle who has ever scored with their shoulder? But his foot is offside, so give offside for that, not his shoulder.
Most centre forwards and centre halves are of similar stature these days, and if a team keeps leaving a midget right back against a giant attacker then more fool them, but if it was just feet it'd be just as fair for everyone as it is now, but easier to officiate.

IMO, of course.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Tall Paul » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:55 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Rapart from John Gayle who has ever scored with their shoulder?
Mario Balotelli
Image

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Paul Waine » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:30 pm

Scott Arfield's Swag wrote:City were allowed to re-take the penalty because the encroaching player (Rice) cleared the ball from the save by Fabianski, therefore gaining an advantage by encroaching. Had the ball been parried wide of the goal, the save would have stood
Are the Premier League giving up, totally on the rule of one foot on the line?

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Cleveleys_claret » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:36 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Are the Premier League giving up, totally on the rule of one foot on the line?
That rule is not one which VAR has control over. It is solely the referees decision. He should be monitoring that area and deciding. VAR is for the things he can not always see.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by RammyClaret61 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:07 am

This is a BBC review of one VAR incident yesterday.

Burnley v Southampton.
The incident: Another red card review. This time Burnley's Johann Berg Gudmundsson clatters into Southampton's Ryan Bertrand. A free-kick - but no card - is the on-field decision. After a VAR check, that verdict stands.

Foy's verdict: "To overturn a decision, we are looking for the kind of incident where everyone goes 'crikey'. This wasn't one of those."

Really Mr Foy??

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Vegas Claret » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:20 pm

Vegas Claret wrote:there is no logic to it and that is my issue, the Wolves goal would have hit Boly on his chest had it not hit his arm and could well have landed in the same place.

As the rule stands at the moment if it hits your hand as an attacking player then the goal is ruled out regardless if intent, it should be the same at the other end, I'd personally scrap the rule altogether because it's utter nonsense

just heard this exact debate on the radio with Dermot Gallagher and an ex pro who both agree the rule is nonsense where it's given as a handball if it hits the attackers arm but not the defenders arm

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Re: VAR.........

Post by dsr » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:17 am

RammyClaret61 wrote:This is a BBC review of one VAR incident yesterday.

Burnley v Southampton.
The incident: Another red card review. This time Burnley's Johann Berg Gudmundsson clatters into Southampton's Ryan Bertrand. A free-kick - but no card - is the on-field decision. After a VAR check, that verdict stands.

Foy's verdict: "To overturn a decision, we are looking for the kind of incident where everyone goes 'crikey'. This wasn't one of those."

Really Mr Foy??
What the SHOULD be using it for is the sort of decision where it is clearly seen that the referee was wrong. Not for the ones that could have gone either way, not for the ones that one ref will see as red and another yellow, but for decisions when the ref was wrong. This would be quite rare for straight red dangerous tackles, and would be relatively rare for offsides as well. Cases like Wood at Watford last year would be clearly overturned. Cases like Sterling on Saturday would not.

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Re: VAR.........

Post by Vegas Claret » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:45 am

VAR was brought in to assist the refs, it's leading them already instead which is a real shame

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