Who's fault was tonight's shameful display?

Firstly you have to look at Dyche's record in cup games. Its quite embarrassing look no further than Lincoln. Does he take them seriously? His team selection suggests that he doesn't see the cups anywhere near as important and the league which is fair enough with The money it brings in but we should have a squad to cope with a decent cup run without hindering our league performance.
Now look at the team he put out tonight all players you would expect to step into our first 11 and do a job. You would imagine these players would want to prove they are too good to be sat on the bench and at least show what they are capable of. Is that unfair? This was a full switch bar McNeil from our league starting 11 has Dyche just thrown them together (can't imagine so) and sent them out expecting them to play what type of game. We should be controlling these games however it seems that when we are given the initiative and opportunity to have the ball and play some football we struggle. I don't know why this is as we do play some nice football in league games even though we see less of the ball.

I feel this is a problem Dyche needs to address and because of his record in cups the majority of the blame lies at his door but the players had an opportunity to show him what they can Bring to the first team and failed to make Saturdays team selection a difficult one.

Hopefully Saturday will restore some pride if not wit a result a performance to be proud of UTC.

Both.

We are always awful when we make wholesale changes.

As a club we clearly have no interest in the cup competitions, the main aim is the league.

I can understand why people are annoyed at that but it’s certainly the way it is no matter what message we try to put out.

If Vydra had of scored from 4 yards out with no one in front of him tonight would have been a different story. Dyche cant control how the players play. You look at the calibre of player out there for us tonight and the cost at bringing some of them to the club. Well no wonder they arent first teamers

Cleveleys_claret wrote:If Vydra had of scored from 4 yards out with no one in front of him tonight would have been a different story. Dyche cant control how the players play. You look at the calibre of player out there for us tonight and the cost at bringing some of them to the club. Well no wonder they arent first teamers

So we'd have lost 2-3

It doesnt work like that. If it had gone in they would have had to of kicked off and not took a goal kick and what happened after would have been different. Do you not understand how time works?

Might be worth a break from the board for a few days.

Don’t care who’s fault it is but the premier league is top priority and if backups are not good enough to beat league one sides the squad is not as good as it looks on paper. That said, you can’t just turn up with players that have not played together and expect them to gel perfectly. There is no reason that the backup team can not have been involved in 1 or 2 behind closed doors games over the last few weeks to prepare for this game.

Apparently weve been beaten at the first hurdle 5 of the last 6 seasons ( according to sky ). That cant be a coincidence surely.

Must also add I'm sure it's almost always been to a lower league side.

Not making excuses, but it cant be healthy only having 1 days worth of training/preparation either.
When exactly did Sean get back up north this week Tuesday or today?

Could have easily gone the other way tonight. We should have been 2 or 3 up and were playing well. What disappointed me most was the poor reaction after going behind. We started panicking and stopped playing football. Seen us struggle to break poor teams down too many times and it's so frustrating. Dyche doesn't seem to be able to change the team effectively in situations like that.

Cleveleys_claret wrote:It doesnt work like that. If it had gone in they would have had to of kicked off and not took a goal kick and what happened after would have been different. Do you not understand how time works?

So we could have lost 2-6 then, you never know.
All you can judge on is exactly what happened, none of this "it would have been different if Vydra had scored". it would, but not necessarily a favorably one.

It can't be that difficult to work out that the core starting eleven are clearly better suited with the amount of time they spend working together. The rest of the team don't know quite how to work together.

We have this 'together' mantra but it doesn't show when we make big changes.

A team is more than the 18 each week but we seem to be short of ideas somewhere.

It clearly works because look at our success so I guess it's a moot moan but it's still something to address or analyse.

Dyche has just come out and said it's the players. According to SD the reason they are not in the team is because they couldn't be arsed in the second half. Quite unusual for him and he sounded genuinely cheesed off.

Played some really good stuff in the first half, good interplay between our midfielders but the performance deteriorated alarmingly second half.

Bardsley, Long and Hart in particular didn't do themselves any favours.

Lennon looked really sharp tonight.

Dyche's post match comments seem to indicate that he's putting the blame on the players

Was it Dyche or the players who didn't do their jobs for the corner?
That goal was awful to concede. The writing was on the wall before the corner was taken.
Sunderland players must have been shocked at the amount of space they had.
The lads in the Sunderland dugout were certainly celebrating another gift of a goal.

Watching highlights on Quest, and they said that Dyche had said he felt he has the squad to do well in the cup this season.. really.. really?
Unless he felt our 2nd string was good enough and that was what he meant?

We had better cup runs when we were a average/rubbish Championship team under Ternent and Cotterill.. and that one year under Judas Coyle which give us a great momentum boost towards promotion. So maybe doing well in the Cups would be a bad omen for us (apart from that one Coyle season)

Listen, Dyche is the man for the job, he has worked wonders at our club and long may he remain but...someone, somewhere needs to tell him to man up for cup games. His record is atrocious, his attitude to them stinks. League cup, FA cup and last season Europe, he just isn’t interested in going for something we could actually win. A cup run could relieve us of the monotonous grind of PL survival but hey why would we want to win something that might get us into Europe again, heaven forbid that should happen. As fans we should vote with our feet and stop hoping against hope that Dyche will actually put out a team to win a cup match. Don’t buy tickets and stay away from cup games, maybe playing at home in front of an empty stadium might, MIGHT, cause a re-think, but I doubt it.

Seriously did anyone on this site actually believe we were going to progress tonight? Tonight there were good players out there, most of whom can and have stepped seamlessly into the first team and been fine, but to sling a load of players who have done nothing more than train together into a game and expect them to perform is asking far too much. 10 changes for a cup game is unacceptable on any level and is an insult to fans paying hard earned money.

DYCHE IS TO BLAME TONIGHT..

houseboy wrote:Listen, Dyche is the man for the job, he has worked wonders at our club and long may he remain but...someone, somewhere needs to tell him to man up for cup games. His record is atrocious, his attitude to them stinks. League cup, FA cup and last season Europe, he just isn’t interested in going for something we could actually win. A cup run could relieve us of the monotonous grind of PL survival but hey why would we want to win something that might get us into Europe again, heaven forbid that should happen. As fans we should vote with our feet and stop hoping against hope that Dyche will actually put out a team to win a cup match. Don’t buy tickets and stay away from cup games, maybe playing at home in front of an empty stadium might, MIGHT, cause a re-think, but I doubt it.

Seriously did anyone on this site actually believe we were going to progress tonight? Tonight there were good players out there, most of whom can and have stepped seamlessly into the first team and been fine, but to sling a load of players who have done nothing more than train together into a game and expect them to perform is asking far too much. 10 changes for a cup game is unacceptable on any level and is an insult to fans paying hard earned money.

DYCHE IS TO BLAME TONIGHT..

I love Burnley , but was more than happy to avoid this sorry excuse for a football competition.
I have endured many seasons of ***,t but to see us in the highest division is quite a reward for me.
I think your criticism is both harsh and misplaced.

Wile E Coyote wrote:I love Burnley , but was more than happy to avoid this sorry excuse for a football competition.
I have endured many seasons of ***,t but to see us in the highest division is quite a reward for me.
I think your criticism is both harsh and misplaced.

No it isn’t bud. People pay good money to see games and don’t (or shouldn’t) expect to watch the reserves. I get a little tired of all this ‘PL at all costs’ rubbish. We are never going to win it and survival is all we can expect, I would genuinely take relegation if we could win the FA cup and get another trophy. I’m not a fan of the PL and although I am proud we are playing at the top level I never, ever watch PL football other than Burnley, I have no real interest who wins it and the money aspect of it makes me sick. I wouldn’t lose a moments sleep if we weren’t in it other than the pride of playing at the top level. The events of today with Bury and the deafening silence (as of this morning at least) of all PL clubs with regard to it shows just how much the PL has become removed from real football.

Sorry to sound bitter but...well, I am, I want Dyche to start taking things other than the damn PL seriously. I don’t know how old you are Coyote but I remember when FA cup 3rd round day was one of the most anticipated games of the year and my first ever game at the Turf was v Derby County in the late 60s in that very round - and I was hooked.for life. Some of our biggest attendances were in the cup. The magic has been slaughtered on the alter of PL and it’s money and football is the worse for it.

houseboy wrote:No it isn’t bud. People pay good money to see games and don’t (or shouldn’t) expect to watch the reserves. I get a little tired of all this ‘PL at all costs’ rubbish. We are never going to win it and survival is all we can expect, I would genuinely take relegation if we could win the FA cup and get another trophy. I’m not a fan of the PL and although I am proud we are playing at the top level I never, ever watch PL football other than Burnley, I have no real interest who wins it and the money aspect of it makes me sick. I wouldn’t lose a moments sleep if we weren’t in it other than the pride of playing at the top level. The events of today with Bury and the deafening silence (as of this morning at least) of all PL clubs with regard to it shows just how much the PL has become removed from real football.

Sorry to sound bitter but...well, I am, I want Dyche to start taking things other than the damn PL seriously. I don’t know how old you are Coyote but I remember when FA cup 3rd round day was one of the most anticipated games of the year and my first ever game at the Turf was v Derby County in the late 60s in that very round - and I was hooked.for life. Some of our biggest attendances were in the cup. The magic has been slaughtered on the alter of PL and it’s money and football is the worse for it.

I do understand, but still disagree. For me, having watched us in the lowest league, the premier division is paramount.
Seeing us get here again was fantastic. We can't change the rules, I detest much of what is happening, but watching some of our performances against the best teams in the land is incredible. The media hype up the lesser competitions, but they have become meaningless.
I do get it that paying fans want cup success, but we are not equipped to fight on all fronts sadly.

Here’s how I see it:

Playing “cr@p” teams should be easy. You’ve got better athletes than them (your players should have more stamina), and you’ve got better technicians than them. So make use of it. Keep the ball on the ground, make use of the better passing range and vision of the players you’ve got - don’t let them drag you down to their level, which is what they want to do.

Dyche’s problem is, he does all the work for these teams. We launch it at the big lumps they’ve got at the back and are surprised when they win the physical battle. We bypass the central midfield despite having vastly better players in there. We don’t make life hard for these teams whatsoever, we just let them head balls away, we don’t work their midfielders with more intelligent passing moves and possession football, we don’t tire them out at all. This isn’t the Premier League: we aren’t playing a side that expects to turn up and outplay us.

After Sunderland took the lead, it was basically game over. We hoofed it up, they tidied up, and occasionally countered. It was that easy.

I blame sports science. It's been proved now that players can't play 2 games a week and it's a stretch to play 38 games a season. Whereas twenty, thirty, fifty years ago the players didn't know they couldn't do it, so they did it.

It's like the bumble bee. Scientific theory says it can't fly, but the bee doesn't understand science, so it flies anyway.

dsr wrote:I blame sports science. It's been proved now that players can't play 2 games a week and it's a stretch to play 38 games a season. Whereas twenty, thirty, fifty years ago the players didn't know they couldn't do it, so they did it.

It's like the bumble bee. Scientific theory says it can't fly, but the bee doesn't understand science, so it flies anyway.

We made 10 changes. This was the first start anyone bar McNeil made this week.

SGr wrote:We made 10 changes. This was the first start anyone bar McNeil made this week.

That's the point. We had to make 10 changes because sports science decrees that players are overworked. Before sports science was invented, the first XI could have played.

houseboy wrote:Listen, Dyche is the man for the job, he has worked wonders at our club and long may he remain but...someone, somewhere needs to tell him to man up for cup games. His record is atrocious, his attitude to them stinks. League cup, FA cup and last season Europe, he just isn’t interested in going for something we could actually win. A cup run could relieve us of the monotonous grind of PL survival but hey why would we want to win something that might get us into Europe again, heaven forbid that should happen. As fans we should vote with our feet and stop hoping against hope that Dyche will actually put out a team to win a cup match. Don’t buy tickets and stay away from cup games, maybe playing at home in front of an empty stadium might, MIGHT, cause a re-think, but I doubt it.

Seriously did anyone on this site actually believe we were going to progress tonight? Tonight there were good players out there, most of whom can and have stepped seamlessly into the first team and been fine, but to sling a load of players who have done nothing more than train together into a game and expect them to perform is asking far too much. 10 changes for a cup game is unacceptable on any level and is an insult to fans paying hard earned money.

DYCHE IS TO BLAME TONIGHT..

They made 8 changes, yet somehow managed to embarrass a team two leagues above them. The 10 changes are irrelevant - it can’t be bad for us, yet good for them at the same time

players, losing at home to a reserve league one team shows a complete lack of professionalism. I doubt Dyche sends a team out to lose.

Both are at fault, Dyche clearly does not work on anything other than direct defensive football tactics and the players basically played like a bunch of strangers.

It’s clearly no coincidence that Dyche’s record in the cup games are abysmal.

Certainly can't blame SD. The players selected should have comfortably seen off a 3rd tier team. I think he'll have learned a lot more about the character of some of them chosen tonight. The majority showed little appetite in wanting to pull pull a match around after going 3-1 down. I didn't see many leaders out there.

Dyche wants competition for places but you can't carry on denying players a chance until cup games. No wonder they aren't motivated, someone could have scored a hatrick and still not make the team.

You'd be better off making one or two changes and staying in the competition for a few games to get those players more game time than you are fielding more in a single game.

No manager has ever succeeded in cups having a completely different team. Some rotation has to happen both in League and cup.

Fergie got it right with Man UTD. He knew which players raised their games for big matches and saved them. He rotated his good players to keep constant quality and familiarity in the team.

We performed exactly how we have before in cup games and they always have one thing in common. A bunch of players stuffed together for the first time in a competitive game not having a clue how to play together.

There's plenty of games (like Saturday) where we expect to get nothing. You'll far more likely see players motivated if you give one or two a start then than you will throwing everyone into the deep end together.

Roll on the fa cup which will be the second time these lads play (and fail) together.

What's even worse is hearing the constant crap about tight competition and everyone having a role and being capable, if he truly thought that he'd give more chances to some of the fringe players.

Right_winger wrote:Dyche clearly does not work on anything other than direct defensive football tactics.

Laughable garbage.

ashtonlongsider wrote:Certainly can't blame SD. The players selected should have comfortably seen off a 3rd tier team. I think he'll have learned a lot more about the character of some of them chosen tonight. The majority showed little appetite in wanting to pull pull a match around after going 3-1 down. I didn't see many leaders out there.

Can't argue with that. There was a thread where posters picked their team for the match and a lot pretty much picked the same team as SD so we can't have a go at him when he does what we want. The wholesale changes were obviously too much and he'd have been better off blooding 4/5 bench players and keeping the basis of the 1st eleven for stability. I think last nights game was more about giving bench players a chance rather than winning and it backfired, just hope SD learnt a few things about the players involved which made it worthwhile.

If last night's team had played a few straight competitive games together they would have more than likely won the game.

Right_winger wrote:Both are at fault, Dyche clearly does not work on anything other than direct defensive football tactics and the players basically played like a bunch of strangers.

Even for this message board that is absolute f****** ********.

NRC wrote:They made 8 changes, yet somehow managed to embarrass a team two leagues above them. The 10 changes are irrelevant - it can’t be bad for us, yet good for them at the same time

I take your point. I wouldn't be too unhappy if he made 3 or 4 changes as I can understand for instance the need to prevent Barnes getting injured and Hart in goal is not a bad change but our goalkeeper and our entire back line were changed and that is integral to the way we play. Whether we like it or not and despite having played with a bit more flair so far this season we are a defensive side, and I don't mind that at all, defence is an art in itself and we have got it pretty spot on, but then along comes a cup game and the whole side, apart from one player, is changed. That states pretty openly that:
A. Dyche really doesn't give a sh!t about anything other than the PL.
B. Fans are being ripped off because they pay hard earned to watch their team and it isn't their team that they see.
C. We can pretty much say bye bye to any chance of actually winning anything (if you assume we aren't going to win the PL anytime soon).
D. The fans don't seem to matter.

I love Sean Dyche and what he has done for our club and any criticism of him by me has to be taken in context (I certainly don't want him to leave). But no-one is perfect and to me his major and unacceptable failing is his attitude to cup games and Europe last season. I look at it this way, do I want to watch a team that is 'surviving' every year in the PL just to keep the millions rolling in or, given that football is a SPORT (a fact that seems lost on many now) do I want to watch and support a club who will make every effort to do there best in EVERY competition? I personally without any hesitation whatsoever want the latter. I have said it before and I mean it totally, I would take relegation if we could win the FA cup, because that would make us WINNERS not SURVIVORS.

[quote="houseboy"] but then along comes a cup game and the whole side, apart from one player, is changed. That states pretty openly that:
A. Dyche really doesn't give a sh!t about anything other than the PL.
B. Fans are being ripped off because they pay hard earned to watch their team and it isn't their team that they see.
C. We can pretty much say bye bye to any chance of actually winning anything (if you assume we aren't going to win the PL anytime soon).
D. The fans don't seem to matter.




You know we play Liverpool on Saturday yes ? Before the kick off last night we were all looking at that second XI and thinking how strong it looked. I would have made 11 changes not 10.

I am not heart broke about the result but more bothered that half the team put out last night must be on north of 30 thousand pounds a week and whimpered out
Hart, Gibson, Hendrick, Drinkwater, McNeil, Lennon, Rodriguez.

We should on paper have won at a canter its disappointing to say the least,their's been a lot made that we have now got the strongest squad in depth we ever had.

Why they didn't sustain and combine to win against a team that skill wise should be oceans apart and also made as many changes as we did but combined much better is beyond me.
We have an excellent manager and one of the best to have graced this club but you can't say that about the cup competitions, what do we look at for this reason I've heard he went to Reading Festival and did not do any training with the team until Tuesday, got to say i would right that off as an excuse but theirs something not right and to say he simply not interested doesn't bode well either.

The names what you have mention above have represented the countries at different levels we lost to Sunderland 2 nd team bye the way you decide if we take the cup games seriously

Problem is our fringe players know that the starting XI is pretty much a closed shop. Must be demoralising for them to know there's a good chance they won't see any action for months.

jrgbfc wrote:Problem is our fringe players know that the starting XI is pretty much a closed shop. Must be demoralising for them to know there's a good chance they won't see any action for months.

And yet they get a golden chance to stake a claim and blow it spectacularly.
Demoralised my arse.

Stalbansclaret wrote:

So you would make all those changes in a game we had every chance of winning and moving forward to save players for a game we are extremely unlikely to win? Where exactly is the logic in that (other than yet again putting the PL first, even in a game we will probably lose - given Liverpool's current form). If we had played our best team last night (with maybe one or two changes to avoid injury to key players (Barnes?) they should still be fit enough (barring injuries) to play again at weekend. They are extremely well paid, highly trained and well looked after sportsmen, two games of football per week should not be beyond them, if it is perhaps they should try a proper job.

Dyche does need to give his head a shake. We went 1-3 down and were struggling. So he takes Lennon off (I haven't been a fan of right leg only Aaron but fair play he had a good game last night), moves McNeil into a more central midfield role and as a result we lose all creativity on the wings and spend the rest of the game lumping the ball forward. No surprise the Sunderland Centre Backs couldn't believe their luck! Bonkers.

We lost and I am most dischuffed but time to move on , forget it and lets have the Turf rocking . if it is we will stuff the Scousers

The likes of Hart, Bardsley, Lennon and Hendrick are all in the final year of contracts and are highly unlikely to be here next season. Add to that Gibson, Drinkwater and Vydra who I'm sure will be out of here the first chance they get is it any wonder we got that disinterested, shambles of a performance?

You can't blame the players. Making ten changes is inherently a gamble and even if they're talented individuals you can't rely on fluency or defensive organisation. The problem with Dyche in cup competitions is that when you play the same eleven in the league every week the second string obviously won't be up to speed when they come in.