Owen Jones assaulted

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Damo
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Damo » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:26 pm

All those examples were the wrong kind of socialism

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:27 am

Damo wrote:All those examples were the wrong kind of socialism
Believe it or not there is more than one socialist theory. Communism is just one of them.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:15 pm

AndrewJB wrote:If the Soviets said they were socialist, then they must have been. Just like the German Democratic Republic, and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea were, well, democracy - sometimes it spies on and executes you.
Somebody throw the excuse monkeys a banana!

:lol:

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:19 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm sure the Democratic People's Republic of Korea will be pleased to know just how ******* gullible you are.
I doubt they'd give a monkeys to be honest. Just as theyd not give a flying one about whether their socialist barbarism is or isn't being excused by a , see no evil , excuse chimp!

;)

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by RingoMcCartney » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Socialists-

"It wasn't us Gov'ner! We've neva dan naffink, honest!"

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Imploding Turtle » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:23 pm

"socialist barbarism" :lol:

willsclarets
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 133 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by willsclarets » Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:59 am

Socialism does not work, and although the identifiers are less clear on the left for "how far is too far" to the left -fundamentally what it does is remove freedoms but in a different way to the right.

At some point socialism requires not equality of opportunity, but equality of outcome. That principal alone is at best unhealthy and at worst really dangerous. The problem to the right is inequality of opportunity, sometimes for more explicitly abhorrent ideas of racial inequality and sometimes because of economic policy.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Erasmus » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:45 am

For those who are interested, the reason why communist regimes like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics used the term socialist was based on Marxist doctrine. Marx argued that state enforced socialism was an essential stage on the path towards establishing communism. So Marxists are not and were not socialists, they were using socialism as a first stage towards communism.

This stands in contrast to the Social Democrats who were and are socialists in the sense of reforming the existing system along more egalitarian lines rather than overthrowing it completely by revolutionary means. This is the essential difference between socialism and communism. Marx despised social democrats because he regarded their reformism as degrading the revolutionary tendencies of the proletariat. An instructive example is Germany in the 1920s where the Social Democratic Party was in power for most of the time. The Communist Party was very much opposed to the Social Democrats with a good deal of hostility between them. The British Labour Party under Attlee is another example of socialism where it is not wedded to Marxist ideology.

As for the German National Socialist Party, those familiar with history will be aware that in the 1920s Hitler purged it of any socialist tendencies. A large part of his gaining power in Germany was due to his insisting that private ownership be preserved, thereby gaining the support of wealthy industrialists who saw him as a bastion against socialist policies of redistribution of wealth and against the Communist Party's revolutionary intentions.
This user liked this post: nil_desperandum

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by thatdberight » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:56 pm

Erasmus wrote:For those who are interested, the reason why communist regimes like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics used the term socialist was based on Marxist doctrine. Marx argued that state enforced socialism was an essential stage on the path towards establishing communism. So Marxists are not and were not socialists, they were using socialism as a first stage towards communism.
That's one reading of Marx and Engels although your use of the word 'using' is unfair implying they were trying to misuse socialism to launch communism.
Marx saw it as an inevitable stepping stone. To be honest the words have taken on so many different meanings and are so loaded with connotations of what regimes did, not to mention that Marx particularly wrote so much and often used communism and socialism interchangeably that it's futile trying to untangle it all.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Erasmus » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:26 pm

I would agree with most of that although it is important to maintain the distinction between Marxism and Social Democracy, the latter being reformist, the former revolutionary. We hear Cornyn referred to ask a Marxist which is quite wrong as he is a Social Democrats.

Corky
Posts: 1431
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:37 pm
Been Liked: 535 times
Has Liked: 414 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Corky » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:35 pm

I quite often refer to myself as a social capitalist. I think anyone who doesn't to some extent think like a capitalist is delusional. We all want to earn more money. It is what we do with it that can then define us. So you have the guy who runs Richer Sound. In every way a very ethical capitalist. Or you can have Rees-Mogg who puts his money offshore to avoid paying tax. Perfectly legal but thoroughly, morally, reprehensible.

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Erasmus » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:01 pm

It is a matter of where we strike the balance. For example, many in the USA think the NHS is a socialist institution because it is not run on capitalist principles as healthcare is in the US. Then there is the question of whether or not energy provision or the railways should be run by the state on a non-profit basis. As a believer in social democracy, I would much prefer gas, water and electricity to be run by the state rather than the scoundrels who are presently in charge. Same goes for the railways and the postal service.

Clarets4me
Posts: 4948
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
Been Liked: 2307 times
Has Liked: 1033 times
Location: Ightenhill,Burnley

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Clarets4me » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:19 pm

socialism.jpg
socialism.jpg (51.66 KiB) Viewed 4470 times
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:02 am

Erasmus wrote:For those who are interested, the reason why communist regimes like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics used the term socialist was based on Marxist doctrine. Marx argued that state enforced socialism was an essential stage on the path towards establishing communism. So Marxists are not and were not socialists, they were using socialism as a first stage towards communism.

This stands in contrast to the Social Democrats who were and are socialists in the sense of reforming the existing system along more egalitarian lines rather than overthrowing it completely by revolutionary means. This is the essential difference between socialism and communism. Marx despised social democrats because he regarded their reformism as degrading the revolutionary tendencies of the proletariat. An instructive example is Germany in the 1920s where the Social Democratic Party was in power for most of the time. The Communist Party was very much opposed to the Social Democrats with a good deal of hostility between them. The British Labour Party under Attlee is another example of socialism where it is not wedded to Marxist ideology.

As for the German National Socialist Party, those familiar with history will be aware that in the 1920s Hitler purged it of any socialist tendencies. A large part of his gaining power in Germany was due to his insisting that private ownership be preserved, thereby gaining the support of wealthy industrialists who saw him as a bastion against socialist policies of redistribution of wealth and against the Communist Party's revolutionary intentions.
Yep!

Another banana required.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by thatdberight » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:20 am

Erasmus wrote:It is a matter of where we strike the balance. For example, many in the USA think the NHS is a socialist institution because it is not run on capitalist principles as healthcare is in the US. Then there is the question of whether or not energy provision or the railways should be run by the state on a non-profit basis. As a believer in social democracy, I would much prefer gas, water and electricity to be run by the state rather than the scoundrels who are presently in charge. Same goes for the railways and the postal service.
Surely food and housing are more basic requirements than railways and postal services? Why do you baulk at letting the state run these exclusively as well? And if railways and postal services, surely banks? And...

aggi
Posts: 8762
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:31 am
Been Liked: 2109 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by aggi » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:39 am

It's weird how posters like Ringo are so pro-capitalist here but anti-capitalist if the EU are involved.
This user liked this post: Imploding Turtle

If it be your will
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
Been Liked: 500 times
Has Liked: 509 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by If it be your will » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:43 am

thatdberight wrote:Surely food and housing are more basic requirements than railways and postal services? Why do you baulk at letting the state run these exclusively as well? And if railways and postal services, surely banks? And...
I asked myself such searching questions when I was about 12 and declared myself a communist!

Those areas that are 'natural monopolies' (energy, water, rail, roads, police, army...) it is senseless to have true competition because it is so obviously more efficient to have a single provider. In the early (truly competitive) days of rail, say, there was often more than one track between 2 points despite neither being anywhere near full capacity - stupid, really. Equally, nobody would seriously suggest having several parallel electricity grids, or parallel gas pipelines, or parallel water pipes to each house in order to provide true competition, because it would be ruinously expensive to build and maintain. And if there is to be only one provider, it should be publicly owned and democratically accountable. Handing such monopolies to a private entity would result in dreadful service and astronomical prices, due to a complete absence of competition. In response you would be forced to regulate them heavily. And every time you legislate to this end, the private entity would seek a loophole, so you have to regulate even more heavily, and before you know it, the publicly-owned regulators are so busy desperately trying to micro-regulate, they might as well run the damned thing themselves! (Does this sound familiar?) So for these areas there's no dispute in my mind - publicly owned and democratically accountable.

Health is less clear-cut. But if rich people don't subsidise health for the poor via their taxes (i.e. the NHS), the poor will die. You could argue it would be in the interests of the rich to keep the workers healthy, so they would provide healthcare for them. But even this would only be offered to able-bodied people, and only then if there was a shortage of able-bodied people (and their would be endless 'prisoner's dilemma' games going on between corporations, too). All the old and poor would die. So it's the NHS for me.

Postal service I have no clear argument against privatisation - it just seemed to work better when it was state owned, that's all.

Houses and food? No obvious reason these can't be competitive, despite being utterly essential. So they're fine as a competitive market. I'm nice, though, so I would suggest we - the public - should guarantee a basic provision of these for everyone, no matter what, if only to make the world a less barbaric and crime-ridden cesspit. Hence my support for a universal basic income.

Banks? There should be a fully state-owned full-service bank that is democratically accountable, yes. There can be private banks too, though. We must immediately remove one massive subsidy the private banks receive, however: deposit protection. If you stick your money in a private bank when there's a publicly owned alternative, the public should not reimburse you if it fails. You took the risk. You took the interest. You pay the price. That would go a long way to ending casino banking.

(You knew all these arguments already, didn't you thatberight? So your post was utterly insincere, and targeted at a third party audience that might not have considered all these things in the hope of bending them to your political will under false pretences. It's bad practice, that.)

I can't stand Owen Jones, but I wouldn't kick his head in.
Last edited by If it be your will on Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

morpheus2
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 750 times
Has Liked: 1827 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by morpheus2 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:56 am

Image

This meme is a reasonably accurate depiction of the deadly scourge that is Socialism, with your National Socialists in a poor third place.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These 7 users liked this post: Claret66 Imploding Turtle Greenmile Siddo Lancasterclaret Lord Beamish Rowls
This user liked this post: Spiral

Spiral
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 2518 times
Has Liked: 333 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Spiral » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:21 am

Not quite subtle enough. The trail of full stops in your post ends a bit short of the text body as is seen in other liked posts. Imagine going to that length to troll then being called out within half an hour...and at 2 in the morning!!!

edit-see!
These 3 users liked this post: nil_desperandum Greenmile morpheus2

Spiral
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:37 am
Been Liked: 2518 times
Has Liked: 333 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Spiral » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:32 am

I'll be honest, it was the capitalisation that gave it away. You've obviously rehearsed this elsewhere and ctrl+c/v'd your script onto this thread before adding the personal touch designed to inflame debate about [uppercase]S[/uppercase]ocialism.

The trail of full stops can also be highlighted, unlike the trail forming the footer on other posts, if anyone is interested. Long story short, morpheus2 is attempting to insult everyone's intelligence. I know that can at times be a rather low bar to clear on this forum, but still, have a bit of self respect, folks. Recognise propaganda for what it is.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3948 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by nil_desperandum » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:55 am

Spiral wrote:Not quite subtle enough. The trail of full stops in your post ends a bit short of the text body as is seen in other liked posts. Imagine going to that length to troll then being called out within half an hour...and at 2 in the morning!!!

edit-see!
Added to that the poor choice of "Lancasterclaret" amongst the 7 - who hasn't been seen on these threads for almost 2 months.
Good effort but I'm afraid a fail.

thatdberight
Posts: 3748
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
Been Liked: 927 times
Has Liked: 716 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by thatdberight » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:43 am

If it be your will wrote:You knew all these arguments already, didn't you thatberight? So your post was utterly insincere, and targeted at a third party audience that might not have considered all these things in the hope of bending them to your political will under false pretences. It's bad practice, that.
I knew they might be your arguments. But if you really think I live in this noticeboard, "targeting" a "third party audience" to "bend them" to my "political will" you're a complete ******* retard with delusions. **** off. Bell end.

Enjoy your bank holiday being "nice".
This user liked this post: If it be your will

morpheus2
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 750 times
Has Liked: 1827 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by morpheus2 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:33 am

Spiral wrote:Not quite subtle enough. The trail of full stops in your post ends a bit short of the text body as is seen in other liked posts. Imagine going to that length to troll then being called out within half an hour...and at 2 in the morning!!!

edit-see!
Also the script size is right in between the choices given in the editor facility of 'small' and 'tiny'. It's somewhere between there and there.

Quickenthetempo
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
Been Liked: 3843 times
Has Liked: 2065 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Quickenthetempo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:51 am

Does he keep getting assaulted? This post keeps going to the top of the board everyday.

He must be an unlucky chap?
These 2 users liked this post: GodIsADeeJay81 nil_desperandum

morpheus2
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 750 times
Has Liked: 1827 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by morpheus2 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:56 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Does he keep getting assaulted? This post keeps going to the top of the board everyday.

He must be an unlucky chap?
I think it's since been determined that the poor chap conflates 'assaulted' with 'insulted'...he'll throw another hissy fit and get over it eventually.

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:56 am

willsclarets wrote:Socialism does not work, and although the identifiers are less clear on the left for "how far is too far" to the left -fundamentally what it does is remove freedoms but in a different way to the right.

At some point socialism requires not equality of opportunity, but equality of outcome. That principal alone is at best unhealthy and at worst really dangerous. The problem to the right is inequality of opportunity, sometimes for more explicitly abhorrent ideas of racial inequality and sometimes because of economic policy.
Capitalism doesn’t work in its purest form - as we had in the early nineteenth century. We’ve had a mixed economy for over a hundred years, and saw our greatest period of general prosperity after WW2, when the “socialist” component was increased and the welfare state created. Surely this has proved better than capitalism or socialism by themselves?
These 2 users liked this post: Imploding Turtle morpheus2

AndrewJB
Posts: 3808
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:20 pm
Been Liked: 1159 times
Has Liked: 754 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by AndrewJB » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:11 pm

thatdberight wrote:Surely food and housing are more basic requirements than railways and postal services? Why do you baulk at letting the state run these exclusively as well? And if railways and postal services, surely banks? And...
I think there should be a state run alternative to banking and insurance (as well as utilities, trains, etc). Council houses (state provided property) are said by many people to be in too short supply. Where the state should have exclusivity in my opinion is in general healthcare and education. Where the elites are able to access a separate private system, the public system will always be neglected.

willsclarets
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 133 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by willsclarets » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:10 pm

AndrewJB wrote:Capitalism doesn’t work in its purest form - as we had in the early nineteenth century. We’ve had a mixed economy for over a hundred years, and saw our greatest period of general prosperity after WW2, when the “socialist” component was increased and the welfare state created. Surely this has proved better than capitalism or socialism by themselves?
That's exactly where I stand, agree with your assessment totally there.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by RingoMcCartney » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:18 pm

aggi wrote:It's weird how posters like Ringo are so pro-capitalist here but anti-capitalist if the EU are involved.
It's really weird how posters like "outright lies" Aggi, make the quantum leap of pointing out, factual and historical, Socialist barbarism, to giving unquestioning approval to an entirely different societal construct!

Apologist banana required here!



Socialists - you gotta love 'em.









Or else they'll turn up, mob handed, with "papers" requiring your presence........

Erasmus
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 574 times
Has Liked: 44 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Erasmus » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:07 am

Ringo, I hate to say this but your contributions to this discussion have been very poor. I know the thread has moved away quite a distance from the original topic, but the question of the distinction or identity between socialist and communist ideals is an important one that has both historical and contemporary relevance. Your contributions suggest that you have little understanding of this issue and my advice would be that when you don't have knowledge or understanding of a subject you keep quiet.

This is an important issue because of the accusations of 'Marxism' that are being thrown at the Labour Party because it is more socialist leaning than in the recent past. Always it seems, such slurs (if that is what they are) are not supported by reasoned arguments, and your comments here fall into that category.

If you do support the view that socialism and communism are essentially indistinguishable then please present your arguments to show why you feel this is a valid position. I would be genuinely interested to listen to those arguments and reflect on them. Otherwise, your silly remarks about monkeys and bananas show you up in a very poor light.
These 2 users liked this post: Imploding Turtle Greenmile

AlargeClaret
Posts: 4428
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm
Been Liked: 1148 times
Has Liked: 180 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:08 pm

Amongst all the bullsh1t about socialism is there any news on the wronged poppet of the thread title ?

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:25 pm

Jones was assaulted, the media reported it and now the police are investigating and trying to find the perpetrators.

Not sure what more you want but the obsession about the CCTV and the conspiracy about it being faked seems even a bit strange for todays crop of batsh*t mental, gullible idiots.

I really do wonder how absurd outlets such as Breitbart and Guido Fawkes would have to get before these people actually questioned it

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:58 pm

In regards to CCTV, I've seen it released in the hunt for suspects far quicker for attacks on lesser people than this bloke.

AlargeClaret
Posts: 4428
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:55 pm
Been Liked: 1148 times
Has Liked: 180 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by AlargeClaret » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:58 pm

I very much doubt he made it up,he may be an hysterical fanatic blinded by his own rhetoric ,but ultimately he’s an intelligent ,guy and with his agenda it would be political suicide if he pulled a stunt like that. I’ve never heard any conspiracy theories about the assault .Perhaps the OB have told him to keep quiet in lieu of charges etc just presumed something would have come out about it given the coverage it received .

Imploding Turtle
Posts: 19799
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
Been Liked: 5483 times
Has Liked: 2540 times
Location: Burnley, Lancs

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Imploding Turtle » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:02 pm

AlargeClaret wrote:I very much doubt he made it up,he may be an hysterical fanatic blinded by his own rhetoric ,but ultimately he’s an intelligent ,guy and with his agenda it would be political suicide if he pulled a stunt like that. I’ve never heard any conspiracy theories about the assault .Perhaps the OB have told him to keep quiet in lieu of charges etc just presumed something would have come out about it given the coverage it received .

Can you explain why you think he's a "hysterical fanatic"? Perhaps with examples of his hysterical fanaticism.

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:17 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:In regards to CCTV, I've seen it released in the hunt for suspects far quicker for attacks on lesser people than this bloke.
And by the same measure there's plenty of assaults that take place where the CCTV is not released. It will depend on the situation and what the police seem to be the best course of action.

Out of interest what is the clamour for the CCTV as I've never heard it be such a talking point with an attack like this before?

The way this has played out has felt like the way women were treated 30 years ago around being raped. She must have led him on, look at what she was wearing, did she just change her mind, did it really happen. This seems to be the narrative attached to Jones assault where he has almost become the guilty party rather than the victim.

I really do wonder if certain parts of society are starting to go backwards or whether there's always been the backward lot but in todays climate their sad views are getting more acceptance and validation

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:20 pm

He's in the media stating as a fact that he was attacked by people for political reasons etc.

If you're going to state things like that it would be a fair assumption that they'd want to find the people quickly and, pending the investigation, deal with them appropriately.

Not sure why you're comparing it to rape, but hey ho whatever floats your boat.
This user liked this post: Damo

Devils_Advocate
Posts: 12345
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm
Been Liked: 5202 times
Has Liked: 920 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Devils_Advocate » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:24 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:He's in the media stating as a fact that he was attacked by people for political reasons etc.

If you're going to state things like that it would be a fair assumption that they'd want to find the people quickly and, pending the investigation, deal with them appropriately.

Not sure why you're comparing it to rape, but hey ho whatever floats your boat.
Im sure they do want to find the people quickly but we dont have any idea where the police are with their investigation. Why do you think the CCTV hasnt been released?

As for comparing it to rape then you're just being thick. It was the victim blaming culture attached to rape that I was comparing and I think that comparison is a very good one

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by TVC15 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:26 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:He's in the media stating as a fact that he was attacked by people for political reasons etc.

If you're going to state things like that it would be a fair assumption that they'd want to find the people quickly and, pending the investigation, deal with them appropriately.

Not sure why you're comparing it to rape, but hey ho whatever floats your boat.
Very clearly it’s not a comparison to the act of rape - it’s a comparison to the reaction.
And you know that - but choose to antagonise the thread further.
Some of the posts on this thread are scary
This user liked this post: Devils_Advocate

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:48 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Im sure they do want to find the people quickly but we dont have any idea where the police are with their investigation. Why do you think the CCTV hasnt been released?

As for comparing it to rape then you're just being thick. It was the victim blaming culture attached to rape that I was comparing and I think that comparison is a very good one
I'll make the point again, which you've ignored.

CCTV has been released for attacks on lesser people in less time.

As for rape etc, in fully aware of the blame/victim culture just didn't see why you included it, nothing to do with me being thick, nor was I antagonizing you as someone else is now saying.

He's running around pointing the finger of blame at people when a current police investigation is ongoing, as you've just pointed out.
He shouldn't really be doing that as it muddies the waters in the investigation, unless he can prove beyond doubt that he was attacked for political reasons.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:50 pm

TVC15 wrote:Very clearly it’s not a comparison to the act of rape - it’s a comparison to the reaction.
And you know that - but choose to antagonise the thread further.
Some of the posts on this thread are scary
So is the eagerness to believe an accuser with no facts....
Or is that how we do things now?

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by TVC15 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:08 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:So is the eagerness to believe an accuser with no facts....
Or is that how we do things now?
You have no idea that there are “no facts”.

That’s the difference between me and you. I haven’t commented on whether I believe it to be true or not. Whereas you seem to be challenging whether he is telling the truth and banging on about CCTV being required to substantiate his version of events. How do you know that he has not presented other facts or evidence ?

Would think that the “normal” thing to do in a case where none of us have a clue what has happened is to wait for the police / courts to decide.
The abnormal thing to do is express an opinion about what you think might have happened or questioning his version of events because you don’t like him.

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:22 pm

TVC15 wrote:
You have no idea that there are “no facts”.

That’s the difference between me and you. I haven’t commented on whether I believe it to be true or not. Whereas you seem to be challenging whether he is telling the truth and banging on about CCTV being required to substantiate his version of events. How do you know that he has not presented other facts or evidence ?

Would think that the “normal” thing to do in a case where none of us have a clue what has happened is to wait for the police / courts to decide.
The abnormal thing to do is express an opinion about what you think might have happened or questioning his version of events because you don’t like him.
I didn't know who he was before he appeared telling everyone he'd been attacked by right wing people.
I suspect it's the same for a lot of people.

I'm neither here nor there about him and certainly haven't expressed a negative view about him.

The normal thing to do is wait for the police to deal with it, whereas this bloke thinks it's the done thing to sling accusations around in the media with nothing as yet to back his side of the story up, that's why I questioned none of the cctv footage being released to help identify his alleged attackers.

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by TVC15 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:52 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
before he appeared telling everyone he'd been attacked by right wing people.

sling accusations around in the media with nothing as yet to back his side of the story up

alleged attackers.
At least you’ve not made your mind up then !

As I said you have not got a clue whether he has got anything to back up his story - yet you keep on saying he has nothing

Damo
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by Damo » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:21 pm

Has anyone actually asked to see the cctv footage, or have they said the culprits should be easy to identify due to the area it happened, and the assumption that there will be a large amount of CCTV footage to go through?
Also, Owen claimed the people who carried out the "attack" were far right thugs, so you would assume they would be on some sort of surveillance register in this day and age. Unless they have never expressed far right tendencies before.
It's all well and good calling people names for taking his account with a pinch of salt, given his political position in the media and his emotionally over the top approach to life. But taking his word as gospel, without even a morsel of evidence, just because you like him, is just as mental in my opinion
This user liked this post: GodIsADeeJay81

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:37 pm

TVC15 wrote:At least you’ve not made your mind up then !

As I said you have not got a clue whether he has got anything to back up his story - yet you keep on saying he has nothing
Nothing as yet, that's what I keep on saying.
He's provided zero proof in public that he was attacked by right wingers, but he's told all and sundry that he was.

In the current political environment he's either telling the truth, which he might well be, or looking to stoke political flames a bit.
Either way none of us know and that's why I've queried that lack of CCTV, phone clips etc of the attack.
There's nothing as yet, but for someone who's clearly in the public eye it's a bit odd that nothings been released in an effort to track down the alleged attackers.

Some posters on here usually demand proof when allegations are made, but in this instance not many seem that bothered about proof of the allegations.

Also if there is an ongoing investigation he shouldn't be sat there telling the world it's right wingers, unless he can actually back that up, because he's not helping the investigation.
I've no issue with him telling people that he's been subjected to a kicking and appealing for witnesses, the issue is, and always has been, his declaration that it's people of a very specific political leaning that have done it etc.

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by TVC15 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:48 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Nothing as yet, that's what I keep on saying.
He's provided zero proof in public that he was attacked by right wingers, but he's told all and sundry that he was.

In the current political environment he's either telling the truth, which he might well be, or looking to stoke political flames a bit.
Either way none of us know and that's why I've queried that lack of CCTV, phone clips etc of the attack.
There's nothing as yet, but for someone who's clearly in the public eye it's a bit odd that nothings been released in an effort to track down the alleged attackers.

Some posters on here usually demand proof when allegations are made, but in this instance not many seem that bothered about proof of the allegations.

Also if there is an ongoing investigation he shouldn't be sat there telling the world it's right wingers, unless he can actually back that up, because he's not helping the investigation.
I've no issue with him telling people that he's been subjected to a kicking and appealing for witnesses, the issue is, and always has been, his declaration that it's people of a very specific political leaning that have done it etc.
“In one ear and out t’other”

For the 3rd time you do not know what evidence he has provided of the attack. Why do you keep on insisting he has provided nothing when you have not got a clue whether he has.
That’s exactly like me making up something that it’s all been captured on video and the attackers had Nazi uniforms on and were heard to be saying “take that you dirty communist”

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Ok fine, he's telling the truth and spouting off about it in the media is perfectly fine and we should all believe it without seeing any proof and it won't harm an ongoing investigation with what he's doing...


That keep you happy?

If not, let me know and I'll reword it for you until it's acceptable :roll:

GodIsADeeJay81
Posts: 14566
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:55 am
Been Liked: 3435 times
Has Liked: 6339 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:58 pm

It's also fairly certain that if a right winger had made the allegation of an attack by left wingers in the same manner numerous people on here wouldn't believe it without proof that they could see.

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: Owen Jones assaulted

Post by TVC15 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:05 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Ok fine, he's telling the truth and spouting off about it in the media is perfectly fine and we should all believe it without seeing any proof and it won't harm an ongoing investigation with what he's doing...


That keep you happy?

If not, let me know and I'll reword it for you until it's acceptable :roll:
Absolutely thick as mince
I’ve already said that I have not expressed an opinion on what happened. And the reason I haven’t is because I don’t know what happened.

Eh but you crack on making sh-it up.

Post Reply