How long will we accept this?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:38 pm

jrgbfc wrote:I don't particularly enjoy watching the football we play under Dyche no, but if it's getting results it's tolerable.

Surely even you cant deny we played very well at Wolves, with some very enjoyable football.

As good as most teams will play at Wolves this season.

If you cant enjoy that there really is no hope for you.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:40 pm

Spijed wrote:Watford got the the FA cup final, got destroyed 6-0 and look at them now

Can I just check that youre worried about us getting to the FA Cup Final because you think it will make us be bottom of the Premier League table after 3 games the following season.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:47 pm

I’m a Burnley fan and I want a cup run.

Is it too much to ask for Sean Dyche to take the League Cup a bit more seriously? Only beating lower league opposition 3 times out of 8 in this competition is embarrassing.

The trophy, for a club like us is there for the taking. Do the players want it enough? None of those on the field tonight didn’t.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:50 pm

SGr wrote:Heaton was in goal at Burton Albion last year, wasn’t he? Hart directly responsible for one goal, not for the other two, and not for our second half collapse overall.

Yep. And against lincoln. And pope at accy

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:51 pm

Spijed wrote:Watford got the the FA cup final, got destroyed 6-0 and look at them now

Yep, still in the premier league

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:51 pm

BennyD wrote:It used to be, when there wasn’t £100m plus on the line. Winning the league cup won’t give us financial security, whereas staying in the Prem helps a lot. It is what it is.

If we are only bothered about the money don’t be surprised if we only attract players who are too.

Tonight sounds like every other cup performance under Dyche. Don’t worry lads. You will still get your money.

Cubanclaret · Post by **Cubanclaret** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:51 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:That XI should have been good enough to beat a League One team

We did have 5 England internationals in after all...

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:03 pm

Spijed wrote:And if we beat Liverpool with a fantastic performance all will be forgiven

For you. Nothing to forgive for me. Nobody made me go for 20 years. Nobody's stopping me now. A win against Liverpool or otherwise won't make any difference.

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:05 pm

Talk Sport had an interview this morning with SD where he said he took all cups seriously
The fact that we made 10 changes from Wolves didn't bother me as I wanted to see these so called fringe players given their chance.
If SD really wants to do well in cups how does that explain why, with 15 mins left and 1-3 down, he decides the only way to get back into the game is to change the right back ?

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:16 pm

The problem / beauty with games like tonight is, if you lose, it breeds resentment, recriminations and grumblings throughout the whole club. Win them and it breeds confidence, good cheer and positive feelings throughout the club.
These type of games are there for the taking if we really wanted them and would generate more determination from the players who are participating in a successful cup run.

7decades · Post by **7decades** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Next time we are drawn at home to a lower team I'll be surprised if we have a home gate of more than 500

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:34 pm

Nonayforever wrote: Win them and it breeds confidence, good cheer and positive feelings throughout the club.

So how on earth are we managing to breed confidence in the league then?

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:36 pm

It’s the “Caribou” Cup ffs. Nobody even cares about the FA Cup anymore, let alone this tin-pot trophy.

I’d be happy to play the U18s in all Cup competitions to get them out of the way in the first round.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:07 am

claret2018 wrote:It’s the “Caribou” Cup ffs. Nobody even cares about the FA Cup anymore, let alone this tin-pot trophy.

I’d be happy to play the U18s in all Cup competitions to get them out of the way in the first round.

So no one cared against Spurs in 2009? Capital Punishment and all that. I don’t think 3,000 were on against Fulham

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:47 am

claptrappers_union wrote:The trophy, for a club like us is there for the taking. Do the players want it enough? None of those on the field tonight didn’t.

The last six seasons have been won by City four times and Chelsea and United.

We should be doing better against the teams we face no doubt, but for the taking?

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:02 am

Unfortunately, you saw the same attitude to FA Cup matches last season with those teams at the top of the Championship table and in the play off places getting knocked out in the early rounds by lower tier sides. They were all hailed as "major shocks" by the media but in reality they were clubs that had prioritised getting back into the Premier League above all else.

Remember the back page headlines when Sheffield United lost at home to Barnet but the PL was the holy grail.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:11 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:
But there will come a time where taking one of these cups seriously will be a must.

And when we reach that time, then what?

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:13 am

claptrappers_union wrote:So no one cared against Spurs in 2009? Capital Punishment and all that. I don’t think 3,000 were on against Fulham

We had under 4,000 on against QPR in the FA Cup in the same season. Using a semi final is hardly a fair comparison.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:23 am

"The trophy, for a club like ours is there for the taking"

The past 15 finals have been won by a member of the PL so called Elite Clubs for every season bar 2 when Birmingham and Swansea were successful. To say that the cup is "there for the taking" is stretching things a bit.

Although it was always referred to as the EFL Cup it has never been won by a member of the EFL.

Top Claret · Post by **Top Claret** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:30 am

claretdj wrote:Wow, so staying up every season & winning nothing is all you want every season? football is about winning trophys, not just surviving every season..

We have had 6 out of the last 10 years playing in the greatest competion in the world of football and all you are bothered about are tin pot cup competitions

Get real and smell the coffee ffs

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:31 am

You dont have to win the cup for it to be a success and worth putting in a bit more prep and intensity in the early rounds. To get to a final or even get through to the Semi's would see some real excitement build and would be brilliant occasions in themselves.

Posters still talk about the Newcastle semi-final as they do with Liverpool and Spurs League Cup semi-finals and whilst there's no guarantee we could even reach a semi i think there is scope for putting in more effort to give us a better chance without damaging any league form

agreenwood · Post by **agreenwood** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:31 am

Spijed wrote:Watford got the the FA cup final, got destroyed 6-0 and look at them now

Spidjey-widgey-woo just loves a bit of whataboutery.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:32 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Can I just check that youre worried about us getting to the FA Cup Final because you think it will make us be bottom of the Premier League table after 3 games the following season.

Put it this way, Watford getting to the FA Cup final last season won't be seen as a great achievement, it'll always now be seen as a bit of an embarrassment for them, and the possible damage thereafter.

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:37 am

Spijed wrote:Put it this way, Watford getting to the FA Cup final last season won't be seen as a great achievement, it'll always now be seen as a bit of an embarrassment for them, and the possible damage thereafter.

Wrong one of my best friends from Uni married a lad from Watford whose a season ticket holder and he was all over social media with how excited him and the town was and what a special day it was.

In 10 years time they wont be recalling it as an embarrassing defeat but they will be talking about the games that got them there, the Semi and the occasion of watching Watford in an FA Cup final.

As for the bit about it causing them damage in the future you need to stop being so melodramatic about things its not a good look

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:45 am

I accept this. I certainly don't blame Dyche like a lot of pricks on here.
Regardless of the opposition, the team last night was the strongest reserve team i can remember ever at Burnley. Three current internationals, an England Under 20 international and six ex internationals including no less than FIVE players capped by England.
We should be beating Blunderland comfortably but we didn't due to individual errors and a worrying lack of heart and fight. Dyche called it in his post match interview, the players had a perfect opportunity to show Dyche why they should be first team starters, they failed.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:53 am

Don’t understand the comparisons to 2009 at all.
Of course 2009 was a very enjoyable experience but we were struggling to make the play offs and playing well in the cups was key to our confidence and definitely helped our players in the league.
10 years later as a club we are in a completely different position. Like the vast majority of clubs (including those in the championship and even league one) we choose to prioritise the league over the cups.
On paper yes that team and others before it should have beaten Sunderland, Burton, Lincoln etc but it’s not that simple for players who are regularly not picked in the league to just turn up and play to their full potential or anywhere near it - knowing however well they play they are going to be back on the bench (or not even that).
The teams we are playing may also make changes but just like we did in 2009 they are are a lot more up for the games and to cause a shock.
We were not the only “big” teams that Lincoln and Burton beat on the way to quarter and semi finals.

As for the usual suspects saying they can just about tolerate finishing 17th and Dyche’s style of football etc - that is of course their prerogative / opinion. My guess is that whatever success we have as a club a lot of these posters will never be happy watching Burnley and will have totally unrealistic expectations.
Personally i’d rather enjoy it for what it is - for me the most successful period in my 40 years of watching. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect or I wouldn’t love a great cup run.....but when has supporting Burnley (or 99% of clubs) ever been perfect ?

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:56 am

jojomk1 wrote:Talk Sport had an interview this morning with SD where he said he took all cups seriously
The fact that we made 10 changes from Wolves didn't bother me as I wanted to see these so called fringe players given their chance.
If SD really wants to do well in cups how does that explain why, with 15 mins left and 1-3 down, he decides the only way to get back into the game is to change the right back ?

If he says he takes cups seriously that's even more worrying than last nights result!

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:57 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:If he says he takes cups seriously that's even more worrying than last nights result!

He's never going to say in public that he doesn't!

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:00 am

Spijed wrote:He's never going to say in public that he doesn't!

Well with the record he has he would be better saying he doesnt!

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:25 am

From Sheff United supporters after their match against Rovers:

"After Wilder’s post match ranting about effort being the minimum I thought we could have at least expected a committed performance from players pushing to get in the side. What we actually got was a half arsed performance where players seemed more bothered about avoiding injury than anything else. Tonight has made a mockery of those calling for Besic in for Lundstram and Jags in for Bash. The only players to come away with any credit should be Mousset, Moore and perhaps Ravel. Keiran Freeman had one of his worst performances ever he looked disinterested and the rumours about his body fat certainly look believable he was knackered after 60 mins of not doing a lot. Don’t let the score line paper over the cracks that second XI looks way off the pace. Still it’s made picking Saturdays team easier. We need hope to god JOC and Baldock don’t pick up any injuries as we will be struggle."

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:40 am

jojomk1 wrote:Talk Sport had an interview this morning with SD where he said he took all cups seriously
The fact that we made 10 changes from Wolves didn't bother me as I wanted to see these so called fringe players given their chance.
If SD really wants to do well in cups how does that explain why, with 15 mins left and 1-3 down, he decides the only way to get back into the game is to change the right back ?

Why are you mentioning only the last 15 minutes ?
We were 3-1 down after 50 minutes and he brought our £15m centre forward on after 69 minutes to try and get us back in the game.
He clearly brought Lowts on later for his crossing ability given the forwards we had on the pitch and Lennon going off.
We played the last 25 minutes of the game with 3 centre forwards on the pitch and a very attacking midfield and pushing up our full backs.
Looking at the bench we had what else would have you done to “get back into the game” ?

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:17 am

It took 19 minutes to get our big centre forward on after we went 3-1 down. A CF who dominates lower league teams due to his style. Only 21 minutes left at that point when it could have been 40.

He also changed the formation instead of simply changing personnel first, then formation later. That would never have happened in the league.

It struck me as formation practice for the Premier League, not a genuine attempt to win the game. It was spineless and pathetic from Dyche, as usual, and in truth probably by the board too for condoning this overly pragmatic and boring approach to league survival.

Braindead · Post by **Braindead** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:29 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:It took 19 minutes to get our big centre forward on after we went 3-1 down. A CF who dominates lower league teams due to his style. Only 21 minutes left at that point when it could have been 40.

He also changed the formation instead of simply changing personnel first, then formation later. That would never have happened in the league.

It struck me as formation practice for the Premier League, not a genuine attempt to win the game. It was spineless and pathetic from Dyche, as usual, and in truth probably by the board too for condoning this overly pragmatic and boring approach to league survival.

Bellendery of the highest order.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:31 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:It took 19 minutes to get our big centre forward on after we went 3-1 down. A CF who dominates lower league teams due to his style. Only 21 minutes left at that point when it could have been 40.

He also changed the formation instead of simply changing personnel first, then formation later. That would never have happened in the league.

It struck me as formation practice for the Premier League, not a genuine attempt to win the game. It was spineless and pathetic from Dyche, as usual, and in truth probably by the board too for condoning this overly pragmatic and boring approach to league survival.

On the plus side it is 1 less chance of qualifying for european football. After risking your life last season to attend a game you should be happy.

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:06 pm

Top Claret wrote:...playing in the greatest competion in the world of football...

Hook, line & sinker.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:10 pm

3 shots on target the whole game, that's the stat I've seen, if so, Its not good enough on the night. Learn from it and move on to the BIG game Saturday.

Texanclaret16 · Post by **Texanclaret16** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:31 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:That XI should have been good enough to beat a League One team

I agree so don’t think it’s all on SD every club struggles at the start of this competition. Everton played a full strength team vs Lincoln who rested players and nearly got beat. Every year top teams go out early sad it seems to be us every year though.

This was a chance for the 10 off the 11 (McNeil if I am right being the only starter last night from the previous games) on the pitch to put down a marker for a starting place and in all fairness they blew it.

On the whole I will accept this if our aim is for a top 10 finish as that’s still progress.

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:59 pm

Barry_Chuckle wrote:3 shots on target the whole game, that's the stat I've seen, if so, Its not good enough on the night. Learn from it and move on to the BIG game Saturday.

I was at Newcastle v Leicester and there were only 3 shots on target in total from 2 PL teams.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:10 pm

Since the beginning of the 13/14 season we've played 6 LC fixtures and 11 FA gup games including replays. We've lost all LC games, lost 6 FA cup games, drawn 2 FA cup games and won 3 FA cup games. Let's look at results in the games immediately following these cup ties. In the interest of brevity I shan't detail every result but they're on here and the club site should you wish to check.

Please excuse the rounding errors.

Games after League cup ties (6 games in total): 1 win (16.6%), 4 draws (66.6%), 1 defeat (16.6%)
Games after FA cup ties (11 games in total inc. replays): 5 wins (45.45%), 3 draws (27.27%), 3 defeats (27.27%)

Total W/D/L percentage in league games immediately following all domestic cup games since 13/14 is a follows:

Win: 35.29%
Draw: 41.17%
Loss: 23.52 %

Considering the sustained (relatively speaking) success over the last 6 years it's foolish to disregard the manager's judgement on squad selection (often wholesale change) wholly. Whether you like it or not, whether you love or hate modern football, whether you think it's worth playing with fire with the league starters and whether it's worth taking a risk with our league position, the stats do back him up. We're getting a result in over three quarters of all league ties following a cup game. That's good value to me, and worth it for cup competitions we're never realistically going to win.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:24 pm

For the curious, (taken as read that these number were arrived at over multiple seasons and leagues and there's no coefficient involved to balance the strength of the opposition or number of changes made to the squad etc, but whatever, let's have some fun), those percentages extrapolated over a 38 game league season give us 13 wins, 16 draws, and 9 defeats: 55 points: 1 point more than we had when we finished 7th.

(edit-yes, I'm aware this is what sucking the life out of football looks like)

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:52 pm

Spiral wrote:Since the beginning of the 13/14 season we've played 6 LC fixtures and 11 FA gup games including replays. We've lost all LC games, lost 6 FA cup games, drawn 2 FA cup games and won 3 FA cup games. Let's look at results in the games immediately following these cup ties. In the interest of brevity I shan't detail every result but they're on here and the club site should you wish to check.

Please excuse the rounding errors.

Games after League cup ties (6 games in total): 1 win (16.6%), 4 draws (66.6%), 1 defeat (16.6%)
Games after FA cup ties (11 games in total inc. replays): 5 wins (45.45%), 3 draws (27.27%), 3 defeats (27.27%)

Total W/D/L percentage in league games immediately following all domestic cup games since 13/14 is a follows:

Win: 35.29%
Draw: 41.17%
Loss: 23.52 %

Considering the sustained (relatively speaking) success over the last 6 years it's foolish to disregard the manager's judgement on squad selection (often wholesale change) wholly. Whether you like it or not, whether you love or hate modern football, whether you think it's worth playing with fire with the league starters and whether it's worth taking a risk with our league position, the stats do back him up. We're getting a result in over three quarters of all league ties following a cup game. That's good value to me, and worth it for cup competitions we're never realistically going to win.

In 13/14 didnt we win 3 League Cup ties and get to the 4th Round?

Also we've won 5 out of 6 league games following winning a cup match so sounds to me we should try and win a bit more often

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:44 pm

Absolutely f.ucked it. For some reason when I was working this out on a spreadsheet I missed PNE and Forest in 13/14. We won both subsequent games so it bumps the win % up a little higher.

I was looking at games following cup games without consideration for the cup result itself so perhaps there's a pattern that shows us following a win with another win, perhaps this could be attributed to form etc, but I'm not sure, I haven't worked that out! My point was to illustrate how Dyche's policy of making wholesale changes in virtually every cup game seems to be bearing fruit when we revert back to the first XI in the league.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:53 pm

Revised total W/D/L record:

W: 42%
D: 37%
L: 21%

Edit-looking at the match report for the Forest game it looks a decent side with only a few changes to the first XI of that season. But Treacy, Edgar, Stanislas and Long all started and neither Jones nor Duff were in the squad. Arfield played for 7 minutes. Even with the smallest squad Dyche ever had we made changes.

chipbutty · Post by **chipbutty** » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:17 pm

BFC88 wrote:Didn't go on tonight. If the club can't be bothered then neither can I. Still mentally scarred from the shambolic displays against Lincoln and Accy.

How do you know if the club are bothered before you go on?? Games are games to me regardless of the competition, we cannot get arrogant expecting to wipe the floor with lower league opposition

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:35 am

chipbutty wrote:How do you know if the club are bothered before you go on?? Games are games to me regardless of the competition, we cannot get arrogant expecting to wipe the floor with lower league opposition

Try telling that to Dyche. He's the one making 10 changes.

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:03 am

Dyche been on the radio saying the fans aren't bothered about the cup , and points to the attendance as proof.
I think it needs pointing out to him that the attendance is low because he is putting on an overpriced training session for the reserve team.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:07 am

Nonayforever wrote:Dyche been on the radio saying the fans aren't bothered about the cup , and points to the attendance as proof.
I think it needs pointing out to him that the attendance is low because he is putting on an overpriced training session for the reserve team.

When did he say that on the radio ?
Have you got a link ?
If indeed he did it’s an ill thought out comment.
If he said that many fans are less bothered about the cups than the premier league that is a very different comment

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:11 am

jrgbfc wrote:Try telling that to Dyche. He's the one making 10 changes.

Does that mean most of the clubs entering the cup are also not bothered ?
Oh and btw it was 9 changes ! (just one more than Sunderland I think)

Nonayforever · Post by **Nonayforever** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:14 am

TVC15 wrote:When did he say that on the radio ?
Have you got a link ?
If indeed he did it’s an ill thought out comment.
If he said that many fans are less bothered about the cups than the premier league that is a very different comment

It was an interview I heard this morning on the way to work.
I would like to hear it again if anyone had a link because the more I think about it the more annoyed I am getting.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:16 am

Nonayforever wrote:Dyche been on the radio saying the fans aren't bothered about the cup , and points to the attendance as proof.
I think it needs pointing out to him that the attendance is low because he is putting on an overpriced training session for the reserve team.

That's the problem though. Fans will vote with their feet and it gives Dyche the perfect excuse to continue disregarding the cups.