Owen Jones assaulted

[android]

Ringo, I hate to say this but your contributions to this discussion have been very poor. I know the thread has moved away quite a distance from the original topic, but the question of the distinction or identity between socialist and communist ideals is an important one that has both historical and contemporary relevance. Your contributions suggest that you have little understanding of this issue and my advice would be that when you don't have knowledge or understanding of a subject you keep quiet.

This is an important issue because of the accusations of 'Marxism' that are being thrown at the Labour Party because it is more socialist leaning than in the recent past. Always it seems, such slurs (if that is what they are) are not supported by reasoned arguments, and your comments here fall into that category.

If you do support the view that socialism and communism are essentially indistinguishable then please present your arguments to show why you feel this is a valid position. I would be genuinely interested to listen to those arguments and reflect on them. Otherwise, your silly remarks about monkeys and bananas show you up in a very poor light.

Your paragraph of substance above (2nd para) is curious Erasmus (especially in a post which is mainly having a pop at Ringo for a lack of understanding in your eyes).

Are you really unaware that our Shadow Chancellor is a Marxist? This is not a slur or accusation, as you suggest, it is a fact. He used to be proud of it and has boasted of it as recently as 2016 (presumably without realising he was being recorded). Of course he is now coy about it at times, as he is desperate to be elected. Are you also unaware that one of Corbyn's closest advisers (Murray) is a Communist? Milne is also probably a Communist but perhaps he has been too clever to be tagged. There is little mystery here. The far left takeover of the Labour Party has not been invented by the Daily Mail (or Murdoch or whoever - insert your demon of choice).

Your post 208 was much better when you observed that "Marxists are not and were not socialists, they were using socialism as a first stage towards communism." Worth bearing in mind for would be Labour voters.

[Cleveleys_claret]

Surely the police know who the attackers were by now. They were in the same bar and as stated by the owner they will be on the CCTV. Surely Owen has identified his attackers from that footage which he will have been asked to watch by the police to identify his attackers. If the police didnt know who the attackers were they would have released footage by now and appealed for help

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo, I hate to say this but your contributions to this discussion have been very poor. I know the thread has moved away quite a distance from the original topic, but the question of the distinction or identity between socialist and communist ideals is an important one that has both historical and contemporary relevance. Your contributions suggest that you have little understanding of this issue and my advice would be that when you don't have knowledge or understanding of a subject you keep quiet.

This is an important issue because of the accusations of 'Marxism' that are being thrown at the Labour Party because it is more socialist leaning than in the recent past. Always it seems, such slurs (if that is what they are) are not supported by reasoned arguments, and your comments here fall into that category.

If you do support the view that socialism and communism are essentially indistinguishable then please present your arguments to show why you feel this is a valid position. I would be genuinely interested to listen to those arguments and reflect on them. Otherwise, your silly remarks about monkeys and bananas show you up in a very poor light.

There isn't a single thing I could say that would change your mind. Nor anythimg you could say, would change mine. But at least I'm honest about it.

I'll save us both the myther.

One man's "silly remarks" is another man's truth.

[BennyD]

Your paragraph of substance above (2nd para) is curious Erasmus (especially in a post which is mainly having a pop at Ringo for a lack of understanding in your eyes).

Are you really unaware that our Shadow Chancellor is a Marxist? This is not a slur or accusation, as you suggest, it is a fact. He used to be proud of it and has boasted of it as recently as 2016 (presumably without realising he was being recorded). Of course he is now coy about it at times, as he is desperate to be elected. Are you also unaware that one of Corbyn's closest advisers (Murray) is a Communist? Milne is also probably a Communist but perhaps he has been too clever to be tagged. There is little mystery here. The far left takeover of the Labour Party has not been invented by the Daily Mail (or Murdoch or whoever - insert your demon of choice).

Your post 208 was much better when you observed that "Marxists are not and were not socialists, they were using socialism as a first stage towards communism." Worth bearing in mind for would be Labour voters.

I’ve said all along that Corbyn is merely a vehicle of convenience to get Labour into power. Once there McDonnell, Watson, Murray et al will come to the fore to try and inflict the East German idyll on us because, for some warped reason, they think Albania was a great place to exist.

[Erasmus]

Ringo, that sounds a bit like avoiding a debate because you are unsure of your ground. But if you do have genuine reasons for thinking that communism and social democracy are non-different I would be interested to read them, not to be persuaded but just because I am interested in other people's ideas and how they are formed.

Android, I think you make an error in failing to discriminate properly between communism and social democracy. To do this you need to properly define what you regard as communism. It is of course quite possible to share some of Marx's ideas without being a communist. My definition of communism would be based on the arguments that Marx put forward. That is a belief in the inevitable fall of capitalism to be replaced first by state-enforced socialism and then by communism. This process is to be accelerated by communists through revolutionary rather than reformist means. In fact, for Marx reformism is antithetical to communism.

You then cite a number of individuals who you say are communists. I must admit I don't follow the Labour Party that closely, but if they are communists then they would have to be seeking an end to democracy and the installation of state-enforced socialism. Where you cite my earlier statements you refer to socialism being a step on the path to communism. This is certainly what I said but the error there is again failing to discriminate between state-enforced, totalitarian socialism and social democracy. If McDonnell, Milne, and Murray are seeking to overthrow the present system by revolutionary means they are certainly communists, but if they are seeking political and social change through democratic means they are social democrats and the difference is fundamental.

I just find this erroneous name calling such a counter-productive part of political debate. You may have noticed that I also rejected the assertion that Trump is fascist. I think he has quite strong racist tendencies and I think he finds democratic processes frustrating but until he actively seeks to subvert US democracy then he is not a fascist. Likewise as long as Corbyn etc show no sign of supporting the revolutionary overthrow of our democratic system they are left-wing social democrats not communists.

You might look at the history of Germany in the 1920s when the Social Democratic Party were extremely left-wing but were absolutely committed to the fledgling German democratic system. This was in contrast to the Nazis who were fascists and the German Communist Party who were totalitarian.

[Imploding Turtle]

Ringo, that sounds a bit like avoiding a debate because you are unsure of your ground. But if you do have genuine reasons for thinking that communism and social democracy are non-different I would be interested to read them, not to be persuaded but just because I am interested in other people's ideas and how they are formed.

Android, I think you make an error in failing to discriminate properly between communism and social democracy. To do this you need to properly define what you regard as communism. It is of course quite possible to share some of Marx's ideas without being a communist. My definition of communism would be based on the arguments that Marx put forward. That is a belief in the inevitable fall of capitalism to be replaced first by state-enforced socialism and then by communism. This process is to be accelerated by communists through revolutionary rather than reformist means. In fact, for Marx reformism is antithetical to communism.

You then cite a number of individuals who you say are communists. I must admit I don't follow the Labour Party that closely, but if they are communists then they would have to be seeking an end to democracy and the installation of state-enforced socialism. Where you cite my earlier statements you refer to socialism being a step on the path to communism. This is certainly what I said but the error there is again failing to discriminate between state-enforced, totalitarian socialism and social democracy. If McDonnell, Milne, and Murray are seeking to overthrow the present system by revolutionary means they are certainly communists, but if they are seeking political and social change through democratic means they are social democrats and the difference is fundamental.

I just find this erroneous name calling such a counter-productive part of political debate. You may have noticed that I also rejected the assertion that Trump is fascist. I think he has quite strong racist tendencies and I think he finds democratic processes frustrating but until he actively seeks to subvert US democracy then he is not a fascist. Likewise as long as Corbyn etc show no sign of supporting the revolutionary overthrow of our democratic system they are left-wing social democrats not communists.

You might look at the history of Germany in the 1920s when the Social Democratic Party were extremely left-wing but were absolutely committed to the fledgling German democratic system. This was in contrast to the Nazis who were fascists and the German Communist Party who were totalitarian.

The only issue i take with this post is that Trump is the head of a political party in the US that IS actively seeking to subvert US democracy using tactics such as voter suppression (voter ID laws targeting dem voters, gerrymandering, closing polling stations, etc) stripping away elected democrats' powers and abusive obstructionism.

[android]

Hi Erasmus - I am sorry that I am just not as interested in political theory as you (my old economics textbooks continue to gather dust). But I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

I thought that I had made myself clear about certain key figures in the Labour Party but evidently not. Mcdonnell is a Marxist because he has chosen to define himself this way (not me). Murray is a Communist because (until recruited by Corbyn) he was a long term member of the Communist Party and part of its executive (his choice not mine). I would be grateful if you could stop suggesting that these are accusations, slurs or erroneous name calling. If you could accept these simple facts then I would accept that your interest is genuine not feigned.

As for Corbyn himself, unlike Mcdonnell and Murray, he has not to my knowledge claimed the Marxist or Communist label. But I do find it informative that he has appointed the 3 Ms to key positions. His past behaviour is informative and things like his enduring fondness for the Soviet Union, East Germany and the Venuzuelean (revolutionary!) regime are informative. This is why I find it laughable when people point to the last Labour manifesto and say - look, it's not that left wing! Even Mcdonnell and Corbyn are not stupid enough to think Britain can go full commie on day one! I think Ringo gets this and he does not like it. I think IIBYW gets it and likes it - fair play to him. Others seems to look away from inconvenient facts and that does seem to be where you are at the moment, as indicated by your "not following the Labour Party too closely".

I totally agree with you (not for the first time) about erroneous name calling. I have always thought the hysteria around Trump is a tactical blunder and a gift to his fake news narrative. I have gone as far as saying Corbyn is "probably" an anti-Semite but even that makes me uncomfortable. He made a clear racist comment about British Jews and he has allowed anti-Semitism to fester but I think I have shied away from calling him a racist. He is of course in many ways a lifelong anti-racist and it is one of his very few strengths. He has a peculiar blind spot with antisemitism, which is very serious, but I don't want to write about all that again just now. Generally speaking, I think we agree that throwing the terms racist and fascist around here, there and everywhere helps no-one.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

3 men arrested for violent disorder and assault.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Strange statement from the police.

“A Met Police statement said that a man in his 30s was approached outside the Lexington pub in Pentonville Road at around 02:00 BST and assaulted by four male suspects.”

Have they not read this thread?

[thatdberight]

Strange statement from the police.

“A Met Police statement said that a man in his 30s was approached outside the Lexington pub in Pentonville Road at around 02:00 BST and assaulted by four male suspects.”

Have they not read this thread?

[Devils_Advocate]

But what about the CCTV????????

[GodIsADeeJay81]

But what about the CCTV????????

No need to release it now the Police have done their job and caught the attackers.

All that's left is to confirm their political leanings

[Devils_Advocate]

No need to release it now the Police have done their job and caught the attackers.

All that's left is to confirm their political leanings

Haha but if the CCTV shows the attackers knuckles scraping the floor that will confirm they were right wing nut jobs

[Imploding Turtle]

This is the deep state trying to discredit fascism!!!!11

[Erasmus]

Android, I don't want to pursue this debate too much further, not least because I am not a Corbyn supporter. To be honest, I detest the manner in which his supporters conduct themselves. I know the type well and the spite, bile and abuse they typically spout seem to me a complete betrayal of the socialist principles I have held all my life. These values are based on compassion, sympathy for the poor and good will to all. These truly socialist principles are being betrayed by the bitterness and hatred that seem to prevail amongst so many Corbyn sympathisers.

But on the other hand, I value accuracy in debate and I dislike value-laden terms being thrown around without proper consideration. I can see nothing to suggest that Corbyn is a communist, according the proper definition of 'communist', apart from the fact that a few of his associates once held communist values. That's not enough. I read that Mcdonnell said when Murray joined the Labour Party, 'He used to be a communist but we are converting people to democratic socialism.' Perhaps he was being dishonest, but democratic socialism is not communism, and if you are going to call democratic socialists communists then you will have to call me a communist as well.

I was a member of the Communist Party in the early 1970s and even then the International Socialist group regarded us in the CPGB as no longer being truly communist because we had become reformist rather than revolutionary. And they were right. We were called the Communist Party but we weren't really communists in the proper Marxist sense.

Needless to say, I am no longer a communist and I might be persuaded to point out the flaws in Marxist analysis that are readily perceivable. But like so many these days, you are not interested in political theory. I wish I hadn't written so much. My apologies.

[AndrewJB]

Hi Erasmus - I am sorry that I am just not as interested in political theory as you (my old economics textbooks continue to gather dust). But I do enjoy reading your thoughts.

I thought that I had made myself clear about certain key figures in the Labour Party but evidently not. Mcdonnell is a Marxist because he has chosen to define himself this way (not me). Murray is a Communist because (until recruited by Corbyn) he was a long term member of the Communist Party and part of its executive (his choice not mine). I would be grateful if you could stop suggesting that these are accusations, slurs or erroneous name calling. If you could accept these simple facts then I would accept that your interest is genuine not feigned.

As for Corbyn himself, unlike Mcdonnell and Murray, he has not to my knowledge claimed the Marxist or Communist label. But I do find it informative that he has appointed the 3 Ms to key positions. His past behaviour is informative and things like his enduring fondness for the Soviet Union, East Germany and the Venuzuelean (revolutionary!) regime are informative. This is why I find it laughable when people point to the last Labour manifesto and say - look, it's not that left wing! Even Mcdonnell and Corbyn are not stupid enough to think Britain can go full commie on day one! I think Ringo gets this and he does not like it. I think IIBYW gets it and likes it - fair play to him. Others seems to look away from inconvenient facts and that does seem to be where you are at the moment, as indicated by your "not following the Labour Party too closely".

I totally agree with you (not for the first time) about erroneous name calling. I have always thought the hysteria around Trump is a tactical blunder and a gift to his fake news narrative. I have gone as far as saying Corbyn is "probably" an anti-Semite but even that makes me uncomfortable. He made a clear racist comment about British Jews and he has allowed anti-Semitism to fester but I think I have shied away from calling him a racist. He is of course in many ways a lifelong anti-racist and it is one of his very few strengths. He has a peculiar blind spot with antisemitism, which is very serious, but I don't want to write about all that again just now. Generally speaking, I think we agree that throwing the terms racist and fascist around here, there and everywhere helps no-one.

Likewise the often contradictory hysteria around Corbyn has worked to his advantage in some respects. You could say; "as the right wing press sows, so shall it reap" (in younger people completely ignoring it).

I also hate the throwing around of extreme adjectives in politics, but I notice you don't exclude things like 'far left' or 'communist' when it comes to describing the Labour Party, which I think you described as being "taken over" by the far left. I don't see how you can paint all the hundreds of thousands of people who joined in that way. As for McDonnell and Milne, (and whoever else), the question; bullet or ballot box? is the determiner whether their espousal of marxism or communism is something dangerous to us.

When I was at university - just as the Berlin wall was coming down - reading Marx was seen as a great way to understand capitalism.

[John Johnson 1605]

Ringo, that sounds a bit like avoiding a debate because you are unsure of your ground. But if you do have genuine reasons for thinking that communism and social democracy are non-different I would be interested to read them, not to be persuaded but just because I am interested in other people's ideas and how they are formed.

Android, I think you make an error in failing to discriminate properly between communism and social democracy. To do this you need to properly define what you regard as communism. It is of course quite possible to share some of Marx's ideas without being a communist. My definition of communism would be based on the arguments that Marx put forward. That is a belief in the inevitable fall of capitalism to be replaced first by state-enforced socialism and then by communism. This process is to be accelerated by communists through revolutionary rather than reformist means. In fact, for Marx reformism is antithetical to communism.

You then cite a number of individuals who you say are communists. I must admit I don't follow the Labour Party that closely, but if they are communists then they would have to be seeking an end to democracy and the installation of state-enforced socialism. Where you cite my earlier statements you refer to socialism being a step on the path to communism. This is certainly what I said but the error there is again failing to discriminate between state-enforced, totalitarian socialism and social democracy. If McDonnell, Milne, and Murray are seeking to overthrow the present system by revolutionary means they are certainly communists, but if they are seeking political and social change through democratic means they are social democrats and the difference is fundamental.

I just find this erroneous name calling such a counter-productive part of political debate. You may have noticed that I also rejected the assertion that Trump is fascist. I think he has quite strong racist tendencies and I think he finds democratic processes frustrating but until he actively seeks to subvert US democracy then he is not a fascist. Likewise as long as Corbyn etc show no sign of supporting the revolutionary overthrow of our democratic system they are left-wing social democrats not communists.

You might look at the history of Germany in the 1920s when the Social Democratic Party were extremely left-wing but were absolutely committed to the fledgling German democratic system. This was in contrast to the Nazis who were fascists and the German Communist Party who were totalitarian.

Sir/Madam, you certainly know your stuff.

[Steve1956]

Hes on radio 2 now...hes a twatt.

[fidelcastro]

Hes on radio 2 now...hes a twatt.

I'll bet he can spell it though.

[Steve1956]

I'll bet he can spell it though.

I was avoiding the swear filter.

[morpheus2]

Are the culprits in jail yet?

Edit: I'm only asking as I see he's out of hospital now.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Are the culprits in jail yet?

Edit: I'm only asking as I see he's out of hospital now.

I'm still waiting to see what wing they play on tbh

[fidelcastro]

Three men charged.

I suppose it's still a whinging lefty, just making stuff up though, eh?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I assume we have to wait for the court case to confirm their political leanings and motive for the attack?

[Walton]

Healy has previous as a Chelsea hooligan

[Devils_Advocate]

Are the culprits in jail yet?

Edit: I'm only asking as I see he's out of hospital now.

I know the not knowing was keeping you awake at night so here you go. All pleaded guilty and are now awaiting sentencing

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... owen-jones

[Spike]

Classic case of speaking when he should be listening then looking for excuses afterwards me thinks

[yTib]

Classic case of speaking when he should be listening then looking for excuses afterwards me thinks

what an arsehole.

[morpheus2]

I know the not knowing was keeping you awake at night so here you go. All pleaded guilty and are now awaiting sentencing

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... owen-jones

Thanks for that, glad he's okay xx

[Devils_Advocate]

Thanks for that, glad he's okay xx

Eh who's okay??? we've known Owen was OK for sometime but you seemed concerned the villains were gonna avoid jail. Its still not certain they'll go down but at least you can relax now you know it was a real crime and justice will be served

[Millertime v1.7]

Still think Jones may have been the instigator in this with his acid tongue. His anti BBC agenda shows he's always at risk of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

[Devils_Advocate]

Write a song about it, he might even guest on the recorder for you if you ask nicely

[Walton]

I assume we have to wait for the court case to confirm their political leanings and motive for the attack?

No surprises to find out from the court case that one has a horde of far right insignia

[Walton]

Screenshot_20200117_191121.jpg (615.12 KiB) Viewed 3675 times

It's pretty funny going through the pages of this thread and the various comments on it, in light of the facts to have come out in this case for aggravated assault.

[fidelcastro]

Screenshot_20200117_191121.jpg

It's pretty funny going through the pages of this thread and the various comments on it, in light of the facts to have come out in this case for aggravated assault.

Indeed. Those comments stating that Jones would've instigated the incident, look particularly stupid.

[thatdberight]

Screenshot_20200117_191121.jpg

It's pretty funny going through the pages of this thread and the various comments on it, in light of the facts to have come out in this case for aggravated assault.

Well, it was always the most likely explanation.

[claret2018]

The attacker’s barrister tried to argue that the collection of Nazi memorabilia was consistent with being a Chelsea fan, and wasn’t actually anything to do with him being a far right thug.

LOL

[Bordeauxclaret]

This thread really did have everything. A depressing yet hilarious read.

I really miss Sidneys epic whataboutary. Oh well, Twitters gain I suppose.

[aggi]

Jesus, this thread was a cesspool. Multiple posters celebrating someone being assaulted and suggesting he deserved it.

Agreeing with the guy with nazi memorabilia is never a good look.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53532559

[JohnMcGreal]

Healy had at least nine convictions relating to football hooliganism stretching back to 1998. A search of his property after his arrest revealed a collection of far-right hooligan memorabilia, loosely connected with the Chelsea Youth Firm.

McGhee, prosecuting, said Healy possessed “a greeting card, which bore Nazi far-right extremist terror symbols, including those associated with the far-right Combat 18 group, one of whose tenets is ‘kill all queers’”.

Also discovered was a Nazi SS flag bearing a “totenkopf” death’s head skull symbol plus “a number of pins of badges”, including a circular pin badge with the “lead the way” and “whatever it takes” motto of Combat 18 and a badge that said “Chelsea FC no asylum seekers”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... owen-jones

[Buxtonclaret]

This thread really did have everything. A depressing yet hilarious read.

I really miss Sidneys epic whataboutary. Oh well, Twitters gain I suppose.

Did Sid ever say why he was leaving?

[Bfcboyo]

Was it ever proved he deserved it?

[Quickenthetempo]

Did Sid ever say why he was leaving?

He posts under a different name these days

[Rileybobs]

Was it ever proved he deserved it?

Does a “a frenzied and wholly unprovoked attack” sound like he deserved it?

[Buxtonclaret]

He posts under a different name these days

Ah right...

[Devils_Advocate]

On the back of this experience Jones has written what I think is a really good piece on far right extremism and how the current media, politics and culture of our society has helped fuel it and continues to do so.

As an added bonus you can clearly see what Jones is talking about by looking back at the some of the opinions, views and attitudes exhibited by the usual suspects on this thread.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1286 ... 08672.html

[TVC15]

Just had a quick read through the thread again.
How depressing.
A real microcosm of this board.

[Bordeauxclaret]

“Sandal wearers” got an early outing in the thread.

Never lets us down.

Horrendous thread.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Depressing reading some of the early comments on this thread. A long way to go!

[aggi]

On the back of this experience Jones has written what I think is a really good piece on far right extremism and how the current media, politics and culture of our society has helped fuel it and continues to do so.

As an added bonus you can clearly see what Jones is talking about by looking back at the some of the opinions, views and attitudes exhibited by the usual suspects on this thread.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1286 ... 08672.html

I remember the Ash Sarkar thing, it was bizarre. As he said, plenty of people attempting to generally pretend they were moderates jumped on it.